Class balance

MincMincMinc

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

mariuszeb17_ESO5 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

...

I don't understand why you pasted those CMXs, for it to make sense they would have to come from one player. It's obvious that a less experienced player will do less dps regardless of class. And the thing is that Sorc make high damege even naked.
In PVP burst is killer not dps. Sorc has one of the greatest potentials in the game, despite its survivability and the ability to reset the fight - it is a problem.

I think alot of the issues people have with sorc and nightblade is the inherent design concept. Sorc and nb were always the solo high burst damage classes. Where templar, dk, warden, necro, arc all have vastly better grouplay potential. With standardization sadly we have seen a huge loss in class identity where all of the above group classes basically are the same thing.

Asking for the two solo burst classes to lose their identity is silly. If you take away streak from a stamsorc you just get a really *** stamden that can barely do damage and not heal or buff itself or the group.

Basically anyone can build to reset the fight..... for example just throw resto ult or spell wall on any class and spam RATs.

Comparing Streak and RAT is like comparing apples to winnebagos.

Resto ult... is an ult...

What? They both nearly instantly remove you from melee range? On stamsorc I use Rats half the time because the speed and snare removal will get me farther than streak would. Resto ult can be popped off every 15s with a 5s duration. If your fight that you need to reset is shorter than 10s you have other build issues to worry about.

Asking to remove streak is equivalent to asking to remove cloak from nightblade. Its been in the game for 10 years and is hardly an issue for average players. It is only an issue if you want to run down a player and YOU made the choice to not run a gap closer. Why is it sorc's fault that you are ignoring the counterplay available. I don't run an invis detect, you dont see me asking to remove cloak from the game because I made the choice to have a poorly equipped build.

Thumbless_Bot

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

mariuszeb17_ESO5 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

...

I don't understand why you pasted those CMXs, for it to make sense they would have to come from one player. It's obvious that a less experienced player will do less dps regardless of class. And the thing is that Sorc make high damege even naked.
In PVP burst is killer not dps. Sorc has one of the greatest potentials in the game, despite its survivability and the ability to reset the fight - it is a problem.

I think alot of the issues people have with sorc and nightblade is the inherent design concept. Sorc and nb were always the solo high burst damage classes. Where templar, dk, warden, necro, arc all have vastly better grouplay potential. With standardization sadly we have seen a huge loss in class identity where all of the above group classes basically are the same thing.

Asking for the two solo burst classes to lose their identity is silly. If you take away streak from a stamsorc you just get a really *** stamden that can barely do damage and not heal or buff itself or the group.

Basically anyone can build to reset the fight..... for example just throw resto ult or spell wall on any class and spam RATs.

Comparing Streak and RAT is like comparing apples to winnebagos.

Resto ult... is an ult...

What? They both nearly instantly remove you from melee range? On stamsorc I use Rats half the time because the speed and snare removal will get me farther than streak would. Resto ult can be popped off every 15s with a 5s duration. If your fight that you need to reset is shorter than 10s you have other build issues to worry about.

Asking to remove streak is equivalent to asking to remove cloak from nightblade. Its been in the game for 10 years and is hardly an issue for average players. It is only an issue if you want to run down a player and YOU made the choice to not run a gap closer. Why is it sorc's fault that you are ignoring the counterplay available. I don't run an invis detect, you dont see me asking to remove cloak from the game because I made the choice to have a poorly equipped build.

I'm just saying they are not interchangable and really not the same. Streak is a stun.

You can run wings too for snare removal. Now that is comparable to rat. One gives you 10% crit and the other gives you 5% damage while slotted.
about the same net damage. It's not the same as streak, which is a stun and takes a gcd plus reaction time from you to react. That gcd enables a second streak to get out of range/los or to turn and burn. Streak is probably more comparable to shattering rocks.

xylena_lazarow

MincMincMinc wrote: »

It is only an issue if you want to run down a player...

...or if multiple Sorcs want to run you down.

Streak was also my favorite part of playing StamSorc, so I'm ambivalent on this.

StaticWave

Why are people complaining about Streak lol... Every year there's always a Streak nerf thread, yet you don't see any magsorcs in Cyrodiil up until Ward buff.

It's not Streak that is the problem, end of story.

pecheckler

Streak is overpowered.

Deimus

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are people complaining about Streak lol... Every year there's always a Streak nerf thread, yet you don't see any magsorcs in Cyrodiil up until Ward buff.

It's not Streak that is the problem, end of story.

Streak is one of those bloated skills. It's the best mobility skill in the game serving as a gap closer, escape tool, deals damage, and stuns all in one button push.

While being an overloaded skill it was manageable without the addition of Hardened Ward. In the current meta both of these skills shouldn't remain at the level of power they have, especially since Streak is one of two skills in the game that lets you dictate the terms of engagement in combat. If Ward remains at its current level then Streak should have its travel distance shortened, the CC removed, or given a cooldown like Arcanist's Apocryphal Gate which has a 7 second cooldown despite being a worse skill than Streak in every conceivable way.

Or leave Streak alone and tone down Ward. Remove the heal, and have it scale only with Max HP instead of either Max HP or Max Magicka. Once again Hardened Ward is a superior version of Arcanist's Runeward having a high shield tooltip that lasts 6 seconds instead of 1 and not having to rely on crux for the healing aspect giving it the ability to be thoughtlessly spammed.

The combination of these two skills along with the utility of Dark Exchange allows for a near infinite defensive rotation of Ward, Streak, Streak, Dark Conversion. That's the issue and why Sorc need to be reigned in. It doesn't matter that it benefits ranged sorcs more than melee since hybridization makes a clear-cut superior build and going with melee is just a personal choice of style over function.

I get it, nobody wants their main to be Muatra'd 10 miles under Red Mountain and spend years trying to recover, but you can't be blind to the unbalanced performance those skills create together. Streak alone is fine, but with Hardened Ward it is a problem and vice versa.

xylena_lazarow

Deimus wrote: »

Streak alone is fine, but with Hardened Ward it is a problem and vice versa.

In other words, Streak was fine when DD Sorc was strictly a glass cannon. But now we have a meta where all 7 classes are tanky brawlers, and only 1 of them can also spam an instant teleport. Max range nuking compounds the problem.

TechMaybeHic

Seeing this thread makes me think part of tge reason the test Cyrodiil bugs me so much; is they put effort in combining some class skills and STILL seem to have no concern for balance.

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Seeing this thread makes me think part of tge reason the test Cyrodiil bugs me so much; is they put effort in combining some class skills and STILL seem to have no concern for balance.

Right? Still waiting to hear how stapling a burst heal to NB cloak is supposed to help performance.

Or how they could go over Necro without touching Sac Bones, the worst skill ever designed in any game.

sans-culottes

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Seeing this thread makes me think part of tge reason the test Cyrodiil bugs me so much; is they put effort in combining some class skills and STILL seem to have no concern for balance.

Right? Still waiting to hear how stapling a burst heal to NB cloak is supposed to help performance.

Or how they could go over Necro without touching Sac Bones, the worst skill ever designed in any game.

Right? Thank goodness the devs have been watching this wonderfully implemented skill and its universally beloved morph, Grave Lord’s Sacrifice!

MincMincMinc

Deimus wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are people complaining about Streak lol... Every year there's always a Streak nerf thread, yet you don't see any magsorcs in Cyrodiil up until Ward buff.

It's not Streak that is the problem, end of story.

Streak is one of those bloated skills. It's the best mobility skill in the game serving as a gap closer, escape tool, deals damage, and stuns all in one button push.

While being an overloaded skill it was manageable without the addition of Hardened Ward. In the current meta both of these skills shouldn't remain at the level of power they have, especially since Streak is one of two skills in the game that lets you dictate the terms of engagement in combat. If Ward remains at its current level then Streak should have its travel distance shortened, the CC removed, or given a cooldown like Arcanist's Apocryphal Gate which has a 7 second cooldown despite being a worse skill than Streak in every conceivable way.

Or leave Streak alone and tone down Ward. Remove the heal, and have it scale only with Max HP instead of either Max HP or Max Magicka. Once again Hardened Ward is a superior version of Arcanist's Runeward having a high shield tooltip that lasts 6 seconds instead of 1 and not having to rely on crux for the healing aspect giving it the ability to be thoughtlessly spammed.

The combination of these two skills along with the utility of Dark Exchange allows for a near infinite defensive rotation of Ward, Streak, Streak, Dark Conversion. That's the issue and why Sorc need to be reigned in. It doesn't matter that it benefits ranged sorcs more than melee since hybridization makes a clear-cut superior build and going with melee is just a personal choice of style over function.

I get it, nobody wants their main to be Muatra'd 10 miles under Red Mountain and spend years trying to recover, but you can't be blind to the unbalanced performance those skills create together. Streak alone is fine, but with Hardened Ward it is a problem and vice versa.

Your whole argument is that this skill is strong because if you also run this skill and this skill and this one its obviously the strongest........ dude you are just fluffing your argument. At face value streak is flat out beaten by gap closers, of which half of them have stuns and no ramping cost. At the same time almost every class/build has access to enough speed to keep up or pass a streak spammer which has been proven hundreds of times by now.

If I was to adjust things
-Streak only does a stun at the end location 5m radius like on vengeance.
-Ball of lightning does a stun at the starting location like it used to as a defensive escape tool.
-Hardened just shouldn't have a heal, its skill-flation at this point and the reason the Vengeance test has to happen. Cut the heal and make it just a ward.

xylena_lazarow

MincMincMinc wrote: »

At face value streak is flat out beaten by gap closers

And yet you rarely see gap closers slotted outside Rushing Agony cheese strats, because gap closers are a one way ticket that requires a target. Streak does what you want, when you want. You aren't even gap closing the Sorc if the Sorc refuses to engage inside your 22m gap closer range, and even then, one Streak stun and the Sorc is in the wind.

Teleporting glass cannons were fine. Tanky brawlers that can do everything, but also teleport and nuke you from max range, that's what's putting Sorc alone in S tier. But don't nerf Streak. Give everyone a spammable teleport. Buff that terrible slow clunky Vamp Mist skill and add a spammable teleport to Scribing (no not the backflip). Now Streak is fine.

MincMincMinc

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

At face value streak is flat out beaten by gap closers

And yet you rarely see gap closers slotted outside Rushing Agony cheese strats, because gap closers are a one way ticket that requires a target. Streak does what you want, when you want. You aren't even gap closing the Sorc if the Sorc refuses to engage inside your 22m gap closer range, and even then, one Streak stun and the Sorc is in the wind.

Teleporting glass cannons were fine. Tanky brawlers that can do everything, but also teleport and nuke you from max range, that's what's putting Sorc alone in S tier. But don't nerf Streak. Give everyone a spammable teleport. Buff that terrible slow clunky Vamp Mist skill and add a spammable teleport to Scribing (no not the backflip). Now Streak is fine.

People dont slot gap closers now because movement speed is high enough and sprint costs so little that you dont need them. It is better to slot the bloated extra passive skills like Evil hunter or magelight for example. I ran down several sorcs last night playing on warden who has one skill that does 6s major expedition AND 4s snare immunity AND a berserk buff AND regen passive AND a heal passive AND ult gen passive AND crit damage passive.

Streak is fine its just annoying to deal with just like cloak, or fossilize, or leap's gapRoot, or polarwind, or bombard, or charm, or goliath, or........ If we removed everything that could be annoying half the game would be removed. atleast proc damage sets would be gone I guess.

xylena_lazarow

MincMincMinc wrote: »

If we removed everything that could be annoying half the game would be removed. atleast proc damage sets would be gone I guess.

That's what they're trying to do with Vengeance right?

I'm not as optimistic about the class balance on Vengeance as you are. Burst heal cloak is an abomination.

At least on live it's really pretty good. Sorc could use a minor nerf, Necro Plar Arc some buffs.

MincMincMinc

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

If we removed everything that could be annoying half the game would be removed. atleast proc damage sets would be gone I guess.

That's what they're trying to do with Vengeance right?

I'm not as optimistic about the class balance on Vengeance as you are. Burst heal cloak is an abomination.

At least on live it's really pretty good. Sorc could use a minor nerf, Necro Plar Arc some buffs.

Yeah its nice on vengeance how skills have a true purpose in combat. Like I pointed out with warden's prey skill. Is there any reason why the active portion of the skill is maybe 1/6 the reason to slot the skill? Its nice to have the active matter most of all in combat. Using skills feels so much more impactful.

Optimism or not, we had 10 people dueling and going practically even score wise. Seems balanced enough for the purpose of the test. Maybe after a couple hundred hours of tourney testing you may find one class has a slight edge....but nothing you will determine by the end of the test. Again I will be testing the dlc classes, but if zos stuck to the same applied standard which it looks like they did, I expect they will also be balanced.

Part of me doesnt care much about the live balance as id rather them focus on expediting the new standardization or stat reworks. Otherwise balancing before the game changing reworks is silly and will become obsolete instantly. Starting out fresh with pvp versions of skills will be a good step to give balance tweak options in the future. Simplifying skills can also open doors for new skill lines or more specific morphs other than a stam morph or a mag morph.

I would rather see zos focus on:
- Stat rework, basically condense bloat like spell vs weapon crit..... just make it crit
- food imbalances that dont necessarily follow 2-4 piece bonuses
- mundus balance
- jewelery glyph balance
- Armor glyph balance (triglyphs CANNOT stay more efficient)
- Skill bloat, vengeance for example or my example with Prey where it has 5 or 6 passive buffs tacked on to an active skill.
- CC skill telegraphs and counterplay
- Set bonus reworks

StaticWave

Deimus wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are people complaining about Streak lol... Every year there's always a Streak nerf thread, yet you don't see any magsorcs in Cyrodiil up until Ward buff.

It's not Streak that is the problem, end of story.

Streak is one of those bloated skills. It's the best mobility skill in the game serving as a gap closer, escape tool, deals damage, and stuns all in one button push.

While being an overloaded skill it was manageable without the addition of Hardened Ward. In the current meta both of these skills shouldn't remain at the level of power they have, especially since Streak is one of two skills in the game that lets you dictate the terms of engagement in combat. If Ward remains at its current level then Streak should have its travel distance shortened, the CC removed, or given a cooldown like Arcanist's Apocryphal Gate which has a 7 second cooldown despite being a worse skill than Streak in every conceivable way.

Or leave Streak alone and tone down Ward. Remove the heal, and have it scale only with Max HP instead of either Max HP or Max Magicka. Once again Hardened Ward is a superior version of Arcanist's Runeward having a high shield tooltip that lasts 6 seconds instead of 1 and not having to rely on crux for the healing aspect giving it the ability to be thoughtlessly spammed.

The combination of these two skills along with the utility of Dark Exchange allows for a near infinite defensive rotation of Ward, Streak, Streak, Dark Conversion. That's the issue and why Sorc need to be reigned in. It doesn't matter that it benefits ranged sorcs more than melee since hybridization makes a clear-cut superior build and going with melee is just a personal choice of style over function.

I get it, nobody wants their main to be Muatra'd 10 miles under Red Mountain and spend years trying to recover, but you can't be blind to the unbalanced performance those skills create together. Streak alone is fine, but with Hardened Ward it is a problem and vice versa.

Streak in its current state has never and will never be a problem. Saying Streak deserves to be nerfed because "Streak + Ward is OP" is disingenuous. Why not just nerf Hardened Ward then? I was one of the first people to make a thread about Ward being OP when I tested on PTS. It has nothing to do with Streak lol. Why are people touching a skill that has not been a problem for years. It makes no sense to me, and it's not like I haven't demonstrated how easy it can be to shut down a Streak user completely...

StaticWave

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Vaqual

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

StaticWave

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

Zabagad

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

At least I agree

Vaqual

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

You basically ignored the premise of my post and just got back to the same routine of incomplete arguments.
No one is asking for streak to be taken away.
No one claims that Streak is a 100%-failsafe escape tool.
You have to be honest with what the ability can do. Do you want people to post Youtube videos with successful Streak-escapes, jukes, burst-setups? Isn't it already obvious? Is showcasing a severely outnumbered scenario really the best to prove your point?
The Sorc kit as a whole is unfun to deal with at this point in time, and an ability that was tolerable before due to certain weakpoints now isn't tolerable anymore. Whether you now run Ward (which is objectively the worst offender for obvious reasons), Scribing Heals or Vibrant (as in your case), the classes overall potential just isn't the same as before. There is no need for it to be carried by an overtuned ability.

Minc made a reasonable suggestion, when he said "Streak only does a stun at the end location 5m radius like on vengeance". That is the direction of adjustment I generally agree with. A skilled player can still loop the Streak to stick the landing, while it is no longer possible to gain an escape advantage (through the unavoidable stun) with an about-face Streak or by Streaking while the enemy is moving around in close melee range. Another aspect that could be altered would be the unblockable/undodgeable nature of the ability by limiting it to one of the two. Or instead of penalizing cost, the travel distance could be reduced for consecutive uses with a slightly longer debuff time. The are multiple angles to shave off a bit of power to bring the class back in line, depending on which aspect is actually valued more (control or disengage). This is also an opportunity to make BoL a real option.

And, no offense, Turtle_Bot agreeing with you would not quite compel me to change my mind, that I take for granted.

StaticWave

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

You basically ignored the premise of my post and just got back to the same routine of incomplete arguments.
No one is asking for streak to be taken away.
No one claims that Streak is a 100%-failsafe escape tool.
You have to be honest with what the ability can do. Do you want people to post Youtube videos with successful Streak-escapes, jukes, burst-setups? Isn't it already obvious? Is showcasing a severely outnumbered scenario really the best to prove your point?
The Sorc kit as a whole is unfun to deal with at this point in time, and an ability that was tolerable before due to certain weakpoints now isn't tolerable anymore. Whether you now run Ward (which is objectively the worst offender for obvious reasons), Scribing Heals or Vibrant (as in your case), the classes overall potential just isn't the same as before. There is no need for it to be carried by an overtuned ability.

Minc made a reasonable suggestion, when he said "Streak only does a stun at the end location 5m radius like on vengeance". That is the direction of adjustment I generally agree with. A skilled player can still loop the Streak to stick the landing, while it is no longer possible to gain an escape advantage (through the unavoidable stun) with an about-face Streak or by Streaking while the enemy is moving around in close melee range. Another aspect that could be altered would be the unblockable/undodgeable nature of the ability by limiting it to one of the two. Or instead of penalizing cost, the travel distance could be reduced for consecutive uses with a slightly longer debuff time. The are multiple angles to shave off a bit of power to bring the class back in line, depending on which aspect is actually valued more (control or disengage). This is also an opportunity to make BoL a real option.

And, no offense, Turtle_Bot agreeing with you would not quite compel me to change my mind, that I take for granted.

Nerfing Streak without addressing movement speed isn’t going to solve anything and would in fact exacerbate the issue. Sorcs will now build tankier than before to compensate for the loss of their core ability and be harder to kill. They will also become another generic class, at which point it’s better to just play the other classes lol.

There is a reason why Streak has not been touched for 5 years despite constantly being complained about.

Major_Toughness

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Chilly-McFreeze

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Hu? He streaked twice, used LoS to get off an Dark Deal. The first opponent was already there before the DD was over. That's the point. Not what he did 5 seconds later by streaking back to the corner post.

Major_Toughness

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Hu? He streaked twice, used LoS to get off an Dark Deal. The first opponent was already there before the DD was over. That's the point. Not what he did 5 seconds later by streaking back to the corner post.

So standing still for 5 seconds and then going back towards the pack of enemies was the right play instead of just streaking a third time and being uncatchable by all of them?

MincMincMinc

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Are we watching the same vid? They literally caught up to him lol, the only other option was to keep going along the bottom wall or circle around into the courtyard. The best course of action would have been to streak back through them. Which he did.

Major_Toughness

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Are we watching the same vid? They literally caught up to him lol, the only other option was to keep going along the bottom wall or circle around into the courtyard. The best course of action would have been to streak back through them. Which he did.

Only because he stood still. I don't see what's so hard to understand. Had he kept going he would have maintained space.

In streaking back "through" the two people who had caught up after going AFK under the stairs, he ends up in the middle of rest who were no where near him. So instead of only two people near him, he has eight.

MincMincMinc

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Are we watching the same vid? They literally caught up to him lol, the only other option was to keep going along the bottom wall or circle around into the courtyard. The best course of action would have been to streak back through them. Which he did.

Only because he stood still. I don't see what's so hard to understand. Had he kept going he would have maintained space.

In streaking back "through" the two people who had caught up after going AFK under the stairs, he ends up in the middle of rest who were no where near him. So instead of only two people near him, he has eight.

IDK dude, he got out of line of sight and only got 1gcd off..... that isn't exactly home free or busted in my mind after dropping 8-10k in mag.

If you want to prove streak is busted, go make a vid showing you vs a warden running from nikel to roe. Go show a vid of you running from a gap close spammer. Its all build relative, dont complain if you build like a sloth and someone doesnt. Speed is so easy to obtain now adays.

Major_Toughness

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Are we watching the same vid? They literally caught up to him lol, the only other option was to keep going along the bottom wall or circle around into the courtyard. The best course of action would have been to streak back through them. Which he did.

Only because he stood still. I don't see what's so hard to understand. Had he kept going he would have maintained space.

In streaking back "through" the two people who had caught up after going AFK under the stairs, he ends up in the middle of rest who were no where near him. So instead of only two people near him, he has eight.

IDK dude, he got out of line of sight and only got 1gcd off..... that isn't exactly home free or busted in my mind after dropping 8-10k in mag.

If you want to prove streak is busted, go make a vid showing you vs a warden running from nikel to roe. Go show a vid of you running from a gap close spammer. Its all build relative, dont complain if you build like a sloth and someone doesnt. Speed is so easy to obtain now adays.

So why not run speed on sorc?

xylena_lazarow

Vaqual wrote: »

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

I've been saying for years that Sorc needs a class source of major crit, they could nerf Streak but staple a double bar major crit buff to it and now Sorc is less annoying to fight against, but also functions more smoothly. Really they need something like the Cloak nerf where it's just as good tactically, but punishes the spam and hard crutching.