Theist_VII wrote: »

Groups with a Templar are not mid-maxing, they are in there because someone who plays well and would be a staple to a team mains it and refuses to play another class despite being way more useful on an Arcanist, there’s no two-ways about it.

Or they are prioritizing execute boss damage, like on Yaseyla or Ansuul HMs

OtarTheMad wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I am, I guess, one of the few who likes that Arcanist is a little easier than others. It gives players an option who can’t do those complicated rotations. Now I am a Magcro main but I enjoy my Arcanist.

People are just so obsessed with that Logs data and let it affect their opinion on a class when that class doesn’t restrict them from any content.

Honestly, for me it is getting to the point where players who are completely obsessed with Logs seem to control the fate of any class, even though sweaty score pushing is a small portion of the overall population. It just makes me play other games that are just more fun.

You're one of the many, not few. And it's perfectly fine to want the easier option. The problem starts when the easiest option is also the strongest option (in most cases). Because then it becomes the default option and nothing else have a chance to develop. Very few starting players will give up arca almost free power for a mere promise of slight and delayed in time damage increase if achieving it will need much more effort.

As for the logs, I don't think people are obsessed. It's just a way of showing how prevalent arcas are. Or backing up any opinion about power or popularity of a class. It's the only data that we have access to.

I just think that data controls things a little too much. I've been playing this game a long time and I have just seen this cycle go over and over and over where a class is on top, then player feedback gets it nerfed because of in game trial leaderboards or now ESOLogs, for years after that class now needs buffs to catch up to other classes and then another class is on top and rinse repeat.

It just gets exhausting when a class you play gets shot in the face over a part of the game you don't even play. I play my Arcanist in some PvE, but mostly PvP where it's not even the top class... nerfing it sends it to the bottom where my Necro is, then I have to try another class to probably see that nerfed. I am just kind of over this stupid cycle.

People may be disagreeing, but I think you are right. There're several problems with arcanists: yes, the ease and yes, the AoE. But arcanist dominating logs isn't the problem itself, because one class always will. Before arcanist, it was magDK... for years. Before magDK it was necro. A large portion of the trial endgame community, most notably, the section of the community builds and strategies are taken from, believe that if you don't do the META, you are failing your team. I would rather arcanist META than magDK META because at least arcanist is an accessible class to be shoehorned into (and to admit, I am a DK hater).

Either arcanist needs their AoE nerfed or every class needs a stronger AoE skill (or ZOS needs to stop making fights with a whole bunch of adds), but nothing will stop the "one class is dominating logs" problem unless ZOS somehow makes it so that class stacking is no longer the META and you need 1 of every class for buffs (and then we still wouldn't have warden DPS because warden healers).

Ruining PvE is grand hyperbole. Having a tonne of fun over here on other classes.

Everything has already been said, but I'm sick of the constant calls to nerf things from the player base. There will always be a meta, nothing prevents you from running a rainbow comp.

I wish zos would pay more attention to the PTS discussion, where people test things, and less attention to General Discussion, where feelings reign.

BahometZ wrote: »

Ruining PvE is grand hyperbole. Having a tonne of fun over here on other classes.

Everything has already been said, but I'm sick of the constant calls to nerf things from the player base. There will always be a meta, nothing prevents you from running a rainbow comp.

I wish zos would pay more attention to the PTS discussion, where people test things, and less attention to General Discussion, where feelings reign.

I think nowhere near as many players would be complaining if the meta were only 5% ahead of the average.

As it stands, I know many nightblade dps who would be happy to have keep their more difficult rotations if it meant they had a place in endgame PvE. The sad fact is that many of these top end players can't compete against a middling arcanist because years ago they chose to main on the wrong class and don't want to give it up.

No, don't nerf the arcanist. It's time to buff the other classes. They don't need to be a strong as the arcanist, just strong enough to be a viable alternative for those players that prefer to play them.

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

It is part of it because ZOS will listen to feedback and make adjustments accordingly. So, when players look at Logs or before that it was just in-game trial leaderboards and then come here and complain about that class, ZOS reads that and changes things based on that and others feedback. It’s been happening for a very long time.

It also has happened to a lot of classes and not just chapter ones. Like someone else mention above your post, it happened with Templar. It happened with NB when they were on top, DKs, Sorcs, Necros etc. it just keeps going and has not lead to any sort of balance.

Edit- all it has lead to is the class that I play becomes not so fun to play anymore and I have to switch again.

Do you honestly believe that if we didn't have logs or leaderboards it would be any different?
Players are neither blind nor stupid. Something overperforming as much as arcanists in pve right now would not go unnoticed.

I said it on other threads as well: Part of that picture we have right now is the fact that many trials, and basically ALL newer trials and even dungeons are an AOE festival also on the boss fight side and even mob fights, the latter taking more importance recently compared to old trials. This unavoidably favors ranged builds because these can fire their attacks while running around avoiding enemy aoe which a melee build cannot. Add to this that more recent boss fights ask for slotting aoe damage you end up with the arca as having the best toolkit with respect to how fights are designed right now. It is a ranged build with great aoe.

I believe that ZOS did this on purpose in order to create an incentive to buy the arcanist and as such I doubt it is going to change soon.

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Let’s be honest, shall we? Just take a look at esologs. Sure, you can play as a DPS on other classes and be somewhat effective. But for players like me, who’ve long outgrown basic veteran content, it’s obvious that the Arcanist has essentially become the only real choice for DPS. In hard mode dungeons, other classes as DPS often cause more problems than they solve.

The Arcanist has completely broken the combat standards in ESO. Its AoE damage rivals the strength of single-target spammable abilities, and then there’s Fatecarver, of course. Now that we have the Arcanist, could we maybe bring back longer durations for abilities like Puncturing Sweeps and Radiant Destruction for Templars?

Before the Arcanist was released, nearly all classes were viable, each offering unique buffs and utility. But if I’m being honest, I wouldn’t want the Arcanist to be nerfed. What I’d like is for other classes to feel just as accessible, fun, and unique. I want a couple of flexible slots in my bar and a less APM-intensive damage rotation.

I’ve been trying to return to my Nightblade after two years on an Arcanist, and wow, it’s awful. I’m forced to use all 10 slots, and with the new 10-second buff durations, I’m swapping bars way more often. It feels like playing a chaotic piano, and my DPS is still 15–20% lower than on an Arcanist.

The Arcanist feels like the ultimate experiment for this game—a successful one, I must admit. But what about the other classes, especially the vanilla four? Their skill lines and abilities feel like a random collection at this point. Knowing ZOS, I’m afraid no significant changes are coming, and the Arcanist will remain the default choice for DPS.

Rubbish. Plenty of end game progs want a mix of Arc (cleave), DK (DoT) & Plar (direct) dmg types in group, not to mention the options for a buff dd (MK sorc & Zennkosh DK) exist.

The viability for all classes exists in some way, shape or form, you simply need to adapt to it.

The point here is not if other classes are viable, it is weather other classes are up to what the arcanist can offer atm. Of course a Volkswagen Beetle is a viable car if you like to go from A to B but if it comes to going from A to B in the most efficient way (fast, low consumption) you probably would pick another car...

Soarora wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I am, I guess, one of the few who likes that Arcanist is a little easier than others. It gives players an option who can’t do those complicated rotations. Now I am a Magcro main but I enjoy my Arcanist.

People are just so obsessed with that Logs data and let it affect their opinion on a class when that class doesn’t restrict them from any content.

Honestly, for me it is getting to the point where players who are completely obsessed with Logs seem to control the fate of any class, even though sweaty score pushing is a small portion of the overall population. It just makes me play other games that are just more fun.

You're one of the many, not few. And it's perfectly fine to want the easier option. The problem starts when the easiest option is also the strongest option (in most cases). Because then it becomes the default option and nothing else have a chance to develop. Very few starting players will give up arca almost free power for a mere promise of slight and delayed in time damage increase if achieving it will need much more effort.

As for the logs, I don't think people are obsessed. It's just a way of showing how prevalent arcas are. Or backing up any opinion about power or popularity of a class. It's the only data that we have access to.

I just think that data controls things a little too much. I've been playing this game a long time and I have just seen this cycle go over and over and over where a class is on top, then player feedback gets it nerfed because of in game trial leaderboards or now ESOLogs, for years after that class now needs buffs to catch up to other classes and then another class is on top and rinse repeat.

It just gets exhausting when a class you play gets shot in the face over a part of the game you don't even play. I play my Arcanist in some PvE, but mostly PvP where it's not even the top class... nerfing it sends it to the bottom where my Necro is, then I have to try another class to probably see that nerfed. I am just kind of over this stupid cycle.

People may be disagreeing, but I think you are right. There're several problems with arcanists: yes, the ease and yes, the AoE. But arcanist dominating logs isn't the problem itself, because one class always will. Before arcanist, it was magDK... for years. Before magDK it was necro. A large portion of the trial endgame community, most notably, the section of the community builds and strategies are taken from, believe that if you don't do the META, you are failing your team. I would rather arcanist META than magDK META because at least arcanist is an accessible class to be shoehorned into (and to admit, I am a DK hater).

Either arcanist needs their AoE nerfed or every class needs a stronger AoE skill (or ZOS needs to stop making fights with a whole bunch of adds), but nothing will stop the "one class is dominating logs" problem unless ZOS somehow makes it so that class stacking is no longer the META and you need 1 of every class for buffs (and then we still wouldn't have warden DPS because warden healers).

Thanks and yeah, exactly, the meta would just change to a different class and this thread would be about a different one.

I don’t think the solution is nerfing, because ZOS has a bad history of that. They always overnerf which kills things. My solution for Arcanist is you just have to make NPC’s combat AI smarter. Look at Arcanist in PvP, fun? Sure. Top class? No, because in PvP players aren’t stupid enough to just take the beam in the face. So, because of that Arcanist is middle of the pack. So, if you can somehow apply that to PvE and like someone else said maybe change up how your dungeons work so it’s not all just pure AOE, I think that’d help.

Every class should be unique, bring something else to the table. We have gotten away from that because of the forums and “my class doesn’t have X buff” and we need to go back to that. Every skill should be viable and worth a slot in a given situation, you should never hear or see “that ability sucks.” That to me is balance. Clear unique identity, unique playstyles and all skills are good.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

It is part of it because ZOS will listen to feedback and make adjustments accordingly. So, when players look at Logs or before that it was just in-game trial leaderboards and then come here and complain about that class, ZOS reads that and changes things based on that and others feedback. It’s been happening for a very long time.

It also has happened to a lot of classes and not just chapter ones. Like someone else mention above your post, it happened with Templar. It happened with NB when they were on top, DKs, Sorcs, Necros etc. it just keeps going and has not lead to any sort of balance.

Edit- all it has lead to is the class that I play becomes not so fun to play anymore and I have to switch again.

Do you honestly believe that if we didn't have logs or leaderboards it would be any different?
Players are neither blind nor stupid. Something overperforming as much as arcanists in pve right now would not go unnoticed.

I said it on other threads as well: Part of that picture we have right now is the fact that many trials, and basically ALL newer trials and even dungeons are an AOE festival also on the boss fight side and even mob fights, the latter taking more importance recently compared to old trials. This unavoidably favors ranged builds because these can fire their attacks while running around avoiding enemy aoe which a melee build cannot. Add to this that more recent boss fights ask for slotting aoe damage you end up with the arca as having the best toolkit with respect to how fights are designed right now. It is a ranged build with great aoe.

I believe that ZOS did this on purpose in order to create an incentive to buy the arcanist and as such I doubt it is going to change soon.

I agree. Ramping up trash packs and boss adds started with Kynes Aegis and it is getting worse eversince. And arcanist looks like it was made as a perfect tool to deal with that.

Niliu wrote: »

If someone else's success in PvE, which is in no way competitive, makes you feel bad, you may need to look inwards, rather than lashing out.

PvE is competitive. You have to compete with each other to get into groups to get more achievements, whether it’s being first (FCFS), or networking, or just having good logs.

Arcs are perfect fine thanks

What zos actually need to do is buff the other classes

Looking at you magplar

Theist_VII wrote: »

I love how disingenuous people are for trying to use an extremely single-target build on Templar as a comparison to an Arcanist.

165k damage by 1 enemy is 165k dps
160k damage by 4 enemies is 640k dps

Not even close.

Groups with a Templar are not mid-maxing, they are in there because someone who plays well and would be a staple to a team mains it and refuses to play another class despite being way more useful on an Arcanist, there’s no two-ways about it.

Okay, let's break it down.

The only, only thing that matters when it comes to how fast a boss fight goes is boss damage. That's usually what people consider "single-target" damage, but it's more nuanced than that.

Your comparison on multiple enemies only matters if damage on all of those enemies contribute to a fight's speed. Yes, there are some bosses like that, such as the Reef Guardian in Dreadsail Reef.

However, in most fights, what you're seeing as "AoE" damage is usually just in regards to minor enemies being stacked in group, and the death of those enemies is either not prioritized, already inevitable, or simply just not necessary. Example bosses would be Tideborn Taleria in Dreadsail Reef or The Chimera in Sanity's Edge. You're not doing 160k damage to 4 bosses, you're doing 160k damage to one boss and three tiny little imps that die in two seconds and have no outcome on the actual fight itself.

Again, there's nuance to this. There is exactly one situation where more enemies being stacked in group actually results in higher boss damage: Azureblight. This set excels in fights where there are constant swarms of smaller enemies being stacked on top of the boss, and Arcanists are able to leverage their ability to uber-stack Azureblight ticks on a small area to achieve extremely-high boss damage. Think Count Ryelaz and Zilyesset in Lucent Citadel.

There's another variable you must consider: execute phases. Many bosses in this game have an "execute phase" where once they reach a certain health threshold (about 30%, but it varies), there is either a hard dps check to end the fight, or the stacking and speeding up of boss mechanics become so dangerous that the safest option is to rush that execute phase as fast as possible. You'll find these fights almost everywhere, such as Yaseyla, Ansuul, Taleria, Oaxiltso, Xalvakka, Falgravn, Rakkhat, The Mage, etc. This is where classes with good execute capabilities come in, e.g. Nightblades, Sorcerers (using Mages' Fury morphs), Necromancers, and of course the strongest being Templars.

Funnily enough, both Necromancers and Templars are in a situation where 1. they're good at stacking Azureblight, and 2. they're good at execute damage. This means that both Necromancers and Templars are still desirable classes to have in many trials, the former being better at stacking Azureblight throughout the entire fight, the latter being way better at smiting bosses.

In fact, you can probably place these classes on an Azureblight-to-Execute scale like this: Arcanists, Dragonknights, Necromancers, Templars (we do not talk about the other classes). What this means is that you can mix and match them to form team comps based on the content you are trying to do. Lucent Citadel? More Arcanists and Dragonknights. Sanity's Edge? Mix it up with a few Necromancers. Kyne's Aegis? More Templars. Dreadsail Reef? All of them.

Aside from the obvious AoE damage and Azureblight synergy, groups are running this many Arcanists because, well, they're extremely easy to play well, and they're extremely survivable. If all you are trying to do is push for a trifecta, it's simply easiest to do so on an Arcanist. Nothing more.

Cooperharley wrote: »

Arcanist good, necro bad, me mad!

First time? ZOS will likely bring an absolute sledgehammer to the arcanist shortly before the expansion next year. Maybe with update 45 in Q1 when they aren’t trying to drive sales for gold road as aggressively to the point of just absolute sadness like necro. And then likely spend the next few years piecing together “buffs” for arcanist that nobody suggests or asks for & make the situation worse

I really don't think so. Oakensorc HA meta didn't seriously get nerfed until there was an alternative (arcanist) came along. There is no way ZOS are going to kill off their cash cow (namely, the main reason people would buy Necrom) until there is a new class that comes along. Since none has been announced, we can be assured that the arcanist meta will be here to stay.

And yes, when Elswher came out the Necro was meta but the difference there was that necro rotations still required a high level of skill. These players were still endgame players and not middle level players who could ignore and simplify mechs that other classes were forced to do.

A good comparison to what I consider a healthy balance is here with Final Fantasy 14. Admittedly I'm not super experienced with the game but from my understanding, here is the dps of the different classes in actual content.


Noticed how close the top classes are? This means that players with a variety of different playstyles can each choose the class that suits them best rather than being forced to play a single class. There isn't one single meta but likely a meta for each class which would bring in a lot more class diversity and enjoyment.

This is something I would really like to see ESO work their way towards in the future.