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Please bring back Vengeance campaign
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MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭From what I have gathered on the pts it is like 80% positive or people hoping for vengeance to be flushed out more. Then there is the other 10-20% who have been vehemently opposed and want their proc set soup back.
Sounds about right.We should use the insightful and awesome buttons more12 -
Navaac223✭✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »From what I have gathered on the pts it is like 80% positive or people hoping for vengeance to be flushed out more. Then there is the other 10-20% who have been vehemently opposed and want their proc set soup back.
Sounds about right.
To be fair, most people in the 20 remaining percent are probably in a situation similar to mine : I want Vengeance back, but with thought put behind the skills we have access to. If there was any ammount of burst or sustain in the test, I wouldn't have spent my week in BGs. The only reason I play pvp is to get better so I don't want to see Cyrodiil replaced with this algorithm :
D={"AD":playercount_AD,"EP":playercount_EP,"DC":playercount_DC}
winner=max(D)
but I do want RoA and ward spamming magsorcs to go, while having a higher player cap. Hey, necro buffs would be cool too but I'm asking for a lot here0 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
To be fair, it's not just proc sets pushing insufferable cheese builds on us, all that obnoxious ranged Sorc spam is thanks to good old fashioned vanilla stat numbers being way too big. Another problem solved by Vengeance.MincMincMinc wrote: »Then there is the other 10-20% who have been vehemently opposed and want their proc set soup back.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP old PvP build system || bring Vengeance4 -
Markytous✭✭✭✭
Vengeance fixes too many problems to count but still I get accused of being a noob PVE-primary player who "wants to be good without doing the time". I'm not surprised but its funny how far the "git gud" culture goes when it comes to proccing to feed one's ego. The gatekeeping, hiding of knowledge for as long as possible when they find something "broken" (imbalanced set or actual bug abuse) and overall acting hostile. When you even so much as suggest something different from that kind of experience, the tears start flowing. Why is it so bad to just end the lag? I've even heard someone say "I never lag in Grey Host". Its disingenuous.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
To be fair, it's not just proc sets pushing insufferable cheese builds on us, all that obnoxious ranged Sorc spam is thanks to good old fashioned vanilla stat numbers being way too big. Another problem solved by Vengeance.MincMincMinc wrote: »Then there is the other 10-20% who have been vehemently opposed and want their proc set soup back.11 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Vengeance fixes too many problems to count but still I get accused of being a noob PVE-primary player who "wants to be good without doing the time". I'm not surprised but its funny how far the "git gud" culture goes when it comes to proccing to feed one's ego. The gatekeeping, hiding of knowledge for as long as possible when they find something "broken" (imbalanced set or actual bug abuse) and overall acting hostile. When you even so much as suggest something different from that kind of experience, the tears start flowing. Why is it so bad to just end the lag? I've even heard someone say "I never lag in Grey Host". Its disingenuous.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
To be fair, it's not just proc sets pushing insufferable cheese builds on us, all that obnoxious ranged Sorc spam is thanks to good old fashioned vanilla stat numbers being way too big. Another problem solved by Vengeance.MincMincMinc wrote: »Then there is the other 10-20% who have been vehemently opposed and want their proc set soup back.
Don't worry what loudmouths say. Just give your feedback. If it is articulate, explains things clearly with evidence/data to support, then that is what matters most.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.10 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah im not to worried about the 3-4 people here on the forums demanding their proc sets back saying vengeance was a failure.
The only thing that matters was that they got good results which they did and the population of players held up interest over the test. All the higher ups want is the performance complaints to stop and to make more money off players.We should use the insightful and awesome buttons more4 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Those players are insecure. I'm a sweatlord with a decade of obsessive minmaxing in this game, Vengeance made me realize I really don't miss sets at all. Dueling in Vengeance felt like a real fighting game (infinite NB sustain aside), way better than on live, smaller fights in general gave decent room for skill expression. Once they add more skill lines and siege engines, players will be able to do more than just faceroll with the zerg in large scale, and Cyro might just come back to life.Vengeance fixes too many problems to count but still I get accused of being a noob PVE-primary player who "wants to be good without doing the time". I'm not surprised but its funny how far the "git gud" culture goes when it comes to proccing to feed one's ego. The gatekeeping, hiding of knowledge for as long as possible when they find something "broken" (imbalanced set or actual bug abuse) and overall acting hostile.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP old PvP build system || bring Vengeance8 -
Doragren✭✭Vengeance was the most fun i had since many years in cyro
Please replace all the campaigns we have right now with this insanely fun and lag/proc free pvp that comes with Vengeance
Edited by Doragren on 4 April 2025 18:297 -
Kamchuk✭✭✭I just responded to an email from Bethesda/ZOS providing feedback on my experience in Vengeance. I encourage all who were there to sign up to receive that feedback invitation and provide your responses to their survey. (ZOS provided a link on how to sign up in their Feedback Thread).
I thought this was the best thing they have done in a long time. If an enhanced version of this PVP model is made permanent, it would be a winning Marketing strategy for Bethesda and a winning environment for the players. Nothing is better than a Win-Win scenario.
7 -
Estin✭✭✭✭✭I posted this in the thank you thread, but I want to post it here too.Even though it was only made to be a test, Vengeance has a lot of potential as a separate game mode, but right now that's all that it has. I had fun with it, but only for about an hour or so because nothing really goes differently due to it being a numbers game and no individuality. Of course that is only due to it being in its most basic form possible to get a baseline.
I think Vengeance can be successful if it takes everything gathered from the tests over the years and puts it all into a single campaign, maybe replacing ravenwatch or icereach. I'm thinking- Basic PvP versions of skills for Class, Weapon, World, and Guild.
- Basic PvP versions of passives for the same areas including Race
- No CP
- No Volendrung (Maybe? It's not so much an issue if the wielder isn't invincible)
- No proc sets. Only stat based sets, this time with a clearly defined list with no "technically not a proc, but actually is one" leaking its way into list. Could go as far as to make them PvP specific only like with skills.
- No Mythics
- Targeted heals
- Cap on heal/damage aoes (3 is too low for damage tbh. At least 6 would make them feel more effective)
- Unlimited Siege, Potions, etc
- Base template stats that can be added onto with attribute, armor, and potentially enchant selection
- No battlespirit
- Static mount speed (though it should be a bit more faster than it currently was)
- No Score or Emperor (Maybe? Unsure for this because if these aren't enabled, then there's no real goal for the campaign other than AP farming large sieges)
- No quests, skyshards, gathering, or any PvE related activity (Bulletin quests can still be enabled, though)
The goal would be to create a simplified skill based cyrodiil that would put everyone on an even playing field but still allows for individual build variety, multiple metas, and for a single to small group of players to be considered dangerous but not an invincible 1 man army who can take on 15-30 people at once while also supporting a population cap of 250v250v250 (Estimated. With Miat's, I was at a keep with it reporting 200 players of my alliance and then ported to base with it reporting 20 players. It may be 300.). As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, if PvP is considered to be vet trials, there's no real stepping stone for a new player to get into PvP. Under 50 is filled with smurfs, Ravenwatch is dead, and BGs is a horribly unbalanced nightmare. A vengeance campaign with the described features will be a great place for someone to learn fundamental PvP skills before jumping into a place like Grayhost or Blackreach where everything is enabled. That's not to say that regular PvP needs its own balancing too, but a Vengeance campaign will be a good place to get started.
For reference, I mainly played NB in vengeance because Queue times were over 30 minutes when I got the time to play. I did do warden once and still had a decent time on it. I did several 1v1/2s without any teammates around and was able to win. Once there were 3 or more players, I would usually die, but still be able to take at least one player with me. I've put a lot of time into this game in both areas, even going as far as theory crafting my own PvP builds instead of copying and pasting youtube builds, so I'm not going to accept any ad hominems about being a casual or a PvEer.
I don't think I can go back to real cyrodiil either, tbh. Not in its current state. Vegeance gets stale after an hour, and would definitely fail long term if that's only what we got as a separate campaign, but it was still better than real cyrodiil or PvP in general just because so many issues were absent from it. I would say it would be worth it for ZOS to invest time into polishing vengeance as it's own campaign/gamemode before tackling the rest of real PvP and its balance, though a change to how heal stacking works in real PvP will do a lot short term.6 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭MincMincMinc wrote: »From what I have gathered on the pts it is like 80% positive or people hoping for vengeance to be flushed out more. Then there is the other 10-20% who have been vehemently opposed and want their proc set soup back.
Sounds about right.
Gathered from where and how?
The problem is ZOS is investing into the vengeance nonsense instead of fixing the Cyrodiil PvP we all grew to know and love. That's what is unacceptable.6 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vengeance was the worst PvP ZOS has ever delivered. There was nothing to do but follow the zerg. The only thing that made any difference was the size of the zerg. No individual player could have any impact on any of the fights or anywhere else on the map. It was just a zerg fest, and the peak numbers didn't even come close to the original population cap and still had performance issues that even vengeance mode couldn't resolve.
Edited by reazea on 5 April 2025 01:325 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You need to answer the question for any of subsequent text to matter. Deltia played and covered Vengeance in a video. Need a link?
What do you lose being able to dunk on more PVE players? Is it because in Vengeance you can't because you can't exploit the broken sets? I was dunking on people during Vengeance week and it felt great.
If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!DeadlySerious wrote: »There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.
It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.
It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.
Top question is - Do "hardcore PVP advocates" (Not Deltia because he liked Vengeance) want laggy unpopulated Cyrodiil or do they want accessible popcapped 600 players Cyrodiil? Remember! Gatekeeping Cyrodiil is why its dead and has such a low number of participants. When does one let go of their source of ego gratification and say "Man, Cyrodiil needs an overhaul"?
Many factual inaccuracies in your post. Not the least of which is that Deltia doesn't play ESO anymore.
Ah, well, I did manage to find this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na8VI-a39Lk&ab_channel=Deltia%27sGaming
So it looks like Deltia did in fact play some vengeance. I'd encourage you to watch the video several times and take to heart what he has to say about it. My sentiments match his exactly. And his comments in the video run contrary to most of the assertions you have made about the vengeance mode.
I am now a bit confused though about what's going on with Deltia. He did sell the rights to his website last year. But this video sure looks like he's representing himself, not Nazura. So don't know what to say about that. Maybe the deal fell through for some reason. Or maybe Nazura is paying Deltia to continue to produce content. ESO certainly isn't his main focus anymore if you look at deltiasgaming.com.
Do you have any links to anything eso related from Deltia in the last six months other than what I linked to by chance?
You watch it again. He said he had fun with it. It wasn't all negative like you.
I watched the video. At no point does Deltia say he liked vengeance mode. Almost everything he had to say about it was negative. Why are you so eager to misrepresent so many aspects of vengeance mode?5 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just responded to an email from Bethesda/ZOS providing feedback on my experience in Vengeance. I encourage all who were there to sign up to receive that feedback invitation and provide your responses to their survey. (ZOS provided a link on how to sign up in their Feedback Thread).
I thought this was the best thing they have done in a long time. If an enhanced version of this PVP model is made permanent, it would be a winning Marketing strategy for Bethesda and a winning environment for the players. Nothing is better than a Win-Win scenario.
How do we sign up to receive this feedback request?3 -
LPapirius✭✭✭✭✭
You need to answer the question for any of subsequent text to matter. Deltia played and covered Vengeance in a video. Need a link?
What do you lose being able to dunk on more PVE players? Is it because in Vengeance you can't because you can't exploit the broken sets? I was dunking on people during Vengeance week and it felt great.
If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!DeadlySerious wrote: »There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.
It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.
It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.
Top question is - Do "hardcore PVP advocates" (Not Deltia because he liked Vengeance) want laggy unpopulated Cyrodiil or do they want accessible popcapped 600 players Cyrodiil? Remember! Gatekeeping Cyrodiil is why its dead and has such a low number of participants. When does one let go of their source of ego gratification and say "Man, Cyrodiil needs an overhaul"?
Many factual inaccuracies in your post. Not the least of which is that Deltia doesn't play ESO anymore.
Ah, well, I did manage to find this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na8VI-a39Lk&ab_channel=Deltia%27sGaming
So it looks like Deltia did in fact play some vengeance. I'd encourage you to watch the video several times and take to heart what he has to say about it. My sentiments match his exactly. And his comments in the video run contrary to most of the assertions you have made about the vengeance mode.
I am now a bit confused though about what's going on with Deltia. He did sell the rights to his website last year. But this video sure looks like he's representing himself, not Nazura. So don't know what to say about that. Maybe the deal fell through for some reason. Or maybe Nazura is paying Deltia to continue to produce content. ESO certainly isn't his main focus anymore if you look at deltiasgaming.com.
Do you have any links to anything eso related from Deltia in the last six months other than what I linked to by chance?
You watch it again. He said he had fun with it. It wasn't all negative like you.
So no evidence/links that Deltia has created ESO related content in the last six months other than the link I posted then? No comments about Deltia selling his website to Nazura?
And at the end of the video Deltia says he would never play vengeance long term because it's just a zerg fest with numbers being the only real factor in any fight. (which is what the vast majority of PvP mains agree with) He said he did better on sorc as a solo, but that he still wouldn't play it and listed several reasons why.3 -
LPapirius✭✭✭✭✭I just responded to an email from Bethesda/ZOS providing feedback on my experience in Vengeance. I encourage all who were there to sign up to receive that feedback invitation and provide your responses to their survey. (ZOS provided a link on how to sign up in their Feedback Thread).
I thought this was the best thing they have done in a long time. If an enhanced version of this PVP model is made permanent, it would be a winning Marketing strategy for Bethesda and a winning environment for the players. Nothing is better than a Win-Win scenario.
How do we sign up to receive this feedback request?
I'd be interested in giving some official feedback as well. Please let us know how to do so @Kamchuk3 -
Markytous✭✭✭✭
Claiming I misrepresent Vengeance when the naysayers have claimed that soloing resources there was impossible in it? Like I said before: if all you think there is to do is follow the zerg then you're still in an adjustment period for how to play without crutch carry sets. Also, now I have here Fengrush saying they had fun playing Vengeance.
You need to answer the question for any of subsequent text to matter. Deltia played and covered Vengeance in a video. Need a link?
What do you lose being able to dunk on more PVE players? Is it because in Vengeance you can't because you can't exploit the broken sets? I was dunking on people during Vengeance week and it felt great.
If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!DeadlySerious wrote: »There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.
It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.
It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.
Top question is - Do "hardcore PVP advocates" (Not Deltia because he liked Vengeance) want laggy unpopulated Cyrodiil or do they want accessible popcapped 600 players Cyrodiil? Remember! Gatekeeping Cyrodiil is why its dead and has such a low number of participants. When does one let go of their source of ego gratification and say "Man, Cyrodiil needs an overhaul"?
Many factual inaccuracies in your post. Not the least of which is that Deltia doesn't play ESO anymore.
Ah, well, I did manage to find this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na8VI-a39Lk&ab_channel=Deltia%27sGaming
So it looks like Deltia did in fact play some vengeance. I'd encourage you to watch the video several times and take to heart what he has to say about it. My sentiments match his exactly. And his comments in the video run contrary to most of the assertions you have made about the vengeance mode.
I am now a bit confused though about what's going on with Deltia. He did sell the rights to his website last year. But this video sure looks like he's representing himself, not Nazura. So don't know what to say about that. Maybe the deal fell through for some reason. Or maybe Nazura is paying Deltia to continue to produce content. ESO certainly isn't his main focus anymore if you look at deltiasgaming.com.
Do you have any links to anything eso related from Deltia in the last six months other than what I linked to by chance?
You watch it again. He said he had fun with it. It wasn't all negative like you.
I watched the video. At no point does Deltia say he liked vengeance mode. Almost everything he had to say about it was negative. Why are you so eager to misrepresent so many aspects of vengeance mode?
https://youtu.be/O_xoN-SZfKk?feature=shared
I'm expecting someone to tell me he hated it when the word "fun" is used. I never got my answer from Grey Host advocates - do you love lag or no?3 -
Markytous✭✭✭✭
He just made a new video on Dragonknight lol Go find it yourself
You need to answer the question for any of subsequent text to matter. Deltia played and covered Vengeance in a video. Need a link?
What do you lose being able to dunk on more PVE players? Is it because in Vengeance you can't because you can't exploit the broken sets? I was dunking on people during Vengeance week and it felt great.
If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!DeadlySerious wrote: »There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.
It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.
It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.
Top question is - Do "hardcore PVP advocates" (Not Deltia because he liked Vengeance) want laggy unpopulated Cyrodiil or do they want accessible popcapped 600 players Cyrodiil? Remember! Gatekeeping Cyrodiil is why its dead and has such a low number of participants. When does one let go of their source of ego gratification and say "Man, Cyrodiil needs an overhaul"?
Many factual inaccuracies in your post. Not the least of which is that Deltia doesn't play ESO anymore.
Ah, well, I did manage to find this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na8VI-a39Lk&ab_channel=Deltia%27sGaming
So it looks like Deltia did in fact play some vengeance. I'd encourage you to watch the video several times and take to heart what he has to say about it. My sentiments match his exactly. And his comments in the video run contrary to most of the assertions you have made about the vengeance mode.
I am now a bit confused though about what's going on with Deltia. He did sell the rights to his website last year. But this video sure looks like he's representing himself, not Nazura. So don't know what to say about that. Maybe the deal fell through for some reason. Or maybe Nazura is paying Deltia to continue to produce content. ESO certainly isn't his main focus anymore if you look at deltiasgaming.com.
Do you have any links to anything eso related from Deltia in the last six months other than what I linked to by chance?
You watch it again. He said he had fun with it. It wasn't all negative like you.
So no evidence/links that Deltia has created ESO related content in the last six months other than the link I posted then? No comments about Deltia selling his website to Nazura?
And at the end of the video Deltia says he would never play vengeance long term because it's just a zerg fest with numbers being the only real factor in any fight. (which is what the vast majority of PvP mains agree with) He said he did better on sorc as a solo, but that he still wouldn't play it and listed several reasons why.1 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I logged into Blackreach and noticed that DC PvDoor'ed the map and was in the process of Pvdooring our (AD's) scrolls without much of a fight. No interesting fights were going on since nobody was pushing anything so I queued in for GH.... It took me 17+ mins to get in... once I was in... For a campaign that was locked pop in all 3 factions.. there wasn't much going on.. DC or EP wasn't pushing each other... apparently, all of AD was at Alessia Bridge fighting with EP... It was boring.
Vengeance brought life to Cyrodill and everyone was enjoying it.. there was such a massive amount of people on... with so many things going on, and with an endless amount of battles.
Cyrodill was great for a week
I ended up trying Vengeance for three play sessions.
Sorry, but "everyone" didn't enjoy it. All three sessions I lost interest in Vengeance very quickly. I disliked the limited abilities, I disliked that I couldn't be a dedicated healer/support easily or well or at all (depending on class), I disliked the limited amount of small scale PvP to be found, and I disliked the slow pace, both in regards to travel and running, and also fighting/abilities. Among other things.
Perhaps I am lucky. Perhaps it's because of when and where I play. But truly, honestly, I almost always have a fantastic time in Cyro when I play, with a variety of play style options available to me, and only find mild annoyance with performance issues, whereas in Vengeance it was only large battles, simple builds, and zergs. It got boring so, so quickly.
I'm actually mystified by the people who are missing Vengeance now. I played it because it was the only thing available, and to do my part for the test, but it did not hold my interest, at all. That's not to say there weren't good or promising things about it, but as someone who currently PvP's more than I PvE.... if it's either/or with no possibility for improvements or changes, I'd take Cyro today over Vengeance, 100%. If Vengeance, as it was in the test, was implemented permanently with no other options, my interest in PvP would plummet. My personal desire isn't "always tons of people in a single battle and I can sort of hit skills and move around in that environment" but "explore a wide variety of builds, options, classes, and push my skills to the limit by tweaking and changing my setups." To each his own, but I hope we end up with options at the end of this.2 -
AngryPenguin✭✭✭✭✭
Claiming I misrepresent Vengeance when the naysayers have claimed that soloing resources there was impossible in it? Like I said before: if all you think there is to do is follow the zerg then you're still in an adjustment period for how to play without crutch carry sets. Also, now I have here Fengrush saying they had fun playing Vengeance.
You need to answer the question for any of subsequent text to matter. Deltia played and covered Vengeance in a video. Need a link?
What do you lose being able to dunk on more PVE players? Is it because in Vengeance you can't because you can't exploit the broken sets? I was dunking on people during Vengeance week and it felt great.
If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!DeadlySerious wrote: »There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.
It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.
It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.
Top question is - Do "hardcore PVP advocates" (Not Deltia because he liked Vengeance) want laggy unpopulated Cyrodiil or do they want accessible popcapped 600 players Cyrodiil? Remember! Gatekeeping Cyrodiil is why its dead and has such a low number of participants. When does one let go of their source of ego gratification and say "Man, Cyrodiil needs an overhaul"?
Many factual inaccuracies in your post. Not the least of which is that Deltia doesn't play ESO anymore.
Ah, well, I did manage to find this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na8VI-a39Lk&ab_channel=Deltia%27sGaming
So it looks like Deltia did in fact play some vengeance. I'd encourage you to watch the video several times and take to heart what he has to say about it. My sentiments match his exactly. And his comments in the video run contrary to most of the assertions you have made about the vengeance mode.
I am now a bit confused though about what's going on with Deltia. He did sell the rights to his website last year. But this video sure looks like he's representing himself, not Nazura. So don't know what to say about that. Maybe the deal fell through for some reason. Or maybe Nazura is paying Deltia to continue to produce content. ESO certainly isn't his main focus anymore if you look at deltiasgaming.com.
Do you have any links to anything eso related from Deltia in the last six months other than what I linked to by chance?
You watch it again. He said he had fun with it. It wasn't all negative like you.
I watched the video. At no point does Deltia say he liked vengeance mode. Almost everything he had to say about it was negative. Why are you so eager to misrepresent so many aspects of vengeance mode?https://youtu.be/O_xoN-SZfKk?feature=shared
I'm expecting someone to tell me he hated it when the word "fun" is used. I never got my answer from Grey Host advocates - do you love lag or no?
Personally I'd prefer to never hear from Fengrush again. I think most other than a very select few feel the same. And I'm pretty sure Deltia is retired, as others have pointed out.
I just read another post from you that said you basically quit Cyrodiil years ago. Then in this thread you brag about being able to accomplish things easily that some of the strongest players in the game had trouble accomplishing; solo'ing resources specifically. You're contradicting yourself.
Edited by AngryPenguin on 5 April 2025 16:303 -
Markytous✭✭✭✭
So instead of acknowledging the fact that returning players have voiced more than negative responses to Vengeance PVP, you're just going to say you don't like them. That is fine. You don't have to like them. However they have voiced more than just negative opinions of Vengeance PVP. With regards to Deltia, he said he couldn't see himself playing it in the long-term. Do people not understand short-term enjoyment? Well, of course they do, as that is the core enjoyment of jumping to the next big proc set every patch.AngryPenguin wrote: »
Claiming I misrepresent Vengeance when the naysayers have claimed that soloing resources there was impossible in it? Like I said before: if all you think there is to do is follow the zerg then you're still in an adjustment period for how to play without crutch carry sets. Also, now I have here Fengrush saying they had fun playing Vengeance.
You need to answer the question for any of subsequent text to matter. Deltia played and covered Vengeance in a video. Need a link?
What do you lose being able to dunk on more PVE players? Is it because in Vengeance you can't because you can't exploit the broken sets? I was dunking on people during Vengeance week and it felt great.
If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!DeadlySerious wrote: »There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.
It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.
It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.
Top question is - Do "hardcore PVP advocates" (Not Deltia because he liked Vengeance) want laggy unpopulated Cyrodiil or do they want accessible popcapped 600 players Cyrodiil? Remember! Gatekeeping Cyrodiil is why its dead and has such a low number of participants. When does one let go of their source of ego gratification and say "Man, Cyrodiil needs an overhaul"?
Many factual inaccuracies in your post. Not the least of which is that Deltia doesn't play ESO anymore.
Ah, well, I did manage to find this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na8VI-a39Lk&ab_channel=Deltia%27sGaming
So it looks like Deltia did in fact play some vengeance. I'd encourage you to watch the video several times and take to heart what he has to say about it. My sentiments match his exactly. And his comments in the video run contrary to most of the assertions you have made about the vengeance mode.
I am now a bit confused though about what's going on with Deltia. He did sell the rights to his website last year. But this video sure looks like he's representing himself, not Nazura. So don't know what to say about that. Maybe the deal fell through for some reason. Or maybe Nazura is paying Deltia to continue to produce content. ESO certainly isn't his main focus anymore if you look at deltiasgaming.com.
Do you have any links to anything eso related from Deltia in the last six months other than what I linked to by chance?
You watch it again. He said he had fun with it. It wasn't all negative like you.
I watched the video. At no point does Deltia say he liked vengeance mode. Almost everything he had to say about it was negative. Why are you so eager to misrepresent so many aspects of vengeance mode?https://youtu.be/O_xoN-SZfKk?feature=shared
I'm expecting someone to tell me he hated it when the word "fun" is used. I never got my answer from Grey Host advocates - do you love lag or no?
Personally I'd prefer to never hear from Fengrush again. I think most other than a very select few feel the same. And I'm pretty sure Deltia is retired, as others have pointed out.
I just read another post from you that said you basically quit Cyrodiil years ago. Then in this thread you brag about being able to accomplish things easily that some of the strongest players in the game had trouble accomplishing; solo'ing resources specifically. You're contradicting yourself.
Read all of my posts. I was a hardcore Cyrodiil player (Ravenwatch/Azura's Star/Sotha Sil) until 2022 and would only pop in once in awhile to check on things since 2017 (before 2017 I was just starting the game). Five whole years of consistent Cyrodiil and you're going to claim that I shouldn't be suddenly able to solo resources? That player who despised Vengeance said it was impossible to solo resources, which was incorrect because I was able to do so on the overtuned Nightblade and underpowered Dragonknight in Vengeance. I'm able to solo keeps and outposts in Cyrodiil No-CP and CP enabled campaigns as well. I don't see how this is some major flex. If PVP players can't do that then they just need to reallocate their builds to facilitate the content there-in. I don't think they're the "strongest players in the game" as you insist, as they were kneecapped in Vengeance whereas some of our other colleagues here who enjoyed Vengeance had no issues with it. You can't just turn a blind eye towards the fact that proc sets are being used as a crutch to bump up the skill floor - that is what the developers have said the intent was for when they did the proc set pass. They didn't want to just outright nerf them to uselessness because some players use them out of accessibility needs. Well guess what. That means proc sets are not competitive. You can't claim that you are "the best player" when you can no longer participate properly just because sets are disabled.
You don't have to like Vengeance Cyrodiil, but do better than attacking my character when debating the fate of PVP. You're not making a good case for discouraging the developers fixing the PVP performance, if that is indeed your goal. You will never be able to nail me down as a liar posting in bad faith because I care too much about this game to just go on these forums to lie about my in-game performance. I logged into PTS and the first thing I did was hit a resource and my decisions on-bar were good choices for completing that content. It shouldn't be that difficult to understand but there are differences in skill level of PVP and PVE (the concept of learning how to do both of these at the same time is another facet of said understanding). You don't have to worry - Grey Host is still available with its 150 player cap for your entertainment and enjoyment.7 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I logged into Blackreach and noticed that DC PvDoor'ed the map and was in the process of Pvdooring our (AD's) scrolls without much of a fight. No interesting fights were going on since nobody was pushing anything so I queued in for GH.... It took me 17+ mins to get in... once I was in... For a campaign that was locked pop in all 3 factions.. there wasn't much going on.. DC or EP wasn't pushing each other... apparently, all of AD was at Alessia Bridge fighting with EP... It was boring.
Vengeance brought life to Cyrodill and everyone was enjoying it.. there was such a massive amount of people on... with so many things going on, and with an endless amount of battles.
Cyrodill was great for a week
I'm actually mystified by the people who are missing Vengeance now. I played it because it was the only thing available, and to do my part for the test, but it did not hold my interest, at all. That's not to say there weren't good or promising things about it, but as someone who currently PvP's more than I PvE.... if it's either/or with no possibility for improvements or changes, I'd take Cyro today over Vengeance, 100%. If Vengeance, as it was in the test, was implemented permanently with no other options, my interest in PvP would plummet. My personal desire isn't "always tons of people in a single battle and I can sort of hit skills and move around in that environment" but "explore a wide variety of builds, options, classes, and push my skills to the limit by tweaking and changing my setups." To each his own, but I hope we end up with options at the end of this.
If you are legitimately mystified why people would miss Vengeance, then how can I take any of your opinions about Live Cyrodiil seriously? Even if You really really really love it, it is so blatantly obvious why people would not like it. How can you not see that?Edited by Joy_Division on 5 April 2025 17:35Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.8 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »I logged into Blackreach and noticed that DC PvDoor'ed the map and was in the process of Pvdooring our (AD's) scrolls without much of a fight. No interesting fights were going on since nobody was pushing anything so I queued in for GH.... It took me 17+ mins to get in... once I was in... For a campaign that was locked pop in all 3 factions.. there wasn't much going on.. DC or EP wasn't pushing each other... apparently, all of AD was at Alessia Bridge fighting with EP... It was boring.
Vengeance brought life to Cyrodill and everyone was enjoying it.. there was such a massive amount of people on... with so many things going on, and with an endless amount of battles.
Cyrodill was great for a week
I'm actually mystified by the people who are missing Vengeance now. I played it because it was the only thing available, and to do my part for the test, but it did not hold my interest, at all. That's not to say there weren't good or promising things about it, but as someone who currently PvP's more than I PvE.... if it's either/or with no possibility for improvements or changes, I'd take Cyro today over Vengeance, 100%. If Vengeance, as it was in the test, was implemented permanently with no other options, my interest in PvP would plummet. My personal desire isn't "always tons of people in a single battle and I can sort of hit skills and move around in that environment" but "explore a wide variety of builds, options, classes, and push my skills to the limit by tweaking and changing my setups." To each his own, but I hope we end up with options at the end of this.
If you are legitimately mystified why people would miss Vengeance, then how can I take any of your opinions about Live Cyrodiil seriously? Even if You really really really love it, it is so blatantly obvious why people would not like it. How can you not see that?
Oh hi! Btw (100% serious here), I always really enjoy your posts; they are very well thought out. Iirc, you had a great vMA guide back in the day.
To answer your question, I guess I should have just worded that a little differently. I'm actually a big advocate of different play styles and trying to help others understand other perspectives or how compromises can be made. What I should have said was, that there is absolutely zero part of me that misses Vengeance. I don't remotely feel that emotion about it... not even a little bit. I actively missed live Cyro as I was participating in the test (what I missed and what I disliked about the test is in my post in the test feedback, so I won't repeat it all here).
I certainly can understand why others who prioritize different things than me, or experience worse performance in live than I typically do, might miss it. That's why I said "to each his own." It's just for me, the trade-offs (basically, the extreme simplification of builds and options and the slower pace) were not worth it. I wrote that sentiment as I was trying to explain why, if it was a choice between Vengeance exactly as it was, vs live, I'd pick live. I just... can't personally imagine being satisfied long term with a Cyro that felt so slow and limited.
Now there were some promising things about the test... especially the lack of a stuck in combat bug! So I can empathize more with a sentiment of missing parts of the test. I could see saying "Boy, I loved less lag, no stuck in combat bug, and the larger battles. I miss those!" Which is different, to me, than saying "I miss the entire environment" and preferring that to live. And I do agree with the sentiment of people going into live Cyro and missing the better performance of the test. But again, for people who care way more about being in an epic battle without ever crashing, as opposed to having many nuanced builds and options available... what's good about live Cyro to them might not outweigh what they loved about Vengeance. And I get that people may truly feel that way... I just can't feel that way, myself.
Anyway, I'd like it if you'd take me seriously, just because I happen to have a lot of respect for your opinions and experience in ESO, but it's also ok if you don't. Mostly when I write it's to share my opinion because if I have one, probably others do too, so it gives ZOS multiple perspectives to consider. The more kinds of players that can be happy with a solution, the better. I've been playing MMOs for years, and I've PvP'd not only in ESO but in Wow, Rift, etc. I've seen ESO evolve and implement tons of what I consider to be fantastic changes, but also tons of what I consider to be highly unfortunate changes. I tend to have a stronger opinion when a proposed or implemented change has collateral damage to playstyles that could be avoided, or when lovely features are removed after we've enjoyed them for many years.
I suppose I'm passionate and concerned about the Vengeance test possibly becoming permanent, as-is, because it feels like the latter to me. Many features and functionality were taken out of the PvP experience in that test such that it would feel like another "loss" to me if it went live and those features were permanently removed. Things like the fact that AP wasn't calculated until you left the environment drove me absolutely bonkers. A small thing, I know, but I often play "until I hit xyz" so it was an extra irritating limitation. And I know how things work around here, and I don't have a lot of faith that if the message is unilaterally "This was unequivocally the best thing I've ever experienced!!" that we won't see almost a clone of the test go live with little tweaking.
Lastly, I suppose the other thing, for me, is that I expected performance to be better in battles in this test (and I expected less ball groups) because of everything that was disabled, so it wasn't that impressive to me. I mean, if it isn't better with all that stuff turned off, we are in super big trouble. So, that was just an expected outcome such that I focused more on all the things I didn't like than the performance improvement.
I don't think it makes my opinions less valid just because I was overjoyed to be able to play in Greyhost with all of my characters, all of my builds, my scribing abilities, and saw the return of a variety of strategies beyond just "the zerg" once the test was over. But I do understand that live Cyro isn't perfect and I didn't mean to hint that it was. Thanks for reading (if you did!)0 -
DeadlySerious✭✭✭✭I'm only seeing 2 people I know to be avid PvP players posting in support of vengeance mode. That should be telling information for ZOS to go by.
Other than that every PvP main I know of hated it, including myself. It's almost exclusively the PvE mains posting complimentary remarks regarding vengeance mode. To me it seems like vengeance mode is aptly named as some kind of punishment for the PvP main players. It was just a zerg v zerg situation. The only thing that mattered was the size of the zerg.
Please just fix the heal/shield stacking and a few of the most offensive sets, like RoA need to be limited to monsters only.2 -
blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DeadlySerious wrote: »I'm only seeing 2 people I know to be avid PvP players posting in support of vengeance mode. That should be telling information for ZOS to go by.
LOL Like you know everyone.
Again this is not a zero sum game. There is no reason why both can not exist side by side in adjusted formats.PCNA
PCEU6 -
mmtaniac✭✭✭✭✭Simple add Vengeance as different mode + improve it with time. But still try to balance and repair current one.1 -
DeadlySerious✭✭✭✭Simple add Vengeance as different mode + improve it with time. But still try to balance and repair current one.
ZOS is unlikely to do both. They'll pick one mode to work on and ignore the other mode. That's what the people pushing for a vengeance mode are not realizing. A vengeance mode will mean ZOS never puts time or money into fixing their existing PvP format in Cyrodiil. They won't support both long term. The bean counters will force the devs to pick one mode or the other.DeadlySerious wrote: »I'm only seeing 2 people I know to be avid PvP players posting in support of vengeance mode. That should be telling information for ZOS to go by.
LOL Like you know everyone.
Again this is not a zero sum game. There is no reason why both can not exist side by side in adjusted formats.
It is going to end up with one mode or the other in the end. That's why people who love the original PvP should be very worried and why we should be pushing back on any version of vengeance going forward. ZOS isn't going to support two different PvP modes. They will pick the one that is easiest and cheapest to support and drop support for the other mode. This IS a zero sum game.
Edited by DeadlySerious on 6 April 2025 23:514 -
Udrath✭✭✭✭They need to bring more golden pursuits to cyrodiill, and it should be for ravenwatch. I think that’s a big reason so many showed up to vengeance in the first place.3 -
Xarc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
This is a logical fallacy. You are equating one variable with Vengeance (the AoE cap of 3) with all of the consequences of Vengeance.
There were no ball groups in Vengeance because of all the other things Vengeance did - no stacking heals, no rush of agony set, no spam casting AoE shields, no snowtreaders, no 30% free damage mitigation from AoE, no major/minor force buffs, etc, etc., etc.
It also a logical fallacy that because Ballgroups flourish now without an AoE cap, the lack of an AoE cap must be the reason.
As I said, it's just an observation and I don't know if it has anything to do with it, "on a technical perspective" because I am not ZOS
This may be part of the problem, though the outcome is likely a multi-factorial combination.
That said, I don't understand the point of not limiting AOE attacks, in terms of pure gameplay.
Are bombers a good thing?
Of course, they're fun to play. I've done it, earned millions of AP, even made an AVA.50 and was emperor at the time.
But is it a good thing to raze a group that takes a ressource, or repairs a door or a wall?
In purely strategic terms, it adds nothing to the map, the faction, or anything other than the bomber himself.
So I know what you're going to say: bombers can destroy a ballgroup!!!
Well, can they? No.
Because just as the lack of AOE cap helps the bomber to multi-kill unbuffed players, it also helps players multi-buff with shields, heals, and other things within a ballgroup. And there's nothing anyone can do about that.
that's why I think no AOE cap is a false good ideaEdited by Xarc on 7 April 2025 08:33@xarcs FR-EU-PC -Please visit my house ingame !
sorry for my english, it's not my native language, I'm french
"Death is overrated", Xarc
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SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DeadlySerious wrote: »I'm only seeing 2 people I know to be avid PvP players posting in support of vengeance mode. That should be telling information for ZOS to go by.
LOL Like you know everyone.
Again this is not a zero sum game. There is no reason why both can not exist side by side in adjusted formats.
It probably is a zero sum game. It's not very likely that ZOS will go from barely supporting the PvP format we have now to fully supporting two different formats at the same time. They will pick one fomat and go with it and, more than likely, drop the other format. This is why I'm so opposed to ZOS investing further dev time into any version of the vengeance format. Eventually they're going to pick one or the other most likely.
Edited by SaffronCitrusflower on 7 April 2025 15:351