Class balance

Turtle_Bot

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

I'm not sure where this misconception about streak is coming from, I used to do the exact play being described here of casting the 3rd or 4th streak to "put more distance" and I can say with 100% certainty that what static did by using LoS to cast a dark deal then streaking back through the pack (forcing them to turn their cameras 180) is the correct play to kite people chasing you that aggressively, especially inside keeps and even more so when your group (or even just random allies) are back in that direction.

Every time I did that 3rd or 4th streak (or repeated the streak into exchange into streak "combo") it didn't matter how many times I streaked/exchanged then streaked again, even the so called slow moving classes (DK/Plar) would always stay right on my tail just using RaT and sprint, all the while casting abilities on me. Streak was never fast enough to create such a gap that is being described, the chasers were always on top of me (or at least close enough to chain pull me back into them) the whole time. Most notable time this happened (was before ward buff) was a DK and plar chased me from BLK to Ales on foot, casting abilities on me the whole time I was streaking and using LoS (the LoS was the only reason I survived that) and they just used RaT and short burst sprinted between casts. That moment stuck out to me that movement speed in ESO had reached breaking point, where the slow classes literally had enough baseline speed to completely nullify the speed class's niche.

Just watching the video, it's easy to see with how quick the group caught up (you say 1-2, but the rest that chased were literally melee distance behind those first 2) that had static kept streaking it would never have been just a "third or forth" streak to escape that group, you're talking bare minimum 6+ streaks in a row with no stopping to dark deal (get back mag), something that even max mag (60k+) sorcs cannot do outside of being full 60k mag at the start of the streak chain due to how fast the ramping cost adds up on repeated casts after the 4th cast (you're talking a 16k mag cost on the 5th cast, nearly 20k cost on the 6th, where max mag sorcs literally only barely get to cast that 6th cast before the ramping costs gets reset, it's down to less than 1 second left on the ramping cost such that with high ping/ping spikes, sometimes the cost resets before you have enough mag to do that 6th cast).

What has also been missed by those quick to dismiss statics video is that the best option in this situation is to go back through the pack since that tower behind the pack is where the rest of his group (trio) is fighting, so at the bare minimum, he gets to link back up with them for extra heals, buffs etc (notice how one of the other sorcs streaks through the group at 0:54 - 0:55) that streak through the group as they rounded the corner into static is likely the only reason static lived for as long as he did against that group (as someone who has been in that situation as a solo player countless times before, I can say with certainty that specific streak stun saved static there as I have died countless times in that exact situation due to not having an ally to stun the chasing group to give me extra reprieve).

Turtle_Bot

As a side note, for some people not changing their mind on the topic of streak, I don't care if they do change their mind or not, and I'm not going to bother wasting time trying to convince clearly closed minds, because interactions in past threads have proven beyond any doubt that such opinions on sorc are nothing but complete bias and should be treated as such.

Major_Toughness

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As a side note, for some people not changing their mind on the topic of streak, I don't care if they do change their mind or not, and I'm not going to bother wasting time trying to convince clearly closed minds, because interactions in past threads have proven beyond any doubt that such opinions on sorc are nothing but complete bias and should be treated as such.

I think it's hard to talk about bias and closed minds when the only people you listen to are die-hard sorc mains who play nothing else and agree with you.

That is called an echo-chamber.

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

such opinions on sorc are nothing but complete bias and should be treated as such.

Well here's another opinion on Streak directly from my 4+ years maining MDW StamSorc to GO.

Streak is by far the most fun thing about Sorc. It also lets me play like a total idiot and not get punished for it. If I get too thirsty, I can still blink away. If I get lazy on my positioning, I can still blink away. Take that as you will.

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

I've been saying for years that Sorc needs a class source of major crit, they could nerf Streak but staple a double bar major crit buff to it and now Sorc is less annoying to fight against, but also functions more smoothly. Really they need something like the Cloak nerf where it's just as good tactically, but punishes the spam and hard crutching.

This is why I still think changing bound armor/morphs is the way to go, remove the max stats and give it major crit chance while slotted on either bar instead. Sorc is still slightly better than the other classes at stacking max stats thanks to expert summoner, but now its not so far ahead of the rest of the classes when it comes to max stat builds.

big nerf specifically to ward (which is the whole reason sorc became so strong in the first place)
the extra crit chance balances out the damage lost from the loss of max stats
allows the morphs to be chosen based on role instead of max resource colour
finally fills in the basic buff the class kit has been lacking despite being designed around it since forever

1 single change addresses basically all of the issues with sorc from both sides of the argument (ward nerfed = sorcs killable if chased down is the main argument from non-sorcs and sorcs lack of crit in a clearly crit chanced based kit and the unfinished hybridization of sorcs kit being a pain point for sorcs). Literally a win-win for everyone with 1 single change.

TechMaybeHic

I also like streak and would rather it not be blasted.

Really, for a stam sorc or just melee; it's harder to get away with streak. It's just gotten stupid with how much range damage there is out there now, already being out of gap closer range, and now really having as much durability as a melee fighter, and the massive battery magsorc can have thats a problem.

sans-culottes

Meanwhile, Necromancers are still stuck with Grave Lord’s Sacrifice

MincMincMinc

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Are we watching the same vid? They literally caught up to him lol, the only other option was to keep going along the bottom wall or circle around into the courtyard. The best course of action would have been to streak back through them. Which he did.

Only because he stood still. I don't see what's so hard to understand. Had he kept going he would have maintained space.

In streaking back "through" the two people who had caught up after going AFK under the stairs, he ends up in the middle of rest who were no where near him. So instead of only two people near him, he has eight.

IDK dude, he got out of line of sight and only got 1gcd off..... that isn't exactly home free or busted in my mind after dropping 8-10k in mag.

If you want to prove streak is busted, go make a vid showing you vs a warden running from nikel to roe. Go show a vid of you running from a gap close spammer. Its all build relative, dont complain if you build like a sloth and someone doesnt. Speed is so easy to obtain now adays.

So why not run speed on sorc?

Generally it is not worth it since stamsorc has to make up for not having basic major buffs like prophecy. You will pigeon hole yourself in the direction of just speed and have no damage/heal/tankiness.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

I've been saying for years that Sorc needs a class source of major crit, they could nerf Streak but staple a double bar major crit buff to it and now Sorc is less annoying to fight against, but also functions more smoothly. Really they need something like the Cloak nerf where it's just as good tactically, but punishes the spam and hard crutching.

Partly zos needs to finish the stat consolidation like how they combined pen and somewhat combined armor. At least you could do the potions. Which the potion buffs could also be addressed. Asking for class balance before they address multiple core stat sources/buffs is pointless from a design standpoint.

I always found it funny that critsurge requires you to build for crit and also be on the offensive for heals, yet warden has better heals on skills like vines for instance that just runs automatically. To top it off sorc doesn't have major crit or another crit buff available. Itd probably be better to put major crit on something like Bound armaments instead of the stam boost, but this is just more power creep added to the game. Almost everyone at this rate will have every buff on their build.

Without streak why bother playing stamsorc, warden is better in every way? My warden practically plays itself even with half my passives missing skill points I can tank more players 1vX in open field and close out kills easier. Warden just doesn't have the same nostalgia fun of zipping around.

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

such opinions on sorc are nothing but complete bias and should be treated as such.

Well here's another opinion on Streak directly from my 4+ years maining MDW StamSorc to GO.

Streak is by far the most fun thing about Sorc. It also lets me play like a total idiot and not get punished for it. If I get too thirsty, I can still blink away. If I get lazy on my positioning, I can still blink away. Take that as you will.

9+ years (will be 10 in a few months) here as a magsorc main.

Streak is definitely one of the most fun things about sorc. (this we agree on)
Does streak grant some flexibility in certain situations that other classes don't have? yes (this we agree on)
Do other classes have abilities that grant them flexibility in other situations that streak doesn't? Also yes. (I assume this we also agree on)
Does streak allow me to play like a total idiot and not get punished for it? Only if I'm fighting with a significant advantage in terms of skill difference over my opponent. (this is where I think we partially disagree, not that I think it cannot do this, but the circumstances allowing it to do this is where we have differing opinions)

Against an equally skilled opponent (or even just an especially thirsty one), if I play like an idiot and rely on streak to crutch me out of everything, I get hard punished 99 times out of 100.

Streak is similar to Corrosive. Playing a DK and relying on corrosive to crutch carry you is just begging to eat the dirt against any decent player. Combining corrosive with other defensive tools and smart gameplay is how to get the most out of corrosive and make it seem much stronger than it really is, much more so than simply pressing the button and hoping that reducing all damage taken to 3% will give you god-mode for its duration (a very common mistake among beginner DKs).

Combining streak alongside tools like ward make it seem much stronger than it actually is, especially when those other tools are/were very overtuned on their own. We saw what it was like when the tools were not good enough (pre-ward buff), we have also seen what its like when those tools are too strong (post ward buff), we are also seeing a more middle ground (post ward nerf) right now where wardsorcs are much easier to deal with (as you yourself have stated).

MincMincMinc

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

such opinions on sorc are nothing but complete bias and should be treated as such.

Well here's another opinion on Streak directly from my 4+ years maining MDW StamSorc to GO.

Streak is by far the most fun thing about Sorc. It also lets me play like a total idiot and not get punished for it. If I get too thirsty, I can still blink away. If I get lazy on my positioning, I can still blink away. Take that as you will.

This is why I was against the darkdeal change where they gave resource over time. If a sorc was bad and extended too far they could be punished much easier since they relied on a flat return. The over time provided too much of a cushion from a usability standpoint.

Major_Toughness

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Are we watching the same vid? They literally caught up to him lol, the only other option was to keep going along the bottom wall or circle around into the courtyard. The best course of action would have been to streak back through them. Which he did.

Only because he stood still. I don't see what's so hard to understand. Had he kept going he would have maintained space.

In streaking back "through" the two people who had caught up after going AFK under the stairs, he ends up in the middle of rest who were no where near him. So instead of only two people near him, he has eight.

IDK dude, he got out of line of sight and only got 1gcd off..... that isn't exactly home free or busted in my mind after dropping 8-10k in mag.

If you want to prove streak is busted, go make a vid showing you vs a warden running from nikel to roe. Go show a vid of you running from a gap close spammer. Its all build relative, dont complain if you build like a sloth and someone doesnt. Speed is so easy to obtain now adays.

So why not run speed on sorc?

Generally it is not worth it since stamsorc has to make up for not having basic major buffs like prophecy. You will pigeon hole yourself in the direction of just speed and have no damage/heal/tankiness.

You and Static both said in previous comments that getting movement speed is "too easy", so that doesn't quite align with this latest comment.

Surely other classes have to sacrifice something else how are they getting movement speed, and where are they getting it from?

Swift you have to sacrifice jewelry traits.
Celerity you have to sacrifice red slottable CP, on top of having to sacrifice one for Bastion even though you run no shields just because Sorcs are dominating the game.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention gap-closers. In order to have a gap closer you have to sacrifice a bar slot, just to try and catch up with a Streak.

Turtle_Bot

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Are we watching the same vid? They literally caught up to him lol, the only other option was to keep going along the bottom wall or circle around into the courtyard. The best course of action would have been to streak back through them. Which he did.

Only because he stood still. I don't see what's so hard to understand. Had he kept going he would have maintained space.

In streaking back "through" the two people who had caught up after going AFK under the stairs, he ends up in the middle of rest who were no where near him. So instead of only two people near him, he has eight.

IDK dude, he got out of line of sight and only got 1gcd off..... that isn't exactly home free or busted in my mind after dropping 8-10k in mag.

If you want to prove streak is busted, go make a vid showing you vs a warden running from nikel to roe. Go show a vid of you running from a gap close spammer. Its all build relative, dont complain if you build like a sloth and someone doesnt. Speed is so easy to obtain now adays.

So why not run speed on sorc?

Generally it is not worth it since stamsorc has to make up for not having basic major buffs like prophecy. You will pigeon hole yourself in the direction of just speed and have no damage/heal/tankiness.

You and Static both said in previous comments that getting movement speed is "too easy", so that doesn't quite align with this latest comment.

Surely other classes have to sacrifice something else how are they getting movement speed, and where are they getting it from?

Swift you have to sacrifice jewelry traits.
Celerity you have to sacrifice red slottable CP, on top of having to sacrifice one for Bastion even though you run no shields just because Sorcs are dominating the game.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention gap-closers. In order to have a gap closer you have to sacrifice a bar slot, just to try and catch up with a Streak.

Jewelry traits - Other classes aren't pushed into running max stat builds so they get to make up this "downside" inherently in their class kits by turning max stats into a dump stat and can invest those points that would be spent on max stats into health/sustain (for defense) or other ways to gain damage, thereby reducing the "loss" from running swift over infused/bloodthirsty traits.
Celerity - Other classes have a lot more direct mitigation (not wards, but actual reduction of damage taken) within their class passives and secondary effects on their abilities. For a sorc giving up major protection is, at the bare minimum, 5% reduced mitigation (10% of the 50% mitigation value after 33k armor), while other classes will have other unique mitigation bonuses inherently in their kits so not running that 4th mitigation CP is more like 2-3% reduced mitigation. Combine this with other classes (before ward) superior healing capabilities that scaled off their weapon/spell damage or max health and there was no need for that 4th mitigation CP, which freed it up for celerity.
Gap closers - No need to slot these, as I pointed out with jewelry traits and celerity, other classes give up much less to gain additional baseline speed, allowing more free points in their power budget to use for extra baseline speed while maintaining that baseline level of damage and mitigation, so much so that there is no real need to run gap closers unless you like the abilites.

Post ward buff ward sorcs got to do this too since they didn't need to build weapon/spell damage since ward scaled off max mag (basically they got given the same "big heal scales off easy to build into damage stat" that sorc was excluded from having before ward buff), but that has since seen a nerf, and as some have point out (even some who have been very vocal in the past against post ward buff sorcs), sorcs have gotten a lot easier to deal with since the ward nerf, meaning that sorcs are now having to invest more into other areas to make up for the ward nerf, so many are likely dropping that celerity slottable CP or swift jewelry trait etc).

Turtle_Bot

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

such opinions on sorc are nothing but complete bias and should be treated as such.

Well here's another opinion on Streak directly from my 4+ years maining MDW StamSorc to GO.

Streak is by far the most fun thing about Sorc. It also lets me play like a total idiot and not get punished for it. If I get too thirsty, I can still blink away. If I get lazy on my positioning, I can still blink away. Take that as you will.

This is why I was against the darkdeal change where they gave resource over time. If a sorc was bad and extended too far they could be punished much easier since they relied on a flat return. The over time provided too much of a cushion from a usability standpoint.

that definitely makes a difference to sustain, not sure how I feel about it. I like that having it allows some build flexibility for back bar options, and removing it would basically force wretched to be mandatory on the back bar for sorcs, but I can see why it's causing issues (tbh this is just a general issue with overall sustain in the game though, and not really exclusive to sorc)

MincMincMinc

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Are we watching the same vid? They literally caught up to him lol, the only other option was to keep going along the bottom wall or circle around into the courtyard. The best course of action would have been to streak back through them. Which he did.

Only because he stood still. I don't see what's so hard to understand. Had he kept going he would have maintained space.

In streaking back "through" the two people who had caught up after going AFK under the stairs, he ends up in the middle of rest who were no where near him. So instead of only two people near him, he has eight.

IDK dude, he got out of line of sight and only got 1gcd off..... that isn't exactly home free or busted in my mind after dropping 8-10k in mag.

If you want to prove streak is busted, go make a vid showing you vs a warden running from nikel to roe. Go show a vid of you running from a gap close spammer. Its all build relative, dont complain if you build like a sloth and someone doesnt. Speed is so easy to obtain now adays.

So why not run speed on sorc?

Generally it is not worth it since stamsorc has to make up for not having basic major buffs like prophecy. You will pigeon hole yourself in the direction of just speed and have no damage/heal/tankiness.

You and Static both said in previous comments that getting movement speed is "too easy", so that doesn't quite align with this latest comment.

Surely other classes have to sacrifice something else how are they getting movement speed, and where are they getting it from?

Swift you have to sacrifice jewelry traits.
Celerity you have to sacrifice red slottable CP, on top of having to sacrifice one for Bastion even though you run no shields just because Sorcs are dominating the game.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention gap-closers. In order to have a gap closer you have to sacrifice a bar slot, just to try and catch up with a Streak.

Yeah look at warden for example, you can run prey for 30% speed and immunity(30%+ depending) vs streak which doesnt remove snares. There is no real point to run streak and Rats. You already get minor force from DD. Slotting Rats also makes you lose passives. Streak was fine for many years before speed got doubled. The options are there, you just ignore to use them to counter a particular playstyle.

To counter nb you have to slot an invis detect, I CHOOSE to not run one. I do not expect all nbs to bend to my will of blatantly CHOOSING to not engage in build counterplay. By your logic we should remove cloak and invis entirely from the game because I simply am feeling lazy today and dont want to make potions or slot a stealth detect.

Major_Toughness

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Are we watching the same vid? They literally caught up to him lol, the only other option was to keep going along the bottom wall or circle around into the courtyard. The best course of action would have been to streak back through them. Which he did.

Only because he stood still. I don't see what's so hard to understand. Had he kept going he would have maintained space.

In streaking back "through" the two people who had caught up after going AFK under the stairs, he ends up in the middle of rest who were no where near him. So instead of only two people near him, he has eight.

IDK dude, he got out of line of sight and only got 1gcd off..... that isn't exactly home free or busted in my mind after dropping 8-10k in mag.

If you want to prove streak is busted, go make a vid showing you vs a warden running from nikel to roe. Go show a vid of you running from a gap close spammer. Its all build relative, dont complain if you build like a sloth and someone doesnt. Speed is so easy to obtain now adays.

So why not run speed on sorc?

Generally it is not worth it since stamsorc has to make up for not having basic major buffs like prophecy. You will pigeon hole yourself in the direction of just speed and have no damage/heal/tankiness.

You and Static both said in previous comments that getting movement speed is "too easy", so that doesn't quite align with this latest comment.

Surely other classes have to sacrifice something else how are they getting movement speed, and where are they getting it from?

Swift you have to sacrifice jewelry traits.
Celerity you have to sacrifice red slottable CP, on top of having to sacrifice one for Bastion even though you run no shields just because Sorcs are dominating the game.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention gap-closers. In order to have a gap closer you have to sacrifice a bar slot, just to try and catch up with a Streak.

Yeah look at warden for example, you can run prey for 30% speed and immunity(30%+ depending) vs streak which doesnt remove snares. There is no real point to run streak and Rats. You already get minor force from DD. Slotting Rats also makes you lose passives. Streak was fine for many years before speed got doubled. The options are there, you just ignore to use them to counter a particular playstyle.

To counter nb you have to slot an invis detect, I CHOOSE to not run one. I do not expect all nbs to bend to my will of blatantly CHOOSING to not engage in build counterplay. By your logic we should remove cloak and invis entirely from the game because I simply am feeling lazy today and dont want to make potions or slot a stealth detect.

When did speed get doubled? Isn't movement cap 200% still?

They introduced Swift in 2018 and have since reduced its value, RaT was the same time and it's never been a problem for Sorcs.

So you are saying NB cloak is fine because you can choose to make build sacrifices (Detec pots, AoEs, Camo hunter) in order to counter it? Within the same logic Streak is fine because you can choose to make build sacrifices (Speed, gap closers) to counter it?

MincMincMinc

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

such opinions on sorc are nothing but complete bias and should be treated as such.

Well here's another opinion on Streak directly from my 4+ years maining MDW StamSorc to GO.

Streak is by far the most fun thing about Sorc. It also lets me play like a total idiot and not get punished for it. If I get too thirsty, I can still blink away. If I get lazy on my positioning, I can still blink away. Take that as you will.

This is why I was against the darkdeal change where they gave resource over time. If a sorc was bad and extended too far they could be punished much easier since they relied on a flat return. The over time provided too much of a cushion from a usability standpoint.

that definitely makes a difference to sustain, not sure how I feel about it. I like that having it allows some build flexibility for back bar options, and removing it would basically force wretched to be mandatory on the back bar for sorcs, but I can see why it's causing issues (tbh this is just a general issue with overall sustain in the game though, and not really exclusive to sorc)

The issue with "diversity" is that they designed warden and then tried to change every class to be more like it. Sorc sustain was always supposed to be a high max stat, lower cost, deficit on regen. The concept was that you would be gassing yourself out all of the time and then have to come up for air.

Except now sorcs have low costs and free regen from power creep in foods, mundus, racials, weapon damage enchants that were already more efficient and now have extra regen, new regen passives, etc. I used to play stamsorc 1vX on base regen and now by default I practically sit at 2k-2.7k stam regen. There is no gassing out anymore. I have to actively find ways to not have regen in my builds because it is so worthless.

StaticWave

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As a side note, for some people not changing their mind on the topic of streak, I don't care if they do change their mind or not, and I'm not going to bother wasting time trying to convince clearly closed minds, because interactions in past threads have proven beyond any doubt that such opinions on sorc are nothing but complete bias and should be treated as such.

I think it's hard to talk about bias and closed minds when the only people you listen to are die-hard sorc mains who play nothing else and agree with you.

That is called an echo-chamber.

I did not Streak a third time because it was a pointless waste of resource. That NB was spamming gap closers on me from 0:29 to 0:31. If you paused the video, you could see the gap closer animation. A third Streak would have been pointless.

Also, I have done that play many many times and the correct play was to get to the nearest line of sight, which I did, recast some of my buffs, which I also did, and then Streaking through them to stun and return to my team. That is how you’re supposed to kite as a non optimized team, not run off into the distance leaving your teammate to die.

I play Warden, DK, Necro, Templar, and NB. Sorc is the most fun class for me, so I main it. I’ve been 1vXing for years on Sorc even when it was a trash class and Warden was top tier. Logically speaking, me playing a stronger class would make it easier, don’t you think?

MincMincMinc

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Are we watching the same vid? They literally caught up to him lol, the only other option was to keep going along the bottom wall or circle around into the courtyard. The best course of action would have been to streak back through them. Which he did.

Only because he stood still. I don't see what's so hard to understand. Had he kept going he would have maintained space.

In streaking back "through" the two people who had caught up after going AFK under the stairs, he ends up in the middle of rest who were no where near him. So instead of only two people near him, he has eight.

IDK dude, he got out of line of sight and only got 1gcd off..... that isn't exactly home free or busted in my mind after dropping 8-10k in mag.

If you want to prove streak is busted, go make a vid showing you vs a warden running from nikel to roe. Go show a vid of you running from a gap close spammer. Its all build relative, dont complain if you build like a sloth and someone doesnt. Speed is so easy to obtain now adays.

So why not run speed on sorc?

Generally it is not worth it since stamsorc has to make up for not having basic major buffs like prophecy. You will pigeon hole yourself in the direction of just speed and have no damage/heal/tankiness.

You and Static both said in previous comments that getting movement speed is "too easy", so that doesn't quite align with this latest comment.

Surely other classes have to sacrifice something else how are they getting movement speed, and where are they getting it from?

Swift you have to sacrifice jewelry traits.
Celerity you have to sacrifice red slottable CP, on top of having to sacrifice one for Bastion even though you run no shields just because Sorcs are dominating the game.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention gap-closers. In order to have a gap closer you have to sacrifice a bar slot, just to try and catch up with a Streak.

Yeah look at warden for example, you can run prey for 30% speed and immunity(30%+ depending) vs streak which doesnt remove snares. There is no real point to run streak and Rats. You already get minor force from DD. Slotting Rats also makes you lose passives. Streak was fine for many years before speed got doubled. The options are there, you just ignore to use them to counter a particular playstyle.

To counter nb you have to slot an invis detect, I CHOOSE to not run one. I do not expect all nbs to bend to my will of blatantly CHOOSING to not engage in build counterplay. By your logic we should remove cloak and invis entirely from the game because I simply am feeling lazy today and dont want to make potions or slot a stealth detect.

When did speed get doubled? Isn't movement cap 200% still?

They introduced Swift in 2018 and have since reduced its value, RaT was the same time and it's never been a problem for Sorcs.

So you are saying NB cloak is fine because you can choose to make build sacrifices (Detec pots, AoEs, Camo hunter) in order to counter it? Within the same logic Streak is fine because you can choose to make build sacrifices (Speed, gap closers) to counter it?

I have a whole thread on this somewhere if you search pts movement speed should be addressed.

Pre summerset people were at 110-140 movement speed at most.(not exactly the speed cap) Most people however didnt run any unless you were in a dedicated ball group with rapids or ran the potions which were typically only 1vXers.

Post summerset in murkmire they did reduce them by 3% each. Because zos knew it was a problem to have players WALKING too fast. Now you add in medium armor+celerity+bosmer+swift+maj+minor and you are easily at 177-192 compared to the old 100-140 range WALKING. If you really want, you dont need sprint as a mechanic in the game now.

Again, if you want to easily run down a particular build slot the counterplay available. If you want to run down a sorc, slot speed or a gap closer. If you want to run down a nightblade slot invis detect. If you want to deal with a dk, slot immunities, If you want to deal with a templar, well anyone can deal with a templar these days.

StaticWave

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

Are we watching the same vid? They literally caught up to him lol, the only other option was to keep going along the bottom wall or circle around into the courtyard. The best course of action would have been to streak back through them. Which he did.

Only because he stood still. I don't see what's so hard to understand. Had he kept going he would have maintained space.

In streaking back "through" the two people who had caught up after going AFK under the stairs, he ends up in the middle of rest who were no where near him. So instead of only two people near him, he has eight.

Did you not see the NB gap closing twice lol? Going in a straight line would’ve let him get another gap close off. I went to the side to break line of sight, let my Streak penalty wear out, get another buff up, and reassess the fight from cover. Most people would have continued Streaking and drying up their mag pool, which will get them killed. I’ve been in that situation countless times and made the correct move.

From 0:32 where I side stepped to 0:33, the NB was ALREADY on me, followed by another player at 0:34. That’s literally 1-2 seconds of breathing room after casting the 2nd Streak lol. Casting a 3rd Streak would not have mattered in the slightest.

IncultaWolf

rrbreezy wrote: »

Meanwhile, Necromancers are still stuck with Grave Lord’s Sacrifice

Yes 💀

StaticWave

Major_Toughness wrote: »

You and Static both said in previous comments that getting movement speed is "too easy", so that doesn't quite align with this latest comment.

Surely other classes have to sacrifice something else how are they getting movement speed, and where are they getting it from?

Swift you have to sacrifice jewelry traits.
Celerity you have to sacrifice red slottable CP, on top of having to sacrifice one for Bastion even though you run no shields just because Sorcs are dominating the game.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention gap-closers. In order to have a gap closer you have to sacrifice a bar slot, just to try and catch up with a Streak.

- Every class gets access to Race Against Time, which not only gives 4s of Major Expedition and 20s of Minor Force, but also removes snares/root and gives 4s of immunity vs them, all for a cost of a little over 2.7k mag
- Warden has Bird of Prey, which gives Minor Berserk, 6s of Major Expedition, and 4s of snare/root immunity
- NB has Refreshing Path which provides AoE Major Expedition, an AoE heal every second, and Minor Intellect + Endurance. NB also gets Minor Expedition by slotting their class spammable
- DK has Chains, which is a gap closer that also provides Major Expedition

You aren’t really sacrificing much by slotting Race Against Time, Bird of Prey, or Refreshing Path. All 3 abilities are very loaded and will give you more benefits than the cost of 1 bar slot.

Meanwhile, Sorc gets Minor Expedition via Hurricane, which is a strong skill no doubt. However, there is simply no bar space on this class, meaning as a Sorc you have to decide between Streak or Race Against Time. If you pick Race Against Time, then why not just play Warden or NB? Both of them have more efficient bar space, better AoE and group utility, and more buffs. Why play Sorc at that point lol.

StaticWave

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

If I didn’t know how to kite I would have died the first 10 seconds against 10+ enemies lol 🤣 My channel has 20+ vids of 1vX content over the years. I’m pretty sure I know what I’m doing 🤣

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

Why play Sorc at that point lol.

Is there a competitive reason to play StamSorc over MagSorc? Let's see.

StamSorc is hard to build and pilot, but can rival DK in pressure damage, with constant burst threat on top of that. They don't need ult to kill, and are fast even when not Streaking. Not arguing that StamSorc is "better" but Wardens and Blades don't deliver builds that are strong in all those particular areas at once the way a StamSorc does. Is this enough?

MincMincMinc

StaticWave wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like, I'm a 1vX stamsorc main and my experience everyday using Streak is vastly different from what people claim it to be on the forums. It's almost like we aren't even playing the same game. Literally just yesterday me and @MincMincMinc were being zerged by 15 people who had chains, gap closers, built max speed, and it was borderline impossible to escape from them even with Streak.

If Streak is that powerful then why am I unable to escape from the people using those counters? It almost makes me think that the people opposing Streak are the same people being killed by magsorc 1vXers and are now complaining about Streak on the forums. It makes the most sense the more you think about it because from a 1vXer stand point, Streak is not a reliable form of escape at all.

Maybe this was because it should be borderline impossible to escape from 15 people with chains, gap closers and max speed?
What is a sufficiently reliable form of escape in your eyes? Leftover shade behind a rock + Cloak + minor/major Expedition, ideally with snare removal? Is that the baseline? There is still 1 slot free on that bar if you slot all those, so streak should at the very least perform better than that, right? And the "gap-closer/stun/direct damage" -part isn't always super useful when you are fleeing a zerg, so counting those would be unfair anyway. And if that isn't convincing we can just flip the argument around and explain why streak isn't really a great engage tool.
That is why Sorc really needed a toolkit expansion to compensate all pre-designed weakpoints that were meant to balance out this ability. This is why everyone is so fond of the class.

Realistically - now without the sarcasm - I like when classes get new tools that open up different playstyles. But powercreep is powercreep. Is it really so surprising that people do not enjoy playing against this class? Maybe in the past couple of years a few people thought: "Damn, this ability is annoying, but alas, these poor buggers don't have so many options right now". And honestly, I dislike if classes are just balanced around 1-2 abilities or if a class is just flat out too weak. But now what? The ability is still annyoingly over-effective, Sorc's main weakpoints have been eliminated and everyone else has had to deal with this for months already.
You can go ahead and say "But warden....", you can ask for our certified 1vXer-IDs or post some build editor screenshots about how easy someone else can hit 7k WD - but at the end of the day ask yourself:

1) How many people have been convinced that Sorc is fine because "Noob Sorcs can easily be killed"
2) How many people will just be rolling their eyes whenever the next "Sorc main®" is styling hard on them in an otherworldly display of skill and reflexes

I don't even think it would take severe nerfs to handle the situation. With some smart changes a bit of the power could just be shifted to other places in the toolkit. And that goes for adjustments from the streak side or from the self-heal side.

People who are bringing these things up are not always salty losers and these types of debates have the potential to move much quicker to a constructive format, if everyone is willing to go there.

I will show you a clip of my kiting vs 10 DCs earlier today:

https://youtu.be/gFiIp7WfsAc

In the clip, even after Streaking twice a row from 0:29 to 0:30, I am already caught up by a NB using Critical Rush and 2 other players moving at near max speed at 0:33. For the entirety of the video, I was constantly being chased around. Not a moment did I have any breathing room to go on the offense. If the argument is Streak is some overpowered escape ability, then why couldn't I escape? Why couldn't I leave those players in the dust after Streaking twice a row?

The problem I have with people complaining about Streak is that they conveniently leave out the other half of the coin. Yes, a Sorc using Streak and Hardened Ward is incredibly difficult to eliminate, but a Sorc using Streak without Hardened Ward is incredibly easy to eliminate. They're asking for Streak to be nerfed and conveniently ignoring the movement speed power creep that's allowing everyone to move so fast. If you want to nerf Streak, then nerf movement speed as well because Streak is the only thing separating Sorc from being another generic class. I wouldn't even play Sorc if I didn't have Streak. I would simply just play Warden or NB. They're much better classes and have much better bar space efficiency AND healing. I'm pretty sure @Turtle_Bot and @MincMincMinc can agree with this.

So let me get this straight.

You streak away from them, stop, then turn around and streak back towards them, meaning they are right next to you, and the problem is streak isn't overpowered enough?

At 0:31 if you streak again you are safe and they will never be able to catch you, but instead you hide, then go back towards them.

Why would you ever expose yourself like this?
You don't know how to kite, this is a skill issue.

If I didn’t know how to kite I would have died the first 10 seconds against 10+ enemies lol 🤣 My channel has 20+ vids of 1vX content over the years. I’m pretty sure I know what I’m doing 🤣

Yeah I've seen this guy meathead his way towards 15+man zergs open field hundreds of times and walk out with kills or wipes more than once.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why play Sorc at that point lol.

Is there a competitive reason to play StamSorc over MagSorc? Let's see.

StamSorc is hard to build and pilot, but can rival DK in pressure damage, with constant burst threat on top of that. They don't need ult to kill, and are fast even when not Streaking. Not arguing that StamSorc is "better" but Wardens and Blades don't deliver builds that are strong in all those particular areas at once the way a StamSorc does. Is this enough?

I never compared StamSorc and MagSorc though. I said if Streak was nerfed, there would be no reason to play Sorc over other classes.

Your argument about StamSorc’s strength supports my point. The entire reason why StamSorc still gets picked in competitive BG games and sometimes GvGs is because Streak allows it to be a super mobile DPS or a CC bot. You can either slap several proc sets on it, Streak through a group, get a quick kill and disrupt the other team, then Streak out, or use Bombard with Streak and Negate to create a kill zone for your team.

All of this is enabled by Streak. Without Streak, why would anyone pick StamSorc over Warden or NB? Warden has better AoE heals and delayed AoE burst damage, while NB provides AoE Expedition, an AoE heal, AoE Minor Cowardice, a strong AoE ult with a decent group synergy, and a strong single target burst to quickly kill someone. To top it off, both Warden and NB can run the same procs StamSorc runs lol.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

Your argument about StamSorc’s strength supports my point.

My point was that you could nerf (not delete) Streak, and StamSorc would still have the same merits, minus the cheese of crutching on Streak spam any time one makes a mistake. Whether that's the Vengeance mod where it only stuns at the end, or a cooldown like the Arc portal, or a big cost increase like Cloak... StamSorcs will remain a priority target on the field for me because of their massive damage potential, both pressure and burst.

YandereGirlfriend

Don't touch Blighted Blastbones. Only possible change would be to make it un-CC'able to bring it closer to par with Warden Shalks.

MincMincMinc

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Your argument about StamSorc’s strength supports my point.

My point was that you could nerf (not delete) Streak, and StamSorc would still have the same merits, minus the cheese of crutching on Streak spam any time one makes a mistake. Whether that's the Vengeance mod where it only stuns at the end, or a cooldown like the Arc portal, or a big cost increase like Cloak... StamSorcs will remain a priority target on the field for me because of their massive damage potential, both pressure and burst.

100% if streak is not slotted, there is no reason to play stamsorc. Every skill and passive on warden is superior, its just soulless and boring to play. Kinda sad zos has been pushing every class to the same playstyle.

If you played Vengeance at best I would say that streak without a cooldown would be sufficient. Really I dont think streak should have damage nor does it need it. Remove the damage and make the cc only within 5m of the final destination. Increasing the cost ramp would be fine, however if zos is doing more standardization and stat rebalancing this may have to be tweaked again.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Your argument about StamSorc’s strength supports my point.

My point was that you could nerf (not delete) Streak, and StamSorc would still have the same merits, minus the cheese of crutching on Streak spam any time one makes a mistake. Whether that's the Vengeance mod where it only stuns at the end, or a cooldown like the Arc portal, or a big cost increase like Cloak... StamSorcs will remain a priority target on the field for me because of their massive damage potential, both pressure and burst.

Nerfing Streak would severely reduce StamSorc's effectiveness in the role it was designed to do. Like I said, the main reason any competitive PvPer picks StamSorc is due to Streak's capability to act as an enabler. If it only stuns at the end, then you basically have to position yourself such that Streak lands you directly on top of your target. This removes the disrupting aspect of StamSorc because you can no longer Streak through a team to stun them and force them to turn around and deal with you. It also turn Streak into a "skill shot" like Jabs, but with a ramping cost instead. At that point, I would rather just spam Bombard from range and AoE root the other team. I don't have to worry about a ramping cost, and I get to stay at range where I'm much safer.

As a melee player though, if Streak gets nerfed I would just play Warden or NB. A Warden can sprint to someone and cast Turn Evil or Contingency with class script and achieve the same effect, while also being tankier and having a better kit for AoE damage. A NB can slot Mass Hysteria and Powered Extraction, which not only reduce my targets' weapon/spell damage by 750, but also AoE fear them and achieve the same effect, while also being tankier and more mobile than StamSorc due to having better heals + AoE damage reduction effects + Major and Minor Expedition.

I can't see any reason for anybody competitive to play StamSorc if Streak gets nerfed. I've played through several patches of StamSorc being meta and all those builds were possible because of Streak functioning as it is. Without it, nobody would pick the class.

Turtle_Bot

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Your argument about StamSorc’s strength supports my point.

My point was that you could nerf (not delete) Streak, and StamSorc would still have the same merits, minus the cheese of crutching on Streak spam any time one makes a mistake. Whether that's the Vengeance mod where it only stuns at the end, or a cooldown like the Arc portal, or a big cost increase like Cloak... StamSorcs will remain a priority target on the field for me because of their massive damage potential, both pressure and burst.

100% if streak is not slotted, there is no reason to play stamsorc. Every skill and passive on warden is superior, its just soulless and boring to play. Kinda sad zos has been pushing every class to the same playstyle.

If you played Vengeance at best I would say that streak without a cooldown would be sufficient. Really I dont think streak should have damage nor does it need it. Remove the damage and make the cc only within 5m of the final destination. Increasing the cost ramp would be fine, however if zos is doing more standardization and stat rebalancing this may have to be tweaked again.

It's the same for wardless magsorc. Removing or heavily nerfing streak would only serve to ensure that every single sorc in PvP becomes a ward sorc with RaT. Which is basically just a duelists polar warden due to minimal group support/AoE. Given the complaints about ward since its buff, I highly doubt such a change that would force even more dependence on ward would be something the player base at large would be happy with.

As for the damage on streak, it was tacked on long ago and my guess is, it was a change made for PvE-sorc as an attempt to give sorc some cleave that the class severely lacks in PvE that failed in that goal because it's not a spammable AoE damage ability, it's a utility/mobility skill with a ramping cost.

Not really sure what to change with streak, without making it not worth running over RaT due to how overloaded RaT is.

- Removing the damage is probably the best option, if anything needed to be done at all.
- Removing/changing the stun simply makes RaT the objectively better option to slot, combining it with rune prison as a pseudo RaT + fossilize combo that's delayed and lacks the bonus immobilize
- Increasing the ramping cost just makes it too costly when RaT + sprint is so insanely cheap (streak used to have nearly twice the ramping cost it currently has (50% per cast iirc) and was basically not used due to being so overly expensive to run it, it wasn't worth using, even before we had RaT, hence why it got reduced to its current 33% ramping cost).
- Reducing the teleport distance just makes it not worth running at all since current normal unbuffed running speed easily catches up at a distance any shorter than the current 15m and sprint speed still catches the 15m distance as proven many times already.

The one thing that stops me from putting forward changes to streak anymore is when I originally put together a massive thread about a big sorc rework/update (back in U36/37) and proposed a huge nerf to streak (change stun to a snare) 3 years ago, to then give sorc a burst heal (like HtD, not even anything as strong as what we got with ward), was that even such a huge nerf (effective deletion of streak) was still not enough for the vocal minority who over-complain about streak.

Since then, I have just been of the opinion that streak should just remain as is. Nerfing it in any real capacity without huge adjustments to countless other things across the entire game, will never make anyone happy, since such a nerf just kills non-ward sorcs (including stamsorcs), driving even more sorcs into using ward, and would never be enough of a nerf for those who just want to complain about streak until it's gone from the game anyway.

No point drastically changing streak at all, if doing so is just going to make/keep everyone miserable, especially when something simple like my above proposed change to bound armor/morphs will actually have real tangible impact on addressing the current issues surrounding sorc (ward) while at the same time making significantly many more players happy than a huge nerf to streak would.