Class balance

ioResult · January 29

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Streak is such a class defining skill for sorc and its pretty much the appeal for playing sorc, especially stamsorc.

Shadowy Disguise was a class defining skill for Nightblades and it was pretty much the appeal for playing Nightblade. And yet, in their infinite wisdom ZOS decided to change it into a toggle ability, making it have no appeal for every long time Nightblade main and making it no longer a class defining skill. So Streak should not be sacred either. Either remove the stun completely or make the ability targetable and to stun the opponent must be targeted.

Turtle_Bot · January 29

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Streak is definitely the best mobility tool in the game. The only situationally better skill is shade and only in tower fights.

Rats is NOT as good as streak and that's a good thing. It shouldn't be. Streak is such a class defining skill for sorc and its pretty much the appeal for playing sorc, especially stamsorc. Streak is loaded skill. That's true and I think that's fine. It gives identity to the class.

The issue is still Ward and that's it. I think the best thing to do is give the heal portion of ward a cooldown. Allowing sorcs to get a small burst heal to escape execute range: cool. They shouldn't be able to spam it to never fall below 70%.

This is actually an interesting fix for ward, especially if its only the heal part that has the cooldown, and something ZOS might look into in the future depending how the vengeance tests go with the cooldowns built into the vengeance skills.

Went on a bit of a tangent, so spoiler tabbing it

While I wouldn't want to see cooldowns on actually casting the skills themselves (that strays too close to other MMOs and away from what makes ESO unique in terms of combat), some of the secondary effects many skills currently have could definitely do with cooldowns being attached to them to force them to act more like over time bonuses instead of upfront bonuses per cast allowing for spamming them, such as:
- guaranteed crit on cloak (probably should have a 3-4 second cooldown on this secondary effect)
- heal on ward (probably should have a 3-4 second cooldown on this secondary effect)
- upfront cleanse on netch (probably should have a 2-3 second cooldown on this secondary effect)
- battle roar passive (due to the synergy with ulti-share support builds) (probably could use a 6 second cooldown)
- some of the secondary effects of scribing skills like the flat bonus damage on contingency

ZOS has already done this in the past with Daedric mines that now have a 2 second cooldown for affecting the same target and it would work similar to how there's enforced cooldowns (that aren't directly stated as cooldowns on tooltips) on many abilities already like:
- the stun on streak due to CC immunity (7-22 seconds effective cooldown)
- the heal on arc ward due to building crux (2-3 seconds effective cooldown)
- damage on templar blazing shield due to needing to absorb damage (1-6 seconds to absorb damage then expire)
- lava whip proc on DK due to building stacks (3 seconds minimum effective cooldown)
- blast bones due to cannot summon a second one while one is still standing (~3 seconds cooldown)
- armaments on sorc (4 second effective cooldown to build stacks)
- MR proc on NB due to building stacks (4-5 seconds effective cooldown, although there's other issues with this such as permanent stacks, damage values etc.)

Frags proc is a unique case, it averages out to be a 3 second cooldown when looking at a large enough sample size (due to the 33% proc chance), unfortunately being pure rng based, this means its effectively 10-15 seconds cooldown for some players/scenarios and 1 second cooldown for others, making it frustrating to both use and fight against. Maybe frags should use pseudo rng on its proc like other games do for rng like crits etc, so its more like 2-4 casts between procs instead of the current 1-20 casts between procs.

TL//DR of spoiler, interesting idea, could work but would have to be for secondary effects only (like ward heal) and not the primary effect of the ability itself (the shield). Would also need to be looked at for some other secondary effects of other abilities as well.

Alchimiste1 · January 29

ioResult wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Streak is such a class defining skill for sorc and its pretty much the appeal for playing sorc, especially stamsorc.

Shadowy Disguise was a class defining skill for Nightblades and it was pretty much the appeal for playing Nightblade. And yet, in their infinite wisdom ZOS decided to change it into a toggle ability, making it have no appeal for every long time Nightblade main and making it no longer a class defining skill. So Streak should not be sacred either. Either remove the stun completely or make the ability targetable and to stun the opponent must be targeted.

What are you talking about ? I main nb, that toggle did nothing to nb. In fact I think my sustain is actually better because of it.

Alchimiste1 · January 29

The only thing it did was make it so people that were spamming cloak on cooldown would pull themselves out of cloak if they didn’t think for a second

StaticWave · January 29

ioResult wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are people complaining about Streak lol... Every year there's always a Streak nerf thread, yet you don't see any magsorcs in Cyrodiil up until Ward buff.

It's not Streak that is the problem, end of story.

Ahahahahahahahaha...first they came for Cloak...and Static hated Cloak so Cloak was the problem.

Now they come for Streak...and Streak is not the problem...ahahahahahaha.

Yes please nerf Streak.

Two or more Sorcs stunning you unavoidably in PvP is ridiculous and makes it far too easy to lock down someone.

Remove the Stun from streak or at LEAST make Sorcs specifically have to TARGET you with the Streak to stun you, not simply shoot off in your general direction to put a stun you that you can't avoid. If you can't avoid Streak then a player shouldn't be able to avoid or dodge Death Stroke either. Oh wait ZOS, you literally just put in a "fix" to make Death Stroke MORE dodgeable, so for balance at least make a Sorc have to target a player with the Streak to stun them.

I asked for a nerf to Healthy Offering burst heal FIRST because I wanted NB to remain a stealthy archetype. People said NB needed the burst heal. That was when I started asking for Cloak nerf because NB mains clearly wanted to be tanky and stealthy.

If ZOS didn’t nerf Ward, I would 100% advocate for Streak nerf too, which I did state in my Ward nerf thread. But you know what? ZOS did nerf Ward, so there is no reason for me to ask for Streak nerf. ZOS can continue tweaking Ward until it’s balanced and we won’t have an issue with Sorc anymore.

You want Cloak nerf reverted? Start asking for balance changes to address NB tankiness then.

xylena_lazarow · January 29

StaticWave wrote: »

Start asking for balance changes to address NB tankiness then.

It would be the same stuff needed to balance Sorc tankiness. You get so much generic defensive power from sets, traits, passives, cp, Scribing, Vigor, etc, and perhaps the worst offender: defensive back bar (SnB/Ice/Resto). There are a ton of offenders in this category and you aren't gonna fix the problem nerfing only one of them.

MincMincMinc · January 29

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Thou shalt not nerf what makes a class fun and unique

The hero we need in a heinous range spam meta: OLD DK WINGS

yeah removing population balance tools from kits was a mistake.
- dk wings reflect
- harness mag absorb
- ball of lightning ranged absorb
- Critsurge cooldown 0.25s
- sunshieldplars
- sap essence+siphoning attacks

With vengeance It'd be nice to have more unique simplified skills like we used to see. Id rather have a more impactful active skill instead of 10 weak active skills with 30x random buffs passively given by slotting them.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Streak is definitely the best mobility tool in the game. The only situationally better skill is shade and only in tower fights.

Rats is NOT as good as streak and that's a good thing. It shouldn't be. Streak is such a class defining skill for sorc and its pretty much the appeal for playing sorc, especially stamsorc. Streak is loaded skill. That's true and I think that's fine. It gives identity to the class.

The issue is still Ward and that's it. I think the best thing to do is give the heal portion of ward a cooldown. Allowing sorcs to get a small burst heal to escape execute range: cool. They shouldn't be able to spam it to never fall below 70%.

This is actually an interesting fix for ward, especially if its only the heal part that has the cooldown, and something ZOS might look into in the future depending how the vengeance tests go with the cooldowns built into the vengeance skills.

Went on a bit of a tangent, so spoiler tabbing it
While I wouldn't want to see cooldowns on actually casting the skills themselves (that strays too close to other MMOs and away from what makes ESO unique in terms of combat), some of the secondary effects many skills currently have could definitely do with cooldowns being attached to them to force them to act more like over time bonuses instead of upfront bonuses per cast allowing for spamming them, such as:
- guaranteed crit on cloak (probably should have a 3-4 second cooldown on this secondary effect)
- heal on ward (probably should have a 3-4 second cooldown on this secondary effect)
- upfront cleanse on netch (probably should have a 2-3 second cooldown on this secondary effect)
- battle roar passive (due to the synergy with ulti-share support builds) (probably could use a 6 second cooldown)
- some of the secondary effects of scribing skills like the flat bonus damage on contingency

ZOS has already done this in the past with Daedric mines that now have a 2 second cooldown for affecting the same target and it would work similar to how there's enforced cooldowns (that aren't directly stated as cooldowns on tooltips) on many abilities already like:
- the stun on streak due to CC immunity (7-22 seconds effective cooldown)
- the heal on arc ward due to building crux (2-3 seconds effective cooldown)
- damage on templar blazing shield due to needing to absorb damage (1-6 seconds to absorb damage then expire)
- lava whip proc on DK due to building stacks (3 seconds minimum effective cooldown)
- blast bones due to cannot summon a second one while one is still standing (~3 seconds cooldown)
- armaments on sorc (4 second effective cooldown to build stacks)
- MR proc on NB due to building stacks (4-5 seconds effective cooldown, although there's other issues with this such as permanent stacks, damage values etc.)

Frags proc is a unique case, it averages out to be a 3 second cooldown when looking at a large enough sample size (due to the 33% proc chance), unfortunately being pure rng based, this means its effectively 10-15 seconds cooldown for some players/scenarios and 1 second cooldown for others, making it frustrating to both use and fight against. Maybe frags should use pseudo rng on its proc like other games do for rng like crits etc, so its more like 2-4 casts between procs instead of the current 1-20 casts between procs.

TL//DR of spoiler, interesting idea, could work but would have to be for secondary effects only (like ward heal) and not the primary effect of the ability itself (the shield). Would also need to be looked at for some other secondary effects of other abilities as well.

I think we should avoid cooldowns being thrown into zos balancing toolkit as much as possible. A better version would be to make the heal only happen when you have no shield currently. So basically the heal only works on the first ward, or if you carefully cast such that you are not spamming ward every gcd.

Or the vengeance route where the ward skill should be......you know.......a ward skill. Increase the ward or reduce the cost for balance instead of continuing to bloat the game with more and more complicated effects. What is the main purpose of ward? to apply a ward...... do that maybe?

The problem people have with streak and cloak is how the other classes have lost their population control. I think we pointed this out in other threads, but classes all had baked in 1vX tools. If you chose to slot these skills for utility you gave up other damage or passives. Sorc and nb still have their hard identity, where you dont see dks or templars fending off people like they used to.

- wings that reflected everything
- Ball of lightning that absorbed everything
- Sunshield that could do crazy damage
- sap essence with siphoning direct attack sustain
- Harness magicka so everyone could have a shield and sustain

Since Warden, zos's design for combat has had its blinders on, focusing on making everything so equal and the same.

TechMaybeHic · January 29

I think some people wanted more of the "trinity" and ZOS thought that meant sorc, NB, and Warden

StaticWave · January 30

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I personally don't think sorcerer/magsorc was an issue before the buff to ward and blood magic passive.

They should have just given them vibrant shroud and called it there. Sorcerers literally got the burst heal they asked for, but nobody is using it because of how overpowered hardened ward is.

It really is. I’m currently using Vibrant Shroud and fights feel fine and fair vs other classes. The moment I swap to Ward it feels night and day different in terms of tankiness. I could tank damage that normally would have killed me lol.

StaticWave · January 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Start asking for balance changes to address NB tankiness then.

It would be the same stuff needed to balance Sorc tankiness. You get so much generic defensive power from sets, traits, passives, cp, Scribing, Vigor, etc, and perhaps the worst offender: defensive back bar (SnB/Ice/Resto). There are a ton of offenders in this category and you aren't gonna fix the problem nerfing only one of them.

You’re going off track now. Other than Scribing, Pre U40 Sorc had access to Rallying Cry, SnB/Ice/Resto, Vigor, literally the same things you’re describing here, yet nobody said Sorc was broken. In fact, I remember multiple threads BEGGING for Sorc buffs.

I don’t think the fix is that complicated. You have to remember that Ward having a heal is the reason why magsorc can slot Bound Aegis for that extra 8% max mag. If Ward didn’t have the heal, magsorcs would’ve slotted Vigor instead like pre-U40, and lose a ton of damage in the process. Just adjust Ward some more and magsorc will be balanced.

sans-culottes · January 30

If sorcerers need buffs, then what do necromancers need?

xylena_lazarow · January 30

StaticWave wrote: »

Pre U40 Sorc

Was kept in check by busted cloakblades, its natural predator. Broken checking broken. Nerfing cloakblades was necessary but it also kinda screwed the ecosystem, enabling the Sorc population to expand out of control.

StaticWave · January 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Pre U40 Sorc

Was kept in check by busted cloakblades, its natural predator. Broken checking broken. Nerfing cloakblades was necessary but it also kinda screwed the ecosystem, enabling the Sorc population to expand out of control.

No, magsorc was being farmed by literally everyone. I rarely saw any magsorc in Cyro at all. The ones that I saw in Cyro were pugs and either died quickly or protected by the zerg. In dueling, only the top tier magsorcs like MetallicMonk could compete, but he still got put on farm by other players in the same skill tier as him but playing better classes. Magsorc did dominate tourneys but that was with a bunch of rules to balance the game (somewhat).

Even my experiences are similar. Pre U40, the only magsorcs that gave me trouble were top tier players like Monk. Literally when U40 went live, I was put on farm by the same people I farmed pre U40. Ward making them tanky was one thing. The other important thing was they gained 18% max mag modifier from Expert Summoner and Bound Aegis, on top of another 2k max mag by using all mag glyphs instead of tri-stat glyphs. You’re looking at another 5k+ max mag in U40 compared to pre U40.

Personally, I don’t think their damage is the issue. It’s their tankiness. Now that Curse is affected by Major Evasion and also blockable, their entire kit is easily countered by simply holding block. It’s their tankiness that’s causing them to be unnecessarily hard to kill and turning a fight vs them into a sustain fight.

xylena_lazarow · January 30

StaticWave wrote: »

It’s their tankiness that’s causing them to be unnecessarily hard to kill and turning a fight vs them into a sustain fight.

We agree here. Sorc's kit was fine when DD builds were forced into being glass cannons. How to accomplish this now? I have no idea and am glad it's the devs' problem to solve and not mine. I had also quit after U35 and didn't return until midway through U41, when Sorc was at its most oppressive thanks to Vamp 3. Now you can reliably kill MagSorc or any other Sorc at even skill in a 1v1, but only if they decide to let you 1v1 and don't just Streak away and laugh at you...

MincMincMinc · January 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

It’s their tankiness that’s causing them to be unnecessarily hard to kill and turning a fight vs them into a sustain fight.

We agree here. Sorc's kit was fine when DD builds were forced into being glass cannons. How to accomplish this now? I have no idea and am glad it's the devs' problem to solve and not mine. I had also quit after U35 and didn't return until midway through U41, when Sorc was at its most oppressive thanks to Vamp 3. Now you can reliably kill MagSorc or any other Sorc at even skill in a 1v1, but only if they decide to let you 1v1 and don't just Streak away and laugh at you...

Most of the arguments come down to overinflated kits. Just look at the hp pool now adays. Most builds sit at 35-40khp. 30khp is considered low. I remember when 25k was low.....20k.....15k...3k....etc

Somehow I went from running 50k stam builds with 20khp to 15k stam builds and 45khp.
- regen too easy to obtain (why was regen added to wd jewelry glyphs)
- Max stam damage scaling is too low
- Triglyphs being too efficient
- Heals should scale more with max stam/mag than wd (inverse of how damage skills are)

xylena_lazarow · January 30

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Somehow I went from running 50k stam builds with 20khp to 15k stam builds and 45khp

Well yeah that's the power creep we're all talking about. Cloak and Streak used to be balanced by Blade and Sorc having otherwise weak defensive kits. Now you've got tanky brawlers and ranged battlecruisers that can still go invisible and teleport, the only classes with this distinct advantage. Cloak got balanced, people still complain about Sorc.

StaticWave · January 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Somehow I went from running 50k stam builds with 20khp to 15k stam builds and 45khp

Well yeah that's the power creep we're all talking about. Cloak and Streak used to be balanced by Blade and Sorc having otherwise weak defensive kits. Now you've got tanky brawlers and ranged battlecruisers that can still go invisible and teleport, the only classes with this distinct advantage. Cloak got balanced, people still complain about Sorc.

If they touch Streak, then they better fix up the class passives and turn it into what it once was - a speed demon. Otherwise, NB will look really appealing and is a no brainer pick.

xylena_lazarow · January 30

StaticWave wrote: »

If they touch Streak, then they better fix up the class passives and turn it into what it once was - a speed demon.

I'd pick StamSorc up again if they could resurrect the speed demon class identity that I first played it for. As much fun as it is being a speed demon on my DK, it's less fun when everyone else is too, I'm with you on the speed creep problem.

DaniimalsSF · January 30

They need to rework how damage, healing, sustain, and mitigation scale and interact. At least separate healing from damage. I doubt they invest in this work.

ioResult · January 30

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

What are you talking about ? I main nb, that toggle did nothing to nb. In fact I think my sustain is actually better because of it.

You main a Nightblade, huh?

An entire guild of Nightblades saw your comment in a guild Discord and laughed out loud.

So tell the guild of Nightblades what your build is exactly and explain to them in detail how the change to Cloak to not regen Magicka while you are moving has improved your sustain.

sans-culottes · January 30

I toggled off Grave Lord’s Sacrifice. That’s good for everything, right? Maybe by not using GLS in PVP I’m gimping the excellent, well-defined PVP kit available to the Necromancer class.

ioResult · January 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Start asking for balance changes to address NB tankiness then.

It would be the same stuff needed to balance Sorc tankiness. You get so much generic defensive power from sets, traits, passives, cp, Scribing, Vigor, etc, and perhaps the worst offender: defensive back bar (SnB/Ice/Resto). There are a ton of offenders in this category and you aren't gonna fix the problem nerfing only one of them.

All of this exactly! I've been asking for all of this for ages. I've been yelling that all healing stacks need to be capped at two, because PvE groups don't ever have more than two healers anyway. I've been vocal about getting rid of out of group AoE heals in PvP. The list is numerous as xylena says above. Do all of the stuff mentioned above and the NB burst heal wouldn't be an issue.

Fact is that the unavoidable stun with Streak has no equivalent in other classes. You don't have to target anyone. You can hit multiple people with it. There's no way to avoid being locked down by it. If you're trying to 1vX, I get your perspective, but nowadays, one faces a group of 3 or more Sorcs that are all streaking everywhere, it's impossible to have the "X" of Sorcs not lock you down.

xylena_lazarow · January 30

ioResult wrote: »

Do all of the stuff

They did do "all the stuff" that's how they came up with Vengeance. Otherwise they play whack-a-mole with every outlier that pops up like they've been doing for a decade. What's the one outlier on Sorc now? Not sure if I can honestly call Ward the outlier anymore when my DK now tends to win the even skill 1v1 against MagSorcs.

RebornV3x · January 30

I love how these threads always circle around to a nerf sorc threads. Streak is the only skill in the entire game where you are penalized for spamming could you imagine any other class where a skill has this effect "Casting again within 4 seconds cost 33% more magicka" If any other skill with any other class had this same effect you all would be threatening to quit the game. Leave streak alone

sans-culottes · January 30

RebornV3x wrote: »

I love how these threads always circle around to a nerf sorc threads. Streak is the only skill in the entire game where you are penalized for spamming could you imagine any other class where a skill has this effect "Casting again within 4 seconds cost 33% more magicka" If any other skill with any other class had this same effect you all would be threatening to quit the game. Leave streak alone

I like that class balance threads always end up being about two classes.

MincMincMinc · January 31

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If they touch Streak, then they better fix up the class passives and turn it into what it once was - a speed demon.

I'd pick StamSorc up again if they could resurrect the speed demon class identity that I first played it for. As much fun as it is being a speed demon on my DK, it's less fun when everyone else is too, I'm with you on the speed creep problem.

Did you ever read my speed thread from a while ago? pretty much covered everything from the inflation of stats given out like candy and how snares/root immunity is poorly designed in the game.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666066/movement-and-speed-must-be-addressed/p1

Stamsorc is pretty subpar for identity now. Kinda sad it used to be the king of speed and mobility. Now stamwarden takes that spot with 6s major and 4s immov on one skill that also gives them like 5 or 6 exceedingly strong passives.

StaticWave · January 31

ioResult wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

What are you talking about ? I main nb, that toggle did nothing to nb. In fact I think my sustain is actually better because of it.

You main a Nightblade, huh?

An entire guild of Nightblades saw your comment in a guild Discord and laughed out loud.

So tell the guild of Nightblades what your build is exactly and explain to them in detail how the change to Cloak to not regen Magicka while you are moving has improved your sustain.

Gankblades? Let me guess is it Lord of the Shaft?

StaticWave · January 31

ioResult wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Start asking for balance changes to address NB tankiness then.

It would be the same stuff needed to balance Sorc tankiness. You get so much generic defensive power from sets, traits, passives, cp, Scribing, Vigor, etc, and perhaps the worst offender: defensive back bar (SnB/Ice/Resto). There are a ton of offenders in this category and you aren't gonna fix the problem nerfing only one of them.

All of this exactly! I've been asking for all of this for ages. I've been yelling that all healing stacks need to be capped at two, because PvE groups don't ever have more than two healers anyway. I've been vocal about getting rid of out of group AoE heals in PvP. The list is numerous as xylena says above. Do all of the stuff mentioned above and the NB burst heal wouldn't be an issue.

Fact is that the unavoidable stun with Streak has no equivalent in other classes. You don't have to target anyone. You can hit multiple people with it. There's no way to avoid being locked down by it. If you're trying to 1vX, I get your perspective, but nowadays, one faces a group of 3 or more Sorcs that are all streaking everywhere, it's impossible to have the "X" of Sorcs not lock you down.

You have Mass Hysteria on NB, which is also one of the best unblockable AoE stuns in the game.

ioResult · January 31

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

Do all of the stuff

They did do "all the stuff" that's how they came up with Vengeance. Otherwise they play whack-a-mole with every outlier that pops up like they've been doing for a decade. What's the one outlier on Sorc now? Not sure if I can honestly call Ward the outlier anymore when my DK now tends to win the even skill 1v1 against MagSorcs.

Vengeance is a "prove to me" test that the real devs (the guys who write the actual code) are doing to prove to the "Product" folks that all of these multi-part abilities (i.e. Scribing) and all the AoEs (from both abilities and proc sets) are what causes there to be more calculations in one global cooldown than the server can handle when the population goes up and when ball groups are afoot (because all they do is spam Scribing and other abilities that have AoEs).

StaticWave · January 31

I’m an AD and I regularly run into an EP NB guild called “Lord of the Shafts”. All of them are coordinated gankblades sitting in stealth with 2-3 procs per player, all coordinating ganks on 1 target at a time. I’ve been ganked by them a lot and whenever I popped a stealth detect potion, they would sprint away with decent movement speed, while also having a burst heal to save themselves from execute range. It’s extremely frustrating to deal with them.

That kind of NB gameplay is why I and many others hate NB. Ironically, I’m not surprised they are complaining about Cloak nerf because their entire build revolves around it lmao.

Btw @ioResult , @Alchimiste1 is in my guild and we’ve sparred each other a lot. He runs a brawler NB and frequently does 1vXs in Cyrodiil. He also runs around with a gankblade group when he’s bored. I trust him when it comes to NB opinions.