Fake tanks And healers, vet dlc. Please no.

Cooperharley

Orbital78 wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

That kind of addon would have a great bullying potential. Block the fake tanks.

Block bad players in general, sadly the ignore list is tiny and it doesn't prevent you from match making with them again in the future. At least you can make creative notes for the LOL's, "doesn't know how to break free and stands in stupid, smoothest of the smooth, droop shoulders, 10% of the group dps, can't figure out what a taunt is".

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me. Most other MMOs did it and still had a functional matchmaking, surely a AAA company can do it with this much money and talent pool.

Renato90085 wrote: »

Next patch maybe will more fake tank

Hopefully not in vet, but who knows maybe subclassing will make tanking more fun and people will actually want to do it, but I doubt it.

It won't. It'll spice things up sure, but there will still be a META for it.

Truthfully, as someone that loves playing support specs in any game, tanks in ESO are completely dull and at the whim of the rest of the group. Tanks in wow actually do damage and you can continue to play that playstyle comfortably throughout the entire game. It is mindblowingly boring to play a tank in overland and via questing because ZOS made tanks and healers simply buff bots for the DPS and if you have 2 players who are playing blindfolded and with their toes, it makes for a miserable experience. Sub-classing doesn't fix that.

Desiato

Cooperharley wrote: »

Truthfully, as someone that loves playing support specs in any game, tanks in ESO are completely dull and at the whim of the rest of the group. Tanks in wow actually do damage and you can continue to play that playstyle comfortably throughout the entire game. It is mindblowingly boring to play a tank in overland and via questing because ZOS made tanks and healers simply buff bots for the DPS and if you have 2 players who are playing blindfolded and with their toes, it makes for a miserable experience. Sub-classing doesn't fix that.

ESO is not a triad mmo for the most part. It is only in trials where tank/healer/dd roles are rigidly enforced -- and even there parse tanks/healers can be a thing.

The kind of tank you enjoy playing is available to you though! I play parse tank builds in normal and some vet dungeons that fulfill all of their duties to the group while contributing a significant amount of dps. This is the only way a normal dungeon can be enjoyable to me.

In vet content, I don't just hold block and taunt mobs. I prefer 1 tank 3 DD groups in which I am responsible for healing myself. This keeps me active. A good tank in ESO will be very high APM with light and heavy attack weaves. I'm not a good tank btw, but I try to play like one by being active the entire fight.

The same goes for healing. A dedicated healer does not make sense in most groups outside of trials. Even vet dungeons. So it is parse healing builds that are most effective in most content.

And then on top of that, there are countless support dps combinations. You can invent your own for group content. In an optimal 1 tank 3 dd group, at least one of the dds will be wearing support sets -- or they could be spread among all three.

When my tanks are used in overland content, I switch them to overland dps builds that melt the avg mob in 1 or 2 gcds.

ESO can be played how one wants. If they just want one build, it will work for most content. However, when ESO is played as an MMO, characters are highly dynamic with builds tailored to the type of content. This will be more true than ever with subclassing.

frogthroat

Cooperharley wrote: »

I would be more in favor of an accolades system similar to the forums where you can simply say if you "liked" or "disliked" playing with this player based on performance, teamwork, attitude, etc., but without comments to avoid toxicity.

That way if a player was heavily disliked due to group-unfriendly practices for instance or was toxic, you'd know immediately upon entering a group with them.

Of course this would not be weaponised...

You would recognise active PVP players immediately. Other alliance groups would mass dislike them.

tincanman

Hat's off to you guys who still pug and random vet at that - that's taking self-flagellationlessness to new depths heights. /s

Orbital78

frogthroat wrote: »

Next patch it is possible to get to resistance cap with 2 heavy, 5 medium. Combined with scribing abilities where you can stack 3 effects in one skill and I am sure we will start to see hybrid DD-tanks more and more.

Nice, I hope so. Less boring tanking would be nice. Though even with heavy attack/arcanist "crutch" builds people still don't seem to meet the vet demands usually. I am all for helping boost the lower end of things.

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

The worst thing is how hard the damn orbs are to see with all the pipes and junk in the way. Shame too because apart from that it's one of my fav dungeons.

Part of the issue can be tank positioning, I've tried to correct them a few times. If you pull to a corner it makes it much easier for the healer to hit the orbs for them. But dps or tank sill needs to cover for the healer sometimes if they soulsplit.

It is my favorite dungeon cosmetically, they did a great job with it. Overall just a pretty good dungeon.

MidniteOwl1913

ANother downside to fakes, when they load into DLC they often just leave. That makes the dungeon much harder for the rest of us. It happened to me last night 3 times. We never got a replacement tank before the end of the dungeon. In two cases we were not able to finish without the tank. After a few wipes everyone left.

This topic keeps coming up. The people who fake, defend it. It benefits them and that's all they care about. From my point of view it never ok to lie and queue for a role you have no intention of preforming. Even in the cases where it works out, queueing for random you had no idea that it would. But I don't think anyone's opinion will be changed. Cheaters gonna cheat. I should know better than try to get by without a tank, so that much is on me. I should have just left. Staying was a waste of time.

Orbital78

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Staying was a waste of time.

If a support drops, I do as well. It isn't worth the time to wait around, at least on veteran. It isn't just fakes that drop either, it depends on the dungeon they get. Some people loathe some dungeons, like LoM.

If more people wanted to tank and armory slots weren't so insanely expensive (account slot unlocks ZoS!) maybe groups could adapt easier. Replacing a healer would be rather simple typically, but tanking at vet level can be more challenging for some.

DenverRalphy

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

ANother downside to fakes, when they load into DLC they often just leave. That makes the dungeon much harder for the rest of us. It happened to me last night 3 times. We never got a replacement tank before the end of the dungeon. In two cases we were not able to finish without the tank. After a few wipes everyone left.

This topic keeps coming up. The people who fake, defend it. It benefits them and that's all they care about. From my point of view it never ok to lie and queue for a role you have no intention of preforming. Even in the cases where it works out, queueing for random you had no idea that it would. But I don't think anyone's opinion will be changed. Cheaters gonna cheat. I should know better than try to get by without a tank, so that much is on me. I should have just left. Staying was a waste of time.

Yeah. Happens quite frequently. Get a DLC like Scalecaller Peak, and they'll punk out.

Daoin

there is no point for posts like these unless your generally experiencing the effects from a new player perspective. because there is no point in telling players that something they have been doing correctly for countless years and always proved a better and and more succesful way that they have been wrong and needed to in any way justify a proper role, in the end tank properly dd properly and heal properly = more fun and more success all around, fake roles however have limitless time to argue thier point as it basically is a false statement for a false role to say this is better therefore will never be proven. like in X Files, except if 'I want to believe' and considering there are not enough forum users to take heed to the message the effects of fake roles would have always been felt in game regardless of posts such as these. saying 1 million times to each other or starting countless debates between the same few people that it was a good thing for people to just happen upon in forum one day does not take away others experiences of having made dungeons runs better for so many people after just playing thier real roles in game. we can only hope those that needed to know in-game got the message and witnessed the difference for themselves before update 46 came along. these debates onky sent me cruising down the real role path for years and gaming experience was %100 better for it and i am just a tiny fraction of what once was a healthy random group community that looked in forum too. for newer players it only takes a few days before they start seeing in groups people asking question like 'fake tank ?' 'fake healer?' and seeing groups dissintergrate, sure the easier dungeons may have been easy pickings for fake rolers, no question about it but everyone also that needs to know, knows already what that means too, that its the only places for a useless power display thay runins experiences in those places too, as for fungal 1, i doubt 99% of players ever knew what was past the waterfall if the risked a random. and dare anyone say to group 'hey lets go this way' at the risk of group assasination or a fungal 1 kick over a 10 or 20 second optional route to eperience the whole dungeon with no skips. so sure yes we already knew fake rolling could be enforced with even toxicity in game anyway which made people only more thoughtful for othe rplaces later on but hopefull update 46 evens out some of this old ways but i doubt it, and i think it just may make the game more enjoyable over all for those who still play, but in the end nobody ever truly liked the fake rolers that intended to play that way regardless of actual true opinion in game. still everyone had little choice to play around it really. atleast with update 46 and whole fake debate poeple can just choose to leave for good or take a longer break now with lighter heart on bothe sides of it. an extra pair of top class boots and some jeans each year or go on playing as usual ? choice is the players

joshisanonymous

Even normal dungeons are often ruined by this. I've had to leave normal runs because someone queue'd as a tank and then exploded on trash mobs, just assuming that it's normal so they can literally be a glass cannon and queue as a tank and it'll be no problem.

Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

I'm surprised it doesn't work that way. I hadn't even thought about blocking fake tanks, but that's a great idea.

Pevey

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Even normal dungeons are often ruined by this. I've had to leave normal runs because someone queue'd as a tank and then exploded on trash mobs, just assuming that it's normal so they can literally be a glass cannon and queue as a tank and it'll be no problem.

Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

I'm surprised it doesn't work that way. I hadn't even thought about blocking fake tanks, but that's a great idea.

This could be the simplest solution to the problem, because it would address the underlying reason people queue for roles they can't fulfill. If blocking a person prevented group finder from grouping you with them, their queue times would go up. But also, for the people who genuinely don't mind/don't care, they would get paired only with like-minded people. The cost of indiscriminately blocking people without giving them a chance would me that your own queue times would go up. Seems like a win all around, especially since so many new players assume that blocking works this way already.

JaxontheUnfortunate

I have the opposite where I queue as an actual tank and some healer or dps pulls every fight making my job harder I will generally drop that group and reque.

Orbital78

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Even normal dungeons are often ruined by this. I've had to leave normal runs because someone queue'd as a tank and then exploded on trash mobs, just assuming that it's normal so they can literally be a glass cannon and queue as a tank and it'll be no problem.

Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

I'm surprised it doesn't work that way. I hadn't even thought about blocking fake tanks, but that's a great idea.

Use the addon Toxic Players and have it display ignore notes, it will show cross swords to you ignored players and the note as to why you ignored them. It will save you frustration to just leave the group when you encounter them, but it would be nice to just avoid them all together as to not catch others in the crossfire.

frogthroat

Orbital78 wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Even normal dungeons are often ruined by this. I've had to leave normal runs because someone queue'd as a tank and then exploded on trash mobs, just assuming that it's normal so they can literally be a glass cannon and queue as a tank and it'll be no problem.

Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

I'm surprised it doesn't work that way. I hadn't even thought about blocking fake tanks, but that's a great idea.

Use the addon Toxic Players and have it display ignore notes, it will show cross swords to you ignored players and the note as to why you ignored them. It will save you frustration to just leave the group when you encounter them, but it would be nice to just avoid them all together as to not catch others in the crossfire.

That addon name could be better, imo. It is a wonderful addon even if you don't block or ignore anyone. It highlights friends and guild members, too. So it is very useful even if you don't plan to use it for identifying toxic players.

mrreow

Orbital78 wrote: »

Use the addon Toxic Players and have it display ignore notes, it will show cross swords to you ignored players and the note as to why you ignored them. It will save you frustration to just leave the group when you encounter them, but it would be nice to just avoid them all together as to not catch others in the crossfire.

Honestly someone who really has this elaborate set up to light up the players who wronged them in the past and get revenge in PvP, PvE or the like is straight outta warhammer fantasy dwarves.

Keeping a book of their enemies with elaborate notes is just tiny tad crazy

Thee_Cheshire_Cat

Speaking as someone who was a healer, fake tanks and people trying to speed roll through things, makes it NOT fun to be a healer. People don't understand how stressful it can be on a perfect run as it is, without people not doing the roles properly that they cued as.

i am not aiming this as new players who are really real tanks, for example, yes, they have to learn, but i mean those people who are NOT tanks and queing as such.

Healers are under appreciated.

On the other side of the coin, fake healers make things hard for real tanks, too....and the group in general.

To those cueing as a tank or healer who are not... please stop.

MasterSpatula

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

If everyone who complained about fake tanks and healers made a tank or healer to queue on, this problem would simply cease to exist.

I almost never pug dungeons on anything but my healer. Fake tanks still ruin my experience.

cuddles_with_wroble

A lot of people here assume that every real tank you get is more useful than a dps with a taunt but if you actually pay attention to what your tanks are wearing and casting you’ll quickly realize that 90% of tanks aren’t buffing you in any meaningful way aside from maybe a warhorn every now and then but even that is rare in my exp

And that’s not even to mention that tanks buffs are no where near as strong in a 4 man as they are in a 12 man where you have every single buff in the game, a good dps with a taunt will add more damage to the avg group than a tank with BIS sets will bcs avg players don’t do good damage. Most people I get in my randoms are doing sub 30k dps so really no amount of buffs is gonna help that tragedy

Most of the time it is just as fast to just solo the dungeon but then I only get 1 drop instead of a potential 4 chances at a drop I want

ImmortalCX

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

A lot of people here assume that every real tank you get is more useful than a dps with a taunt but if you actually pay attention to what your tanks are wearing and casting you’ll quickly realize that 90% of tanks aren’t buffing you in any meaningful way aside from maybe a warhorn every now and then but even that is rare in my exp

And that’s not even to mention that tanks buffs are no where near as strong in a 4 man as they are in a 12 man where you have every single buff in the game, a good dps with a taunt will add more damage to the avg group than a tank with BIS sets will bcs avg players don’t do good damage. Most people I get in my randoms are doing sub 30k dps so really no amount of buffs is gonna help that tragedy

Most of the time it is just as fast to just solo the dungeon but then I only get 1 drop instead of a potential 4 chances at a drop I want

I can tell from the damage meter when we (dps) aren't getting tank buffs and when the tank is trying to do the "hybrid" thing.

If I normally am at 45-50% damage done in a vet dlc, but the meter says I'm only doing 35-40% AND the boss is taking twice as long to kill, that is the TELL of a fake tank.

Normally if there were tank buffs and i'm making 35-40% damage, that would NORMALLY mean the other DPS is god tier and we burn through stuff. BUT, because the ttk is literally twice as long, that means the tank didn't bring buffs, AND they are also trying to do damage.

I think their attitude is something along the lines "I'm the tank, and I'm hitting 20-30% damage, these dps are lame", when the reality is that if he was serving his role properly, grouping adds and providing buffs, the fights would all go faster. Its a combination of ego and stupidity on part of the tanks. Bad tanking will absolutely lower the damage done by DPS.

Tank wearing heavy hybrid tank/dps gear and pointing finger at dps who are running for their lives, self healing, running out of resources. Dunning Kreuger.

kurbbie_s

lol, "fake tank" you mean someone without a taunt.
If youre not clearning dungeons because you dont have someone to hold aggro so you can stand still, you need to make a group.
I "fake tank" all the time and never have an issue even in Vet dungeons. Its a skill issue. Roll, stop standing in red. Only time youd need a tank is for trials, or maybe an arena, but even the arena can be soloed.

Desiato

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Normally if there were tank buffs and i'm making 35-40% damage, that would NORMALLY mean the other DPS is god tier and we burn through stuff. BUT, because the ttk is literally twice as long, that means the tank didn't bring buffs, AND they are also trying to do damage.

I think their attitude is something along the lines "I'm the tank, and I'm hitting 20-30% damage, these dps are lame", when the reality is that if he was serving his role properly, grouping adds and providing buffs, the fights would all go faster. Its a combination of ego and stupidity on part of the tanks. Bad tanking will absolutely lower the damage done by DPS.

Tank wearing heavy hybrid tank/dps gear and pointing finger at dps who are running for their lives, self healing, running out of resources. Dunning Kreuger.

There are two different topics being discussed within this thread. Normal dungeons and vet dungeons. I also understand your op was about vet dungeons, but this is just how the conversation evolved. I agree with you completely about vet dlc dungeons. A hybrid tank is suitable for base game vets, but not optimal in most dlc vets.

When it comes to normal dlc dungeons, hybrid tanks and healers are definitely superior for high apm players. This is because a decent build is going to passively heal the vast majority of damage in a normal. When I 'heal' a normal with a warden, green lotus keeps everyone topped up 95% of the time unless they constantly stand in red.

And to be clear, this is what a hybrid build looks like:

tank/dps hybrid #1 uses olorime, master ice staff, and rush of agony/powerful assault [trash/boss]
tank/dps hybrid #2 uses olorime, turning tide and vateshran 1h&s/master's 1h&s

So despite having 22-28k hp and parsing 20-40k, I am also
- taunting and positioning bosses
- buffing the group with sets like olo and pa
- corralling trash and pulling in adds
- debuffing the boss with sets like TT in addition to the standard debuffs

If we were in the same group, you would see your % of the dps drop, but the boss would melt.

And frankly, even without buffing my group, I would still be an asset with a more complete dps rotation and minor slayer, but I want to be a good teammate. again, this applies to normal and base game vet dungeons only. I could still do the job in most vet dlc dungeons, but I wouldn't want to.

What becomes optimal in vet dlc dungeons are groups with a tank/healer hybrid with 1-3 support DDs. I'm sorry if this is offensive to dedicated healers, but this is how eso is.

kurbbie_s wrote: »

lol, "fake tank" you mean someone without a taunt.
If youre not clearning dungeons because you dont have someone to hold aggro so you can stand still, you need to make a group.
I "fake tank" all the time and never have an issue even in Vet dungeons. Its a skill issue. Roll, stop standing in red. Only time youd need a tank is for trials, or maybe an arena, but even the arena can be soloed.

I've been in 4 dps vet randoms that ripped it up, but you're still better off with a taunt so the boss isn't ping ponging out of ground dots.

cuddles_with_wroble

I dunno what a hybrid tank/dps even is, when I fake tank I just slot a taunt on my normal dps build and if you need more than just vigor as heals than your playing wrong and taking to much damage

MidniteOwl1913

kurbbie_s wrote: »

lol, "fake tank" you mean someone without a taunt.
If youre not clearning dungeons because you dont have someone to hold aggro so you can stand still, you need to make a group.
I "fake tank" all the time and never have an issue even in Vet dungeons. Its a skill issue. Roll, stop standing in red. Only time youd need a tank is for trials, or maybe an arena, but even the arena can be soloed.

No. I'm the healer if the boss is chasing me around I ain't happy, and I'm not healing so nobody is happy.

kargen27

Pevey wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Even normal dungeons are often ruined by this. I've had to leave normal runs because someone queue'd as a tank and then exploded on trash mobs, just assuming that it's normal so they can literally be a glass cannon and queue as a tank and it'll be no problem.

Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

I'm surprised it doesn't work that way. I hadn't even thought about blocking fake tanks, but that's a great idea.

This could be the simplest solution to the problem, because it would address the underlying reason people queue for roles they can't fulfill. If blocking a person prevented group finder from grouping you with them, their queue times would go up. But also, for the people who genuinely don't mind/don't care, they would get paired only with like-minded people. The cost of indiscriminately blocking people without giving them a chance would me that your own queue times would go up. Seems like a win all around, especially since so many new players assume that blocking works this way already.

This runs into all kinds of problems. The group finder would have to check everyone to see if they are on your blocked list. Now when you get the 2nd member the group finder has to check every player against both your blocked lists. It also has to check to be sure you are not on the lists of those considered to fill the empty slots. You can get into a scenario where a tank is available but someone in your group is on their list so you don't get the tank.
It would add server strain and potentially add wait times. Many tanks don't like how they are treated in a group. Tanks being a bit rare they can be more picky about who they want to group with. I've seen DPS blame a tank for a jump mechanic where the boss randomly attacks a player then goes back to tank with tank never losing taunt. The DPS fails to block, dies then jumps on the tank. Tanks don't like that and they would take full advantage of being able to block those types of DPS. You get that DPS in your group and you might be waiting all night.

gc0018

If there are more real DPS around, nobody will choice to be a fake tank / healer. Pure tank and healer are so easy and relax.

vuwuv

Should we consider 20k dps dd in vet dlc dungeon fake dd?

When you get 2 of those, fake healer with high dps feels like a blessing.

Orbital78

vuwuv wrote: »

Should we consider 20k dps dd in vet dlc dungeon fake dd?

When you get 2 of those, fake healer with high dps feels like a blessing.

20k is kind of bare minimum level single target dps for vets especially dlc IMO. If that dps knows mechs and can avoid aoe and not die, it should be okay. If they are constantly dead and causing the other dps to stop, that is when things get rougher. I've found times when the healer feels semi worthless and my sorc is forced to heal the tank even though the healer isn't "fake or doing damage". There are no checks or balances to the queues, so you never know what skill level you are going to get and a few times yesterday I just ended up leaving. One time I was at the last boss of Oathsworn pit and the tank kept panicking and swinging cleaves and stuff. Last boss, should be a easy clear but I just gave up on that group, they were all newer ~300-400 cp and didn't seem to have a grasp of what to do.

mague

Even worse when you really tank. Those triggerhappy dd's attack anything and think you are their taunt bot with to low dps slowing them down...

DenverRalphy

vuwuv wrote: »

Should we consider 20k dps dd in vet dlc dungeon fake dd?

Not at all. Perhaps not likely to get the timed speed run achievement in a DLC dungeon, but 20k dps in a vet non-HM is just fine.

JaxontheUnfortunate

mague wrote: »

Even worse when you really tank. Those triggerhappy dd's attack anything and think you are their taunt bot with to low dps slowing them down...

lol yeah, you pull it you tank it I’ll generally just sit back and watch the chaos when a non tank pulls a boss or trash mob, because clearly they want to be the tank.