[Suggestion] Prevent Crux Generation While Arcanist Beam Is Channeling

randconfig · May 10

I think this would address the fundamental problem with the ability in end game builds, where you literally just repeat cast the beam as you'll have generated 3 crux over the duration from other class abilities and class mastery. This type of gameplay has become meta and is rightfully hated by the community as it's really repetitive to play, not fun to see visually, and seems to make new players feel insignificant in normal dungeon queues..

Anyway, thoughts?

spartaxoxo · May 10

No

I think class identity is gutted enough without changing the core gameplay loop of any of the pure classes.

Erickson9610 · May 10

Other

I think Class Mastery across all classes should just be a generic buff to Class ability effectiveness. That would remove the Crux generation from Arcanist's Class Mastery.

mdjessup4906 · May 10

No

All this does is make class mastery on banner useless. If your weaving right, (yes you do actually weave on arc), your beaming almost every other gcd. Exactly when is it supposed to proc then?
I love my arc, i love banner, and most importantly, i hate trap beast and banner let's me dump that stupid skill. The "community" can go to Coldharbor.

Edit:
Rereading the tool tips, this would make that almost never proc for tome bearers inspo and crux armor for the same reason. So yay constant triple spam flail is so much more engaging right.

Sarannah · May 10

No

Really do not understand why so many players seem to have an issue with how the arcanist plays, and keep asking for nerfs for this class.

It isn't the high damage that makes the arcanist fun to play, it is mostly the simplicity/accessibility. Seriously, not many players use light attack weaving, bar swapping, or animation canceling in this game at all. So making the arcanist a class that does not require those things, is golden. Every class should have a similar working skill like that, a channel that does their main damage and where players can build around.

Granting more simplicity/accessibility to classes, will only grow the endgame community.

PS: Many players will probably subclass into arcanist due to the simplicity and accessibility this class offers, including me. Therefor I want all classes to have access to a similar build idea, around a steady channel to deal damage(just different from a beam). Example: Sorc could have something like a lightningstorm channel, warden a snowstorm channel, nightblade a flying knives channel, etc. Similar simplicity/accessible build idea, just different.
PPS: This type of build is NOT hated by me! (Note: Players often claim player dps is low, but when ZOS creates something to raise the dps, players beg to get it nerfed. Higher overall dps is good for the game and endgame community.)

LunaFlora · May 10

No

Sarannah wrote: »

Really do not understand why so many players seem to have an issue with how the arcanist plays, and keep asking for nerfs for this class.

It isn't the high damage that makes the arcanist fun to play, it is mostly the simplicity/accessibility. Seriously, not many players use light attack weaving, bar swapping, or animation canceling in this game at all. So making the arcanist a class that does not require those things, is golden. Every class should have a similar working skill like that, a channel that does their main damage and where players can build around.

Granting more simplicity/accessibility to classes, will only grow the endgame community.

PS: Many players will probably subclass into arcanist due to the simplicity and accessibility this class offers, including me. Therefor I want all classes to have access to a similar build idea, around a steady channel to deal damage(just different from a beam). Example: Sorc could have something like a lightningstorm channel, warden a snowstorm channel, nightblade a flying knives channel, etc. Similar simplicity/accessible build idea, just different.
PPS: This type of build is NOT hated by me! (Note: Players often claim player dps is low, but when ZOS creates something to raise the dps, players beg to get it nerfed. Higher overall dps is good for the game and endgame community.)

i agree completely and every class having a channel like Fatecarver would be so nice yes.

peacenote · May 10

No

Sorry but I just don't agree with any part of the premise of the poll. I like arcanist the way it is.

Major_Mangle · May 10

Yes

Sarannah wrote: »

Really do not understand why so many players seem to have an issue with how the arcanist plays, and keep asking for nerfs for this class....

Because the "effort to outcome" ratio is so ridiculously disproportionate. I´ve little issues with a class like arcanist being simple to play (even though I would´ve preferred if ZOS had made the class more complex with the crux system), but then it should come with some trade-offs to performance. A class with more difficult rotation/gameplay should feel more rewarding to play, in my opinion (it´s fine to have different takes on this, just how I like things to be). But a class with a rotation that is on the same difficulty level as a onebar/heavy attack build should not perform as well as something that requires more effort to play.

If something is super easy to play and also has one of the highest potential outcomes, then you´ve got fewer reasons to play other classes. Now when it comes to arcanist, the class itself is not 100% to blame, but a big issue is how ZOS design new content. If all trials and dungeons are heavily focused on trash- and AoE (where cleave damage is a necessity), then arcanist becomes the most obvious pick. Would be nice if ZOS could move away from the current trial/dungeon design and have fights that are more centered on single target fights, just to have some more diversity in what you bring to encounters.

RealLoveBVB · May 10

No

randconfig wrote: »

This type of gameplay has become meta and is rightfully hated by the community[...]

Never heard or read before, that it is hated.

Eventho the beam is strong, it still have its negative points.
I don't play arc myself, but I often see in mech-heavy content, that they are not really flexible, as they have to cancel their beam very often, as they have to block, dodge or doing something else... and those who don't do that are often just dying.

Nightblades are outparsing any single target boss, so it's not like they are the non plus ultra right now.

So it can stay as it is, eventho I want my team mates less dying to stuff, while they are beaming :P

DenverRalphy · May 10

No

Arcanists can typically only generate 1 crux over the course of the beam, not 3. There is one exception, but it's a wash.

The only skills that passively grant a crux are Tome-Bearer's/morphs which grants a crux each 3 seconds "only if the Arcanist has none", and the arcanist class mastery script which creates a crux every 3 seconds if you attach it to banner bearer. Due to the 3 second time requirement for the passive crux generation, they can only trigger once during the course of the beam. If you attach it to banner bearer then Tome-Bearer's won't generate a crux due to it's conditional trigger. There's a 1 in 6 chance that banner bearer can generate a 2nd crux only if the first crux is generated within the 1st second of fatercarver's beam, but should that happen the arcanist would only fire 1 Flail instead of 2, and the damage not done by a 2nd cast of Flail would counterbalance the damage increase the extra generated crux gave them.

The other arcanist crux generator skills have to be cast and thus can't generate during the arcanist's fatecarver beam.

randconfig · May 10

Yes

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Arcanists can typically only generate 1 crux over the course of the beam, not 3. There is one exception, but it's a wash.

The only skills that passively grant a crux are Tome-Bearer's/morphs which grants a crux each 3 seconds "only if the Arcanist has none", and the arcanist class mastery script which creates a crux every 3 seconds if you attach it to banner bearer. Due to the 3 second time requirement for the passive crux generation, they can only trigger once during the course of the beam. If you attach it to banner bearer then Tome-Bearer's won't generate a crux due to it's conditional trigger. There's a 1 in 6 chance that banner bearer can generate a 2nd crux only if the first crux is generated within the 1st second of fatercarver's beam, but should that happen the arcanist would only fire 1 Flail instead of 2, and the damage not done by a 2nd cast of Flail would counterbalance the damage increase the extra generated crux gave them.

The other arcanist crux generator skills have to be cast and thus can't generate during the arcanist's fatecarver beam.

Cruxweaver Armor = Crux when hit
Tome-Bearer's Inspiration = Crux when attacking
Banner bearer = Crux every 5 seconds

And if you remove banner, you just weave in one other ability in-between beam casts. How is that fun or engaging gameplay, how is that balanced?

Dino-Jr · May 10

i think there likely should be a skill or morph available that disables crux generation out right almost as a toggle. without that there are all kinds of arcanists skills that will be goofy to use via sub-classing.

Soarora · May 10

No

Crux generation is not the problem with arcanist, the gameplay’s been pretty much the same no matter if you’re flail beaming or flail flail beaming. I would argue inconsistent crux generation is part of what makes arcanist harder to master.

mrreow · May 10

The problem with arcanist is that arcanist is a beam. Make it meh and honestly what else is there?

So they made a class around one powerful ability as it very often happens in eso and isn’t necessarily bad. It’s cool to have some signature identity skills.

However it is bad when we have multiclassing incoming and every other class will suddenly have access to the beam that was supposed to be the shtick of arcanist.

Now it is going to be shtick of all the builds. Honestly I am not sure why anyone would consider multi classing in its current form a good idea.

Joy_Division · May 10

Yes

As some who likes playing an Arcanist, I think it's silly an Arcanist can build crux while using a mechanic that consumes crux.

I also think it's silly that a scribing skill meant to support a group would become meta to buff solo damage. Meanwhile, all the actual damage scribing skills are garbage.

I don't want my class skills nerfed because of a class mastery script.

randconfig · May 10

Yes

Joy_Division wrote: »

As some who likes playing an Arcanist, I think it's silly an Arcanist can build crux while using a mechanic that consumes crux.

I also think it's silly that a scribing skill meant to support a group would become meta to buff solo damage. Meanwhile, all the actual damage scribing skills are garbage.

I don't want my class skills nerfed because of a class mastery script.

Exactly, I also play Acanist, second to my Necromancer main, but it's disgusting how much better the beam in comparison to the Tentacular Dread Crux consumer ability (WHICH IS ALSO STILL BUGGED WITH TOME-BEARER'S INSPIRATION).

The problem is the stupid beam generating crux while it's channeling over 4.5 seconds. If they were to touch the Acanist class mastery script, it would kill any variety in the class, just spam beam always. Honestly can't enjoy the class because of the beam, and it's clearly overperforming, everyone is running it.

randconfig · May 10

Yes

mrreow wrote: »

The problem with arcanist is that arcanist is a beam. Make it meh and honestly what else is there?

So they made a class around one powerful ability as it very often happens in eso and isn’t necessarily bad. It’s cool to have some signature identity skills.

However it is bad when we have multiclassing incoming and every other class will suddenly have access to the beam that was supposed to be the shtick of arcanist.

Now it is going to be shtick of all the builds. Honestly I am not sure why anyone would consider multi classing in its current form a good idea.

I don't disagree, Tentacular Dread (the only other dps crux consumer ability) is incredibly weak in comparison and it's interaction with Tome-Bearer's Inspiration continues to be bugged on live and PTS (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/674297/bug-arcanist-tome-bearers-inspiration-crux-generated-not-working-correctly).

@ZOS_Kevin if you guys opt to not nerf the beam, can you at least fix the tome-bearer's inspiration crux generation bug with the Tentacular Dread morphed ability?

Desiato · May 10

Yes

Tentatuclar Dread isn't weak. It just doesn't fit in with the typical raid spec Arc. It's probably the preferred morph for pvp.

And believe it or not, there have been non-beam builds that parse very well in PVE.

It's important to remember that Arc isn't so widely played in trials because it's the best dps class across the board. Actual score pushing groups demonstrate this. Arc is so widely played because it's foolproof.

tsaescishoeshiner · May 10

No

I would rather Tentacular Dread be majorly buffed to add variety to Arcanist playstyles, if not a third offensive crux spender as well. Or, they could make one of the morphs of Fatecarver have a different playstyle, like a much shorter cast time, or make it summon a floating tome that deals AoE damage based on your crux count instead of having to channel it (for reduced damage).

I do prefer the flow of casting at least one ability in between beams (which you'll always have to do in order to set down DoTs).

Desiato · May 10

Yes

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I do prefer the flow of casting at least one ability in between beams (which you'll always have to do in order to set down DoTs).

Using exhausting instead of pragmatic, I usually fill 3 crux before the beam is complete, so my rotation is often something like this:

- quick cloak
- scholarship
- caltrops
- blockade
- flail
- beam
- beam
- beam
- repeat

Occasionally I need to throw in another flail or choose to rebuff prematurely. With pragmatic, it becomes flail beam.

DenverRalphy · May 11

No

randconfig wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Arcanists can typically only generate 1 crux over the course of the beam, not 3. There is one exception, but it's a wash.

The only skills that passively grant a crux are Tome-Bearer's/morphs which grants a crux each 3 seconds "only if the Arcanist has none", and the arcanist class mastery script which creates a crux every 3 seconds if you attach it to banner bearer. Due to the 3 second time requirement for the passive crux generation, they can only trigger once during the course of the beam. If you attach it to banner bearer then Tome-Bearer's won't generate a crux due to it's conditional trigger. There's a 1 in 6 chance that banner bearer can generate a 2nd crux only if the first crux is generated within the 1st second of fatercarver's beam, but should that happen the arcanist would only fire 1 Flail instead of 2, and the damage not done by a 2nd cast of Flail would counterbalance the damage increase the extra generated crux gave them.

The other arcanist crux generator skills have to be cast and thus can't generate during the arcanist's fatecarver beam.

Cruxweaver Armor = Crux when hit
Tome-Bearer's Inspiration = Crux when attacking
Banner bearer = Crux every 5 seconds

And if you remove banner, you just weave in one other ability in-between beam casts. How is that fun or engaging gameplay, how is that balanced?

Cruxweaver doesn't passively generate crux. You have to get hit for it to trigger. And when you get hit the beam stops any generation of crux from Tome Bearer's buff. Again leaving you in the exact same scenario in the comment you quoted.

Arcanists aren't just runniing around generating crux willy nilly. It's a resource they have to manage.

I'm by no means sympathizing with Arcanists. I'm simply pointing out that their dominance in their sustained burst dps is not due to any overabundance of crux.

Desiato · May 11

Yes

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm by no means sympathizing with Arcanists. I'm simply pointing out that their dominance in their sustained burst dps is not due to any overabundance of crux.

Have you played a typical raid arc with banner?

Arc was already very good before banner was introduced. Then, without cruxweaver, at least we would flail twice between beams. With banner, we can hit full crux while beaming just from scholarship and banner.

randconfig · May 11

Yes

Desiato wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm by no means sympathizing with Arcanists. I'm simply pointing out that their dominance in their sustained burst dps is not due to any overabundance of crux.

Have you played a typical raid arc with banner?

Arc was already very good before banner was introduced. Then, without cruxweaver, at least we would flail twice between beams. With banner, we can hit full crux while beaming just from scholarship and banner.

This. Play the current Arcanist into end game, or rush an end game build on a new Arcanist if you already have Class Mastery unlocked. It's literally braindead stupid to play and outperforms every other dps.

sarahthes · May 11

No

You would have to triple flail per beam most of the time. This isn't actually sustainable, so to make this change, arcanist would be a dead class and no longer playable.

GloatingSwine · May 11

randconfig wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm by no means sympathizing with Arcanists. I'm simply pointing out that their dominance in their sustained burst dps is not due to any overabundance of crux.

Have you played a typical raid arc with banner?

Arc was already very good before banner was introduced. Then, without cruxweaver, at least we would flail twice between beams. With banner, we can hit full crux while beaming just from scholarship and banner.

This. Play the current Arcanist into end game, or rush an end game build on a new Arcanist if you already have Class Mastery unlocked. It's literally braindead stupid to play and outperforms every other dps.

My understanding is that Arcanist doesn't neccessarily outperform all other DPS in terms of doing more damage, but because it does all of its damage as cleave damage.

That being the case, maybe the answer is to change how crux bonus damage on beam works to make it less good at cleave whilst still retaining single target. (eg. an amount of damage that gets split between targets in the beam not +100% to all, or a small AoE focused on the first target hit so it's still cleaving bunched enemies but if they're spread out only one gets full force).

randconfig · May 11

Yes

sarahthes wrote: »

You would have to triple flail per beam most of the time. This isn't actually sustainable, so to make this change, arcanist would be a dead class and no longer playable.

That's insane to me. Why would you rely only on a stamina spammable to generate crux for a magicka build (assuming magicka since you said it's not sustainable)?

Use your class skills, tome inspiration, cruxweaver armor, and any one of the spammables for magicka to generate crux. You would need like 1-2 casts at most before beaming again with full crux. There's no reason you need to generate the crux during the beam, that's the fundamental problem with the ability. The DPS numbers and cleave/enemies hit can be adjusted to balance the spell, but fundamentally/functionally, it should not let you generate crux while channeling it.

DenverRalphy · May 11

No

Desiato wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm by no means sympathizing with Arcanists. I'm simply pointing out that their dominance in their sustained burst dps is not due to any overabundance of crux.

Have you played a typical raid arc with banner?

Arc was already very good before banner was introduced. Then, without cruxweaver, at least we would flail twice between beams. With banner, we can hit full crux while beaming just from scholarship and banner.

Actually, I main an Arcanist, so yeah I have.

And no you can't hit full crux while using fatecarver just from scholarship and banner bearer. First of all, banner would have to fire twice. That can only happen if banner's timed buff generates one immediately after fatecarver is fired. The odds of that happening are nowhere near close enough to being considered reliable. And in those very rare instances where it does? And if Banner Bearer does fire first, Tome bearer can't because it's conditional on the Arcanist having zero crux. That leaves the condition that Tome Bearer fires first during the beam then Banner Bearer firing after that, that's two and not enough time left on the beam to generate a 3rd.

randconfig · May 11

Yes

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm by no means sympathizing with Arcanists. I'm simply pointing out that their dominance in their sustained burst dps is not due to any overabundance of crux.

Have you played a typical raid arc with banner?

Arc was already very good before banner was introduced. Then, without cruxweaver, at least we would flail twice between beams. With banner, we can hit full crux while beaming just from scholarship and banner.

Actually, I main an Arcanist, so yeah I have.

And no you can't hit full crux while using fatecarver just from scholarship and banner bearer. First of all, banner would have to fire twice. That can only happen if banner's timed buff generates one immediately after fatecarver is fired. The odds of that happening are nowhere near close enough to being considered reliable. And in those very rare instances where it does? And if Banner Bearer does fire first, Tome bearer can't because it's conditional on the Arcanist having zero crux. That leaves the condition that Tome Bearer fires first during the beam then Banner Bearer firing after that, that's two and not enough time left on the beam to generate a 3rd.

Sure. Scholarship grants a crux once per 3 seconds if you have none, banner bearer grants one always every 5 seconds, the beam channels for 4.5 seconds, so you would get 2 crux during the beam channel. So you would just need to use a single crux generator ability between beam casts. . .

But if you take into account all Arcanists run Cruxweaver Armor, then you generate 3 crux while the beam channels, and you recast flail like once every 20 seconds or between ads for more free crux, the result is beaming into beam. . .

Furthermore, if instead of "in a vaccum" discussions, you factor in having to roll dodge, activate synergies, interact with boss mechanics, block, or recast buffs and debuffs, there's plenty of time for banner bearer to finish ticking to give you that 3rd crux so you just go back to pressing beam. . .

I genuinely don't understand how you don't see how mind numbingly simple the beam makes the game, and it's the only offensive spell Arcanists use, and it's the dps meta, so all dungeons and trials consist of is just beams everywhere. . .

All of that means is if this change was made to prevent crux generation during the beam, you would continue to get 3 crux by casting 1-2 spells in-between. It would just remove the common occurrence of having 3 crux by the end of the beam channel, so the class is a little less mind numbing to play. . .

randconfig · May 11

Yes

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I think Class Mastery across all classes should just be a generic buff to Class ability effectiveness. That would remove the Crux generation from Arcanist's Class Mastery.

I would prefer this, but only if Arcanist had a passive or ability to allow non-class spammables also generate a crux to compensate for the loss of banner bearer's crux generation.

With the class script as it is, it's mandatory for both Necromancer and Arcanist to run Banner Bearer with class mastery scripts because the micromanagement of corpses with Necromancer and the upcoming nerfs to corpse duration are awful, and Arcanist can't really use any other non-class spammable/setup because all their passives are tied to using the crux mechanic and the only way to generate some crux without class spammables is cruxweaver armor buff. Even scholarship only generates a crux if you use a class ability, and it's also bugged when using tentacular dread as when it procs, it doesn't generate a crux despite it working correctly with the beam lol. . .

Desiato · May 11

Yes

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm by no means sympathizing with Arcanists. I'm simply pointing out that their dominance in their sustained burst dps is not due to any overabundance of crux.

Have you played a typical raid arc with banner?

Arc was already very good before banner was introduced. Then, without cruxweaver, at least we would flail twice between beams. With banner, we can hit full crux while beaming just from scholarship and banner.

Actually, I main an Arcanist, so yeah I have.

And no you can't hit full crux while using fatecarver just from scholarship and banner bearer. First of all, banner would have to fire twice. That can only happen if banner's timed buff generates one immediately after fatecarver is fired. The odds of that happening are nowhere near close enough to being considered reliable. And in those very rare instances where it does? And if Banner Bearer does fire first, Tome bearer can't because it's conditional on the Arcanist having zero crux. That leaves the condition that Tome Bearer fires first during the beam then Banner Bearer firing after that, that's two and not enough time left on the beam to generate a 3rd.

Well, I've been doing it on a regular basis recently with exhausting.

I voted yes because I think a change is necessary, but not necessarily the change proposed. IMO it would be totally fair to take us back to the pre-banner days of crux generation.

The Elder Scrolls Online

[Suggestion] Prevent Crux Generation While Arcanist Beam Is Channeling

[Suggestion] Prevent Crux Generation While Arcanist Beam Is Channeling 72 votes