Instead of Subclassing, wouldn't a Class Change Token be better for everyone?

SerasWhip

The ones who want to experience a new class with their main would be satisfied. Be it for RP reasons or to breathe a new life into overland content without starting from scratch.

The ones who worry about homogenization, possible nerfs, or other imbalance issues would have nothing to worry about. Nothing for them would change after all.

The ones who want to experiment with different combinations of skill lines would be disappointed however. But personally I don't see why people would choose anything other than the specific most viable skills of any class. So I don't see much experimentation in the long run anyway.

Thoughts?

Cooperharley

I'd rather have this personally than be asked to pay for a class change token.

META chasers will still have a best build. There's no class identity really as is in PvE minus arcanist beams lol. Everyone is running the same DW/2H build largely. I'm excited to try out the different combos personally from a solo perspective and then I'll use whatever the best option is for vet trials and all that.

LunaFlora

i am happier with Subclassing, especially because it's free.

tomofhyrule

The character's class is the one immutable thing about this game because of how characters and classes were originally coded, and they've said several times that that was the reason they couldn't do a Class Change token. Sure, given enough time they may have been able to figure something out, but this is the direction they chose.

Personally, I'd have rather had Class Change tokens because that wouldn't have brought these balance issues along with it. I'd never have used them myself, but I realize that they were a popular request.

I guess we'll see how this works out.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

On the plus side subclassing gives us a chance that class change tokens will be a thing, if they can remove 2 skill lines then what it removing one more?

virtus753

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

On the plus side subclassing gives us a chance that class change tokens will be a thing, if they can remove 2 skill lines then what it removing one more?

Removing all the class lines wouldn’t address the matter that class mastery and class sets go by your original class. It would be an issue to have an Arc with 3 non-Arc skill lines still generating crux with class mastery on banner and limited to the Arc sets instead of any of the others from IA. None of that would actually be usable on an Arc with no Arc lines.

We are already set to run into a similar issue with Templar class mastery, where to get the full benefit you need to run one particular line from Templar, which is neither the one that gives jabs/spear shards nor the one that gives beam. It’s a line that has only one damaging skill. That skill can be difficult to use effectively (especially in mobile fights) as it suffers from several of the pain points they said they wanted to address with the standards they laid out for AoE ground dots with U35 — standards that they ignored with this skill in favor of actually exacerbating its pain points instead. So Templar dps looking to subclass get the choice of keeping a line that is intentionally being kept below game-wide standards or settling for only 2/3rds of their class mastery power. That’s a catch that isn’t conducive to the freedom of choice they seem to want to make available with subclassing. Maybe they’ll address it in time, but maybe they’ll take the same approach they did with Ritual.

If they’re going to do a class change token, they need to do it properly taking those things into account. Being stuck with useless sets and an unusable or severely hindered class mastery are big catches standing in the way of that right now.

SerasWhip

Cooperharley wrote: »

I'd rather have this personally than be asked to pay for a class change token.

META chasers will still have a best build. There's no class identity really as is in PvE minus arcanist beams lol. Everyone is running the same DW/2H build largely. I'm excited to try out the different combos personally from a solo perspective and then I'll use whatever the best option is for vet trials and all that.

To be fair, I am fine with subclassing, but if some skills will be nerfed when subclassed I would rather have the option to change the class altogether. Or maybe we could have both subclassing as a free feature and a class change token as a paid option.

DenverRalphy

During the livestream, they brought up that players were asking for the ability to change classes and that subclassing was their answer to it. Whether an outright class change token would have been better, or Subclassing, that's debatable. I know what I'd prefer, but it is what it is.

tsaescishoeshiner

These seem like separate things. And because of the limitations on subclassing, as well as Class Mastery scripts and Archive class-based sets, both subclassing and class change tokens could exist.

kargen27

I don't like the idea of class change. To me it shortcuts actually playing the game. There are many different ways to level a new character so you can get used to that character and how it will play as you level the skills.

bmnoble

What would that add for those that already have one or more of every class already?

I prefer how they are doing sub classing as a base game update, instead of a another token in the crown store.

If I want to play one of the other existing classes I will log into an alt of that class, for me the value of sub classing is swapping skill lines I don't like for ones I prefer to use even if they aren't the best in slot option.

ADarklore

A class change token would just continue the EXACT SAME mess and reason I left in the first place... absolutely BOREDOM with the limited abilities. I have 18 alts, I have played every class... and after years of playing... it's just the same same same class skills, weapon skills, etc... and no way to change it. That's why I get excited every time a new class was added, something to relieve the boredom... until that became the same over and over and over again. OP, you seem to assume that most players only have ONE main, but many of us have alts of every class... and what I said above is why many of us are excited about subclassing. It helps to alleviate the boredom of classes... and opens up so many opportunities to use ONE character, but never get bored because we can always switch class lines to do something new for awhile.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

I want a class change token for this reason.

Maybe I want my main to be a Necromancer or an Arcanist.

I don't want to make a "new" Necromancer because that "new" Necromancer is not my main, they have not done the quests, they don't have the crafting knowledge, they do not have the crafting motifs learned, they do not have the alliance rank, they do not have 10 years of "History"

My main is one of the oldest consistent Vampires in ESO, they became one back when this game was young before it was even on console back when Veteran Ranks were still a thing, a "new" Vampire would not be one of the oldest Vampires in ESO now would they, how does making a new character solve this problem?

Sub-Classing is not sufficient for this, If I want to be a Necromancer than I want to be a Full-Necromancer, not a one-third Necromancer.

SpiritofESO

SerasWhip wrote: »

The ones who want to experience a new class with their main would be satisfied. Be it for RP reasons or to breathe a new life into overland content without starting from scratch.

Thoughts?

Yes. Wait, let me think this over a bit. Hmm....

YES!

Of course I would be satisfied with a Class Change Token!

Vulkunne

Yes.

They have a token for everything else anyways so. That's like walking into an Ice Cream place and they don't have Strawberry. Got everything else though but for some odd reason the owner and everyone else is against Strawberry flavor.

The real reason this will be problematic is balance. For example, let's say I have (3) buses going to different places and used for different reasons. One is a prison bus; another is an inner-city bus and the third is a nice luxury bus. Then you tell people that they can now choose any bus to go anywhere they wish. What's going to happen? Everyone will choose the best option and then what happens, that's right in the end there is no more luxury because people by nature will abuse things as much as they can for as long as they can get away with it. So, the nice luxury buses will get trashed, they'll be breaking down etc. and the end result is no more luxury, everyone must settle for less and thus, the whole idea of choice is ultimately revealed to be a deceptive illusion.

And I believe you can already see this happening with some of the nerfs going down; more have got to be on the way. They have to be. Because the whole way of measuring diversity between classes has to be thrown out and a new approach adopted due to the fact that in a way, after this classes will no longer exist, respectfully. Think about it. You're basically just choosing a starting point and now, not unlike a Mr Potato Head, or a set of legos, you're in effect making a custom class now. So how do they determine how authentic this is? Any hopes that people have for right now need to be put on hold because you can't merge things as they are now because as many others have no doubt said by this time, one combination, or not even, but a few combinations will outshine everything else. It's not just about classes losing identity, in the long run its about the end of classes and a big struggle to determine some way, any way, to keep people believing that these 'fragments' of once classes are legit. But they can't be because you can't do something like this without nerfs.

DK has a burst heal, alright. Warden has a burst heal, fine. Necro has a burst heal, great. NB has a burst heal kind of, ok. Right now, all of these are distinct because they are not pulled from the same concept. Going forward, how do we look at this and say, oh it's this burst heal, it's that, it's something else? No, they're not going to care about that. And you say, well uh DK has the bestest burst heal. Ok great, so it has to be nerfed. See, it has to be broken otherwise no one cares about the other options. Furthermore, after the breaking is done, how do you make all of these things distinct? Think they're going to care about that. I doubt it. It's just a burst heal on a report in a row with the others. It's all the same now, little bit different but no different. In any contest a win requires someone else to lose but, in this game, now they're going to have to try and convince us that no one loses no matter what they choose. Good luck with that. Good luck figuring that out.

Class change token was a better idea by far and none. It was a mistake to argue against it and that just... never made any sense to me anyways. We already have tokens for everything else, but not this? Now the classes will pay the price. Seems like it would have been so much easier just to give us our damn token. Who cares if we have to pay for it. Who cares. Support the game. Stop looking for a handout and getting everything for free. I'd rather pay a little more and walk away with peace of mind. Judging by some of these responses on here, that's the one thing we're not getting. So whatever side of this you chose, we're all going to have live with it. And that sucks but you know what, you can't blame me or others who saw the light and tried. We tried and I dunno, I'll speak my mind here and then maybe doing so will also bring me peace.

RealLoveBVB

Instead of Subclassing, wouldn't a Class Change Token be better for everyone?

Of course it would have been! That's what players have actually asked for, not subclassing.

Players asked for apples, but we got pineapples instead. ZOS claiming that everyone asked for subclasses instead is hilarious.

kargen27 wrote: »

I don't like the idea of class change. To me it shortcuts actually playing the game. There are many different ways to level a new character so you can get used to that character and how it will play as you level the skills.

It should shortcut the play time, as many don't have the time to invest several 100 hours into different classes. So you could save that time by investing a tiny bit of money.

Meiox

SerasWhip wrote: »

The ones who want to experience a new class with their main would be satisfied. Be it for RP reasons or to breathe a new life into overland content without starting from scratch.

The ones who worry about homogenization, possible nerfs, or other imbalance issues would have nothing to worry about. Nothing for them would change after all.

The ones who want to experiment with different combinations of skill lines would be disappointed however. But personally I don't see why people would choose anything other than the specific most viable skills of any class. So I don't see much experimentation in the long run anyway.

Thoughts?

There is no such thing that is better for EVERYONE !

mrreow

DenverRalphy wrote: »

During the livestream, they brought up that players were asking for the ability to change classes and that subclassing was their answer to it. Whether an outright class change token would have been better, or Subclassing, that's debatable. I know what I'd prefer, but it is what it is.

This is just insane, what? They are redoing the whole pillar of the game after 10 years, risking that existing players will quit, just because some people cannot bother to level an alt?

I like change and evolving systems but please do the justice to it all, it isn’t just an elaborate class change token workaround right? Right?

KekwLord3000

SerasWhip wrote: »

The ones who want to experience a new class with their main would be satisfied. Be it for RP reasons or to breathe a new life into overland content without starting from scratch.

The ones who worry about homogenization, possible nerfs, or other imbalance issues would have nothing to worry about. Nothing for them would change after all.

The ones who want to experiment with different combinations of skill lines would be disappointed however. But personally I don't see why people would choose anything other than the specific most viable skills of any class. So I don't see much experimentation in the long run anyway.

Thoughts?

eh those are 2 different things, class change tokens are for lazy/busy/hermits that don't want to level up a new char in an MMO (It's an mmo you are supposed to level multiple chars).
And subclass let's us have crazy combos , which increase the power extremely for us. Whoever doesn't want to subclass they are free to do so, ZOS doesn't point a gun to your head and forces you to abandon your chars.

redlink1979

I'd rather have the token system

LesserCircle

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

SerasWhip wrote: »

The ones who want to experience a new class with their main would be satisfied. Be it for RP reasons or to breathe a new life into overland content without starting from scratch.

The ones who worry about homogenization, possible nerfs, or other imbalance issues would have nothing to worry about. Nothing for them would change after all.

The ones who want to experiment with different combinations of skill lines would be disappointed however. But personally I don't see why people would choose anything other than the specific most viable skills of any class. So I don't see much experimentation in the long run anyway.

Thoughts?

eh those are 2 different things, class change tokens are for lazy/busy/hermits that don't want to level up a new char in an MMO (It's an mmo you are supposed to level multiple chars).
And subclass let's us have crazy combos , which increase the power extremely for us. Whoever doesn't want to subclass they are free to do so, ZOS doesn't point a gun to your head and forces you to abandon your chars.

This is insulting for me, I'm not lazy or too busy or a hermit, I have every class maxed out but my very old main character is a class I don't enjoy anymore, I just want a class change token to change that. I'm attached to that character and there's basically no other solution, subclassing is alright but it's not really it.

RealLoveBVB

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

Whoever doesn't want to subclass they are free to do so, ZOS doesn't point a gun to your head and forces you to abandon your chars.

ZOS doesn't, but some raid leaders do

DenverRalphy

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

SerasWhip wrote: »

The ones who want to experience a new class with their main would be satisfied. Be it for RP reasons or to breathe a new life into overland content without starting from scratch.

The ones who worry about homogenization, possible nerfs, or other imbalance issues would have nothing to worry about. Nothing for them would change after all.

The ones who want to experiment with different combinations of skill lines would be disappointed however. But personally I don't see why people would choose anything other than the specific most viable skills of any class. So I don't see much experimentation in the long run anyway.

Thoughts?

Whoever doesn't want to subclass they are free to do so, ZOS doesn't point a gun to your head and forces you to abandon your chars.

Nah, instead they stopped just short of that by ensuring that player who don't subclass take a hit for it by reducing their effectiveness. Pure class performance is being lowered to accommodate subclassing.

KiltMaster

I'm highly skeptical of subclassing. I've also been an advocate for class change tokens. But you can't exactly take back an idea they've already put out. We'll just have to try to adapt and make the most of it !

Anumaril

I'm much happier with subclassing. It lets me use abilities from more than one class simultaneously rather than switching between them regularly at the cost of several thousand Crowns.

Tandor

Given a free choice I'd rather have had class specialisms, so that say a Templar at a certain level could choose between specialising as a Paladin, Cleric, or Warrior with a new skill line to match. However, that would have been too much of a strain on both the developers and the database, and we're told the class structure is built so deep into the game's architecture that class change tokens weren't possible (or at least viable).

On that basis I suppose subclassing is all we're left with, but just how many players will pursue it and how many will do so across multiple characters will be interesting to see. It may attract some new or returning players, but we're already seeing that through the accompanying nerfs to pure classes as well as the part it plays in the changing direction of the game generally it's also going to result in some existing players moving on.

kargen27

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I want a class change token for this reason.

Maybe I want my main to be a Necromancer or an Arcanist.

I don't want to make a "new" Necromancer because that "new" Necromancer is not my main, they have not done the quests, they don't have the crafting knowledge, they do not have the crafting motifs learned, they do not have the alliance rank, they do not have 10 years of "History"

My main is one of the oldest consistent Vampires in ESO, they became one back when this game was young before it was even on console back when Veteran Ranks were still a thing, a "new" Vampire would not be one of the oldest Vampires in ESO now would they, how does making a new character solve this problem?

Sub-Classing is not sufficient for this, If I want to be a Necromancer than I want to be a Full-Necromancer, not a one-third Necromancer.

The class your main is now is as much a part of that characters identity as being a Vampire. You change the class you change the essence of your character so the Vampire thing wouldn't matter anyway.

Warhawke_80

Classes were a Mistake in ESO...

Elder Scrolls games aren't limited by classes what you pick up is what you become..the devs are simply correcting it.

Daoin

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Classes were a Mistake in ESO...

Elder Scrolls games aren't limited by classes what you pick up is what you become..the devs are simply correcting it.

there are making mistakes that dont get a correction for 11 years, there are slip ups, and trip ups along a way, there are misguided attempts at doing a certain thing and then there is update 46

Daoin

yes please last minute change of plan and a class change token not that i would even ever use it or infact that it would fully rejuvenate my eso vibe after even the thought of update 46, my long term plan for eso and update 46 ? daily log in reward and couple trials a week at best ! with class change token ? normal game time. i cant see my trials being sub-class pressure groups but if they somehow become that just gives me more reason to slice a couple more hours of the eso week times

Vonnegut2506

A class change token would be worthless for me as I have at least 2 max of each class and 3 of most. I am looking forward to subclassing a lot, so I am not in the group of everyone.