How Popular Will the "Vengeance" Cyrodiil Instance be?

Muizer · January 14

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

If the older campaigns are still an option once the new campaign is out of the testing phase and has gone live .....

That's not how it is going to play out. The test is not one along the lines of: "here is our new campaign, let's test to see if we can make it permanent".

The new campaign will be on PTS purely to test functionality.

Then it will go 'live' as the only campaign for one week.

The aim of that test is to check performance with a limited rule set and high population.

Based on the outcome (their data, our feedback) the rule set will be developed further.

Skoomah · January 14

If this water downed version of PvP bleeds into other game modes like Imperial City and Battlegrounds, most of the PVP’ers I know are prepared to quit. Ball groups are going to be even worse. It’ll just be a massive Zerg spamming the exact same 5-7 skills. No skill in terms of out theorycrafting your opponents in terms of gear selection, skill selection, playstyle composition, etc.

If this goes through, it’ll be an ultimate slap in the face to any investment anyone has put into the game to learn it and enjoy its combat depth and complexity.

xylena_lazarow · January 14

Skoomah wrote: »

Ball groups are going to be even worse. It’ll just be a massive Zerg spamming the exact same 5-7 skills.

The question is what the fight will look like when the massive zerg meets a ball group. If they somehow end up fixing the ball meta, that alone will salvage the mode for a lot of players, but I'm not optimistic.

Skoomah · January 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Ball groups are going to be even worse. It’ll just be a massive Zerg spamming the exact same 5-7 skills.

The question is what the fight will look like when the massive zerg meets a ball group. If they somehow end up fixing the ball meta, that alone will salvage the mode for a lot of players, but I'm not optimistic.

No difference, everyone is using the same limited number of skills. The difference will be marginal. Maybe the Zerg will have some autonomy to run whatever they want instead of adhering to some template some ball groups leader has planned for them.

Tinkerhorn · January 14

Looking at how bare the PTS is considering some of the glaring issues within the game I have to be of the assumption that they're mostly going all in on it PvP balance wise. I'm inclined to believe in the long run that Vengeance is what we're getting whether we like it or not. Shame no further details have really been mentioned about as of yet.

TechMaybeHic · January 14

It will be interesting without gear selection, and; what heals will be allowed. Maybe heals become self only versions to where ball groups are just coordinated on action and not really benefit from sets and skills.

Problem is still the same as the no proc campaign. Where donyou draw the line? To restricted and people won't play beyond a test. To loose; then what's the point?

peacenote · January 14

Skoomah wrote: »

If this water downed version of PvP bleeds into other game modes like Imperial City and Battlegrounds, most of the PVP’ers I know are prepared to quit. Ball groups are going to be even worse. It’ll just be a massive Zerg spamming the exact same 5-7 skills. No skill in terms of out theorycrafting your opponents in terms of gear selection, skill selection, playstyle composition, etc.

If this goes through, it’ll be an ultimate slap in the face to any investment anyone has put into the game to learn it and enjoy its combat depth and complexity.

I know something needs to be done about PvP performance, but this is my concern... that it will be boring. Part of what makes things fresh for me in ESO is trying new classes and builds and, as a result, having a variety of skills and playstyles. Scribing is getting use in PvP builds and this is... the polar opposite of that. It would be a huge disappointment if the test, as described, "went live."

My understanding, though, is that it is just a test to try to get to root cause... not necessarily the vision for PvP in the future. Am I wrong? I haven't seen all of the content released by ZOS about the plan. The impression I'm getting is that there is some fear/concern/assumptions kicking around that this is the way things will go, because of how we've seen ZOS operate historically, but no actual reason to think that this is how PvP will be going forward in Cyrodiil after the test is over.

xylena_lazarow · January 14

Skoomah wrote: »

No difference

So you think it will still stalemate and result in the ball running in circles for 40 minutes?

If it ends up the ball group auto loses to larger numbers, I think I'm fine with that. It means the way to win Cyro sieges outnumbered will be with siege engines and tactics, not a spreadsheet comp and stacked effects.

MincMincMinc · January 14

Skoomah wrote: »

If this water downed version of PvP bleeds into other game modes like Imperial City and Battlegrounds, most of the PVP’ers I know are prepared to quit. Ball groups are going to be even worse. It’ll just be a massive Zerg spamming the exact same 5-7 skills. No skill in terms of out theorycrafting your opponents in terms of gear selection, skill selection, playstyle composition, etc.

If this goes through, it’ll be an ultimate slap in the face to any investment anyone has put into the game to learn it and enjoy its combat depth and complexity.

I think this is the wrong way to look at a future change like this. It will always be unpopular because that is how power creep discussions go. Nobody wants to be weaker even though we all know the game has slowly become nonsense.

The best way to look at this would be zos starts to clean up and clarify skills so they have a true purpose. Hopefully it would peel over to proc set design where we might be able to cut down on the sets that have an aoe stacking effect, that debuffs the enemy, and applies a dot, which can explode, dealing an effect based on the number of freckles each enemy has, which then does an aoe pull, which then does the undaunted pledges for you, and can do the daily writs based on a % chance which scales off your crit.......... IDK this type of design isnt unique or "smart" compared to what you say is a "dumbed down" version of the game.

If a car has 3 steering wheels is it a smarter design than a car with one? Or is a car that is 3x the weight a smarter design, I wouldn't say so. Arguably pvp was way more populated and in an enjoyable state in the early years when skills were simple with a morph bonus. The skill system was only supposed to ever be " this is a direct damage skill + a morph debuff or a stun"

xylena_lazarow · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Arguably pvp was way more populated and in an enjoyable state in the early years when skills were simple with a morph bonus. The skill system was only supposed to ever be " this is a direct damage skill + a morph debuff or a stun"

Remember Blinding Flashes and Haste? Disorients? I used to stagger lock enemies using the AoE Disorient effect on DK Eruption. I doubt those players ever had any idea what I was doing to them.

Ground Oils? How does that make sense? This game has always been obtuse. Vengeance is completely new ground for them, I can't blame them for trying something with a dying Cyro, but this is a big departure.

MincMincMinc · January 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Arguably pvp was way more populated and in an enjoyable state in the early years when skills were simple with a morph bonus. The skill system was only supposed to ever be " this is a direct damage skill + a morph debuff or a stun"

Remember Blinding Flashes and Haste? Disorients? I used to stagger lock enemies using the AoE Disorient effect on DK Eruption. I doubt those players ever had any idea what I was doing to them.

Ground Oils? How does that make sense? This game has always been obtuse. Vengeance is completely new ground for them, I can't blame them for trying something with a dying Cyro, but this is a big departure.

Yeah most people never understood why the cyro guards had a cc that spammed their character. They were being disoriented and then hit which broke the disorient and didnt give immunity...... so they were disoriented again by the guards. Took them long enough to get rid of it, only to replace it with offbalance. An equally complicated mechanic that is mostly invisible and hidden from players to learn wtf is happening. >> insert dizzy swing over complicated example.

In a game subjected to so much blatant power creep and convolution I can't fault them for attempting to fix it.

It is possible to make a game more concise and fun at the same time. I just can't understand why people have this notion that we need 50x things happening with every build choice. Might as well have subway surfer or minecraft parkour playing at the bottom of the screen to keep these people happy.

Joy_Division · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

If this water downed version of PvP bleeds into other game modes like Imperial City and Battlegrounds, most of the PVP’ers I know are prepared to quit. Ball groups are going to be even worse. It’ll just be a massive Zerg spamming the exact same 5-7 skills. No skill in terms of out theorycrafting your opponents in terms of gear selection, skill selection, playstyle composition, etc.

If this goes through, it’ll be an ultimate slap in the face to any investment anyone has put into the game to learn it and enjoy its combat depth and complexity.

I think this is the wrong way to look at a future change like this. It will always be unpopular because that is how power creep discussions go. Nobody wants to be weaker even though we all know the game has slowly become nonsense.

The best way to look at this would be zos starts to clean up and clarify skills so they have a true purpose. Hopefully it would peel over to proc set design where we might be able to cut down on the sets that have an aoe stacking effect, that debuffs the enemy, and applies a dot, which can explode, dealing an effect based on the number of freckles each enemy has, which then does an aoe pull, which then does the undaunted pledges for you, and can do the daily writs based on a % chance which scales off your crit.......... IDK this type of design isnt unique or "smart" compared to what you say is a "dumbed down" version of the game.

If a car has 3 steering wheels is it a smarter design than a car with one? Or is a car that is 3x the weight a smarter design, I wouldn't say so. Arguably pvp was way more populated and in an enjoyable state in the early years when skills were simple with a morph bonus. The skill system was only supposed to ever be " this is a direct damage skill + a morph debuff or a stun"

It is dumbed-down. Yeah, I'm going to go out there is a build ZOS provides me that's the same as everyone else's.

I'm not sure when you started playing, but the skill system was originally not what you describe. Skills were far more complicated - one might say thought provoking - in beta and at launch: NB Haste, DK original Inferno, Templar Blinding Flashes, Sorc Overload third bar, etc. The skills got oversimplified first because ZOS only knows how to nerf when balancing and then the homogenization they put in the game that was sold as "standardization."

ESO PvP was more fun because it still seemed fresh, still seemed as if the devs cared, still a variety of decent builds that could kill decent players, and there were so many players each night offered all sorts of different fights against different opponents rather than a dead map dominated by ball groups and tower humpers, both of whom abuse the terrible balance decisions ZOS has made that have overwhelmingly favored defense and healing.

Vengeance is not about returning PvP to what it was. It's about how ZOS can solve its ten years of bad decisions by just giving us Templates so it now longer has to worry about balancing or how other things added into the game (gear, CP, etc) will be abused by theorycrafters and experts. It's the ideal way to put Cyrodiil in maintenance mode.

Whether or not it will work will depend on whether or not organized groups can still abuse ESO's mechanics. If ZOS still allows twelve HoTs to stack, if Blessing of Restoration is still basically the same, if rapid maneuvers and purge are included on those templates, then I doubt things will change. I think most players would go for a dumbed-down Cyrodiil simply because ZOS has allowed organized groups to become so oppressive, any alternative would be preferable. I suspect Cyrodiil will just big blobs of zergs fighting each other because there still isn't to actually do aside from take keeps and 1vXing on a ZOS premade template sounds like a non-starter to me. I'm not sure how sustainable that sort of PvP would be though

MincMincMinc · January 14

Joy_Division wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

If this water downed version of PvP bleeds into other game modes like Imperial City and Battlegrounds, most of the PVP’ers I know are prepared to quit. Ball groups are going to be even worse. It’ll just be a massive Zerg spamming the exact same 5-7 skills. No skill in terms of out theorycrafting your opponents in terms of gear selection, skill selection, playstyle composition, etc.

If this goes through, it’ll be an ultimate slap in the face to any investment anyone has put into the game to learn it and enjoy its combat depth and complexity.

I think this is the wrong way to look at a future change like this. It will always be unpopular because that is how power creep discussions go. Nobody wants to be weaker even though we all know the game has slowly become nonsense.

The best way to look at this would be zos starts to clean up and clarify skills so they have a true purpose. Hopefully it would peel over to proc set design where we might be able to cut down on the sets that have an aoe stacking effect, that debuffs the enemy, and applies a dot, which can explode, dealing an effect based on the number of freckles each enemy has, which then does an aoe pull, which then does the undaunted pledges for you, and can do the daily writs based on a % chance which scales off your crit.......... IDK this type of design isnt unique or "smart" compared to what you say is a "dumbed down" version of the game.

If a car has 3 steering wheels is it a smarter design than a car with one? Or is a car that is 3x the weight a smarter design, I wouldn't say so. Arguably pvp was way more populated and in an enjoyable state in the early years when skills were simple with a morph bonus. The skill system was only supposed to ever be " this is a direct damage skill + a morph debuff or a stun"

It is dumbed-down. Yeah, I'm going to go out there is a build ZOS provides me that's the same as everyone else's.

I'm not sure when you started playing, but the skill system was originally not what you describe. Skills were far more complicated - one might say thought provoking - in beta and at launch: NB Haste, DK original Inferno, Templar Blinding Flashes, Sorc Overload third bar, etc. The skills got oversimplified first because ZOS only knows how to nerf when balancing and then the homogenization they put in the game that was sold as "standardization."

ESO PvP was more fun because it still seemed fresh, still seemed as if the devs cared, still a variety of decent builds that could kill decent players, and there were so many players each night offered all sorts of different fights against different opponents rather than a dead map dominated by ball groups and tower humpers, both of whom abuse the terrible balance decisions ZOS has made that have overwhelmingly favored defense and healing.

Vengeance is not about returning PvP to what it was. It's about how ZOS can solve its ten years of bad decisions by just giving us Templates so it now longer has to worry about balancing or how other things added into the game (gear, CP, etc) will be abused by theorycrafters and experts. It's the ideal way to put Cyrodiil in maintenance mode.

Whether or not it will work will depend on whether or not organized groups can still abuse ESO's mechanics. If ZOS still allows twelve HoTs to stack, if Blessing of Restoration is still basically the same, if rapid maneuvers and purge are included on those templates, then I doubt things will change. I think most players would go for a dumbed-down Cyrodiil simply because ZOS has allowed organized groups to become so oppressive, any alternative would be preferable. I suspect Cyrodiil will just big blobs of zergs fighting each other because there still isn't to actually do aside from take keeps and 1vXing on a ZOS premade template sounds like a non-starter to me. I'm not sure how sustainable that sort of PvP would be though

I played since beta all classes(except arc) doing all mag/stam/health variants. Mainly pvp stamsorc, stamden, or magblade. I just dont remember combat being as much of a cluster f**k animation wise and effect wise. Even without having 10 years experience when I started, I never felt like I couldn't tell what was happening at a given moment. Now a days I just have enough mit and heals where I am comfortable assuming I wont die to the 30 procs and effects happening from the 2-3 people I am fighting.

I understand the fear of template pvp, but i think it is wildly unreasonable to think what they are doing for the vengeance test to be the final implementation. In the end you would still be able to choose race, mundus, skills, sets, traits, etc.... (granted it would be better if they balanced these choices to any degree)

They would end up removing the bloat on skills like crystal weapon which has like 6 different effects and also ties in to several passives. In the end it would probably be just damage without the cost return/reduction and the second damage proc and the enemy resists debuff.

Could I see them disabling CP in pvp....sure, it is already disabled in bgs which is popular with nonpvp players. Like you said the current game has overwhelmingly favored defense and healing...... I only slot mit and healing for red and blue cp 1vX.

I could only hope they disable proc damage sets like tarnished or rush, but last time people asked for proc sets to be disabled they thought players meant to disable sets like clever alch instead.

Dots/hots not stacking would be a big move for pvp. Ruleset changes like this may be possible now if pvp has their own versions of skills. Prior they had said many times that they couldnt do changes like this through battlespirit.

xylena_lazarow · January 14

Joy_Division wrote: »

Whether or not it will work will depend on whether or not organized groups can still abuse ESO's mechanics.

Yea this part. If the big zerg fights are still fun even when organized groups show up, then the mode has a shot. If it's like it is now, where organized groups make the fight miserable for everyone else, it'll fail just the same.

xylena_lazarow · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I could only hope they disable proc damage sets like tarnished or rush, but last time people asked for proc sets to be disabled they thought players meant to disable sets like clever alch instead.

That was because it was a performance test, not a balance test. Something involving server checks. The test proved that NO, proc sets do NOT affect performance. It was still bad even with all that stuff disabled.

Tinkerhorn · January 14

The main problem I have with template PvP that I think ZoS is going to encounter is why would I pick ESO over any of the other great PvP orientated games and I'm certain I'm not alone in that thought.
Theory crafting is a huge part of this game and what a lot of the enjoyment is derived from. It also provides an aim to achieve. I am not saying cheese shouldn't be balanced, it absolutely should be.
Also once again it is back to the drawing board to figure out a worthwhile setup and relearn to play that. Not only is this a repitition of the previous uncountable times this has frustratingly happened where fun to play builds have been wiped, it is looking like it may be the most egregious time it has happened yet. I don't want to be a doomer, but I think this is going to potentially finish the PvP in this game if it comes to full fruition.
This also doesn't cover all the concerns regarding Vengeance and what it may mean for PvP. I just the ZoS are barking up the wrong tree on this one.

MincMincMinc · January 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I could only hope they disable proc damage sets like tarnished or rush, but last time people asked for proc sets to be disabled they thought players meant to disable sets like clever alch instead.

That was because it was a performance test, not a balance test. Something involving server checks. The test proved that NO, proc sets do NOT affect performance. It was still bad even with all that stuff disabled.

Well they said the proc test did not result in a significant enough improvement for them to take action.

The current test concept is to just plainly see if they simplify the game to its core base essentials, will there be an improvement? The scary thing is that if there is still no improvement, this means zos cant take any action to fix pvp. Inevitably leading to them fully abandoning cyrodil.

Best case scenario, they find a benefit in certain calcs and find ways to keep the game as similar as possible with improvements. Maybe this only needs pvp skills with ruleset changes like no hots, dots, procs stacking on players.

Doomer's scenario, the find a huge benefit and simplify skills down to be single effects with a morph. Either you like complicated skills or not. Regardless the worry here is that proc sets will stay just as complicated and strong while skills become worth less by comparison, unless skills gain tooltip to compensate.

ajkb78 · January 14

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

A homogenized version of Cyro will not hold peoples interest for long. And it will result in one of two scenarios playing out. First, everyone will play the same class as it will be the strongest. Or second, people will just give up on ESO and play a game that has decent PvP.

I think we've kind of got a homogenized version of Cyrodiil right now. Almost everyone is too tanky and relies on proc sets for damage, and there are go-to sets that work across basically all classes: see the amount of tarnished procs for example. It's not varied where every class wears the same thing, is equivalently tanky and achieves damage in the same way.

Focusing on class skills seems like a decent way to restore some variety: bear in mind it's just an experiment, and I hope there will be more follow-up experiments to come. But I hope the end result of all this does give a situation where class identity gets restored to PVP and also where different classes have different ways of engaging with sets, so that different classes have different sets that are meta for them but perhaps not great for other classes. (It would also be great to get to a point where there is a variety of sets that are all approximately meta rather than one stand-out option too.)

I wonder if there are too many sets in the game now. There are a small number that are meta, a few craftable sets that are "best option available for new players still farming" and heaps and heaps of junk that probably nobody has ever run a serious build with. Perhaps say 75% of the sets in the game should just be deleted, or if not then at least given a thorough overhaul so that even if they remain useless in PvE they actually represent decent options for the new world of PvP we're being promised.

Dracosin369 · January 14

Its just a huge stress test to see how much the "live" calculations are effecting the servers, and to see how many base players they can fit into Cyrodil at the most base calculations to give them a baseline to start from.

AKA, we can fit 10,000 players in the zone, instead of just 300 currently, when given the most minimal calculations possible on our server structure. Wishful thinking, but maybe its only 1,000. This has nothing to do with balancing classes at all.

sarahthes · January 14

ajkb78 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

A homogenized version of Cyro will not hold peoples interest for long. And it will result in one of two scenarios playing out. First, everyone will play the same class as it will be the strongest. Or second, people will just give up on ESO and play a game that has decent PvP.

I wonder if there are too many sets in the game now. There are a small number that are meta, a few craftable sets that are "best option available for new players still farming" and heaps and heaps of junk that probably nobody has ever run a serious build with. Perhaps say 75% of the sets in the game should just be deleted, or if not then at least given a thorough overhaul so that even if they remain useless in PvE they actually represent decent options for the new world of PvP we're being promised.

There are way too many sets in the game now. I think they could improve things by having only crafted and PvP sourced sets work in cyrodiil.

I also think they should sunset a lot of the older sets so they no longer drop in older content (have a vendor for people who need that 100% sticker book completion, but make it all bound).

Soraka · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

it would peel over to proc set design where we might be able to cut down on the sets that have an aoe stacking effect, that debuffs the enemy, and applies a dot, which can explode, dealing an effect based on the number of freckles each enemy has, which then does an aoe pull, which then does the undaunted pledges for you, and can do the daily writs based on a % chance which scales off your crit..........

That's cracking me up 😂 I just wanted to comment to appreciate that.

I don't have much more to add about my concerns because it seems like as usual, we don't even really know what they're planning with this. Like someone else said. I wish they wouldn't drip feed us info and make us wait months, possibly stressing over nothing. I am worried but maybe I'm off base in my concerns. Most people in pvp don't even know this is happening, or don't even understand the basics (like arguing that regular campaigns won't be disabled and they won't have to do vengeance during test week) so conversation on that front doesn't go anywhere either.

MincMincMinc · January 14

Soraka wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

it would peel over to proc set design where we might be able to cut down on the sets that have an aoe stacking effect, that debuffs the enemy, and applies a dot, which can explode, dealing an effect based on the number of freckles each enemy has, which then does an aoe pull, which then does the undaunted pledges for you, and can do the daily writs based on a % chance which scales off your crit..........

That's cracking me up 😂 I just wanted to comment to appreciate that.

I don't have much more to add about my concerns because it seems like as usual, we don't even really know what they're planning with this. Like someone else said. I wish they wouldn't drip feed us info and make us wait months, possibly stressing over nothing. I am worried but maybe I'm off base in my concerns. Most people in pvp don't even know this is happening, or don't even understand the basics (like arguing that regular campaigns won't be disabled and they won't have to do vengeance during test week) so conversation on that front doesn't go anywhere either.

Thanks lol,

Yeah i dont understand what zos's PR plan is. At a certain point where you are in the hole, the mysterious development curtains need to be lifted. Its not 2014 COD releases where you need to build up hype train.

redlink1979 · January 15

I will participate in the test once U45 goes live. Being all about skill seems promissing.
Double AP will be the bonus.

Serophous · January 15

sarahthes wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

A homogenized version of Cyro will not hold peoples interest for long. And it will result in one of two scenarios playing out. First, everyone will play the same class as it will be the strongest. Or second, people will just give up on ESO and play a game that has decent PvP.

I wonder if there are too many sets in the game now. There are a small number that are meta, a few craftable sets that are "best option available for new players still farming" and heaps and heaps of junk that probably nobody has ever run a serious build with. Perhaps say 75% of the sets in the game should just be deleted, or if not then at least given a thorough overhaul so that even if they remain useless in PvE they actually represent decent options for the new world of PvP we're being promised.

There are way too many sets in the game now. I think they could improve things by having only crafted and PvP sourced sets work in cyrodiil.

I also think they should sunset a lot of the older sets so they no longer drop in older content (have a vendor for people who need that 100% sticker book completion, but make it all bound).

GL with that. You'll immediately get people complaining how ZoS is killing theorycrafting again and ruining the game's pvp.

Unless they make the servers run perfectly smooth at intense PvP conflicts, any changes they make to try and improve performance via removing something is going to be met with a hostile response. There is no winning this.

(I'm actually all for going with limited sets and skills if it means I can actually attack someone and actually see it happening)

MincMincMinc · January 15

Serophous wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

A homogenized version of Cyro will not hold peoples interest for long. And it will result in one of two scenarios playing out. First, everyone will play the same class as it will be the strongest. Or second, people will just give up on ESO and play a game that has decent PvP.

I wonder if there are too many sets in the game now. There are a small number that are meta, a few craftable sets that are "best option available for new players still farming" and heaps and heaps of junk that probably nobody has ever run a serious build with. Perhaps say 75% of the sets in the game should just be deleted, or if not then at least given a thorough overhaul so that even if they remain useless in PvE they actually represent decent options for the new world of PvP we're being promised.

There are way too many sets in the game now. I think they could improve things by having only crafted and PvP sourced sets work in cyrodiil.

I also think they should sunset a lot of the older sets so they no longer drop in older content (have a vendor for people who need that 100% sticker book completion, but make it all bound).

GL with that. You'll immediately get people complaining how ZoS is killing theorycrafting again and ruining the game's pvp.

Unless they make the servers run perfectly smooth at intense PvP conflicts, any changes they make to try and improve performance via removing something is going to be met with a hostile response. There is no winning this.

(I'm actually all for going with limited sets and skills if it means I can actually attack someone and actually see it happening)

WIth power creep in general we are getting rid of old sets.

Hundings? 300wd
Seducers? 10% mag cost
Seventh legion? 350wd...... lol not even counting health regen
Fury? 480wd after 10s+ of being killed
Ravaging? 584 after wasting 5s trying to proc on enemies

Even proc sets:
Sloads?
Viper?
Red mountain?
Azure?

At any given time there is maybe 10 or so sets people use in pvp. Now we just have ball/comp groups stacking sets like rallying that have 2x hundings on them (600wd for group) If we had any design standards, we probably could have kept sets like old fury and 7th and kept the niche that was sets that leveled the playingfield when outnumbered.

"When you take critical damage your WD is increased by 30 for 6s up to 25 times" == 750wd after 5s or so of being pressured

"When you take damage you have a 10% chance to gain 494wd for 5s and heal for 1400HP"

Tannus15 · January 16

I would give a lot to get the sorc overload bar back.

SeaGtGruff · January 16

Muizer wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

If the older campaigns are still an option once the new campaign is out of the testing phase and has gone live .....

That's not how it is going to play out. The test is not one along the lines of: "here is our new campaign, let's test to see if we can make it permanent".

The new campaign will be on PTS purely to test functionality.

Then it will go 'live' as the only campaign for one week.

The aim of that test is to check performance with a limited rule set and high population.

Based on the outcome (their data, our feedback) the rule set will be developed further.

When I said "out of the testing phase," I meant the one-week live test and any future live tests, not the PTS. I'm talking about some point in the future when the results of their testing have been developed into a final version. We don't know yet whether that will be the only campaign, or whether some of the current campaigns will continue to be available for players who prefer to play under those rule sets.

SeaGtGruff · January 16

peacenote wrote: »

My understanding, though, is that it is just a test to try to get to root cause... not necessarily the vision for PvP in the future. Am I wrong? I haven't seen all of the content released by ZOS about the plan. The impression I'm getting is that there is some fear/concern/assumptions kicking around that this is the way things will go, because of how we've seen ZOS operate historically, but no actual reason to think that this is how PvP will be going forward in Cyrodiil after the test is over.

That's my understanding, as well-- that this is just testing out one idea (basically, an ultra-simplified calculation load for the PvP servers), and not the final shape of PvP in Cyrodiil. I'm pretty sure Gina even said something to that effect in the preview, but I'd have to watch the preview again carefully. It was when she was just starting to talk with Brian, or shortly before. This is part of ZOS trying out different ideas, and not the final version of anything.

MJallday · January 16

get rid of x-healing and group buffs in cyro = gets rid of ball groups = gets rid of silly server calculations which break the server.

theres 75% of your problems gone straight away

IMO

moo_2021 · January 19

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Big pros for me:
- There will be no proc sets at all, so no annoying pull/push sets & burst dmg sets.
- Limited skills (class only), so no Scribing, no Vamp, no Resto or Destro staff dominance.

So, everything fun would be gone. Might as well make a boxing match instead.

NO for me.

I don't get why it'd be more skill focused - aren't skills tied to specific builds and sets?