Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

Wait, if you block you can still get matched in the same group? I don't use the blocking system myself so I did not know this. I thought that of course you won't be matched with anyone you have blocked.

So... what does block do? Just prevents whispers and mails?

I agree OP it is truly maddening as a healer main when someone queues as a tank but is a DPS without a taunt. I’m a healer main and if they slot a taunt I’ll do my darndest to keep them alive but I cannot do my job when the boss is focusing me or running around the map attacking everyone making them scatter because we don’t have a real tank. When it comes to vet DLC we absolutely need a real tank and they know that since most of the time they’ll drop as soon as the dungeon is a DLC dungeon. The whole fake tank things is so rude and disrespectful of the time of other players. Normally my tank companion is better than a fake tank but on DLC vet dungeons it’s not very successful.

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The dps que is 20 min bcs everyone and their mom plays a dps, if you want lower que times than maybe you should take one for the team and learn to tank instead of complaining about other people skipping the que

Him(OP) sitting out the queue makes him a victim, not the problem. The problem is players skipping the line when they should not be able to! OP has already demonstrated they were willing to sit out the 20 min queue, only to be a victim of someone else skipping the line. Causing a bad experience for the OP or another 20 min queue.

This(fake role/speedrunner) should just simply not be pssible to do! Stop making excuses for these types of players, they do not care about the community or other player's time at all. And should not be playing an MMO.

As others have said, you could always slot a taunt and basically nothing outside of recently released vet dlc dungeons can really kill you if you block the heavy attack, and losing a tank for a dps in pug runs should gain you dps theoretically bcs most pug tanks don’t even wear the right sets to give you the buffs your after

And it’s only possible bcs of the class system of everyone can be everything we have in eso, want fake tanks gone? Fix the class design

"You could always slot a taunt?"... that is what the tank is for! If the OP were to slot a taunt and queue, why on earth would he queue for a dps instead of a tank?

It is not unreasonable and not unfair to expect someone to play the role they signed up for.

ZOS likes to promote "play how you want", but at the same time they allow one person grouping up as a fake role or speedrunner, to NOT allow three others to "play how they want", the role they want to play.

"Play how you want" does not work in mmo groupsettings, as it causes griefing and toxic behaviour. This is why all other mmo's have safeguards in place to prevent this. ZOS needs to introduce those safeguards as well. It is better to have to force one person somewhat how to play a role they actively sign up for, than it is to have three others be unable to play how they want to play.

All these fake role players could slot a taunt or heal if they sign up for the tank or heal role, as you said, they have the same toolkit! "Everyone can be everything we have in eso" goes both ways. Saying this makes the fake role players feel even more toxic, as you as well are stating this is an active choice they make to not perform the role they signed up for. After all, they could simply slot a taunt! (has nothing to do with classdesign)

The fake role and speedrun players could choose to use the groupfinder to find three likeminded players for a grouprun, but they purposely make the choice to be toxic to three random other players by using the dungeonfinder. Three other players who did wait out their long queue. These fake role/speedrun players made it a choice to be toxic to other players, which is very telling for why we need those safeguards asap!

The current grouping situation needs to be fixed, I do not even care how. Just as long as griefing and toxicity is no longer possible. ZOS wants new players to play ESO, but one bad dungeon experience will make them drop the game instantly. Even I often log off after experiencing crap like this.

frogthroat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

Wait, if you block you can still get matched in the same group? I don't use the blocking system myself so I did not know this. I thought that of course you won't be matched with anyone you have blocked.

So... what does block do? Just prevents whispers and mails?

Yes. Might block them from your house too but I’m not sure.

Oh and you can’t see their messages in chats.

I would have thought it also prevents the group finder from placing you in the same team. I don't really block anyone, ever, in any social media or otherwise so I didn't know how it works exactly. But I thought it blocks all the text based communication (which seems to be the only thing it blocks) but also all automated group finder things. If it is the behaviour you don't like, then it seems block does nothing.

yes it blocks out thier conversation which is silly really, especially in circumastances where a player has been blocked due to treatment of another player other than ourselves and been forgotten in the block list some time later and ended up in same group without realizing. should be a way to make it stop being grouped with them altogether

frogthroat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Making players you have blocked not match make would be the greatest QOL addition of the games lifetime to me.

Wait, if you block you can still get matched in the same group? I don't use the blocking system myself so I did not know this. I thought that of course you won't be matched with anyone you have blocked.

So... what does block do? Just prevents whispers and mails?

Yes. Might block them from your house too but I’m not sure.

Oh and you can’t see their messages in chats.

I would have thought it also prevents the group finder from placing you in the same team. I don't really block anyone, ever, in any social media or otherwise so I didn't know how it works exactly. But I thought it blocks all the text based communication (which seems to be the only thing it blocks) but also all automated group finder things. If it is the behaviour you don't like, then it seems block does nothing.

Ya most games it does all that, but in ESO if you get matched with someone who you have blocked, you don't even block their messages anymore. They can still communicate to you in group chat, even if it is toxic, racist, or harassing.

Carcamongus wrote: »

It's just baffling people actually fake-role for vet dungeons. Yes, for some dungeons a taunt or some moderate healing will be enough, but the odds aren't favorable: there are more DLC ones than non-DLC and the former usually have more demanding mechanics. This is a problem that's hard to fix. I doubt reporting would do much good, especially since it could be abused and there's the issue of knowing the difference between a fake and an unprepared player. How do you convince more people to run support roles so queues don't take nearly as long? That points to the question of why more people don't choose support roles. I'm a tank who can't DPS to save his life, so I can't answer that.

The main issue is that there is a large spread in difficulty, players of all roles queuing for content they are potentially not ready for, and the population that actually want to play support roles is very small.

Breaking up dungeons into base game and dlc could help via random: random vet base game, random vet dlc (same with normal). Vet base game don't need a tank, or a group for that matter most of the time unless there is some sort of mech that needs a synergy, lever, or such.

Tanking is much harder to adapt to as well with difficulty, healers not so much. A hybrid can heal most non HM DLC content, I'm sure some high end players could do it as tank but it is much rougher.

Lately I have been seeing a lot of players under 500CP in Vet DLC dungeons, a good sign for the game population but it is rougher for the random successes. You are missing many passives or even slotted CP at those levels. If it is a good group my hyrbid should be doing ~20-30% dps, with the lower CP's it starts creeping up. 500CP tank is just rough usually, they don't know the mechs often and such. It is what it is, if it becomes not fun leaving the group is always and option.

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

So instead of being elitist and block every bad player, you can just try to give them some hints.

What makes you think I didn't and they still ignored it or didn't understand English? The ignore list is too small to ignore every bad player, if the person was a guild mate I would feel much more invested in helping them learn. I am just there to have some fun and don't want to switch to keyboard and most 90% of the time to communicate all that stuff.

Someone mentioned that it was their first time doing Oathsworn pit, and I was just there farming motifs. I took the time to give the basics of the mechs, which almost got me killed a few times since the tank pulled before I could switch controls. I don't really want to do that every run though, but if someone communicates they need help I'll try. At least that person was fairly competent with basics and was doing pretty decent dps.

I've had groups where one person just will not listen (vSH immolate traps). The group has explained to stay in the circles 3-5+ times and they have wiped the group 3-5+ times. There is only so much you can do in some cases.

On my first weeks I also didn't know how to break free or roll dodge.

my comments were referring to vet DLC mostly, people are doing vet DLC and not understanding those basics.

Fake tanking is a thing in this game because the game is really easy. Nothing really punishes someone with damage...especially since a lot of the content can be steam rolled with so much dps.

With subclassing and raising the dps ceiling so much more...this problem is about to get a whole lot worst. To be honest...what would the point of a tank or a healer be? Do you think you need one in normal dungeons now? What do people think is going to happen when current vet is turned into tomorrows normal with subclassing? As it is today, almost every vet dungeon can be soloed and that is about to become easier for the majority of players.

Makes me long for the days of other mmos where if a dps ran ahead of the tank they got smacked and taught a lesson not to do that again. Here, people are babied so this behavior continues and if anything, it gets encouraged.

I've been doing all dungeons on vet for the past month now and I can honestly say there are quite a few people who shouldn't be stepping foot in a vet dungeon yet. I've seen tanks who would walk right into obvious AOEs and die multiple times because of it, or miss an attack that has to be dodged (Dungeons like Graven Deep and Shipwright's Regret). I've been in dungeons where my DPS is 85% because the other DD is using a Xynode build, or where DD's will use Pale Order and constantly die to mechanics that could've been healed through. The dungeons are easier when you leave them dead.

For the most part, vet dungeons and their mechanics are easy. Hard modes are a different story, but don't take long to learn. If you ever plan on going into a vet DLC dungeon, watch a mechanics video before going in, and if you're on PC, get Code's Combat Alerts so you can know what is happening. Don't just hope in and try to learn on the fly. On average, non HM vet DLC dungeons take 15-20 minute to finish. Don't contribute to the timer reaching 40+ minutes because you didn't want to take the time to research.

Estin wrote: »

I've been in dungeons where my DPS is 85% because the other DD is using a Xynode build, or where DD's will use Pale Order and constantly die to mechanics that could've been healed through. The dungeons are easier when you leave them dead.

so true, tbh I have asked the group to leave players dead that keep messing up immolate trap etc. It will take longer but at least it will be over.

icapital wrote: »

why cant we just report fake tanks for like player griefing or something? it's taking away from our experience.

I mean you can, but it is just clogging up the support system. It isn't really against the rules, at least I haven't seen any response from ZoS about it. Griefing is a stretch, there would be a ton of bans for griefing at that rate.

Orbital78 wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

I've been in dungeons where my DPS is 85% because the other DD is using a Xynode build, or where DD's will use Pale Order and constantly die to mechanics that could've been healed through. The dungeons are easier when you leave them dead.

so true, tbh I have asked the group to leave players dead that keep messing up immolate trap etc. It will take longer but at least it will be over.

icapital wrote: »

why cant we just report fake tanks for like player griefing or something? it's taking away from our experience.

I mean you can, but it is just clogging up the support system. It isn't really against the rules, at least I haven't seen any response from ZoS about it. Griefing is a stretch, there would be a ton of bans for griefing at that rate.

lol...but that's kind of the point, right? there would be a ton of them because it's an annoying practice to lie about your tankability lol...

Orbital78 wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

I've been in dungeons where my DPS is 85% because the other DD is using a Xynode build, or where DD's will use Pale Order and constantly die to mechanics that could've been healed through. The dungeons are easier when you leave them dead.

so true, tbh I have asked the group to leave players dead that keep messing up immolate trap etc. It will take longer but at least it will be over.

Did that dungeon for the first time on vet the other day since it was the pledge. It was easy, but me and the healer died something like 8 times between us in the 2 attempts it took for the last boss because the other DD kept backing up at 100MPH whenever the trap spawned on them. Even after telling them to stop moving, they still freaked out whenever the AOE started to spawn on them and never replied in chat. I refused to revive them after a couple of my deaths because my damage was 75% and they were making the boss harder for everyone, but unfortunately the healer still revived them after a while. My general rule is that if someone dies more than 3 times in the same fight, I stop reviving them because it's not worth the risk.

Estin wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

I've been in dungeons where my DPS is 85% because the other DD is using a Xynode build, or where DD's will use Pale Order and constantly die to mechanics that could've been healed through. The dungeons are easier when you leave them dead.

so true, tbh I have asked the group to leave players dead that keep messing up immolate trap etc. It will take longer but at least it will be over.

Did that dungeon for the first time on vet the other day since it was the pledge. It was easy, but me and the healer died something like 8 times between us in the 2 attempts it took for the last boss because the other DD kept backing up at 100MPH whenever the trap spawned on them. Even after telling them to stop moving, they still freaked out whenever the AOE started to spawn on them and never replied in chat. I refused to revive them after a couple of my deaths because my damage was 75% and they were making the boss harder for everyone, but unfortunately the healer still revived them after a while. My general rule is that if someone dies more than 3 times in the same fight, I stop reviving them because it's not worth the risk.

Whenever people are like that with that mechanic I stand on the other side of the arena, saves you from getting killed by the blast. Technically you can get out of the trap but it seems to only work sometimes?

Desiato wrote: »

I used to enjoy vet randoms. I did learn to avoid them on weekends though. However, over the past six months, getting 5-10k dps damage dealers became the norm instead of the exception.

IMO, ZOS should introduce new players to the concept of dummy parsing. It should be part of the undaunted onboarding. Overland content is so easy that many players probably have very bad builds for vet content without realizing it.

Providing them with a performance evaluation would inform them of possible shortcomings and thereby give them an opportunity to address them if they want to. Part of this process would also suggest what their dps should be for different types of content -- numbers ZOS designers should already have.

On top of that, I believe every boss in the game should have a help window within the game that gives players some clue about what to expect. Something that isn't too information dense that is quickly consumed. It would also serve as a reminder for experienced players.

I know some people will think I'm shaming low dps players, but that is not my intent. I understand that ESO is a complex game and takes a lot of time and effort to fully grasp. I expect very few players to learn how everything works because it takes a lot of effort and constantly changes. So the goal of my suggestions is to help those players more easily fully actualize as players and have good vet experiences.

It's kind of a shame that ZOS doesn't teach players how to play the MMO side of the game. A lot of players are coming to the game solely for the overland content which allowed ZOS to push teaching the MMO portion of the game to the side since it had a much lower draw, but that is what has caused such a large gap in skill, even for something as simple as normal trials. It also doesn't help that the google and youtube algorithm is so messed up with outdated and straight up bad information. If you look up ESO builds, you're going to get Alcast, Hack The Minotaur, Xynode, Lucky Ghost, Deltia, and Azrael. All of their builds are straight up outdated or bad, but the players using their builds don't know this, and most don't even teach you how to play the build or why it works, so you end up getting a lot of players in bad builds firing random skills. I'm glad that Hyperioxes is starting to taking over the youtube algorithm, at least for me though. He actually tests the builds he puts together and tells you how and why it works.

Honestly, it will take a lot of work to provide in game info so players don't have to look for outside resources. One of the more annoying things about vet content is no way of knowing the mechanics before experiencing them. Normal mode is such a stack and burn heal fest that mechanics don't matter. I would love if the game had an in game knowledge base that showed every mechanic a boss does with a brief description of what it does and a short 3-5 second video of what it looks like. It would help so much. Again, I'm glad Hyperioxes is starting to take over the youtube algorithm because his dungeon mechanic videos are exactly what I'm talking about, specifically the part where he describes each mechanic a boss has in under 5 minutes.

And it's harsh, but a barrier of entry should be added to vet content for each role. DPS should be a parse of at least 25k on an undaunted equivalent of a 3m dummy, healers should have to buff and keep a group of NPCs alive while they fight a boss, and tanks should have to stay alive without letting a group of NPCs get hit while fighting a boss and debuff it. Not only would it help players learn and get better at their role for difficult content without needing to enter a live environment, but it would also filter out the players who don't have a reason to be in there whether by mistake or straight up not good at their role. It would solve the fake tank/healer issue too, because if they fail the tank or healer test, they won't be able to queue as one for vet content.