Please bring back Vengeance campaign

RaikaNA · April 1

I logged into Blackreach and noticed that DC PvDoor'ed the map and was in the process of Pvdooring our (AD's) scrolls without much of a fight. No interesting fights were going on since nobody was pushing anything so I queued in for GH.... It took me 17+ mins to get in... once I was in... For a campaign that was locked pop in all 3 factions.. there wasn't much going on.. DC or EP wasn't pushing each other... apparently, all of AD was at Alessia Bridge fighting with EP... It was boring.

Vengeance brought life to Cyrodill and everyone was enjoying it.. there was such a massive amount of people on... with so many things going on, and with an endless amount of battles.

Cyrodill was great for a week

Oblivion_Protocol · April 1

So here was my experience with PvP on the first day after Vengeance.

I popped into GH on my DC toon. Successfully defended Ales from a medium sized EP group that was attacking when I ported in.

An EP zerg was attacking Ash. I got there just as they got the front door to 40%. Oils, Coldfire, and Meatbags all failed to kill anyone. They got the front door down and pushed us to the keep. They got the keep door down, but we managed to hold them. One EP Warden got in, went upstairs and started burning our siege. Eight of us attacked him and couldn’t kill him. The zerg overwhelmed the defenders and oozed over the keep, taking it. That Warden still didn’t die.

Volendrung spawned in on our side of the map. Immediately, someone grabbed it and said, in Gen chat, that he was handing it to AD. Then, he ported to Ash (after we’d retaken it), walked to Nikel and did exactly that.

We fought the hammer zerg at Ash after it broke through to the keep. However, an EP ball group showed up and started killing us while AD with hammer grabbed the keep. Once we were dead, the ball group left without fighting any of the AD.

All of this happened in a span of 45 minutes. Vengeance wasn’t perfect, but my God was it better than this.

SpiritKitten · April 1

yeah I was there for that. Got so pissed that some traitor handed off the hammer that I logged out.

Yasha · April 1

Yeah, I stopped playing again after Vengeance. Hopefully they'll bring something like this back, was a ton of fun.

mmtaniac · April 1

Some things must be less complicated to be good. Eso pvp is something like that. All those champion points, op items, guild skills are just bad for whole pvp.

MincMincMinc · April 1

Yeah people dont seem to understand that cyrodil as a game mode only works if it is full. There are things zos could do like give the losing factions more stat buffs and AP incentives. Or restructure the map to favor helping a faction take back its keeps.

Sadly a vengeance campaign is bound to fail since people will favor the well guild established greyhost. The bandwagon is too strong. The only way I see it working is make greyhost only cp1000+ players. Anyone under cp1000 is forced to play in vengeance.

Ideally this is temporary and zos keeps using this running server as a testzone. Adding in more skills and eventually reworking:

Attributes
Mundus (needs balancing)
Food (needs balancing)
Enchants (needs balancing)
poisons (needs balancing)
potions (needs balancing)
Noproc Item sets
No damage or healing item sets (think stat sets like clever alch are allowed, but tarnished or Rush of agony is banned)

aetherix8 · April 1

Yasha wrote: »

Yeah, I stopped playing again after Vengeance. Hopefully they'll bring something like this back, was a ton of fun.

Pretty much same here. Except that I found Vengeance too oversimplified to be lots of fun. So I hope for something similar, as an alternative campaign to the main proc hell mode, but it would have to give us more options than class skills only. And especially, more speed.

So I’m looking forward to such alternative mode and hopefully it will come to be, but I hope also that if ZOS were to introduce a new campaign, they design and implement it properly this time, or it would risk joining the no-proc campaign’s fate, which was dead in the end, not only because most ppl want the full mode (seemingly), but most notably cause no-proc appeared ad-hoc and then it got abandoned by the devs straight away (list of sets working in no-proc faulty from the beginning, never updated so players had to go and test what worked, new sets that should work didn’t at the release, just to mention the most problematic aspects).

I would rather do more tests to fix performance once for all, and to explore other ideas for an alternative campaign, than ask to have Vengeance live immediately when in fact it isn’t ready yet.

Xarc · April 1

Let the ballgroups kill each other, they don't mind the "Stuck in Combat" bug after all. Oh no, sorry, that's never what they do.

Let the trolls with cancer builds chase... other trolls? Oh no, sorry, that's never what they do.

Leave all those people on Grayhost and bring back Vengeance.

robertlabrie · April 1

Champions would be cool with earned buffs from gameplay like +50 HP for every farm you capture or whatever or unlocking abilities and reset it when you re-enter the campaign.

RaikaNA · April 1

Xarc wrote: »

Let the ballgroups kill each other, they don't mind the "Stuck in Combat" bug after all. Oh no, sorry, that's never what they do.

Let the trolls with cancer builds chase... other trolls? Oh no, sorry, that's never what they do.

Leave all those people on Grayhost and bring back Vengeance.

The problem is that ballgroups don't fight each other.. they fight casual and solo players inside of a trikeep, and farm AP. That's all they do. They contribute to nothing in their own faction. I've seen ballgroups use a scroll (even their own) as a source to AP farm. Rarely do I see them run the scroll back. They hold it as long as they can to lure people.

Xarc · April 1

RaikaNA wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

Let the ballgroups kill each other, they don't mind the "Stuck in Combat" bug after all. Oh no, sorry, that's never what they do.

Let the trolls with cancer builds chase... other trolls? Oh no, sorry, that's never what they do.

Leave all those people on Grayhost and bring back Vengeance.

Xarc wrote: »

Let the ballgroups kill each other, they don't mind the "Stuck in Combat" bug after all. Oh no, sorry, that's never what they do.

Let the trolls with cancer builds chase... other trolls? Oh no, sorry, that's never what they do.

Leave all those people on Grayhost and bring back Vengeance.

The problem is that ballgroups don't fight each other.. they fight casual and solo players inside of a trikeep, and farm AP. That's all they do. They contribute to nothing in their own faction. I've seen ballgroups use a scroll (even their own) as a source to AP farm. Rarely do I see them run the scroll back. They hold it as long as they can to lure people.

Yes i know, this is what i wrote, it was sarcastic

About scroll, sometimes I think about it being like chaosball, doing damages in aoe until death, which needs big support with heals/shields and multiples runners. It would make it harder to farm with

Ginge · April 1

Completely agree. I just had a little look. What was a fun playground with loads of players and dynamic battles has turned back into a lonely wilderness and pain of being constantly stunned and instantly killed. Lots of so called skilled players picking on newbies. Not fun

Kamchuk · April 1

It’s sad for me to say this, but I just don’t have any interest in going back to Gray Host after being spoiled by Vengeance. I don’t have any desire to fight against Rush of Agony, Ball Groups, or unkillable players. It’s unwinnable. I don’t play Golf anymore either because it is a game you can only play but never win.

People have been complaining about Vengeance being too simple, or after playing for a while, being boring because it is ZERG vs ZERG all the time. But we only experienced it in LIVE for 1 week. Cyro has always evolved over time. If Vengeance were a permanent Campaign, battle strategies would evolve to be more than just Zergs. I watch my wife play in Cyro on PS NA and I am very impressed with the organization and tactics used by AD. Her EP faction has no strategy AT ALL. It is no wonder AD always wins. IMO that would eventually happen in Vengeance as tactics evolve, (that is if the goal of the Vengeance campaign is to WIN by having the highest score).

Going forward, a Vengeance like campaign needs to include all Class active and passive abilities at the very minimum. This differentiates the abilities of each Class and makes them unique. They should be unique to augment each players preferred playstyle and skill. But it is the players brains, playstyle and skill that should be the ultimate determinant of winning and losing, not the broken mechanics and armor found in GH.

Joy_Division · April 1

Kamchuk wrote: »

It’s sad for me to say this, but I just don’t have any interest in going back to Gray Host after being spoiled by Vengeance. I don’t have any desire to fight against Rush of Agony, Ball Groups, or unkillable players. It’s unwinnable. I don’t play Golf anymore either because it is a game you can only play but never win.

People have been complaining about Vengeance being too simple, or after playing for a while, being boring because it is ZERG vs ZERG all the time. But we only experienced it in LIVE for 1 week. Cyro has always evolved over time. If Vengeance were a permanent Campaign, battle strategies would evolve to be more than just Zergs. I watch my wife play in Cyro on PS NA and I am very impressed with the organization and tactics used by AD. Her EP faction has no strategy AT ALL. It is no wonder AD always wins. IMO that would eventually happen in Vengeance as tactics evolve, (that is if the goal of the Vengeance campaign is to WIN by having the highest score).

Going forward, a Vengeance like campaign needs to include all Class active and passive abilities at the very minimum. This differentiates the abilities of each Class and makes them unique. They should be unique to augment each players preferred playstyle and skill. But it is the players brains, playstyle and skill that should be the ultimate determinant of winning and losing, not the broken mechanics and armor found in GH.

I do agree that things would evolve. By the end of the event, I could tell there clearly were players who "got it" and those who didn't. If ZOS gave us some customization, removed the silly AoE cap of 3, and provided us with some semblance of balance, I do think Vengeance has potential.

EP does have a strategy though. Never have I seen a collection of players so eager to stand under oil. Must be something in the mead.

Quackery · April 1

Joy_Division wrote: »

Kamchuk wrote: »

It’s sad for me to say this, but I just don’t have any interest in going back to Gray Host after being spoiled by Vengeance. I don’t have any desire to fight against Rush of Agony, Ball Groups, or unkillable players. It’s unwinnable. I don’t play Golf anymore either because it is a game you can only play but never win.

People have been complaining about Vengeance being too simple, or after playing for a while, being boring because it is ZERG vs ZERG all the time. But we only experienced it in LIVE for 1 week. Cyro has always evolved over time. If Vengeance were a permanent Campaign, battle strategies would evolve to be more than just Zergs. I watch my wife play in Cyro on PS NA and I am very impressed with the organization and tactics used by AD. Her EP faction has no strategy AT ALL. It is no wonder AD always wins. IMO that would eventually happen in Vengeance as tactics evolve, (that is if the goal of the Vengeance campaign is to WIN by having the highest score).

Going forward, a Vengeance like campaign needs to include all Class active and passive abilities at the very minimum. This differentiates the abilities of each Class and makes them unique. They should be unique to augment each players preferred playstyle and skill. But it is the players brains, playstyle and skill that should be the ultimate determinant of winning and losing, not the broken mechanics and armor found in GH.

I do agree that things would evolve. By the end of the event, I could tell there clearly were players who "got it" and those who didn't. If ZOS gave us some customization, removed the silly AoE cap of 3, and provided us with some semblance of balance, I do think Vengeance has potential.

EP does have a strategy though. Never have I seen a collection of players so eager to stand under oil. Must be something in the mead.

And for the love of God, REMOVE COOLDOWNS!! Sorcs were punished severely with cooldowns on several skills. It as incredibly debilitating, especially since I play very rapidly. I hate when I have to stand there like an idiot and wait for the cooldown to go.

RaikaNA · April 1

Quackery wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Kamchuk wrote: »

It’s sad for me to say this, but I just don’t have any interest in going back to Gray Host after being spoiled by Vengeance. I don’t have any desire to fight against Rush of Agony, Ball Groups, or unkillable players. It’s unwinnable. I don’t play Golf anymore either because it is a game you can only play but never win.

People have been complaining about Vengeance being too simple, or after playing for a while, being boring because it is ZERG vs ZERG all the time. But we only experienced it in LIVE for 1 week. Cyro has always evolved over time. If Vengeance were a permanent Campaign, battle strategies would evolve to be more than just Zergs. I watch my wife play in Cyro on PS NA and I am very impressed with the organization and tactics used by AD. Her EP faction has no strategy AT ALL. It is no wonder AD always wins. IMO that would eventually happen in Vengeance as tactics evolve, (that is if the goal of the Vengeance campaign is to WIN by having the highest score).

Going forward, a Vengeance like campaign needs to include all Class active and passive abilities at the very minimum. This differentiates the abilities of each Class and makes them unique. They should be unique to augment each players preferred playstyle and skill. But it is the players brains, playstyle and skill that should be the ultimate determinant of winning and losing, not the broken mechanics and armor found in GH.

I do agree that things would evolve. By the end of the event, I could tell there clearly were players who "got it" and those who didn't. If ZOS gave us some customization, removed the silly AoE cap of 3, and provided us with some semblance of balance, I do think Vengeance has potential.

EP does have a strategy though. Never have I seen a collection of players so eager to stand under oil. Must be something in the mead.

And for the love of God, REMOVE COOLDOWNS!! Sorcs were punished severely with cooldowns on several skills. It as incredibly debilitating, especially since I play very rapidly. I hate when I have to stand there like an idiot and wait for the cooldown to go.

Sorcs needs a cooldown on skills like streak, shields, and Dark Exchange. these 3 skills are overperforming.

reazea · April 1

Any version of the vengeance campaign goes live on a mandatory basis and it will be the end of Cyrodiil PvP in ESO. The only people who liked it were those who hate PvP in the first place.

Vulsahdaal · April 1

reazea wrote: »

Any version of the vengeance campaign goes live on a mandatory basis and it will be the end of Cyrodiil PvP in ESO. The only people who liked it were those who hate PvP in the first place.

Personally I think its the end now. People saw what PvP could look like in Vengeance and are not coming back. 10-15 EP on GH this morning, Thats it. By 4:00pm est when it usually starts picking up we were down to 4. Thats it.

Its dead. The map had not moved or changed in 6 hours. Im sort of a die hard but even I have to admit its done. Said my goodbye and left.

Is Vengeance some sort of answer, that I dont know, but I know it cant go on like it is.

Wallar333 · April 1

reazea wrote: »

Any version of the vengeance campaign goes live on a mandatory basis and it will be the end of Cyrodiil PvP in ESO. The only people who liked it were those who hate PvP in the first place.

Idk where you get this nonsense, cos no one was PUSHED to play it, everyone joined cos of his free will, if he didnt liked it, he could leave any time. Most ppl tried it cos they were curious whats going on, and many players, even veterans liked it more than normal cyro.

If it would be the end of old cyrodiil, well i say let phoenix rise from the ashes of old cyro, cos old cyro is just VERRY BAD, and such state should be changed, its bad enough to be burned.
BUT i wouldnt vote for changing old cyro with something new, im voting for making such camping for the rest of the community, leaving all ballgroup nonsense enjoyers in old cyro campaigns to keep them happy.

As for your statement that only ppl who hates PVP liked it, thats a TOTAL nonsense, cos there are a LOT of veterans even here on forum, who stand for giving us vengeance back, and MANY of us likes PVP, we just dont like old cyro nonsense weve had till now.
Thats why ill tried to make a suggestions what to change to make vengeance to be a real campaign, so everyone can enjoy PVP, as we enjoyed it during testing. Sure, it wasnt perfect, was extremely simplified cos it was a performance test, but it has potential, potential that could be used to actually make cyro great and PLAYABLE for EVERYONE, which cannot be said about old cyro.

One of the main problems why pvp is almost dead in this game, is also the fact, that this games PVP is 100% new player unfriendly, while also beeing BORING/BAD/UNFUNNY for most veteran players. Some kind of ENHANCED vengeance campaign could fix. Making such campaign would make PVP accesible for new players, and also making it actually fun for EVERYONE veterans included. This game desperately needs it.

reazea · April 1

Wallar333 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Any version of the vengeance campaign goes live on a mandatory basis and it will be the end of Cyrodiil PvP in ESO. The only people who liked it were those who hate PvP in the first place.

Idk where you get this nonsense, cos no one was PUSHED to play it, everyone joined cos of his free will, if he didnt liked it, he could leave any time. Most ppl tried it cos they were curious whats going on, and many players, even veterans liked it more than normal cyro.

If it would be the end of old cyrodiil, well i say let phoenix rise from the ashes of old cyro, cos old cyro is just VERRY BAD, and such state should be changed, its bad enough to be burned.
BUT i wouldnt vote for changing old cyro with something new, im voting for making such camping for the rest of the community, leaving all ballgroup nonsense enjoyers in old cyro campaigns to keep them happy.

As for your statement that only ppl who hates PVP liked it, thats a TOTAL nonsense, cos there are a LOT of veterans even here on forum, who stand for giving us vengeance back, and MANY of us likes PVP, we just dont like old cyro nonsense weve had till now.
Thats why ill tried to make a suggestions what to change to make vengeance to be a real campaign, so everyone can enjoy PVP, as we enjoyed it during testing. Sure, it wasnt perfect, was extremely simplified cos it was a performance test, but it has potential, potential that could be used to actually make cyro great and PLAYABLE for EVERYONE, which cannot be said about old cyro.

One of the main problems why pvp is almost dead in this game, is also the fact, that this games PVP is 100% new player unfriendly, while also beeing BORING/BAD/UNFUNNY for most veteran players. Some kind of ENHANCED vengeance campaign could fix. Making such campaign would make PVP accesible for new players, and also making it actually fun for EVERYONE veterans included. This game desperately needs it.

Everyone who wanted to PvP in Cyro for a week was FORCED to play it. It was the only option.

I PvP in Cyro every day for most of the last decade for 2 hours or more, doing scheduled guild raids. I haven't heard from a single one of us vet players who would play vengeance mode over normal. We just want ZOS to deal with a few OP sets like RoA and limit heal and shield stacking. We won't stick around for any version of vengeance mode. None of us will.

reazea · April 1

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Any version of the vengeance campaign goes live on a mandatory basis and it will be the end of Cyrodiil PvP in ESO. The only people who liked it were those who hate PvP in the first place.

Personally I think its the end now. People saw what PvP could look like in Vengeance and are not coming back. 10-15 EP on GH this morning, Thats it. By 4:00pm est when it usually starts picking up we were down to 4. Thats it.

Its dead. The map had not moved or changed in 6 hours. Im sort of a die hard but even I have to admit its done. Said my goodbye and left.

Is Vengeance some sort of answer, that I dont know, but I know it cant go on like it is.

Performance in Cyrodiil the last two days has been notably worse than prior to the mandated week of vengeance mode too. Anyone else notice this or wonder why?

Dracosin369 · April 1

The thing is that everyone that loves what GH is with all the sets and builds could play in the new Battlegrounds, where the smaller numbers don't effect server performance as much. Personally I like the 2-300 vs 300 vs 300 nature of Vengeance. GH feels dead when its just 20-40 people. The whole point of Cyrodil is taking and defending Keeps/castles.

Rohamad_Ali · April 1

Still stuck in combat after Vengeance ended.

Wallar333 · April 1

reazea wrote: »

Everyone who wanted to PvP in Cyro for a week was FORCED to play it. It was the only option.

I PvP in Cyro every day for most of the last decade for 2 hours or more, doing scheduled guild raids. I haven't heard from a single one of us vet players who would play vengeance mode over normal. We just want ZOS to deal with a few OP sets like RoA and limit heal and shield stacking. We won't stick around for any version of vengeance mode. None of us will.

Yes, but ZOS needed to test something, youre not happy for them actually trying to do SOMETHING with pvp ? While also you want it to change, just contribute to help them, enjoy and chill. Also you could have go IC for example, or run 8v8 BGs with guild during the week, OR play some other game for few days at worst.

Yes im sure youre play as ballgroup member, cos literally NO ONE ELSE likes this cyro state. Also i guess no one actually normal wants LITERALLY vengance back, im voting for vengeance to live back, but in different state, you can find my thread about it, or look for it in general suggestions about vengeance, its somewhere on page 7. I also mentioning reducing healing/shielding for it there. Vengeance as it was during the test wouldnt do much sense, its was way too simplified, BUT it can be change into something MUCH better, which maybe even you and/or your friends could actually like in the end.

I agree with you about things that needs to be changed in normal cyro, which could make it playable. But its idk 8 years or something since cyro release, and it looks IMPOSSIBLE to actually balance it through years, which led to this overall state of pvp, that even players like you, who play it every day for a couple of hours dont really likes it much.

I was also up for changing cyro by removing few sets, nerfing sorc class and reducing healing/shielding overally in PVP. But ANY try of changing ANYTHING here, just starts a war between community members who want a change, and those who want to keep it as it is which i dont understand but ok. After playing vengeance, ive got an idea about a different solution tho, which could also prevent community/community/dev war which would surely happen if ZOS would try to change PVP as i or some others suggesting, as youre also suggesting by reducing healing/shielding, while SETs would still make an aincredible difference in cyro, ALWAYS making it only playable for ballgroups and unplayable for solo players, even veteran solo players, while playing it as ballgroup members is also not fun for many of us. So making a different campaign without sets and some other things for the rest of the community is the best solution for everything now.

Joy_Division · April 1

reazea wrote: »

Any version of the vengeance campaign goes live on a mandatory basis and it will be the end of Cyrodiil PvP in ESO. The only people who liked it were those who hate PvP in the first place.

Speak for yourself please.

Theignson · April 1

After vengeance, all the chronic problems were back and more obvious than ever.

Thousands of posts have decried RoA, excessive cross heals, unkillable balls. They all came back IMMEDIATELY

Strangely enough the balls did not run in Vengeance as far as I could see. But when all the crutches were restored they were back,

And it was Tedious

Wallar333 · April 1

Theignson wrote: »

After vengeance, all the chronic problems were back and more obvious than ever.

Thousands of posts have decried RoA, excessive cross heals, unkillable balls. They all came back IMMEDIATELY

Strangely enough the balls did not run in Vengeance as far as I could see. But when all the crutches were restored they were back,

And it was Tedious

True. Weve got that old ****cyro back, i didnt even played it after vengeance, im still protesting against overall PVP state, doing pve and other stuff rather than damaging my nervous system playing that nonsense. Even BGs are also almost unplayable, especially in 8v8 where you usually also meet ballgroups, just in small scale

, BG teams are unbalanced as HELL which makes them way too easy (skilled pvpers on your side) OR impossible to play (skilled pvpers on enemy side), its mixing randoms with those who joins as group, that simply sucks, especially since most random players are either newbies, non-pvpers (many times in pve builds) or simply idk if completely dumb or trolling.

Also im sure ballgroups were present during vengeance too, but they didnt had their OP builds, cos thats what makes them so strong in normal cyro, they are stacking milions of buffs from many sets, keeping dmg shields up and crosshealing as ****, NONE of these were accesible during vengeance, thats why you probably didnt even noticed them.

RaikaNA · April 1

reazea wrote: »

Any version of the vengeance campaign goes live on a mandatory basis and it will be the end of Cyrodiil PvP in ESO. The only people who liked it were those who hate PvP in the first place.

Cyrodill in the current settings is insufferable. I've been PvP'ing long before ESO was born..I don't Hate PvP I just hate the unbalance that it has... not to mention that it's not an actual PvP campaign but Proc vs proc... whoever has the best proc set combination wins the fight no matter how skillful you are. I also hate the unkillable tank meta. I think it's ridiculous that takes several people to take down a single person... that the unkillable tank has a massive amount of heals and health regeneration that leads them to be unkillable. I also hate ballgroups..

xylena_lazarow · April 1

Despite its flaws and my own pessimism, I too find myself missing Vengeance. Didn't think I'd be saying that one. The large scale was boring but it's at least a decent foundation, unlike the current failed model. Give us some Meatbags and a few more skill lines to complete the class kits, then we might have something.

valenwood_vegan · April 1

Yeah I tried to go back to Blackreach after really enjoying my time in Vengeance, and I didn't last 15 minutes. I mean I wasn't having fun before, but it took Vengeance to make me realize just how *much* I wasn't having fun in the current Cyro.

darvaria · April 2

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

So here was my experience with PvP on the first day after Vengeance.

I popped into GH on my DC toon. Successfully defended Ales from a medium sized EP group that was attacking when I ported in.

An EP zerg was attacking Ash. I got there just as they got the front door to 40%. Oils, Coldfire, and Meatbags all failed to kill anyone. They got the front door down and pushed us to the keep. They got the keep door down, but we managed to hold them. One EP Warden got in, went upstairs and started burning our siege. Eight of us attacked him and couldn’t kill him. The zerg overwhelmed the defenders and oozed over the keep, taking it. That Warden still didn’t die.

Volendrung spawned in on our side of the map. Immediately, someone grabbed it and said, in Gen chat, that he was handing it to AD. Then, he ported to Ash (after we’d retaken it), walked to Nikel and did exactly that.

We fought the hammer zerg at Ash after it broke through to the keep. However, an EP ball group showed up and started killing us while AD with hammer grabbed the keep. Once we were dead, the ball group left without fighting any of the AD.

All of this happened in a span of 45 minutes. Vengeance wasn’t perfect, but my God was it better than this.

I truly thought EP was the only faction that was subjected to hammer turn overs. And ZOS will NOT take action against it. This is SO WRONG. I'm just not playing Cyrodiil anymore. Other campaigns are empty and GH is just full of exploiters, unkillable ball groups & tower humpers. Finally figured out this place is just not fun.,