Battlegrounds: Cycle of Self-Destruction

Haki_7 · December 17

Solantris wrote: »

The world will never be the same when Haki leaves us, and neither will my heart. But the way things are, I don't blame him.

people see sorc jumping in the background spamming endless fury
and assume I'm there to try and steal all the kills
but we both know the truth, don't we?
from the start
it was really you
that I have come to steal

fizzylu · December 17

@Thumbless_Bot
Ah okay, haha.

gariondavey · December 18

Solantris wrote: »

I came back from a year hiatus after hearing about the BG changes and my head hurts. I don't have the solution but I can't deny there's an unsustainable problem.

20-60 minute queues for a lopsided experience is honestly just horrible for everyone involved, whether you're the slamm-ee or the slam-er. Duoing with my friend and dropping 70, 50, 40, 30 kill games is boring and uncompetitive. I know some will disagree, but I am personally not a fan of shooting fish in a barrel nor being the fish in a barrel. ESO's combat is its fun point for me, where is the combat in any of this? Said friend and I group queued for over 3 hours on the weekend, only for it to pop when I went to the bathroom. These days we have to que solo and just hope we share a game if we want to play together at all, and when the queue finally pops, we're ruining pvp for other people and our own experience is...lacking, to say the least.

We met some brand new transfer players from WOW in the queue last weekend. They were awesome people, reached out to us, didn't mind that we clapped some cheeks. We were able to pass on some mechanical information and generally had a good time teaching them things. But I can't help but wonder, why the hell are players like us being pitched against players who frankly don't stand a chance? We have over a decade of ESO experience between us. I don't mean to be an elitist ***, but the complete and utter, inherent, mechanical, undeniable unsustainability in this has to be pointed out. They're nice people and I'm glad we met, I'm glad they are the kind of players to recognize an experience differential and ask us, and we are the kind of players to take that kindly and happily share our knowledge. But how many times is this exact scenario playing out with nothing but negativity felt on all sides?

Why did we meet them? Why are they expected to fight us? Why are we expected to fight them?

The below are from the past week or so, and they're just the ones I randomly thought to screengrab. Frankly, games like this should be outliers. Matchmaking should stop this, but it doesn't. Why?

From Shrimpoh: "The balancing of things is done in a way that makes it hard to appreciate the reason we PvP in the first place. It’s all well and good fighting and getting a bunch of kills but when the experience is either diminished by excessive queues (not even including broken ones) and one sided balancing, individual value in those games feels negligible."

The world will never be the same when Haki leaves us, and neither will my heart. But the way things are, I don't blame him.

Edit to add, no Garion. I'm not getting better scoreboard. I know you're here somewhere. I know you want to say it. I'm not doing it. It's been 4 years.

SOLANTRISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Haki_7 · December 18

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 4: Waiting 23 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4GT60qzKbI

Solantris · December 18

Haki_7 wrote: »

Solantris wrote: »

The world will never be the same when Haki leaves us, and neither will my heart. But the way things are, I don't blame him.

people see sorc jumping in the background spamming endless fury
and assume I'm there to try and steal all the kills
but we both know the truth, don't we?
that
it was really you
that I have come to steal

When these halls are finally empty of light and laughter
Your voice will still linger in the quiet corners of my mind.
The endless furies have forever scarred my forehead,
like a wizard we shall not name.

You’ve already stolen my heart,
You, quiet thief in the night of my soul.

Even if you do reuse your poetry.

Haki_7 · December 18

Solantris wrote: »

Even if you do reuse your poetry.

our love goes beyond poetry

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 5: Waiting another 23 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Kl6QBrDmA

licenturion · December 18

Aldoss wrote: »

This behavior is why I suspect many people want the 4v4v4 back because it increased the number of targets for these sweat lords to target. It helped a baby seal blend in and go unnoticed, but it didn't solve the problem which was baby seals getting placed against sweat lords in the first place.

I think you are overthinking this whole thing.

The players what you call 'baby seals' are usually people who want that daily XP boost (possibly with even an XP scroll activated) and just queue up without much experience, coordination or special sets and see how it goes.

The old battlegrounds had a 66 percent chance of getting your daily in one match. If there was a massive power imbalance between the teams you could actually still have fun and make it exciting by battle with the team in second place and still 'win' your reward.

The new battlegrounds have a 50 percent chance of getting your daily and you usually know after the first minute how it will end which leads to people leaving, stand in spawn or just spam some AOE in a brawling group. Just to get it over quickly and to try the spin the wheel again.

Thanks to the solo queue now it is a bit of a lottery of getting a good team. But if you mix this queue with groups the chance for solo players to get their daily will drop even below 50 percent, which will in turn make people just skip it altogether making queue times even longer.

Aldoss · December 19

licenturion wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

This behavior is why I suspect many people want the 4v4v4 back because it increased the number of targets for these sweat lords to target. It helped a baby seal blend in and go unnoticed, but it didn't solve the problem which was baby seals getting placed against sweat lords in the first place.

I think you are overthinking this whole thing.

The players what you call 'baby seals' are usually people who want that daily XP boost (possibly with even an XP scroll activated) and just queue up without much experience, coordination or special sets and see how it goes.

The old battlegrounds had a 66 percent chance of getting your daily in one match. If there was a massive power imbalance between the teams you could actually still have fun and make it exciting by battle with the team in second place and still 'win' your reward.

The new battlegrounds have a 50 percent chance of getting your daily and you usually know after the first minute how it will end which leads to people leaving, stand in spawn or just spam some AOE in a brawling group. Just to get it over quickly and to try the spin the wheel again.

Thanks to the solo queue now it is a bit of a lottery of getting a good team. But if you mix this queue with groups the chance for solo players to get their daily will drop even below 50 percent, which will in turn make people just skip it altogether making queue times even longer.

1. BG queues should never be standardized around players who want nothing to do with it, if not for the chance at some digital trinkets.

2. That's not how math works.

You're correct in saying that ZOS gave two teams the daily bonus in the 4v4v4 BGs, thus giving someone only queuing for the daily bonus a 66% chance. You're correct in saying that it's now only a 50% chance, but to then claim that by combining the 8v8 to be solo and duo it would "drop even below 50 percent" is not mathematically possible.

My suggestion is completely centered around the idea of increasing the volume of players that can be matched to give the match maker the best possible shot at matching up players of similar skill. Currently, if the match maker only has so many baby seals and questers, it must fill the lobby with the available sweat lords, and as I stated earlier, there are more sweat lords in the solo queue than there are in the group queue at any given time.

This makes the 50/50 chance drop considerably.

However, if you combine the 8v8 to become the true casual option and allow solos and duos, you increase the total volume of available baby seals and questers that can be matched together, forcing out the sweat lords from their lobbies, and evening out the playing field back to that 50% chance of getting the daily in one match.

Bad players are bad players, regardless of if they're grouped or not. Give them a better shot at getting matched with other bad players and they'll all have a much more enjoyable time trying to get their daily.

3. No one is forcing players to do the daily BG. It's been years since I've participated in a daily dungeon. PvE is awful and boring to me. Are there benefits that I'm missing out on by not doing PvE? Yes, but that's on me. If players don't like playing BGs, then why are they complaining about it in the first place?

Moonspawn · December 19

I wonder if reducing the critical healing badge points would impact @Haki_7 's queue times.

Haki_7 · December 19

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 6: Waiting 20 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swiR5hwJmZc

Solantris · December 19

In the spirit of the thing.

BG log

Q1. 18th Dec, 8 man duo queue. Spent 56 minutes waiting in Cyrodiil. Had a couple small 2vx fights, duo partner consistently freezing in place. End up fighting a man visibly doing the same. Asked him, he was also freezing. Decided eso not worth, played something else.
Q2. 19th Dec. 129m 8 man duo queue, went to cyrodiil. No smallscale population, only EP during JP primetime. Only one big group whose bash man descyncs me like crazy because 300 ping. No queue, no other pop to fight... decided ESO not worth, played something else.
Q3, later that day. Solo 8 man queue, popped after 28 minutes! Woo! Was a deathmatch with two named players* including myself. Notably, Tuudy. on my team clearly doing DK bombs, he needs room. I am sorc support, I give it to him. I negate his bombs, we throw hands. Later, I am accused of being in comms.
Q4, immediately afterwards, 17 minutes. Approximately 4 named players. Tuudy on enemy team, KDMS and Tamerlin on mine. Our collective pugs enjoyed relic hunting. I negated Tuudy's bombs. He did not get any room.
Q5, 20th dec. Solo 8 man queue, POPPED IN 2 MINUTES AND 48 SECONDs! Relic game where nobody cared about relic, my favourite! Big brawl. Up and coming pvpers on both teams, sweaty back and forth fights. Enemy dot DK man held a lot of fight presence. Probably would have run the game if I didn't exist. Teammate mans wasn't quite as large and didn't understand why I gave him star**. He went 29 and 4 in total. He now understands why I gave him the star.
Q6, 20th Dec. solo man 8 queue, 5 minute pop. sweaty relic. 4 named players enemy team, only me on friendly team. Went about as well as you'd expect. My pugs yolo into 8 man sitting on relic on repeat. I... strik where I can. I can only drag a man through hell so many times. 20k HP sorc relic running? I'll do my best

* "Named player" - BG or cyrodiil regular. Player someone I recognize as having reasonable fingies.
** Star - marks either biggest friendly player or frontline melee player. Person for me to orbit, functionally. Like crown in cyrodill but for bg

OsUfi · December 19

[deleted]

Haki_7 · December 20

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 7: Waiting 22 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LPaUlyzFCg

Haki_7 · December 20

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 8: Waiting 24 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WllWMx4WJGk

johnJrant · December 20

Not a very good offer. In competitive mode, there should not be more than 9 fighters on the map. The old BG suffered because of this. And the new 4x4s are good because there are few people in combat. In DM, I don't see any point in a third command at all. Why is it there if it's a fight to the death. If they died like that, what difference does it make from one or the other team? You're all discussing BG's problems, but it's worth paying a little attention to the players' problems. Now on BG, even with all the problems, there are no insurmountable mechanics, they are not difficult and the battles there rarely lean to one side if you play at a high mmr. So the problem is for players who are "difficult" or who see insurmountable difficulties in the players themselves. 90% of the lost or "one-way fights" occur due to the fact that the players are doing the wrong thing on BG.

Haki_7 · December 20

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 9: Waiting 26 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIjZDhYb9Gk

Haki_7 · December 21

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 10: Waiting 20 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXZ2FeHigas

Avran_Sylt · December 21

Haki_7 wrote: »

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 10: Waiting 20 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXZ2FeHigas

So, in what way are the matches lopsided? What results are you having?

I think I’ve played, and been curb stomped, by you before.

Are you saying I need to be curb stomped more often by you so you at least don’t need to wait as long?

Haki_7 · December 21

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

So, in what way are the matches lopsided? What results are you having?

I remember all kinds of situations happening when there were three teams. Now it's just one team farming the other.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I think I’ve played, and been curb stomped, by you before.

Impossible. I am a healer.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Are you saying I need to be curb stomped more often by you so you at least don’t need to wait as long?

As a healer, my contribution is being misrepresented by the Critical Heal badge. I suspect it is inflating my MMR to the point of keeping me out of matches entirely. Reducing the badge's points from the current 100 to somewhere in the 25-50 range might solve my problem. This change would also allow DPS players to compete against healers in the leaderboards.

Avran_Sylt · December 21

Haki_7 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

So, in what way are the matches lopsided? What results are you having?

I remember all kinds of situations happening when there were three teams. Now it's just one team farming the other.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I think I’ve played, and been curb stomped, by you before.

Impossible. I am a healer.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Are you saying I need to be curb stomped more often by you so you at least don’t need to wait as long?

As a healer, my contribution is being misrepresented by the Critical Heal badge. I suspect it is inflating my MMR to the point of keeping me out of matches entirely. Reducing the badge's points from the current 100 to somewhere in the 25-50 range might solve my problem. This change would also allow DPS players to compete against healers in the leaderboards.

I mean it’s still possible I got curb-stomped by you.

I’m a Bow DPS, all Divines with Crit chance and Crit %, all points into Magicka and Light Armor.

I am squish. Given the hybrid scaling of damage and heals it’s entirely possible to get killed by healers myself (unless they’re heal tanks).

I just faintly recall associating your name to an unkillable blob of opponents that would rush me down/be able to hold strong in our spawn.

How often do you die?

I’m frequently top of the leaderboard since I can moonlight as a healer with Malevolent Offering myself, but I still get killed a bit. I’ve been having fairly short queue times.

Haki_7 · December 21

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 11: Waiting 23 minutes for a lopsided match

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vd0M67d-Pw

Thumbless_Bot · December 21

I logged in to my plar today for the first time in about two weeks. Not sure how this has impacted my mmr because zos, but I've been in about 3 4v4 and two 8v8 trying to get filled up on wins so I can cash in tomorrow (because you only get one token per day). The 4v4s have timed out two times and the three that did start took almost the entire five minutes to start. In other words, queues are still broken at lower mmr, I think. Might not have been two weeks, but it's been a while.

Pepegrillos · December 21

You know there is an absolute mess when Haki has to leave the bgs and come into the forums to show the evidence. Someone call Wheeler...

gariondavey · December 22

Pepegrillos wrote: »

You know there is an absolute mess when Haki has to leave the bgs and come into the forums to show the evidence. Someone call Wheeler...

To be fair look how long the queues are. Plenty of time to come on the forums to shed light on this fiasco

Haki_7 · December 22

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 12: Waiting 24 minutes for a lopsided match

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phhoNPXNEpk

Haki_7 · December 22

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 13: Waiting 22 minutes for a lopsided match

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOmX3NzKvjY

Haki_7 · December 23

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 14: Waiting 20 minutes for a lopsided match

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhE-vxaaZfs

Haki_7 · December 24

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 15: Waiting 23 minutes for a lopsided match

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhSoU6KTJek

Haki_7 · December 24

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 16: Waiting 20 minutes for a lopsided match

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhYv9NYLid0