Fake tanks And healers, vet dlc. Please no.

mdjessup4906 · May 12

Renato90085 wrote: »

Next patch maybe will more fake tank

* thinks back to when arc first released and how runic sunder is one of the first skills you get when leveling

*

frogthroat · May 13

Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

Wait, if you block you can still get matched in the same group? I don't use the blocking system myself so I did not know this. I thought that of course you won't be matched with anyone you have blocked.

So... what does block do? Just prevents whispers and mails?

Soarora · May 13

frogthroat wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

Wait, if you block you can still get matched in the same group? I don't use the blocking system myself so I did not know this. I thought that of course you won't be matched with anyone you have blocked.

So... what does block do? Just prevents whispers and mails?

Yes. Might block them from your house too but I’m not sure.

Oh and you can’t see their messages in chats.

Ragnarok0130 · May 13

I agree OP it is truly maddening as a healer main when someone queues as a tank but is a DPS without a taunt. I’m a healer main and if they slot a taunt I’ll do my darndest to keep them alive but I cannot do my job when the boss is focusing me or running around the map attacking everyone making them scatter because we don’t have a real tank. When it comes to vet DLC we absolutely need a real tank and they know that since most of the time they’ll drop as soon as the dungeon is a DLC dungeon. The whole fake tank things is so rude and disrespectful of the time of other players. Normally my tank companion is better than a fake tank but on DLC vet dungeons it’s not very successful.

Ragnarok0130 · May 13

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

I doubt subclassing is going to fix fake tanking. The kinds of people who fake aren't building for it by definition. Even if that means just slotting taunt on your dps.

I run Untauned addon on my dps as well as tanks with the setting to see others taunts toggled. Then I at least know something is taunted and they're just bad at tanking, not fake as such.

It’ll just make it worse because they’ll say they don’t have any tanking lines left to slot.

Sarannah · May 13

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The dps que is 20 min bcs everyone and their mom plays a dps, if you want lower que times than maybe you should take one for the team and learn to tank instead of complaining about other people skipping the que

Him(OP) sitting out the queue makes him a victim, not the problem. The problem is players skipping the line when they should not be able to! OP has already demonstrated they were willing to sit out the 20 min queue, only to be a victim of someone else skipping the line. Causing a bad experience for the OP or another 20 min queue.

This(fake role/speedrunner) should just simply not be pssible to do! Stop making excuses for these types of players, they do not care about the community or other player's time at all. And should not be playing an MMO.

As others have said, you could always slot a taunt and basically nothing outside of recently released vet dlc dungeons can really kill you if you block the heavy attack, and losing a tank for a dps in pug runs should gain you dps theoretically bcs most pug tanks don’t even wear the right sets to give you the buffs your after

And it’s only possible bcs of the class system of everyone can be everything we have in eso, want fake tanks gone? Fix the class design

"You could always slot a taunt?"... that is what the tank is for! If the OP were to slot a taunt and queue, why on earth would he queue for a dps instead of a tank?

It is not unreasonable and not unfair to expect someone to play the role they signed up for.

ZOS likes to promote "play how you want", but at the same time they allow one person grouping up as a fake role or speedrunner, to NOT allow three others to "play how they want", the role they want to play.

"Play how you want" does not work in mmo groupsettings, as it causes griefing and toxic behaviour. This is why all other mmo's have safeguards in place to prevent this. ZOS needs to introduce those safeguards as well. It is better to have to force one person somewhat how to play a role they actively sign up for, than it is to have three others be unable to play how they want to play.

All these fake role players could slot a taunt or heal if they sign up for the tank or heal role, as you said, they have the same toolkit! "Everyone can be everything we have in eso" goes both ways. Saying this makes the fake role players feel even more toxic, as you as well are stating this is an active choice they make to not perform the role they signed up for. After all, they could simply slot a taunt! (has nothing to do with classdesign)

The fake role and speedrun players could choose to use the groupfinder to find three likeminded players for a grouprun, but they purposely make the choice to be toxic to three random other players by using the dungeonfinder. Three other players who did wait out their long queue. These fake role/speedrun players made it a choice to be toxic to other players, which is very telling for why we need those safeguards asap!

The current grouping situation needs to be fixed, I do not even care how. Just as long as griefing and toxicity is no longer possible. ZOS wants new players to play ESO, but one bad dungeon experience will make them drop the game instantly. Even I often log off after experiencing crap like this.

frogthroat · May 13

Soarora wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

Wait, if you block you can still get matched in the same group? I don't use the blocking system myself so I did not know this. I thought that of course you won't be matched with anyone you have blocked.

So... what does block do? Just prevents whispers and mails?

Yes. Might block them from your house too but I’m not sure.

Oh and you can’t see their messages in chats.

I would have thought it also prevents the group finder from placing you in the same team. I don't really block anyone, ever, in any social media or otherwise so I didn't know how it works exactly. But I thought it blocks all the text based communication (which seems to be the only thing it blocks) but also all automated group finder things. If it is the behaviour you don't like, then it seems block does nothing.

Daoin · May 13

frogthroat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

Wait, if you block you can still get matched in the same group? I don't use the blocking system myself so I did not know this. I thought that of course you won't be matched with anyone you have blocked.

So... what does block do? Just prevents whispers and mails?

Yes. Might block them from your house too but I’m not sure.

Oh and you can’t see their messages in chats.

I would have thought it also prevents the group finder from placing you in the same team. I don't really block anyone, ever, in any social media or otherwise so I didn't know how it works exactly. But I thought it blocks all the text based communication (which seems to be the only thing it blocks) but also all automated group finder things. If it is the behaviour you don't like, then it seems block does nothing.

yes it blocks out thier conversation which is silly really, especially in circumastances where a player has been blocked due to treatment of another player other than ourselves and been forgotten in the block list some time later and ended up in same group without realizing. should be a way to make it stop being grouped with them altogether

katanagirl1 · May 13

Soarora wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

Wait, if you block you can still get matched in the same group? I don't use the blocking system myself so I did not know this. I thought that of course you won't be matched with anyone you have blocked.

So... what does block do? Just prevents whispers and mails?

Yes. Might block them from your house too but I’m not sure.

Oh and you can’t see their messages in chats.

There is a separate banlist for houses so I am not sure if the block for text and messages covers that or not.

Orbital78 · May 13

frogthroat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

Wait, if you block you can still get matched in the same group? I don't use the blocking system myself so I did not know this. I thought that of course you won't be matched with anyone you have blocked.

So... what does block do? Just prevents whispers and mails?

Yes. Might block them from your house too but I’m not sure.

Oh and you can’t see their messages in chats.

I would have thought it also prevents the group finder from placing you in the same team. I don't really block anyone, ever, in any social media or otherwise so I didn't know how it works exactly. But I thought it blocks all the text based communication (which seems to be the only thing it blocks) but also all automated group finder things. If it is the behaviour you don't like, then it seems block does nothing.

Ya most games it does all that, but in ESO if you get matched with someone who you have blocked, you don't even block their messages anymore. They can still communicate to you in group chat, even if it is toxic, racist, or harassing.

Carcamongus · May 13

It's just baffling people actually fake-role for vet dungeons. Yes, for some dungeons a taunt or some moderate healing will be enough, but the odds aren't favorable: there are more DLC ones than non-DLC and the former usually have more demanding mechanics. This is a problem that's hard to fix. I doubt reporting would do much good, especially since it could be abused and there's the issue of knowing the difference between a fake and an unprepared player. How do you convince more people to run support roles so queues don't take nearly as long? That points to the question of why more people don't choose support roles. I'm a tank who can't DPS to save his life, so I can't answer that.

Orbital78 · May 13

Carcamongus wrote: »

It's just baffling people actually fake-role for vet dungeons. Yes, for some dungeons a taunt or some moderate healing will be enough, but the odds aren't favorable: there are more DLC ones than non-DLC and the former usually have more demanding mechanics. This is a problem that's hard to fix. I doubt reporting would do much good, especially since it could be abused and there's the issue of knowing the difference between a fake and an unprepared player. How do you convince more people to run support roles so queues don't take nearly as long? That points to the question of why more people don't choose support roles. I'm a tank who can't DPS to save his life, so I can't answer that.

The main issue is that there is a large spread in difficulty, players of all roles queuing for content they are potentially not ready for, and the population that actually want to play support roles is very small.

Breaking up dungeons into base game and dlc could help via random: random vet base game, random vet dlc (same with normal). Vet base game don't need a tank, or a group for that matter most of the time unless there is some sort of mech that needs a synergy, lever, or such.

Tanking is much harder to adapt to as well with difficulty, healers not so much. A hybrid can heal most non HM DLC content, I'm sure some high end players could do it as tank but it is much rougher.

Lately I have been seeing a lot of players under 500CP in Vet DLC dungeons, a good sign for the game population but it is rougher for the random successes. You are missing many passives or even slotted CP at those levels. If it is a good group my hyrbid should be doing ~20-30% dps, with the lower CP's it starts creeping up. 500CP tank is just rough usually, they don't know the mechs often and such. It is what it is, if it becomes not fun leaving the group is always and option.

Reginald_leBlem · May 13

If everyone who complained about fake tanks and healers made a tank or healer to queue on, this problem would simply cease to exist.

RealLoveBVB · May 13

Orbital78 wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

That kind of addon would have a great bullying potential. Block the fake tanks.

Block bad players in general, sadly the ignore list is tiny and it doesn't prevent you from match making with them again in the future. At least you can make creative notes for the LOL's, "doesn't know how to break free and stands in stupid, smoothest of the smooth, droop shoulders, 10% of the group dps, can't figure out what a taunt is".

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me. Most other MMOs did it and still had a functional matchmaking, surely a AAA company can do it with this much money and talent pool.

Holy moly, what an elitist.

What about actually teaching bad players, instead of just making fun of them? How does blocking them make them better?

Most newbies are very thankful, when they get some advices.

When I started the game, I just wanted to play and skipped or didn't learned the stuff, that the tutorial offered.
On my first weeks I also didn't know how to break free or roll dodge.

Once you re-learned it again, you learned it for the life time.

So instead of being elitist and block every bad player, you can just try to give them some hints.

Therefore the matchmaking also don't need a rework... except it can lock-out elitists

Silaf · May 13

How many times we had this discussion on the forums?
The commented points are exactly the same with the same arguments over and over.

There is no solution to this problem because no one can definitively prove that someone is deliberatly ignoring his role and not simply incompetent so ZOS will never be able to do anyting.

Orbital78 · May 13

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

So instead of being elitist and block every bad player, you can just try to give them some hints.

What makes you think I didn't and they still ignored it or didn't understand English? The ignore list is too small to ignore every bad player, if the person was a guild mate I would feel much more invested in helping them learn. I am just there to have some fun and don't want to switch to keyboard and most 90% of the time to communicate all that stuff.

Someone mentioned that it was their first time doing Oathsworn pit, and I was just there farming motifs. I took the time to give the basics of the mechs, which almost got me killed a few times since the tank pulled before I could switch controls. I don't really want to do that every run though, but if someone communicates they need help I'll try. At least that person was fairly competent with basics and was doing pretty decent dps.

I've had groups where one person just will not listen (vSH immolate traps). The group has explained to stay in the circles 3-5+ times and they have wiped the group 3-5+ times. There is only so much you can do in some cases.

On my first weeks I also didn't know how to break free or roll dodge.

my comments were referring to vet DLC mostly, people are doing vet DLC and not understanding those basics.

Desiato · May 13

Silaf wrote: »

How many times we had this discussion on the forums?
The commented points are exactly the same with the same arguments over and over.

There is no solution to this problem because no one can definitively prove that someone is deliberatly ignoring his role and not simply incompetent so ZOS will never be able to do anyting.

This topic usually comes up in regards to normal dungeons. The vet discussion is different. A glass cannon dps can slot a taunt and tank normal dungeons, but that is not the case in most vet DLC dungeons.

I'm pretty frustrated by random dungeons of all kinds at this point. I am so sick of the player who joins a dungeon pug and just holds W the entire run without consideration for other players.

ZOS needs to re-think their incentivization strategies because they result in players going through the motions and doing the bare minimum for the reward.

Don't get me wrong. I love quick runs. But give players a moment to get the quest and be patient when they have to wait for a quest step because many of the I base game dungeons have quests that can break. It's faster to melt the trash than to avoid it because when stuck in combat, we move and recover resources much more slowly. Plus bosses die faster with full ult.

cptscotty · May 13

Fake tanking is a thing in this game because the game is really easy. Nothing really punishes someone with damage...especially since a lot of the content can be steam rolled with so much dps.

With subclassing and raising the dps ceiling so much more...this problem is about to get a whole lot worst. To be honest...what would the point of a tank or a healer be? Do you think you need one in normal dungeons now? What do people think is going to happen when current vet is turned into tomorrows normal with subclassing? As it is today, almost every vet dungeon can be soloed and that is about to become easier for the majority of players.

Makes me long for the days of other mmos where if a dps ran ahead of the tank they got smacked and taught a lesson not to do that again. Here, people are babied so this behavior continues and if anything, it gets encouraged.

Orbital78 · May 13

cptscotty wrote: »

Fake tanking is a thing in this game because the game is really easy. Nothing really punishes someone with damage...especially since a lot of the content can be steam rolled with so much dps.

With subclassing and raising the dps ceiling so much more...this problem is about to get a whole lot worst. To be honest...what would the point of a tank or a healer be? Do you think you need one in normal dungeons now? What do people think is going to happen when current vet is turned into tomorrows normal with subclassing? As it is today, almost every vet dungeon can be soloed and that is about to become easier for the majority of players.

Makes me long for the days of other mmos where if a dps ran ahead of the tank they got smacked and taught a lesson not to do that again. Here, people are babied so this behavior continues and if anything, it gets encouraged.

Go try Pantheon Rise of the Fallen if you want the old school feels, gonna take you years to level up and such.

Estin · May 13

I've been doing all dungeons on vet for the past month now and I can honestly say there are quite a few people who shouldn't be stepping foot in a vet dungeon yet. I've seen tanks who would walk right into obvious AOEs and die multiple times because of it, or miss an attack that has to be dodged (Dungeons like Graven Deep and Shipwright's Regret). I've been in dungeons where my DPS is 85% because the other DD is using a Xynode build, or where DD's will use Pale Order and constantly die to mechanics that could've been healed through. The dungeons are easier when you leave them dead.

For the most part, vet dungeons and their mechanics are easy. Hard modes are a different story, but don't take long to learn. If you ever plan on going into a vet DLC dungeon, watch a mechanics video before going in, and if you're on PC, get Code's Combat Alerts so you can know what is happening. Don't just hope in and try to learn on the fly. On average, non HM vet DLC dungeons take 15-20 minute to finish. Don't contribute to the timer reaching 40+ minutes because you didn't want to take the time to research.

icapital · May 13

why cant we just report fake tanks for like player griefing or something? it's taking away from our experience.

Orbital78 · May 14

Estin wrote: »

I've been in dungeons where my DPS is 85% because the other DD is using a Xynode build, or where DD's will use Pale Order and constantly die to mechanics that could've been healed through. The dungeons are easier when you leave them dead.

so true, tbh I have asked the group to leave players dead that keep messing up immolate trap etc. It will take longer but at least it will be over.

icapital wrote: »

why cant we just report fake tanks for like player griefing or something? it's taking away from our experience.

I mean you can, but it is just clogging up the support system. It isn't really against the rules, at least I haven't seen any response from ZoS about it. Griefing is a stretch, there would be a ton of bans for griefing at that rate.

Amottica · May 14

The simple solution is to form at least part of the group before queuing. Get a real tank and healer into the group (and also be one yourself sometimes).

I have not had a fake tank using this easy method except when a fake tank was desired.

Sadly, a large number of tanks and healers avoid using the GF to form their group in its entirety because of how bad those groups can be. I have seen DPS that could not kill bosses with a heal mechanism. I used to consider the low damage groups a good test of managing my resources, but it got old taunting the same trash boss adds multiple times because the group damage was that low.

Fix the issue, and more of us tanks might start using the GF some.

icapital · May 14

Orbital78 wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

I've been in dungeons where my DPS is 85% because the other DD is using a Xynode build, or where DD's will use Pale Order and constantly die to mechanics that could've been healed through. The dungeons are easier when you leave them dead.

so true, tbh I have asked the group to leave players dead that keep messing up immolate trap etc. It will take longer but at least it will be over.

icapital wrote: »

why cant we just report fake tanks for like player griefing or something? it's taking away from our experience.

I mean you can, but it is just clogging up the support system. It isn't really against the rules, at least I haven't seen any response from ZoS about it. Griefing is a stretch, there would be a ton of bans for griefing at that rate.

lol...but that's kind of the point, right? there would be a ton of them because it's an annoying practice to lie about your tankability lol...

Soarora · May 14

Sometimes people queue vet on accident but it does seem like theres this strange population of low cp mediocre skill players who think they can fake tank even though they aren’t even a good DPS let alone a tank.

Estin · May 14

Orbital78 wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

I've been in dungeons where my DPS is 85% because the other DD is using a Xynode build, or where DD's will use Pale Order and constantly die to mechanics that could've been healed through. The dungeons are easier when you leave them dead.

so true, tbh I have asked the group to leave players dead that keep messing up immolate trap etc. It will take longer but at least it will be over.

Did that dungeon for the first time on vet the other day since it was the pledge. It was easy, but me and the healer died something like 8 times between us in the 2 attempts it took for the last boss because the other DD kept backing up at 100MPH whenever the trap spawned on them. Even after telling them to stop moving, they still freaked out whenever the AOE started to spawn on them and never replied in chat. I refused to revive them after a couple of my deaths because my damage was 75% and they were making the boss harder for everyone, but unfortunately the healer still revived them after a while. My general rule is that if someone dies more than 3 times in the same fight, I stop reviving them because it's not worth the risk.

Artim_X · May 14

In vet content! That's illegal!

Soarora · May 14

Estin wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

I've been in dungeons where my DPS is 85% because the other DD is using a Xynode build, or where DD's will use Pale Order and constantly die to mechanics that could've been healed through. The dungeons are easier when you leave them dead.

so true, tbh I have asked the group to leave players dead that keep messing up immolate trap etc. It will take longer but at least it will be over.

Did that dungeon for the first time on vet the other day since it was the pledge. It was easy, but me and the healer died something like 8 times between us in the 2 attempts it took for the last boss because the other DD kept backing up at 100MPH whenever the trap spawned on them. Even after telling them to stop moving, they still freaked out whenever the AOE started to spawn on them and never replied in chat. I refused to revive them after a couple of my deaths because my damage was 75% and they were making the boss harder for everyone, but unfortunately the healer still revived them after a while. My general rule is that if someone dies more than 3 times in the same fight, I stop reviving them because it's not worth the risk.

Whenever people are like that with that mechanic I stand on the other side of the arena, saves you from getting killed by the blast. Technically you can get out of the trap but it seems to only work sometimes?

Desiato · May 14

Amottica wrote: »

Sadly, a large number of tanks and healers avoid using the GF to form their group in its entirety because of how bad those groups can be. I have seen DPS that could not kill bosses with a heal mechanism. I used to consider the low damage groups a good test of managing my resources, but it got old taunting the same trash boss adds multiple times because the group damage was that low.

I used to enjoy vet randoms. I did learn to avoid them on weekends though. However, over the past six months, getting 5-10k dps damage dealers became the norm instead of the exception.

IMO, ZOS should introduce new players to the concept of dummy parsing. It should be part of the undaunted onboarding. Overland content is so easy that many players probably have very bad builds for vet content without realizing it.

Providing them with a performance evaluation would inform them of possible shortcomings and thereby give them an opportunity to address them if they want to. Part of this process would also suggest what their dps should be for different types of content -- numbers ZOS designers should already have.

On top of that, I believe every boss in the game should have a help window within the game that gives players some clue about what to expect. Something that isn't too information dense that is quickly consumed. It would also serve as a reminder for experienced players.

I know some people will think I'm shaming low dps players, but that is not my intent. I understand that ESO is a complex game and takes a lot of time and effort to fully grasp. I expect very few players to learn how everything works because it takes a lot of effort and constantly changes. So the goal of my suggestions is to help those players more easily fully actualize as players and have good vet experiences.

Soarora wrote: »

Sometimes people queue vet on accident but it does seem like theres this strange population of low cp mediocre skill players who think they can fake tank even though they aren’t even a good DPS let alone a tank.

I am finding this on randoms of all kinds. A common issue I've had lately are other players who taunt when I tank... It's no big deal because they're normals, but the reason I tank is so I can control the fights properly so they end sooner. I can't stand any fight featuring the boss chasing as dps around the room.

Estin · May 14

Desiato wrote: »

I used to enjoy vet randoms. I did learn to avoid them on weekends though. However, over the past six months, getting 5-10k dps damage dealers became the norm instead of the exception.

IMO, ZOS should introduce new players to the concept of dummy parsing. It should be part of the undaunted onboarding. Overland content is so easy that many players probably have very bad builds for vet content without realizing it.

Providing them with a performance evaluation would inform them of possible shortcomings and thereby give them an opportunity to address them if they want to. Part of this process would also suggest what their dps should be for different types of content -- numbers ZOS designers should already have.

On top of that, I believe every boss in the game should have a help window within the game that gives players some clue about what to expect. Something that isn't too information dense that is quickly consumed. It would also serve as a reminder for experienced players.

I know some people will think I'm shaming low dps players, but that is not my intent. I understand that ESO is a complex game and takes a lot of time and effort to fully grasp. I expect very few players to learn how everything works because it takes a lot of effort and constantly changes. So the goal of my suggestions is to help those players more easily fully actualize as players and have good vet experiences.

It's kind of a shame that ZOS doesn't teach players how to play the MMO side of the game. A lot of players are coming to the game solely for the overland content which allowed ZOS to push teaching the MMO portion of the game to the side since it had a much lower draw, but that is what has caused such a large gap in skill, even for something as simple as normal trials. It also doesn't help that the google and youtube algorithm is so messed up with outdated and straight up bad information. If you look up ESO builds, you're going to get Alcast, Hack The Minotaur, Xynode, Lucky Ghost, Deltia, and Azrael. All of their builds are straight up outdated or bad, but the players using their builds don't know this, and most don't even teach you how to play the build or why it works, so you end up getting a lot of players in bad builds firing random skills. I'm glad that Hyperioxes is starting to taking over the youtube algorithm, at least for me though. He actually tests the builds he puts together and tells you how and why it works.

Honestly, it will take a lot of work to provide in game info so players don't have to look for outside resources. One of the more annoying things about vet content is no way of knowing the mechanics before experiencing them. Normal mode is such a stack and burn heal fest that mechanics don't matter. I would love if the game had an in game knowledge base that showed every mechanic a boss does with a brief description of what it does and a short 3-5 second video of what it looks like. It would help so much. Again, I'm glad Hyperioxes is starting to take over the youtube algorithm because his dungeon mechanic videos are exactly what I'm talking about, specifically the part where he describes each mechanic a boss has in under 5 minutes.

And it's harsh, but a barrier of entry should be added to vet content for each role. DPS should be a parse of at least 25k on an undaunted equivalent of a 3m dummy, healers should have to buff and keep a group of NPCs alive while they fight a boss, and tanks should have to stay alive without letting a group of NPCs get hit while fighting a boss and debuff it. Not only would it help players learn and get better at their role for difficult content without needing to enter a live environment, but it would also filter out the players who don't have a reason to be in there whether by mistake or straight up not good at their role. It would solve the fake tank/healer issue too, because if they fail the tank or healer test, they won't be able to queue as one for vet content.