Instead of Subclassing, wouldn't a Class Change Token be better for everyone?

AlexWaff · May 18

Personally, I am extremely confused by this whole thing, and don't know how to feel about it.

Ultimately, my biggest reasons to want class change tokens for so many years was always because I felt that ESO as a game really encouraged completion on a single character. Historically, Zones, Skill lines, Skill Points, Skyshards, all kinds of unlocks, Achievements, and most everything was tied to a single character. So having "alts" always felt like you're asked to invest way too much time redoing things you already did. I used to think giving me the option to class change to try all the new classes was the better solution.

They chose a different approach. Since, we've gotten a lot of "account wide" optimization. Achievements, many unlocks and such were made available through all characters. I realized they'll never do class change, but in their favour, they focused on making the game better suited to having multiple characters. The wardrobe system with appearances and set item bonus unlocks are also account wide, and the only thing that's really restrictive still is obviously zone and content completion - WHICH is fair, and there's value in redoing it all for the CP experience, and maybe some different choices for different RP characters. I think the only big bad glaring issue we have left would be the crafting styles. They're still character-specific, even ones purchased with money. I'd go as far as to say that ANYTHING purchased with crowns or given from expansion bundles should be account bound - that means cross-region, too. You should absolutely not be "cheated" out of your crown purchases and such if you end up starting over on the other region due to life reasons.

Now, this "multiclassing" feature confuses me. Because I was convinced that with them digging their heels on the "no class changes, but more alt friendliness" stance, they were doing a good job at cementing the differences between classes, while giving you incentive to play more than one of them. Stuff like the special class sets in the Archives for example, are an interesting approach to give you more reason to play your "class" rather than run the same weapon and faction skills regardless of the character.

But this? This is a full 180. I think they might've decided their efforts to make classes interesting and unique were all in vain, and despite everything most people continued to just rarely if ever use class abilities with the meta focusing so hard on things outside them.
Still, odd. I'd have gone further in establishing the class identity and power, encouraging using the class itself even more. But this is the equivalent of giving up "We couldn't make classes interesting or fun, so we're just removing all class distinction and letting people to play whatever ends up the big ultra meta loadout".

We're gonna end up seeing some unholy abomination of an "ideal" subclass, and what's worse, by the sounds of it, STILL YET not everybody will be able to do it.
Let's have a hypothetical - the ideal meta build turns out to borrow one skill line from Arcanist, one line from nightblade, and one line from templar - or any combination really. Since from as I understand it - you can still only have 3 total class skill lines, and you have to always keep 1 of your "original" class, that means simply that when the "3 ideal meta class lines" are found, anybody that's not one of those 3 classes is locked out of running it, since they need to have one of their own class.

Erickson9610 · May 18

AlexWaff wrote: »

Let's have a hypothetical - the ideal meta build turns out to borrow one skill line from Arcanist, one line from nightblade, and one line from templar - or any combination really. Since from as I understand it - you can still only have 3 total class skill lines, and you have to always keep 1 of your "original" class, that means simply that when the "3 ideal meta class lines" are found, anybody that's not one of those 3 classes is locked out of running it, since they need to have one of their own class.

That's why we should have Subclassing and Class Change Tokens.

AlexWaff · May 18

Erickson9610 wrote: »

AlexWaff wrote: »

Let's have a hypothetical - the ideal meta build turns out to borrow one skill line from Arcanist, one line from nightblade, and one line from templar - or any combination really. Since from as I understand it - you can still only have 3 total class skill lines, and you have to always keep 1 of your "original" class, that means simply that when the "3 ideal meta class lines" are found, anybody that's not one of those 3 classes is locked out of running it, since they need to have one of their own class.

That's why we should have Subclassing and Class Change Tokens.

lmfao! I mean, yeah, but then we're REALLY giving up on class identity entirely. I feel like at this point, having NEITHER, or at most having very limited class change with a huge cooldown (so that people can do it if they really regret their class choice or really want their main to be one of the new ones, but not use it every month for meta).

But I don't like what the multiclassing will mean. We'll see, they still might make it really restrictive somehow, and make it worse than running a pure class, but who knows.

I think what they REALLY should be doing, instead, is to augment existing classes. Why, they're clearing running out of steam. New classes very other expansion, in between we maybe get a profession, or a new faction skill line, or "spell crafting", it's all shifting power away from your class.

Imagine if the next expansion instead had a "Class Evolution" or "Ascension" or along those lines. You get to do a bunch of class-specific questlines and unlock total overhauls of abilities, or entire skill lines, somehow. Maybe an entire now class specific, extra cool skill line for each class? Things like that! Both overhauling some of the less desirable class abilities in a fun way (rather than just patches), AND adding some new power to your class specifically.

I still think they might be able to do this next time around. It would actually be a great way to shift power back - why yes you can multiclass now, but these new shiny, super cool CLASS SPECIFIC storylines that unlock evolutions of your class? Those don't get multiclassed, those would be only for your true class.

Erickson9610 · May 18

AlexWaff wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

AlexWaff wrote: »

Let's have a hypothetical - the ideal meta build turns out to borrow one skill line from Arcanist, one line from nightblade, and one line from templar - or any combination really. Since from as I understand it - you can still only have 3 total class skill lines, and you have to always keep 1 of your "original" class, that means simply that when the "3 ideal meta class lines" are found, anybody that's not one of those 3 classes is locked out of running it, since they need to have one of their own class.

That's why we should have Subclassing and Class Change Tokens.

lmfao! I mean, yeah, but then we're REALLY giving up on class identity entirely. I feel like at this point, having NEITHER, or at most having very limited class change with a huge cooldown (so that people can do it if they really regret their class choice or really want their main to be one of the new ones, but not use it every month for meta).

But I don't like what the multiclassing will mean. We'll see, they still might make it really restrictive somehow, and make it worse than running a pure class, but who knows.

I think what they REALLY should be doing, instead, is to augment existing classes. Why, they're clearing running out of steam. New classes very other expansion, in between we maybe get a profession, or a new faction skill line, or "spell crafting", it's all shifting power away from your class.

Imagine if the next expansion instead had a "Class Evolution" or "Ascension" or along those lines. You get to do a bunch of class-specific questlines and unlock total overhauls of abilities, or entire skill lines, somehow. Maybe an entire now class specific, extra cool skill line for each class? Things like that! Both overhauling some of the less desirable class abilities in a fun way (rather than just patches), AND adding some new power to your class specifically.

I still think they might be able to do this next time around. It would actually be a great way to shift power back - why yes you can multiclass now, but these new shiny, super cool CLASS SPECIFIC storylines that unlock evolutions of your class? Those don't get multiclassed, those would be only for your true class.

Class abilities shouldn't be more powerful than any other ability, though. Players should still feel comfortable making builds utilizing abilities from non-Class skill lines (like Weapon, World, Assault/Support, and Guild skills) without feeling pressured to always include some Class abilities.

Ideally, a "Class" in ESO is just a type of magic (i.e., Restoration, Destruction, Conjuration, Illusion, etc) that a player can opt in or out of using — not something that's required of them.

AlexWaff · May 18

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Ideally, a "Class" in ESO is just a type of magic (i.e., Restoration, Destruction, Conjuration, Illusion, etc) that a player can opt in or out of using — not something that's required of them.

While I agree, I also think classes have been powercrept utterly. I don't mean they should make class abilities mandatory (although they usually in some degree are, to make use of class line passives at the very least), I think they should do... something about the "meta" changing so drastically. As somebody who played most when having pretty strict stamina/magicka builds, either staff/staff and magicka morphs at range, or daggers/bows/greatswords with mostly weapon abilities and a few stam morphs, I used to find it really cool when they'd come out with skill lines like the Psijic Order. You could take a few of those to spruce up and base your existing build around, or even incorporate the entire skill line, and for a short while it was even meta to be using the psijic spammable with it's different, more unique way to animation cancel (well, really, it only reversed the order since it augmented your next attack, instead of being a separate attack, but it was still novel).

As a returning player, I feel utterly lost when I look online and the meta builds are some weird daggers + stave or greatsword with a bunch of weapon abilities and crafted spell abilities and almost nothing class-based.. on a MAGICKA build??? The world's gone topsy-turvy, and I feel unwelcome. I'm still running my old more pure magblade with staves and drain spam, maybe some psijic stuff if I feel adventurous... and we'll see when I hit a wall that forces me to adapt.

But what my point is, I think they absolutely should have a chapter in which the big new feature is "sprucing up" the base classes. If for no other reason but that many "outside" options will secondary skill lines, spell crafting, and the meta is such disarray, maybe bringing focus to the core and making it more fun to play will be a good step. The class fantasy should always be important, and a system around doing special quests for your class, and improving said class, could be a fun chance of pace.

KekwLord3000 · May 18

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

Whoever doesn't want to subclass they are free to do so, ZOS doesn't point a gun to your head and forces you to abandon your chars.

ZOS doesn't, but some raid leaders do

I mean if you want to play in raid be ready to have meta setups, don't want to adept to the other 11 people? well just run craglorn pugs what can I say.

KekwLord3000 · May 18

DenverRalphy wrote: »

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

SerasWhip wrote: »

The ones who want to experience a new class with their main would be satisfied. Be it for RP reasons or to breathe a new life into overland content without starting from scratch.

The ones who worry about homogenization, possible nerfs, or other imbalance issues would have nothing to worry about. Nothing for them would change after all.

The ones who want to experiment with different combinations of skill lines would be disappointed however. But personally I don't see why people would choose anything other than the specific most viable skills of any class. So I don't see much experimentation in the long run anyway.

Thoughts?

Whoever doesn't want to subclass they are free to do so, ZOS doesn't point a gun to your head and forces you to abandon your chars.

Nah, instead they stopped just short of that by ensuring that player who don't subclass take a hit for it by reducing their effectiveness. Pure class performance is being lowered to accommodate subclassing.

and? the whole idea to nerf certain skills/passives was so that subclassing won't break the game.
If you decided to play pure class well it's up to you, also what nerfs exactly? please in detail show me a parse of a live class and a PTS class, worst nerf is less than 5% not game ending nerfs and we had much worse nerfs in U35.

KekwLord3000 · May 18

AlexWaff wrote: »

Personally, I am extremely confused by this whole thing, and don't know how to feel about it.

Ultimately, my biggest reasons to want class change tokens for so many years was always because I felt that ESO as a game really encouraged completion on a single character. Historically, Zones, Skill lines, Skill Points, Skyshards, all kinds of unlocks, Achievements, and most everything was tied to a single character. So having "alts" always felt like you're asked to invest way too much time redoing things you already did. I used to think giving me the option to class change to try all the new classes was the better solution.

They chose a different approach. Since, we've gotten a lot of "account wide" optimization. Achievements, many unlocks and such were made available through all characters. I realized they'll never do class change, but in their favour, they focused on making the game better suited to having multiple characters. The wardrobe system with appearances and set item bonus unlocks are also account wide, and the only thing that's really restrictive still is obviously zone and content completion - WHICH is fair, and there's value in redoing it all for the CP experience, and maybe some different choices for different RP characters. I think the only big bad glaring issue we have left would be the crafting styles. They're still character-specific, even ones purchased with money. I'd go as far as to say that ANYTHING purchased with crowns or given from expansion bundles should be account bound - that means cross-region, too. You should absolutely not be "cheated" out of your crown purchases and such if you end up starting over on the other region due to life reasons.

Now, this "multiclassing" feature confuses me. Because I was convinced that with them digging their heels on the "no class changes, but more alt friendliness" stance, they were doing a good job at cementing the differences between classes, while giving you incentive to play more than one of them. Stuff like the special class sets in the Archives for example, are an interesting approach to give you more reason to play your "class" rather than run the same weapon and faction skills regardless of the character.

But this? This is a full 180. I think they might've decided their efforts to make classes interesting and unique were all in vain, and despite everything most people continued to just rarely if ever use class abilities with the meta focusing so hard on things outside them.
Still, odd. I'd have gone further in establishing the class identity and power, encouraging using the class itself even more. But this is the equivalent of giving up "We couldn't make classes interesting or fun, so we're just removing all class distinction and letting people to play whatever ends up the big ultra meta loadout".

We're gonna end up seeing some unholy abomination of an "ideal" subclass, and what's worse, by the sounds of it, STILL YET not everybody will be able to do it.
Let's have a hypothetical - the ideal meta build turns out to borrow one skill line from Arcanist, one line from nightblade, and one line from templar - or any combination really. Since from as I understand it - you can still only have 3 total class skill lines, and you have to always keep 1 of your "original" class, that means simply that when the "3 ideal meta class lines" are found, anybody that's not one of those 3 classes is locked out of running it, since they need to have one of their own class.

There is no "unholy abomination of an "ideal" subclass", there are different sub-classing preferences depending on the trial and group comp, as well as pvp.
Saying XYZ sub class is the best for everything is just not true, it's something causal that have no clue about the meta chant to validate their argument, oh look everyone gonna run XYZ game is cooked cause ppl copy paste builds. BRUHHHHH

mdjessup4906 · May 19

We absolutely should still get class change, especially if they insist on keeping every class mastery except arc and maybe necro useless for dps (afaik from my endgame discord browsing).

I will be the first to say I adore my og arc, but I would like to still be able to use my other characters as high end dps.

Or, they could just let us change the 3rd skill line and the class mastery and solve the issue in every way but name. That would be the ideal, really.