Fake tanks And healers, vet dlc. Please no.

Orbital78 · May 15

Estin wrote: »

When graven deep was the pledge, I ran it like 6 times on vet through the dungeon finder and only had 2 successful runs. The other 4 runs failed because the tank died to mechanics and let the boss loose. A couple of tanks from those failed runs did mention they were new and wanted to learn mechanics to get better at tanking. I would agree with you that the dungeon finder is absolutely not where they should be if they want to learn tanking, especially in a vet dungeon they've never been in before while being sub 600 CP. I'd wager the response to your question is that they don't want to commit to a guild and want to use randos for their learning purposes since it's easier to do, no strings attached.

Graven deep is one that can go okay until the last boss, I kind of avoid running that one now unless the tank is 1500+ and seems to know what they are doing.

I've filled in for guild mates that were stuck on the last boss a couple times on vet, I'm rusty but it doesn't seem overly difficult unless the dps is really low and no one wants to back the healer up on orbs for soulsplit.

I also notice that in the newer dungeons people haven't figured out the heal absorbs, making it a lot harder on the healer. Addons make it seem kind of a trivial to me, I think it gives a pinkish dodge bar for those.

Daoin wrote: »

block potential in-game for sounding/smelling like a fake heal and tank supporter, and repeating the same thing for too many years

*shrug* seems irrelevant to me. I do tank, heal, and dps in hybrid roles quite often, not so much tanking in vet (though I can solo most base vet hardmodes). I haven't seen many issues unless people are expecting to do pug hardmodes, which doesn't interest me to begin with most of the time for newer dlcs. So have at it, if doing 30-40% of the damage and keeping the group alive is a travesty.

Daoin · May 15

Orbital78 wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

When graven deep was the pledge, I ran it like 6 times on vet through the dungeon finder and only had 2 successful runs. The other 4 runs failed because the tank died to mechanics and let the boss loose. A couple of tanks from those failed runs did mention they were new and wanted to learn mechanics to get better at tanking. I would agree with you that the dungeon finder is absolutely not where they should be if they want to learn tanking, especially in a vet dungeon they've never been in before while being sub 600 CP. I'd wager the response to your question is that they don't want to commit to a guild and want to use randos for their learning purposes since it's easier to do, no strings attached.

Graven deep is one that can go okay until the last boss, I kind of avoid running that one now unless the tank is 1500+ and seems to know what they are doing.

I've filled in for guild mates that were stuck on the last boss a couple times on vet, I'm rusty but it doesn't seem overly difficult unless the dps is really low and no one wants to back the healer up on orbs for soulsplit.

I also notice that in the newer dungeons people haven't figured out the heal absorbs, making it a lot harder on the healer. Addons make it seem kind of a trivial to me, I think it gives a pinkish dodge bar for those.

Daoin wrote: »

block potential in-game for sounding/smelling like a fake heal and tank supporter, and repeating the same thing for too many years

*shrug* seems irrelevant to me. I do tank, heal, and dps in hybrid roles quote often, not so much tanking in vet. I haven't seen many issues unless people are expecting to do pug hardmodes, which doesn't interest me to begin with most of the time for newer dlcs. So have at it, if doing 30-40% of the damage and keeping the group alive is a travesty.

block list dont git rid only silences, and your silly bait is not going to interest me vets again, meaning if i block you with eso having such a low playerbase its almost certain if you que and i do i would have to put up with you again anyway or take a needless cooldown for leaving group

Orbital78 · May 15

Daoin wrote: »

block list dont git rid only silences, and your silly bait is not going to interest me vets again, meaning if i block you with eso having such a low playerbase its almost certain if you que and i doo i wouuld have to put up with you again anyway or take a needless cooldown for leaving group

I'm not baiting anyone, you seem to be the combative one calling names and such. I could care less, I don't bother to tell people I ignore most of the time. I do the same, a simple /gl is much more enjoyable then enduring the not fun.

Daoin · May 15

Orbital78 wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

block list dont git rid only silences, and your silly bait is not going to interest me vets again, meaning if i block you with eso having such a low playerbase its almost certain if you que and i doo i wouuld have to put up with you again anyway or take a needless cooldown for leaving group

I'm not baiting anyone, you seem to be the combative one calling names and such. I could care less, I don't bother to tell people I ignore most of the time. I do the same, a simple /gl is much more enjoyable then enduring the not fun.

no combat needed i cant stand the vet random dailies anymore so i stopped altogether, and yoou sort of feel when the end is the end after logging in and leaving 4 groups of the same team on different chars and then another 5 for other reasons from the start and getting 0 dailies done over 9 toons in one go, guess in the end for the randoms were just not random enough either. so in the end to top if off, no, blocking is just not enough

Desiato · May 15

If the player can hold agro without dying, they are tanking. If the player can roll hots and spot heal to keep the group alive, they are healing.

Again, it amazes me how some players have such rigid standards for tanks and healers, yet none for dps.

Daoin · May 15

Desiato wrote: »

If the player can hold agro without dying, they are tanking. If the player can roll hots and spot heal to keep the group alive, they are healing.

Again, it amazes me how some players have such rigid standards for tanks and healers, yet none for dps.

it amazes me you cant talk about what some groups really turn into, when actually not agreeing to something from so-called end gamers and can-do-it allers

because i'll tell ya if i was just baiter myself and call-outer on forum i would have saved some of the screenshots of some vet group chat before i laughed and let go

Desiato · May 15

Daoin wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

If the player can hold agro without dying, they are tanking. If the player can roll hots and spot heal to keep the group alive, they are healing.

Again, it amazes me how some players have such rigid standards for tanks and healers, yet none for dps.

it amazes me you cant talk about what some groups really turn into

I have no idea what you mean by that. Please elaborate!

Orbital78 · May 15

Desiato wrote: »

Again, it amazes me how some players have such rigid standards for tanks and healers, yet none for dps.

Probably part of the reason people don't do dungeons anymore, at least without preform. The rewards are not even that great for random dungeons, and filling a stickerbook doesn't take forever. Heck I have a full trial stickerbook at this point, until U46 anyways.

Daoin · May 15

Desiato wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

If the player can hold agro without dying, they are tanking. If the player can roll hots and spot heal to keep the group alive, they are healing.

Again, it amazes me how some players have such rigid standards for tanks and healers, yet none for dps.

it amazes me you cant talk about what some groups really turn into

I have no idea what you mean by that. Please elaborate!

if you say so, wink,wink

im sure you could spend time to do a bit of research on toxic groups in this forum dating back many years for dungeon groups actually having never encountered any yourself, this being the 1 million mark for posts of this kind they should not be hard to find too, or you will just have to trust me that blocking is not enough in the end. even i'll admit to getting 2 yellow cards from the refs for getting involved over the years dispite being involved in much more, thats why blocking is no good if a person needs to see whats going on to have to step in

Dixa · May 15

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The dps que is 20 min bcs everyone and their mom plays a dps, if you want lower que times than maybe you should take one for the team and learn to tank instead of complaining about other people skipping the que

Him(OP) sitting out the queue makes him a victim, not the problem. The problem is players skipping the line when they should not be able to! OP has already demonstrated they were willing to sit out the 20 min queue, only to be a victim of someone else skipping the line. Causing a bad experience for the OP or another 20 min queue.

This(fake role/speedrunner) should just simply not be possible to do! Stop making excuses for these types of players, they do not care about the community or other player's time at all. And should not be playing an MMO.

zos's horrible dungeon design making people not want to take it because of how many unexplained one shot mechanics there are, and the gatekeeping community expecting a new player trying to tank to already know the dungeon layout by heart and all mechanics like they are 2nd nature even though that tank said at the start they ahve never done the dungeon before...

make sure you place the blame where it belongs. there is zero reason for dlc dungeons to be as hard as they are. that's a difficulty level that should be exclusive to vet trials.

the only way you gonna get more legit tanks is to give people a reason to roll up a tank and play the role. posts like this dont make that happen.

Vulkunne · May 15

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The dps que is 20 min bcs everyone and their mom plays a dps, if you want lower que times than maybe you should take one for the team and learn to tank instead of complaining about other people skipping the que

Him(OP) sitting out the queue makes him a victim, not the problem. The problem is players skipping the line when they should not be able to! OP has already demonstrated they were willing to sit out the 20 min queue, only to be a victim of someone else skipping the line. Causing a bad experience for the OP or another 20 min queue.

This(fake role/speedrunner) should just simply not be possible to do! Stop making excuses for these types of players, they do not care about the community or other player's time at all. And should not be playing an MMO.

I've been with this game for a very long time and have participated as Tank role exclusively for most of that time.

My experience has been that I think because of (we'll call it) 'staffing issues' in this game, we can't always get the type of group that we want. This is kin to saying, the traditional group isn't always a luxury, and, in many instances, it really doesn't have to be get thru the content. That said, a Traditional group requires Traditional roles, gear and the attitude/mindset/maturity to boot. This is something learned over time, and it is not fair to have such a lofty expectation that everyone can produce this or even should. People come into their own when they are ready, or when the situation brings this out in them but either way you can't code to force this. Without making this post too long and wordy, in many instances it doesn't take overwhelming 'commitment' to a role to get thru the run, it takes people dedicated to completing the run itself and not necessarily the role. In other words, they have to want it, they have to want to be there and want to win.

I see these posts from time to time about fake this and that, but there is such a thing as faking it until you make it and so I think given the design of the game it would be a bad idea to start forcing things and start forcing players to play a certain way. Forcing people like me to be a tank who can't do damage for instance, would be over the line, I think the decisions made by our groups are no one else's business as long as it's within the boundaries of TOS and we're not running exploits. I'm not trying to be mean -however- sometimes group problems are better off left up to the group itself and so I can't help if I'm forced to comply with what others demand, and them not even being there but we're forced to play by their rules

?

That said, I'm sorrowful for those souls out there who are having trouble with other players, yet many times to get thru ... I want to say probably most veteran content; we usually ran into trouble and found ways to deal with it and win the day without punishing everyone. Punishing everyone for the mistakes of a few is just as wrong as people being deceptive about their talents. This brings us to things like holding people accountable (collectively), as well as brainstorming, sometimes moving talent around between roles. Rarely one might have to go leave and one of their guildies would step up instead. Many times, I know personally that I carried multitudes of scrubs thru all kinds of content (just because I'm a nice guy and all).

You see, we all chose to deal with our problems, ourselves, and this enabled us to get thru most runs ok, it wasn't perfect, but we did it, because that's all we had was that night and that opportunity. However, to close this out, I will say this, leadership is all about solving problems. You can have your filter to kill everyone's talent, or you can be a leader and learn to deal with things, however this requires a more mature mindset because this means that sometimes you have to take responsibility for someone else. It is a selfless personality that makes a better leader than someone armed with a fist full of iron ready to meet out wrath for experiencing an issue that could have been solved by showing a little humility and perseverance - even if - it wasn't yo fault.

Daoin · May 16

just look at the roles and see big pictures indicating tank/healer/dd pick one and do it, unless you want to be spotted from a mile away when not being pulled into a pre made group, where then its a 3 to 1 thing and impossible to police really, in my eperience alot of groups are pre made and usually for the purpose of just bait to some nasty goal. or they will be saying forever that everything they do is for newcomers when actually the population never gets anywhere overall. making also the thousands of proper vet randoms some have done over the years a complete waste of time. other than that dont really care what full 4 person premades get upto, and anyone says otherwise are lying through thier teeth. but...with sub classing which have to intention of joining sort of makes the old ways a moot point, atleast people can have more shields to protect themselves. atleast now though people can leave in peace after fighting the good foght all those years with bit of a clearer conscience, and no that does not mean everyone is going to be expecting a tank to be wearing the latest fashion gear with a sword and board on thier first vet visit

ImmortalCX · May 16

Vulkunne wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The dps que is 20 min bcs everyone and their mom plays a dps, if you want lower que times than maybe you should take one for the team and learn to tank instead of complaining about other people skipping the que

Him(OP) sitting out the queue makes him a victim, not the problem. The problem is players skipping the line when they should not be able to! OP has already demonstrated they were willing to sit out the 20 min queue, only to be a victim of someone else skipping the line. Causing a bad experience for the OP or another 20 min queue.

This(fake role/speedrunner) should just simply not be possible to do! Stop making excuses for these types of players, they do not care about the community or other player's time at all. And should not be playing an MMO.

I've been with this game for a very long time and have participated as Tank role exclusively for most of that time.

My experience has been that I think because of (we'll call it) 'staffing issues' in this game, we can't always get the type of group that we want. This is kin to saying, the traditional group isn't always a luxury, and, in many instances, it really doesn't have to be get thru the content. That said, a Traditional group requires Traditional roles, gear and the attitude/mindset/maturity to boot. This is something learned over time, and it is not fair to have such a lofty expectation that everyone can produce this or even should. People come into their own when they are ready, or when the situation brings this out in them but either way you can't code to force this. Without making this post too long and wordy, in many instances it doesn't take overwhelming 'commitment' to a role to get thru the run, it takes people dedicated to completing the run itself and not necessarily the role. In other words, they have to want it, they have to want to be there and want to win.

I see these posts from time to time about fake this and that, but there is such a thing as faking it until you make it and so I think given the design of the game it would be a bad idea to start forcing things and start forcing players to play a certain way. Forcing people like me to be a tank who can't do damage for instance, would be over the line, I think the decisions made by our groups are no one else's business as long as it's within the boundaries of TOS and we're not running exploits. I'm not trying to be mean -however- sometimes group problems are better off left up to the group itself and so I can't help if I'm forced to comply with what others demand, and them not even being there but we're forced to play by their rules ?

That said, I'm sorrowful for those souls out there who are having trouble with other players, yet many times to get thru ... I want to say probably most veteran content; we usually ran into trouble and found ways to deal with it and win the day without punishing everyone. Punishing everyone for the mistakes of a few is just as wrong as people being deceptive about their talents. This brings us to things like holding people accountable (collectively), as well as brainstorming, sometimes moving talent around between roles. Rarely one might have to go leave and one of their guildies would step up instead. Many times, I know personally that I carried multitudes of scrubs thru all kinds of content (just because I'm a nice guy and all).

You see, we all chose to deal with our problems, ourselves, and this enabled us to get thru most runs ok, it wasn't perfect, but we did it, because that's all we had was that night and that opportunity. However, to close this out, I will say this, leadership is all about solving problems. You can have your filter to kill everyone's talent, or you can be a leader and learn to deal with things, however this requires a more mature mindset because this means that sometimes you have to take responsibility for someone else. It is a selfless personality that makes a better leader than someone armed with a fist full of iron ready to meet out wrath for experiencing an issue that could have been solved by showing a little humility and perseverance - even if - it wasn't yo fault.

If you tank all the time, you dont know what its like.

I wait for 30 plus min as a dps to play, the tank is a dps who slotted a taunt. He doesnt keep aggro, he doesnt buff.

The boss health bar is barely moving without tank buffs even though the fake tank is also a dps. Which means you have to deal with twice as many mechanics, and in the mean time, running for your life. The fake tank is doing more dps because the real dps have to keep rezzing each other. And the healer is overworked keeping the tank up and cant spare as many heals. ( i suspect these pairings are usually guildies who dgaf about the dps. If a dps quits another will pop in a min so they down nt care.)

Its an incredibly selfish and toxic playstyle. They are treating the dps who just waited 30 minutes like we are NPCs.

Aliniel · May 16

I think the issue is not specific to Vet. DLC dungeons, but game overall. ZOS has built a reputation for catering to extremely casual, low skill players. These players then expect everything to be easy and just walk into Vet. DLC dungeon just "for fun" or "to learn".

There's nothing wrong with being a casual player but walking into Vet. DLC dungeon unprepared creates an extremely negative experience for those who came prepared. This frustration will eventually cause the more "hardcore" players to simply leave.

Look at WoW which has recently celebrated 20 years of existence and is still going strong. M+. Mythic Raiding. This is what keeps people around. Not lackluster story content. Not mindless grinding of repeatable quests. Every casual player can move towards hardcore if he likes something. There's just not much reason to like Vet. content in ESO.

In ESO's dungeons you have:

Walking simulator difficulty (Base Normal)
There's one mechanic in the entire dungeon that can (maybe) kill you unless you dodge it (Base Vet.)
You can solo it but it's faster in group (DLC Normal)
HOW DARE YOU MAKE FUN OF ME (DLC Vet.)

Now, when someone queues for Vet. Random and gets DLC Vet... yikes. I think if you queue at random you can still be grouped with people doing specific dungeon for the pledges and this is where you get the fake tanks, healers and bad dps.

ZOS needs to create more levels of engagement for players. Normal vs Vet and Base vs DLC matrix just doesn't work. All normals should be equal, all Vet. should be equal. And two levels just don't cut it. Why do you think WoW has 4 levels of difficulty?

But we are already dealing with a dwindling population. Queue times are 20+ min long for a DPS looking to do pledges (and don't start on "find a guild" - I have 5 trading guilds with 300+ people online and no one ever joins for Vet. Pledges). Additional difficulties would make it even worse as it would split the player base into more groups.

One player named one thread on forum perfectly (although on different, but similar, topic): "An endless cycle of self destruction." And at its centre - ZOS (because they design the game systems and have been failing at it miserably for a decade).

Daoin · May 16

just play your role

preevious · May 16

That's a really old debate ..
I usually go like this :

Fake tanks and healers in vet : systematically reported, even in base game vet. I know that base game vets are doables even with 4 DPS, but I refuse to condone cheating. If you want to run with 3-4 DPS, do so in a group that you assemble yourself and where everyone agrees. If you queue, queue your rôle, or get reported.

Bad dps : I gently tell them they might no be as ready to do vet content as they think they are and tell them to get info on how to do good damage. I mean, the game zone are trivially easy, and it's easy to feel powerfull when you are not.

mrreow · May 16

Well to be honest there is nothing in the game that suggests you cannot click that find group button for whatever reason. It encourages you to do it no matter what.

You go through some nice chill questing content and story and there is no indication that the group content is some kind of whole different beast or basically a different game altogether.

Can you really be surprised that if you play this other unspoken game within a game you will get players that have no clue about it or simply ignore its existence and its unspoken rules?

On the contrary I think everyone should hop into vet dungeons with your overland RP builds as this is what the game wants and expects from you. If that makes it unplayable that’s when the fixes will roll out but if you don’t do it it will never become a priority.

It is an obligation as a player to play in the way developers intend you to play. To fix something you have to first break it. Otherwise team will just think it is working great.

Actions not words is what truly drives player feedback. If it gets broken enough it will get fixed. If it’s just in perpetual state of dissaray makeshift pve then it won’t.

Vulkunne · May 16

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The dps que is 20 min bcs everyone and their mom plays a dps, if you want lower que times than maybe you should take one for the team and learn to tank instead of complaining about other people skipping the que

Him(OP) sitting out the queue makes him a victim, not the problem. The problem is players skipping the line when they should not be able to! OP has already demonstrated they were willing to sit out the 20 min queue, only to be a victim of someone else skipping the line. Causing a bad experience for the OP or another 20 min queue.

This(fake role/speedrunner) should just simply not be possible to do! Stop making excuses for these types of players, they do not care about the community or other player's time at all. And should not be playing an MMO.

I've been with this game for a very long time and have participated as Tank role exclusively for most of that time.

My experience has been that I think because of (we'll call it) 'staffing issues' in this game, we can't always get the type of group that we want. This is kin to saying, the traditional group isn't always a luxury, and, in many instances, it really doesn't have to be get thru the content. That said, a Traditional group requires Traditional roles, gear and the attitude/mindset/maturity to boot. This is something learned over time, and it is not fair to have such a lofty expectation that everyone can produce this or even should. People come into their own when they are ready, or when the situation brings this out in them but either way you can't code to force this. Without making this post too long and wordy, in many instances it doesn't take overwhelming 'commitment' to a role to get thru the run, it takes people dedicated to completing the run itself and not necessarily the role. In other words, they have to want it, they have to want to be there and want to win.

I see these posts from time to time about fake this and that, but there is such a thing as faking it until you make it and so I think given the design of the game it would be a bad idea to start forcing things and start forcing players to play a certain way. Forcing people like me to be a tank who can't do damage for instance, would be over the line, I think the decisions made by our groups are no one else's business as long as it's within the boundaries of TOS and we're not running exploits. I'm not trying to be mean -however- sometimes group problems are better off left up to the group itself and so I can't help if I'm forced to comply with what others demand, and them not even being there but we're forced to play by their rules ?

That said, I'm sorrowful for those souls out there who are having trouble with other players, yet many times to get thru ... I want to say probably most veteran content; we usually ran into trouble and found ways to deal with it and win the day without punishing everyone. Punishing everyone for the mistakes of a few is just as wrong as people being deceptive about their talents. This brings us to things like holding people accountable (collectively), as well as brainstorming, sometimes moving talent around between roles. Rarely one might have to go leave and one of their guildies would step up instead. Many times, I know personally that I carried multitudes of scrubs thru all kinds of content (just because I'm a nice guy and all).

You see, we all chose to deal with our problems, ourselves, and this enabled us to get thru most runs ok, it wasn't perfect, but we did it, because that's all we had was that night and that opportunity. However, to close this out, I will say this, leadership is all about solving problems. You can have your filter to kill everyone's talent, or you can be a leader and learn to deal with things, however this requires a more mature mindset because this means that sometimes you have to take responsibility for someone else. It is a selfless personality that makes a better leader than someone armed with a fist full of iron ready to meet out wrath for experiencing an issue that could have been solved by showing a little humility and perseverance - even if - it wasn't yo fault.

If you tank all the time, you dont know what its like.

I wait for 30 plus min as a dps to play, the tank is a dps who slotted a taunt. He doesnt keep aggro, he doesnt buff.

The boss health bar is barely moving without tank buffs even though the fake tank is also a dps. Which means you have to deal with twice as many mechanics, and in the mean time, running for your life. The fake tank is doing more dps because the real dps have to keep rezzing each other. And the healer is overworked keeping the tank up and cant spare as many heals. ( i suspect these pairings are usually guildies who dgaf about the dps. If a dps quits another will pop in a min so they down nt care.)

Its an incredibly selfish and toxic playstyle. They are treating the dps who just waited 30 minutes like we are NPCs.

Hi ImmortalCX, thank you for your response.

Like I said, I understand there are people out there misrepresenting themselves. I can empathize with your situation as well but as I alluded to in my post, there are times when we all are dealt a rough hand. Being a Tank, does not make you immune to role complications within your group. In this particular instance, you are grieved due to someone else abusing the Tank role. In my particular instance, I've had people abuse the DPS role and more so, the Healer role.

My first encounter with a fake healer was down in the Blood Forge dungeon with the giant minotaur who is standing on the island there. I kept wondering why our heals was so bad and come to find out the Argonian Healer we had was just wasting time. Yes. She didn't care she just wanted to ride thru the place on our backs. We dropped her like a flat tire and made it thru the run relatively quickly afterwards.

And that's my point, I guess. It's a message based on experience in dealing with things like this, it's a point made that's sharp but not edgy. It's an enterprise like no other, neither limited by the mistakes of others nor derailed because of the abuse of a couple. It's probably not what people want to hear, but if it's possible I just think it's better to keep your options open. That is the advantage of helming a Tank role though.

I mean nothing sideways when I say this, however DPS come and go frequently but a good tank is not expendable (generally speaking). And that was one thing I did right was turned Tanking, in its various forms into a science and dropped the DPS approach. Though you may not agree with it, the cost of doing business as a Tank right now is at an all-time low. Being a Tank is the center of the game now; other group roles are more replaceable.

Perhaps more of you out there might try Tanking? If nothing else, it would be a change of pace, and you would be learning something new. Think of it as an adaptation.

Daoin · May 16

Vulkunne wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The dps que is 20 min bcs everyone and their mom plays a dps, if you want lower que times than maybe you should take one for the team and learn to tank instead of complaining about other people skipping the que

Him(OP) sitting out the queue makes him a victim, not the problem. The problem is players skipping the line when they should not be able to! OP has already demonstrated they were willing to sit out the 20 min queue, only to be a victim of someone else skipping the line. Causing a bad experience for the OP or another 20 min queue.

This(fake role/speedrunner) should just simply not be possible to do! Stop making excuses for these types of players, they do not care about the community or other player's time at all. And should not be playing an MMO.

I've been with this game for a very long time and have participated as Tank role exclusively for most of that time.

My experience has been that I think because of (we'll call it) 'staffing issues' in this game, we can't always get the type of group that we want. This is kin to saying, the traditional group isn't always a luxury, and, in many instances, it really doesn't have to be get thru the content. That said, a Traditional group requires Traditional roles, gear and the attitude/mindset/maturity to boot. This is something learned over time, and it is not fair to have such a lofty expectation that everyone can produce this or even should. People come into their own when they are ready, or when the situation brings this out in them but either way you can't code to force this. Without making this post too long and wordy, in many instances it doesn't take overwhelming 'commitment' to a role to get thru the run, it takes people dedicated to completing the run itself and not necessarily the role. In other words, they have to want it, they have to want to be there and want to win.

I see these posts from time to time about fake this and that, but there is such a thing as faking it until you make it and so I think given the design of the game it would be a bad idea to start forcing things and start forcing players to play a certain way. Forcing people like me to be a tank who can't do damage for instance, would be over the line, I think the decisions made by our groups are no one else's business as long as it's within the boundaries of TOS and we're not running exploits. I'm not trying to be mean -however- sometimes group problems are better off left up to the group itself and so I can't help if I'm forced to comply with what others demand, and them not even being there but we're forced to play by their rules ?

That said, I'm sorrowful for those souls out there who are having trouble with other players, yet many times to get thru ... I want to say probably most veteran content; we usually ran into trouble and found ways to deal with it and win the day without punishing everyone. Punishing everyone for the mistakes of a few is just as wrong as people being deceptive about their talents. This brings us to things like holding people accountable (collectively), as well as brainstorming, sometimes moving talent around between roles. Rarely one might have to go leave and one of their guildies would step up instead. Many times, I know personally that I carried multitudes of scrubs thru all kinds of content (just because I'm a nice guy and all).

You see, we all chose to deal with our problems, ourselves, and this enabled us to get thru most runs ok, it wasn't perfect, but we did it, because that's all we had was that night and that opportunity. However, to close this out, I will say this, leadership is all about solving problems. You can have your filter to kill everyone's talent, or you can be a leader and learn to deal with things, however this requires a more mature mindset because this means that sometimes you have to take responsibility for someone else. It is a selfless personality that makes a better leader than someone armed with a fist full of iron ready to meet out wrath for experiencing an issue that could have been solved by showing a little humility and perseverance - even if - it wasn't yo fault.

If you tank all the time, you dont know what its like.

I wait for 30 plus min as a dps to play, the tank is a dps who slotted a taunt. He doesnt keep aggro, he doesnt buff.

The boss health bar is barely moving without tank buffs even though the fake tank is also a dps. Which means you have to deal with twice as many mechanics, and in the mean time, running for your life. The fake tank is doing more dps because the real dps have to keep rezzing each other. And the healer is overworked keeping the tank up and cant spare as many heals. ( i suspect these pairings are usually guildies who dgaf about the dps. If a dps quits another will pop in a min so they down nt care.)

Its an incredibly selfish and toxic playstyle. They are treating the dps who just waited 30 minutes like we are NPCs.

Hi ImmortalCX, thank you for your response.

Like I said, I understand there are people out there misrepresenting themselves. I can empathize with your situation as well but as I alluded to in my post, there are times when we all are dealt a rough hand. Being a Tank, does not make you immune to role complications within your group. In this particular instance, you are grieved due to someone else abusing the Tank role. In my particular instance, I've had people abuse the DPS role and more so, the Healer role.

My first encounter with a fake healer was down in the Blood Forge dungeon with the giant minotaur who is standing on the island there. I kept wondering why our heals was so bad and come to find out the Argonian Healer we had was just wasting time. Yes. She didn't care she just wanted to ride thru the place on our backs. We dropped her like a flat tire and made it thru the run relatively quickly afterwards.

And that's my point, I guess. It's a message based on experience in dealing with things like this, it's a point made that's sharp but not edgy. It's an enterprise like no other, neither limited by the mistakes of others nor derailed because of the abuse of a couple. It's probably not what people want to hear, but if it's possible I just think it's better to keep your options open. That is the advantage of helming a Tank role though.

I mean nothing sideways when I say this, however DPS come and go frequently but a good tank is not expendable (generally speaking). And that was one thing I did right was turned Tanking, in its various forms into a science and dropped the DPS approach. Though you may not agree with it, the cost of doing business as a Tank right now is at an all-time low. Being a Tank is the center of the game now; other group roles are more replaceable.

Perhaps more of you out there might try Tanking? If nothing else, it would be a change of pace, and you would be learning something new. Think of it as an adaptation.

well conidering how easy your group made it through and how much you thoroughly enjoyed kicking your healer from the squad nobody can fault you for the way you play, for me i would have thought before kicking as a last resort saved the honour for the despicable and wanted to go on regardless aslong as they not throwing out anything toxic at me or the group in the past, unless they specifically ask for a kick to save on penalty cooldown

Vulkunne · May 16

Daoin wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The dps que is 20 min bcs everyone and their mom plays a dps, if you want lower que times than maybe you should take one for the team and learn to tank instead of complaining about other people skipping the que

Him(OP) sitting out the queue makes him a victim, not the problem. The problem is players skipping the line when they should not be able to! OP has already demonstrated they were willing to sit out the 20 min queue, only to be a victim of someone else skipping the line. Causing a bad experience for the OP or another 20 min queue.

This(fake role/speedrunner) should just simply not be possible to do! Stop making excuses for these types of players, they do not care about the community or other player's time at all. And should not be playing an MMO.

I've been with this game for a very long time and have participated as Tank role exclusively for most of that time.

My experience has been that I think because of (we'll call it) 'staffing issues' in this game, we can't always get the type of group that we want. This is kin to saying, the traditional group isn't always a luxury, and, in many instances, it really doesn't have to be get thru the content. That said, a Traditional group requires Traditional roles, gear and the attitude/mindset/maturity to boot. This is something learned over time, and it is not fair to have such a lofty expectation that everyone can produce this or even should. People come into their own when they are ready, or when the situation brings this out in them but either way you can't code to force this. Without making this post too long and wordy, in many instances it doesn't take overwhelming 'commitment' to a role to get thru the run, it takes people dedicated to completing the run itself and not necessarily the role. In other words, they have to want it, they have to want to be there and want to win.

I see these posts from time to time about fake this and that, but there is such a thing as faking it until you make it and so I think given the design of the game it would be a bad idea to start forcing things and start forcing players to play a certain way. Forcing people like me to be a tank who can't do damage for instance, would be over the line, I think the decisions made by our groups are no one else's business as long as it's within the boundaries of TOS and we're not running exploits. I'm not trying to be mean -however- sometimes group problems are better off left up to the group itself and so I can't help if I'm forced to comply with what others demand, and them not even being there but we're forced to play by their rules ?

That said, I'm sorrowful for those souls out there who are having trouble with other players, yet many times to get thru ... I want to say probably most veteran content; we usually ran into trouble and found ways to deal with it and win the day without punishing everyone. Punishing everyone for the mistakes of a few is just as wrong as people being deceptive about their talents. This brings us to things like holding people accountable (collectively), as well as brainstorming, sometimes moving talent around between roles. Rarely one might have to go leave and one of their guildies would step up instead. Many times, I know personally that I carried multitudes of scrubs thru all kinds of content (just because I'm a nice guy and all).

You see, we all chose to deal with our problems, ourselves, and this enabled us to get thru most runs ok, it wasn't perfect, but we did it, because that's all we had was that night and that opportunity. However, to close this out, I will say this, leadership is all about solving problems. You can have your filter to kill everyone's talent, or you can be a leader and learn to deal with things, however this requires a more mature mindset because this means that sometimes you have to take responsibility for someone else. It is a selfless personality that makes a better leader than someone armed with a fist full of iron ready to meet out wrath for experiencing an issue that could have been solved by showing a little humility and perseverance - even if - it wasn't yo fault.

If you tank all the time, you dont know what its like.

I wait for 30 plus min as a dps to play, the tank is a dps who slotted a taunt. He doesnt keep aggro, he doesnt buff.

The boss health bar is barely moving without tank buffs even though the fake tank is also a dps. Which means you have to deal with twice as many mechanics, and in the mean time, running for your life. The fake tank is doing more dps because the real dps have to keep rezzing each other. And the healer is overworked keeping the tank up and cant spare as many heals. ( i suspect these pairings are usually guildies who dgaf about the dps. If a dps quits another will pop in a min so they down nt care.)

Its an incredibly selfish and toxic playstyle. They are treating the dps who just waited 30 minutes like we are NPCs.

Hi ImmortalCX, thank you for your response.

Like I said, I understand there are people out there misrepresenting themselves. I can empathize with your situation as well but as I alluded to in my post, there are times when we all are dealt a rough hand. Being a Tank, does not make you immune to role complications within your group. In this particular instance, you are grieved due to someone else abusing the Tank role. In my particular instance, I've had people abuse the DPS role and more so, the Healer role.

My first encounter with a fake healer was down in the Blood Forge dungeon with the giant minotaur who is standing on the island there. I kept wondering why our heals was so bad and come to find out the Argonian Healer we had was just wasting time. Yes. She didn't care she just wanted to ride thru the place on our backs. We dropped her like a flat tire and made it thru the run relatively quickly afterwards.

And that's my point, I guess. It's a message based on experience in dealing with things like this, it's a point made that's sharp but not edgy. It's an enterprise like no other, neither limited by the mistakes of others nor derailed because of the abuse of a couple. It's probably not what people want to hear, but if it's possible I just think it's better to keep your options open. That is the advantage of helming a Tank role though.

I mean nothing sideways when I say this, however DPS come and go frequently but a good tank is not expendable (generally speaking). And that was one thing I did right was turned Tanking, in its various forms into a science and dropped the DPS approach. Though you may not agree with it, the cost of doing business as a Tank right now is at an all-time low. Being a Tank is the center of the game now; other group roles are more replaceable.

Perhaps more of you out there might try Tanking? If nothing else, it would be a change of pace, and you would be learning something new. Think of it as an adaptation.

well conidering how easy your group made it through and how much you thoroughly enjoyed kicking your healer from the squad nobody can fault you for the way you play, for me i would have thought before kicking as a last resort saved for the despicable and wanted to go on regardless in the past

Just a sec. Please show me where I indicated that any of us enjoyed kicking her? If anything, we suffered because she didn't care. I know the post was kind of lengthy, but details are everything. Furthermore, that boss is one of the last bosses in the dungeon so a thoughtful person could easily understand that if she was not doing her job then the group suffered up until that point. Again, a thoughtful person could understand that the reason she was booted is because we could not get past that boss. Do you see what I am saying here? She was booted because she left us with no choice other than to quit. It was to remove her, or everyone had to give up. And that's not fair.

This is why I run tank exclusively these days, so I have some control over things because while I am not perfect, 99% of the time I am fair about things. There's such a term in battlefield medicine called Triage. Sometimes everyone won't make it and you have to decide who is more likely to survive and who is not. Maturity is sorely lacking in society as a whole. And it is a mistake to keep expecting authorities to fix every problem when you yourself have the power to fix that issue, even if its not nice. Being a leader is scarcely an easy thing. In this scenario, she was the problem, she brought the problem, and it was my job to sort it out.

And I do not apologize to anyone for it. Next time come prepared, next time let us know sooner if you need help or if there is a skill issue so we can possibly adjust. It doesn't mean you would have to leave, maybe the group could have made changes so the expectation for heals provided would not be so heavy from one person. We've done things like this before. It is not fair to blame me or my group for what someone else failed to do and the contempt that they showed for us and the time given that could not be so easily replaced. This resulted in the group, not even me, I mean it was me (lol) (but really others in the group were asking what was going on before I took notice), this resulted in us being forced to remove her.

Daoin · May 16

Vulkunne wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The dps que is 20 min bcs everyone and their mom plays a dps, if you want lower que times than maybe you should take one for the team and learn to tank instead of complaining about other people skipping the que

Him(OP) sitting out the queue makes him a victim, not the problem. The problem is players skipping the line when they should not be able to! OP has already demonstrated they were willing to sit out the 20 min queue, only to be a victim of someone else skipping the line. Causing a bad experience for the OP or another 20 min queue.

This(fake role/speedrunner) should just simply not be possible to do! Stop making excuses for these types of players, they do not care about the community or other player's time at all. And should not be playing an MMO.

I've been with this game for a very long time and have participated as Tank role exclusively for most of that time.

My experience has been that I think because of (we'll call it) 'staffing issues' in this game, we can't always get the type of group that we want. This is kin to saying, the traditional group isn't always a luxury, and, in many instances, it really doesn't have to be get thru the content. That said, a Traditional group requires Traditional roles, gear and the attitude/mindset/maturity to boot. This is something learned over time, and it is not fair to have such a lofty expectation that everyone can produce this or even should. People come into their own when they are ready, or when the situation brings this out in them but either way you can't code to force this. Without making this post too long and wordy, in many instances it doesn't take overwhelming 'commitment' to a role to get thru the run, it takes people dedicated to completing the run itself and not necessarily the role. In other words, they have to want it, they have to want to be there and want to win.

I see these posts from time to time about fake this and that, but there is such a thing as faking it until you make it and so I think given the design of the game it would be a bad idea to start forcing things and start forcing players to play a certain way. Forcing people like me to be a tank who can't do damage for instance, would be over the line, I think the decisions made by our groups are no one else's business as long as it's within the boundaries of TOS and we're not running exploits. I'm not trying to be mean -however- sometimes group problems are better off left up to the group itself and so I can't help if I'm forced to comply with what others demand, and them not even being there but we're forced to play by their rules ?

That said, I'm sorrowful for those souls out there who are having trouble with other players, yet many times to get thru ... I want to say probably most veteran content; we usually ran into trouble and found ways to deal with it and win the day without punishing everyone. Punishing everyone for the mistakes of a few is just as wrong as people being deceptive about their talents. This brings us to things like holding people accountable (collectively), as well as brainstorming, sometimes moving talent around between roles. Rarely one might have to go leave and one of their guildies would step up instead. Many times, I know personally that I carried multitudes of scrubs thru all kinds of content (just because I'm a nice guy and all).

You see, we all chose to deal with our problems, ourselves, and this enabled us to get thru most runs ok, it wasn't perfect, but we did it, because that's all we had was that night and that opportunity. However, to close this out, I will say this, leadership is all about solving problems. You can have your filter to kill everyone's talent, or you can be a leader and learn to deal with things, however this requires a more mature mindset because this means that sometimes you have to take responsibility for someone else. It is a selfless personality that makes a better leader than someone armed with a fist full of iron ready to meet out wrath for experiencing an issue that could have been solved by showing a little humility and perseverance - even if - it wasn't yo fault.

If you tank all the time, you dont know what its like.

I wait for 30 plus min as a dps to play, the tank is a dps who slotted a taunt. He doesnt keep aggro, he doesnt buff.

The boss health bar is barely moving without tank buffs even though the fake tank is also a dps. Which means you have to deal with twice as many mechanics, and in the mean time, running for your life. The fake tank is doing more dps because the real dps have to keep rezzing each other. And the healer is overworked keeping the tank up and cant spare as many heals. ( i suspect these pairings are usually guildies who dgaf about the dps. If a dps quits another will pop in a min so they down nt care.)

Its an incredibly selfish and toxic playstyle. They are treating the dps who just waited 30 minutes like we are NPCs.

Hi ImmortalCX, thank you for your response.

Like I said, I understand there are people out there misrepresenting themselves. I can empathize with your situation as well but as I alluded to in my post, there are times when we all are dealt a rough hand. Being a Tank, does not make you immune to role complications within your group. In this particular instance, you are grieved due to someone else abusing the Tank role. In my particular instance, I've had people abuse the DPS role and more so, the Healer role.

My first encounter with a fake healer was down in the Blood Forge dungeon with the giant minotaur who is standing on the island there. I kept wondering why our heals was so bad and come to find out the Argonian Healer we had was just wasting time. Yes. She didn't care she just wanted to ride thru the place on our backs. We dropped her like a flat tire and made it thru the run relatively quickly afterwards.

And that's my point, I guess. It's a message based on experience in dealing with things like this, it's a point made that's sharp but not edgy. It's an enterprise like no other, neither limited by the mistakes of others nor derailed because of the abuse of a couple. It's probably not what people want to hear, but if it's possible I just think it's better to keep your options open. That is the advantage of helming a Tank role though.

I mean nothing sideways when I say this, however DPS come and go frequently but a good tank is not expendable (generally speaking). And that was one thing I did right was turned Tanking, in its various forms into a science and dropped the DPS approach. Though you may not agree with it, the cost of doing business as a Tank right now is at an all-time low. Being a Tank is the center of the game now; other group roles are more replaceable.

Perhaps more of you out there might try Tanking? If nothing else, it would be a change of pace, and you would be learning something new. Think of it as an adaptation.

well conidering how easy your group made it through and how much you thoroughly enjoyed kicking your healer from the squad nobody can fault you for the way you play, for me i would have thought before kicking as a last resort saved for the despicable and wanted to go on regardless in the past

Just a sec. Please show me where I indicated that any of us enjoyed kicking her? If anything, we suffered because she didn't care. I know the post was kind of lengthy, but details are everything. Furthermore, that boss is one of the last bosses in the dungeon so a thoughtful person could easily understand that if she was not doing her job then the group suffered up until that point. Again, a thoughtful person could understand that the reason she was booted is because we could not get past that boss. Do you see what I am saying here? She was booted because she left us with no choice other than to quit. It was to remove her, or everyone had to give up. And that's not fair.

This is why I run tank exclusively these days, so I have some control over things because while I am not perfect, 99% of the time I am fair about things. There's such a term in battlefield medicine called Triage. Sometimes everyone won't make it and you have to decide who is more likely to survive and who is not. Maturity is sorely lacking in society as a whole. And it is a mistake to keep expecting authorities to fix every problem when you yourself have the power to fix that issue, even if its not nice. Being a leader is scarcely an easy thing. In this scenario, she was the problem, she brought the problem, and it was my job to sort it out.

And I do not apologize to anyone for it. Next time come prepared, next time let us know sooner if you need help or if there is a skill issue so we can possibly adjust. It is not fair to blame me or my group for what someone else failed to do and the contempt that they showed for us and the time given that could not be so easily replaced..

after dropping your healer like you say as 'a flat tire', may i ask in this specific instance if you needed to replace the healer to succeed or you got a clear with 3 ?

Vulkunne · May 16

Daoin wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The dps que is 20 min bcs everyone and their mom plays a dps, if you want lower que times than maybe you should take one for the team and learn to tank instead of complaining about other people skipping the que

Him(OP) sitting out the queue makes him a victim, not the problem. The problem is players skipping the line when they should not be able to! OP has already demonstrated they were willing to sit out the 20 min queue, only to be a victim of someone else skipping the line. Causing a bad experience for the OP or another 20 min queue.

This(fake role/speedrunner) should just simply not be possible to do! Stop making excuses for these types of players, they do not care about the community or other player's time at all. And should not be playing an MMO.

I've been with this game for a very long time and have participated as Tank role exclusively for most of that time.

My experience has been that I think because of (we'll call it) 'staffing issues' in this game, we can't always get the type of group that we want. This is kin to saying, the traditional group isn't always a luxury, and, in many instances, it really doesn't have to be get thru the content. That said, a Traditional group requires Traditional roles, gear and the attitude/mindset/maturity to boot. This is something learned over time, and it is not fair to have such a lofty expectation that everyone can produce this or even should. People come into their own when they are ready, or when the situation brings this out in them but either way you can't code to force this. Without making this post too long and wordy, in many instances it doesn't take overwhelming 'commitment' to a role to get thru the run, it takes people dedicated to completing the run itself and not necessarily the role. In other words, they have to want it, they have to want to be there and want to win.

I see these posts from time to time about fake this and that, but there is such a thing as faking it until you make it and so I think given the design of the game it would be a bad idea to start forcing things and start forcing players to play a certain way. Forcing people like me to be a tank who can't do damage for instance, would be over the line, I think the decisions made by our groups are no one else's business as long as it's within the boundaries of TOS and we're not running exploits. I'm not trying to be mean -however- sometimes group problems are better off left up to the group itself and so I can't help if I'm forced to comply with what others demand, and them not even being there but we're forced to play by their rules ?

That said, I'm sorrowful for those souls out there who are having trouble with other players, yet many times to get thru ... I want to say probably most veteran content; we usually ran into trouble and found ways to deal with it and win the day without punishing everyone. Punishing everyone for the mistakes of a few is just as wrong as people being deceptive about their talents. This brings us to things like holding people accountable (collectively), as well as brainstorming, sometimes moving talent around between roles. Rarely one might have to go leave and one of their guildies would step up instead. Many times, I know personally that I carried multitudes of scrubs thru all kinds of content (just because I'm a nice guy and all).

You see, we all chose to deal with our problems, ourselves, and this enabled us to get thru most runs ok, it wasn't perfect, but we did it, because that's all we had was that night and that opportunity. However, to close this out, I will say this, leadership is all about solving problems. You can have your filter to kill everyone's talent, or you can be a leader and learn to deal with things, however this requires a more mature mindset because this means that sometimes you have to take responsibility for someone else. It is a selfless personality that makes a better leader than someone armed with a fist full of iron ready to meet out wrath for experiencing an issue that could have been solved by showing a little humility and perseverance - even if - it wasn't yo fault.

If you tank all the time, you dont know what its like.

I wait for 30 plus min as a dps to play, the tank is a dps who slotted a taunt. He doesnt keep aggro, he doesnt buff.

The boss health bar is barely moving without tank buffs even though the fake tank is also a dps. Which means you have to deal with twice as many mechanics, and in the mean time, running for your life. The fake tank is doing more dps because the real dps have to keep rezzing each other. And the healer is overworked keeping the tank up and cant spare as many heals. ( i suspect these pairings are usually guildies who dgaf about the dps. If a dps quits another will pop in a min so they down nt care.)

Its an incredibly selfish and toxic playstyle. They are treating the dps who just waited 30 minutes like we are NPCs.

Hi ImmortalCX, thank you for your response.

Like I said, I understand there are people out there misrepresenting themselves. I can empathize with your situation as well but as I alluded to in my post, there are times when we all are dealt a rough hand. Being a Tank, does not make you immune to role complications within your group. In this particular instance, you are grieved due to someone else abusing the Tank role. In my particular instance, I've had people abuse the DPS role and more so, the Healer role.

My first encounter with a fake healer was down in the Blood Forge dungeon with the giant minotaur who is standing on the island there. I kept wondering why our heals was so bad and come to find out the Argonian Healer we had was just wasting time. Yes. She didn't care she just wanted to ride thru the place on our backs. We dropped her like a flat tire and made it thru the run relatively quickly afterwards.

And that's my point, I guess. It's a message based on experience in dealing with things like this, it's a point made that's sharp but not edgy. It's an enterprise like no other, neither limited by the mistakes of others nor derailed because of the abuse of a couple. It's probably not what people want to hear, but if it's possible I just think it's better to keep your options open. That is the advantage of helming a Tank role though.

I mean nothing sideways when I say this, however DPS come and go frequently but a good tank is not expendable (generally speaking). And that was one thing I did right was turned Tanking, in its various forms into a science and dropped the DPS approach. Though you may not agree with it, the cost of doing business as a Tank right now is at an all-time low. Being a Tank is the center of the game now; other group roles are more replaceable.

Perhaps more of you out there might try Tanking? If nothing else, it would be a change of pace, and you would be learning something new. Think of it as an adaptation.

well conidering how easy your group made it through and how much you thoroughly enjoyed kicking your healer from the squad nobody can fault you for the way you play, for me i would have thought before kicking as a last resort saved for the despicable and wanted to go on regardless in the past

Just a sec. Please show me where I indicated that any of us enjoyed kicking her? If anything, we suffered because she didn't care. I know the post was kind of lengthy, but details are everything. Furthermore, that boss is one of the last bosses in the dungeon so a thoughtful person could easily understand that if she was not doing her job then the group suffered up until that point. Again, a thoughtful person could understand that the reason she was booted is because we could not get past that boss. Do you see what I am saying here? She was booted because she left us with no choice other than to quit. It was to remove her, or everyone had to give up. And that's not fair.

This is why I run tank exclusively these days, so I have some control over things because while I am not perfect, 99% of the time I am fair about things. There's such a term in battlefield medicine called Triage. Sometimes everyone won't make it and you have to decide who is more likely to survive and who is not. Maturity is sorely lacking in society as a whole. And it is a mistake to keep expecting authorities to fix every problem when you yourself have the power to fix that issue, even if its not nice. Being a leader is scarcely an easy thing. In this scenario, she was the problem, she brought the problem, and it was my job to sort it out.

And I do not apologize to anyone for it. Next time come prepared, next time let us know sooner if you need help or if there is a skill issue so we can possibly adjust. It is not fair to blame me or my group for what someone else failed to do and the contempt that they showed for us and the time given that could not be so easily replaced..

after dropping your healer like you say as 'a flat tire', may i ask in this specific instance if you needed to replace the healer to succeed or you got a clear with 3 ?

A flat tire might not be the best analogy because you could inflate it and make it useful again.

We actually had to wait on another healer. Sometimes yeah if the DPS was good enough we got by on 3. Its happened more than a couple times. But that time the DPS wasn't bad but they were not staying alive, I was eating enormous amounts of damage and so we had to replace the healer. One of the reasons for her getting dropped was she had this resto staff and was ... sitting there light attacking the boss. Seriously. I'm sitting there just drowning in fire and she's over there light attacking the boss with a resto staff. No heals. Just messing around. If anyone would like to continue trying to defend these actions, feel free but this is where I stand on that matter and those with me agreed. Our new healer did well, and we were out of there after another 30 minutes.

On a different note, another time, I tank for group running vCoA and we had, another healer, and she kept dying like every 10 feet. She wanted the helm, and I made the mistake of saying we'd carry her. That was my mistake. So, she continued dying every 10 feet, constantly needed to be rezzed and at the last boss she kept trying to go for the keys and wouldn't stop, for HM. Guess she wanted it all? I had come to my senses long before then and the group refused to kick her. They did this in the beginning too, so I tried to accommodate this person and her friends.

Ultimately the group failed, she was kicked and then this was one of two times I was also kicked from a group. I tried to be too nice, or more specifically I was forced to be too nice and go along with this cause we couldn't kick this healer, and so it cost us all alot of time and in the end no one got a helm or a clear or anything substantial because one person was put above everyone else. It wasn't just her doing this, the other too expected me to pull a miracle and they woudn't hear anything of replacing her or one of them leaving for a better DPS. I take responsibility for going along with this yes, though my Tank skills were never the problem. Now this was before golden was a thing and so I can empathize with this other healer to some extent, but the point hasn't change. The point is still the same and the end result was no different and we could not carry her.

Daoin · May 16

Vulkunne wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The dps que is 20 min bcs everyone and their mom plays a dps, if you want lower que times than maybe you should take one for the team and learn to tank instead of complaining about other people skipping the que

Him(OP) sitting out the queue makes him a victim, not the problem. The problem is players skipping the line when they should not be able to! OP has already demonstrated they were willing to sit out the 20 min queue, only to be a victim of someone else skipping the line. Causing a bad experience for the OP or another 20 min queue.

This(fake role/speedrunner) should just simply not be possible to do! Stop making excuses for these types of players, they do not care about the community or other player's time at all. And should not be playing an MMO.

I've been with this game for a very long time and have participated as Tank role exclusively for most of that time.

My experience has been that I think because of (we'll call it) 'staffing issues' in this game, we can't always get the type of group that we want. This is kin to saying, the traditional group isn't always a luxury, and, in many instances, it really doesn't have to be get thru the content. That said, a Traditional group requires Traditional roles, gear and the attitude/mindset/maturity to boot. This is something learned over time, and it is not fair to have such a lofty expectation that everyone can produce this or even should. People come into their own when they are ready, or when the situation brings this out in them but either way you can't code to force this. Without making this post too long and wordy, in many instances it doesn't take overwhelming 'commitment' to a role to get thru the run, it takes people dedicated to completing the run itself and not necessarily the role. In other words, they have to want it, they have to want to be there and want to win.

I see these posts from time to time about fake this and that, but there is such a thing as faking it until you make it and so I think given the design of the game it would be a bad idea to start forcing things and start forcing players to play a certain way. Forcing people like me to be a tank who can't do damage for instance, would be over the line, I think the decisions made by our groups are no one else's business as long as it's within the boundaries of TOS and we're not running exploits. I'm not trying to be mean -however- sometimes group problems are better off left up to the group itself and so I can't help if I'm forced to comply with what others demand, and them not even being there but we're forced to play by their rules ?

That said, I'm sorrowful for those souls out there who are having trouble with other players, yet many times to get thru ... I want to say probably most veteran content; we usually ran into trouble and found ways to deal with it and win the day without punishing everyone. Punishing everyone for the mistakes of a few is just as wrong as people being deceptive about their talents. This brings us to things like holding people accountable (collectively), as well as brainstorming, sometimes moving talent around between roles. Rarely one might have to go leave and one of their guildies would step up instead. Many times, I know personally that I carried multitudes of scrubs thru all kinds of content (just because I'm a nice guy and all).

You see, we all chose to deal with our problems, ourselves, and this enabled us to get thru most runs ok, it wasn't perfect, but we did it, because that's all we had was that night and that opportunity. However, to close this out, I will say this, leadership is all about solving problems. You can have your filter to kill everyone's talent, or you can be a leader and learn to deal with things, however this requires a more mature mindset because this means that sometimes you have to take responsibility for someone else. It is a selfless personality that makes a better leader than someone armed with a fist full of iron ready to meet out wrath for experiencing an issue that could have been solved by showing a little humility and perseverance - even if - it wasn't yo fault.

If you tank all the time, you dont know what its like.

I wait for 30 plus min as a dps to play, the tank is a dps who slotted a taunt. He doesnt keep aggro, he doesnt buff.

The boss health bar is barely moving without tank buffs even though the fake tank is also a dps. Which means you have to deal with twice as many mechanics, and in the mean time, running for your life. The fake tank is doing more dps because the real dps have to keep rezzing each other. And the healer is overworked keeping the tank up and cant spare as many heals. ( i suspect these pairings are usually guildies who dgaf about the dps. If a dps quits another will pop in a min so they down nt care.)

Its an incredibly selfish and toxic playstyle. They are treating the dps who just waited 30 minutes like we are NPCs.

Hi ImmortalCX, thank you for your response.

Like I said, I understand there are people out there misrepresenting themselves. I can empathize with your situation as well but as I alluded to in my post, there are times when we all are dealt a rough hand. Being a Tank, does not make you immune to role complications within your group. In this particular instance, you are grieved due to someone else abusing the Tank role. In my particular instance, I've had people abuse the DPS role and more so, the Healer role.

My first encounter with a fake healer was down in the Blood Forge dungeon with the giant minotaur who is standing on the island there. I kept wondering why our heals was so bad and come to find out the Argonian Healer we had was just wasting time. Yes. She didn't care she just wanted to ride thru the place on our backs. We dropped her like a flat tire and made it thru the run relatively quickly afterwards.

And that's my point, I guess. It's a message based on experience in dealing with things like this, it's a point made that's sharp but not edgy. It's an enterprise like no other, neither limited by the mistakes of others nor derailed because of the abuse of a couple. It's probably not what people want to hear, but if it's possible I just think it's better to keep your options open. That is the advantage of helming a Tank role though.

I mean nothing sideways when I say this, however DPS come and go frequently but a good tank is not expendable (generally speaking). And that was one thing I did right was turned Tanking, in its various forms into a science and dropped the DPS approach. Though you may not agree with it, the cost of doing business as a Tank right now is at an all-time low. Being a Tank is the center of the game now; other group roles are more replaceable.

Perhaps more of you out there might try Tanking? If nothing else, it would be a change of pace, and you would be learning something new. Think of it as an adaptation.

well conidering how easy your group made it through and how much you thoroughly enjoyed kicking your healer from the squad nobody can fault you for the way you play, for me i would have thought before kicking as a last resort saved for the despicable and wanted to go on regardless in the past

Just a sec. Please show me where I indicated that any of us enjoyed kicking her? If anything, we suffered because she didn't care. I know the post was kind of lengthy, but details are everything. Furthermore, that boss is one of the last bosses in the dungeon so a thoughtful person could easily understand that if she was not doing her job then the group suffered up until that point. Again, a thoughtful person could understand that the reason she was booted is because we could not get past that boss. Do you see what I am saying here? She was booted because she left us with no choice other than to quit. It was to remove her, or everyone had to give up. And that's not fair.

This is why I run tank exclusively these days, so I have some control over things because while I am not perfect, 99% of the time I am fair about things. There's such a term in battlefield medicine called Triage. Sometimes everyone won't make it and you have to decide who is more likely to survive and who is not. Maturity is sorely lacking in society as a whole. And it is a mistake to keep expecting authorities to fix every problem when you yourself have the power to fix that issue, even if its not nice. Being a leader is scarcely an easy thing. In this scenario, she was the problem, she brought the problem, and it was my job to sort it out.

And I do not apologize to anyone for it. Next time come prepared, next time let us know sooner if you need help or if there is a skill issue so we can possibly adjust. It is not fair to blame me or my group for what someone else failed to do and the contempt that they showed for us and the time given that could not be so easily replaced..

after dropping your healer like you say as 'a flat tire', may i ask in this specific instance if you needed to replace the healer to succeed or you got a clear with 3 ?

A flat tire might not be the best analogy because you could inflate it and make it useful again.

We actually had to wait on another healer. Sometimes yeah if the DPS was good enough we got by on 3. Its happened more than a couple times. But that time the DPS wasn't bad but they were not staying alive, I was eating enormous amounts of damage and so we had to replace the healer.

One of the reasons for her getting dropped was she had this resto staff and was ... sitting there light attacking the boss. Seriously. I'm sitting there just drowning in fire and she's over there light attacking the boss with a resto staff. No heals. Just messing around. If you would like to continue trying to defend these actions, feel free but this is where I stand on that matter and those with me agreed. Our new healer did well, and we were out of there after another 30 minutes.

thats a little better of an explanation, thankyou

ImmortalCX · May 16

Vulkunne wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The dps que is 20 min bcs everyone and their mom plays a dps, if you want lower que times than maybe you should take one for the team and learn to tank instead of complaining about other people skipping the que

Him(OP) sitting out the queue makes him a victim, not the problem. The problem is players skipping the line when they should not be able to! OP has already demonstrated they were willing to sit out the 20 min queue, only to be a victim of someone else skipping the line. Causing a bad experience for the OP or another 20 min queue.

This(fake role/speedrunner) should just simply not be possible to do! Stop making excuses for these types of players, they do not care about the community or other player's time at all. And should not be playing an MMO.

I've been with this game for a very long time and have participated as Tank role exclusively for most of that time.

My experience has been that I think because of (we'll call it) 'staffing issues' in this game, we can't always get the type of group that we want. This is kin to saying, the traditional group isn't always a luxury, and, in many instances, it really doesn't have to be get thru the content. That said, a Traditional group requires Traditional roles, gear and the attitude/mindset/maturity to boot. This is something learned over time, and it is not fair to have such a lofty expectation that everyone can produce this or even should. People come into their own when they are ready, or when the situation brings this out in them but either way you can't code to force this. Without making this post too long and wordy, in many instances it doesn't take overwhelming 'commitment' to a role to get thru the run, it takes people dedicated to completing the run itself and not necessarily the role. In other words, they have to want it, they have to want to be there and want to win.

I see these posts from time to time about fake this and that, but there is such a thing as faking it until you make it and so I think given the design of the game it would be a bad idea to start forcing things and start forcing players to play a certain way. Forcing people like me to be a tank who can't do damage for instance, would be over the line, I think the decisions made by our groups are no one else's business as long as it's within the boundaries of TOS and we're not running exploits. I'm not trying to be mean -however- sometimes group problems are better off left up to the group itself and so I can't help if I'm forced to comply with what others demand, and them not even being there but we're forced to play by their rules ?

That said, I'm sorrowful for those souls out there who are having trouble with other players, yet many times to get thru ... I want to say probably most veteran content; we usually ran into trouble and found ways to deal with it and win the day without punishing everyone. Punishing everyone for the mistakes of a few is just as wrong as people being deceptive about their talents. This brings us to things like holding people accountable (collectively), as well as brainstorming, sometimes moving talent around between roles. Rarely one might have to go leave and one of their guildies would step up instead. Many times, I know personally that I carried multitudes of scrubs thru all kinds of content (just because I'm a nice guy and all).

You see, we all chose to deal with our problems, ourselves, and this enabled us to get thru most runs ok, it wasn't perfect, but we did it, because that's all we had was that night and that opportunity. However, to close this out, I will say this, leadership is all about solving problems. You can have your filter to kill everyone's talent, or you can be a leader and learn to deal with things, however this requires a more mature mindset because this means that sometimes you have to take responsibility for someone else. It is a selfless personality that makes a better leader than someone armed with a fist full of iron ready to meet out wrath for experiencing an issue that could have been solved by showing a little humility and perseverance - even if - it wasn't yo fault.

If you tank all the time, you dont know what its like.

I wait for 30 plus min as a dps to play, the tank is a dps who slotted a taunt. He doesnt keep aggro, he doesnt buff.

The boss health bar is barely moving without tank buffs even though the fake tank is also a dps. Which means you have to deal with twice as many mechanics, and in the mean time, running for your life. The fake tank is doing more dps because the real dps have to keep rezzing each other. And the healer is overworked keeping the tank up and cant spare as many heals. ( i suspect these pairings are usually guildies who dgaf about the dps. If a dps quits another will pop in a min so they down nt care.)

Its an incredibly selfish and toxic playstyle. They are treating the dps who just waited 30 minutes like we are NPCs.

Hi ImmortalCX, thank you for your response.

Like I said, I understand there are people out there misrepresenting themselves. I can empathize with your situation as well but as I alluded to in my post, there are times when we all are dealt a rough hand. Being a Tank, does not make you immune to role complications within your group. In this particular instance, you are grieved due to someone else abusing the Tank role. In my particular instance, I've had people abuse the DPS role and more so, the Healer role.

My first encounter with a fake healer was down in the Blood Forge dungeon with the giant minotaur who is standing on the island there. I kept wondering why our heals was so bad and come to find out the Argonian Healer we had was just wasting time. Yes. She didn't care she just wanted to ride thru the place on our backs. We dropped her like a flat tire and made it thru the run relatively quickly afterwards.

And that's my point, I guess. It's a message based on experience in dealing with things like this, it's a point made that's sharp but not edgy. It's an enterprise like no other, neither limited by the mistakes of others nor derailed because of the abuse of a couple. It's probably not what people want to hear, but if it's possible I just think it's better to keep your options open. That is the advantage of helming a Tank role though.

I mean nothing sideways when I say this, however DPS come and go frequently but a good tank is not expendable (generally speaking). And that was one thing I did right was turned Tanking, in its various forms into a science and dropped the DPS approach. Though you may not agree with it, the cost of doing business as a Tank right now is at an all-time low. Being a Tank is the center of the game now; other group roles are more replaceable.

Perhaps more of you out there might try Tanking? If nothing else, it would be a change of pace, and you would be learning something new. Think of it as an adaptation.

The difference is, you are a tank and didn't have to wait 30 minutes.

twisttop138 · May 16

frogthroat wrote: »

cptscotty wrote: »

Fake tanking is a thing in this game because the game is really easy. Nothing really punishes someone with damage...especially since a lot of the content can be steam rolled with so much dps.

Not really. Although this is an MMO and as an action game this is not the most difficult, you have to remember many players - a large number of players do not come from other MMO games, but from The Elder Scrolls single player games.

Me included.

And for a huge number of players this is a challenging game. The build system is incredibly complicated and overwhelming for new players and even to some who have played for years. If you come from an MMO background, some difficult action game background (like a veteran Fromsoftware enjoyers), or put the time and effort to learn all the confusing things in this game, then it becomes easy.

This is a game where there are players who have played MMO all their lives. And there are players who enjoy the scenery in Skyrim. And everything between. This game is not easy for everyone. I, personally, want more people in veteran content. We don't get those Skyrim questers to put the effort to become better veteran players if we fake tank and then blame everyone else for a wipe.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

I always queue as a fake tank/fake healer, but I have actual tank/healer setups that I can quickly swap to with the armory NPC, if needed for specific encounters.
Reason for that is that I find tanking/healing to be boring, but I also don't want to wait an hour in queue.

This kind of fake tanking/healing I don't mind. I sometimes do that too. And make sure I do it on a character I have a build for the role I queue for. And I always write in the chat in the beginning of the dungeon. "hi, I am on a dd build but can switch to a healer build if anyone wants." 9/10 times everyone is ok with my fake role. 1/10 times I switch to the correct role.

This is something I've noticed too. I keep seeing people saying oh you don't even need a tank or a healer. It's so easy just slot a taunt. Let's not make blanket statements. For a lot of people, including the ones that come from mainline ES, this game, especially vet dungeons, is hard. In addition to my vet trials team I'm in a social guild that does vet dungeon training runs weekly as well as normal trial learning runs. People have a hard time. They just need someone to take a minute to teach them. Not everyone will be receptive but folks really appreciate it. I don't think random dungeons are that place, myself, but sometimes it is what it is. Sometimes these are kids or, to my surprise recently, the elderly. The game is hard for them.

I was in a falkreath hold run yesterday. I had very little time before a trial. It was glaringly obvious the healer and 2 dps were very new even though they all had a couple hundred cp. When they didn't do the 3rd bosses mechanics I let us wipe. I thought about leaving but decided to try and have a teachable moment. I typed out what I needed them to do and they did it. I did the same for the next two bosses and it was easy peasy. Sometimes folks just need a little help.

I will reiterate though. I don't think random dungeons finder is the place to learn vet dungeons. If you wanna fix the problem with long q times though, become a tank or healer. Problem solved. We need more.

Vulkunne · May 16

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The dps que is 20 min bcs everyone and their mom plays a dps, if you want lower que times than maybe you should take one for the team and learn to tank instead of complaining about other people skipping the que

Him(OP) sitting out the queue makes him a victim, not the problem. The problem is players skipping the line when they should not be able to! OP has already demonstrated they were willing to sit out the 20 min queue, only to be a victim of someone else skipping the line. Causing a bad experience for the OP or another 20 min queue.

This(fake role/speedrunner) should just simply not be possible to do! Stop making excuses for these types of players, they do not care about the community or other player's time at all. And should not be playing an MMO.

I've been with this game for a very long time and have participated as Tank role exclusively for most of that time.

My experience has been that I think because of (we'll call it) 'staffing issues' in this game, we can't always get the type of group that we want. This is kin to saying, the traditional group isn't always a luxury, and, in many instances, it really doesn't have to be get thru the content. That said, a Traditional group requires Traditional roles, gear and the attitude/mindset/maturity to boot. This is something learned over time, and it is not fair to have such a lofty expectation that everyone can produce this or even should. People come into their own when they are ready, or when the situation brings this out in them but either way you can't code to force this. Without making this post too long and wordy, in many instances it doesn't take overwhelming 'commitment' to a role to get thru the run, it takes people dedicated to completing the run itself and not necessarily the role. In other words, they have to want it, they have to want to be there and want to win.

I see these posts from time to time about fake this and that, but there is such a thing as faking it until you make it and so I think given the design of the game it would be a bad idea to start forcing things and start forcing players to play a certain way. Forcing people like me to be a tank who can't do damage for instance, would be over the line, I think the decisions made by our groups are no one else's business as long as it's within the boundaries of TOS and we're not running exploits. I'm not trying to be mean -however- sometimes group problems are better off left up to the group itself and so I can't help if I'm forced to comply with what others demand, and them not even being there but we're forced to play by their rules ?

That said, I'm sorrowful for those souls out there who are having trouble with other players, yet many times to get thru ... I want to say probably most veteran content; we usually ran into trouble and found ways to deal with it and win the day without punishing everyone. Punishing everyone for the mistakes of a few is just as wrong as people being deceptive about their talents. This brings us to things like holding people accountable (collectively), as well as brainstorming, sometimes moving talent around between roles. Rarely one might have to go leave and one of their guildies would step up instead. Many times, I know personally that I carried multitudes of scrubs thru all kinds of content (just because I'm a nice guy and all).

You see, we all chose to deal with our problems, ourselves, and this enabled us to get thru most runs ok, it wasn't perfect, but we did it, because that's all we had was that night and that opportunity. However, to close this out, I will say this, leadership is all about solving problems. You can have your filter to kill everyone's talent, or you can be a leader and learn to deal with things, however this requires a more mature mindset because this means that sometimes you have to take responsibility for someone else. It is a selfless personality that makes a better leader than someone armed with a fist full of iron ready to meet out wrath for experiencing an issue that could have been solved by showing a little humility and perseverance - even if - it wasn't yo fault.

If you tank all the time, you dont know what its like.

I wait for 30 plus min as a dps to play, the tank is a dps who slotted a taunt. He doesnt keep aggro, he doesnt buff.

The boss health bar is barely moving without tank buffs even though the fake tank is also a dps. Which means you have to deal with twice as many mechanics, and in the mean time, running for your life. The fake tank is doing more dps because the real dps have to keep rezzing each other. And the healer is overworked keeping the tank up and cant spare as many heals. ( i suspect these pairings are usually guildies who dgaf about the dps. If a dps quits another will pop in a min so they down nt care.)

Its an incredibly selfish and toxic playstyle. They are treating the dps who just waited 30 minutes like we are NPCs.

Hi ImmortalCX, thank you for your response.

Like I said, I understand there are people out there misrepresenting themselves. I can empathize with your situation as well but as I alluded to in my post, there are times when we all are dealt a rough hand. Being a Tank, does not make you immune to role complications within your group. In this particular instance, you are grieved due to someone else abusing the Tank role. In my particular instance, I've had people abuse the DPS role and more so, the Healer role.

My first encounter with a fake healer was down in the Blood Forge dungeon with the giant minotaur who is standing on the island there. I kept wondering why our heals was so bad and come to find out the Argonian Healer we had was just wasting time. Yes. She didn't care she just wanted to ride thru the place on our backs. We dropped her like a flat tire and made it thru the run relatively quickly afterwards.

And that's my point, I guess. It's a message based on experience in dealing with things like this, it's a point made that's sharp but not edgy. It's an enterprise like no other, neither limited by the mistakes of others nor derailed because of the abuse of a couple. It's probably not what people want to hear, but if it's possible I just think it's better to keep your options open. That is the advantage of helming a Tank role though.

I mean nothing sideways when I say this, however DPS come and go frequently but a good tank is not expendable (generally speaking). And that was one thing I did right was turned Tanking, in its various forms into a science and dropped the DPS approach. Though you may not agree with it, the cost of doing business as a Tank right now is at an all-time low. Being a Tank is the center of the game now; other group roles are more replaceable.

Perhaps more of you out there might try Tanking? If nothing else, it would be a change of pace, and you would be learning something new. Think of it as an adaptation.

The difference is, you are a tank and didn't have to wait 30 minutes.

Actually, the average wait, for me, to the best of my memory is if it wasn't instant, was about 10 to 15 minutes. Although when there are problems with the Team, your 30 minutes there can easily turn into an hour or longer. Even by today's standards.

Orbital78 · May 16

ImmortalCX wrote: »

The difference is, you are a tank and didn't have to wait 30 minutes.

If you're waiting 30 mins, you might want to spam the queue a few times. Unless you're queuing specific harder dungeons are off times. Even as a dps, it usually doesn't take longer than 10-15 in vet. I switch to heals sometimes if it is a dungeon I am familiar with and am confident I can keep the group alive through (if they don't try to die or ignore mechs).

ZoS' match making is buggy and could use updates. I've sat in queue for 15-20 mins doing other things and kind of forgot. Unqueue and requeue to instantly get a dungeon.

frogthroat · May 17

Orbital78 wrote: »

Graven deep is one that can go okay until the last boss, I kind of avoid running that one now unless the tank is 1500+ and seems to know what they are doing.

Actually, yeah. Although I am not a very good tank I have tanked Maarselok, Moongrave, even Exiled Redoubt hard modes, but vGD is still surprising even in non-HM. It can go easily, or it can disintegrate with one mistake.

Orbital78 wrote: »

I do tank, heal, and dps in hybrid roles quite often, not so much tanking in vet (though I can solo most base vet hardmodes).

Next patch it is possible to get to resistance cap with 2 heavy, 5 medium. Combined with scribing abilities where you can stack 3 effects in one skill and I am sure we will start to see hybrid DD-tanks more and more.

mdjessup4906 · May 17

Frigging gv lol. The worst thing is how hard the damn orbs are to see with all the pipes and junk in the way. And the room looking almost exactly the same from all angles makes it hell to orient yourself especially on hm when tank has to do at least 2 of them. It reminds me of sanity edge 2nd boss puzzle which I also cannot do on vet.
Shame too because apart from that it's one of my fav dungeons.

Cooperharley · May 17

I would be more in favor of an accolades system similar to the forums where you can simply say if you "liked" or "disliked" playing with this player based on performance, teamwork, attitude, etc., but without comments to avoid toxicity.

That way if a player was heavily disliked due to group-unfriendly practices for instance or was toxic, you'd know immediately upon entering a group with them.