Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Celerity becomes a much less mandatory CP allowing for other CP to be viable options

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

The aging game engine makes you miss attacks.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

Congrats. You sprinted after a sorc that every time he left steak he walked and jumped for 2 seconds before streaking again. It was also nice of them to go in a straight line.

I'm not really sure how this is an argument against movement speed.

The point of this post is "speed causes me to miss attacks so nerf speed."

The aging game engine makes you miss attacks. I stood behind a guard earlier and, with neither of us moving, held down a heavy attack. It missed.

You can argue that "speed" causes you to miss when you shouldn't have missed. I posit that most of the time you missed because you didn't target the player because they invested in better movement. The answer isn't to punish that player. The answer is to either build to counter that or find other targets.

I fight blazing fast builds all the time. 99% of the time I have no issue hitting them. Every once in awhile an ultimate won't fire or whirling blades with lag out. That has nothing to do with the target wearing wild hunt.

This thread is just one big finger pointing at a problem that isn't actually the cause of their grief.

And I'll say this again. Adding up speed percentages is not an accurate depiction on how much actual speed increase you get. The only way to accurately see the difference is do what I did.

One side has minor expedition. You can decide if they are 15% faster.

https://youtu.be/zZqA2D7Olv4?si=q1Wp0qlc9pyv4zTM

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

The aging game engine makes you miss attacks.

Its not like the code is growing old and just has weak knees.... It is because changes were made which brough the game outside of the original design scope of the engine. AVAILABLE speed bonus being over 2x what they used to be, and AVERAGE speed bonuses used is probably 3x.

If you have proof of other issues involving stationary targets, please feel free to document them and make a post explaining the bug. Otherwise it won't get fixed. Those sound easy enough to do repeated tests considering it is against guards.

It's not a bug. It's the code, which they said they were going to rewrite and then never talked about it again.

By your logic, every update over the last 8 years would be removed or drastically altered because that's when they started expanding things beyond what was initially envisioned.

Every new skill. Every new class. Every new proc. Every new animation. Every new skin and personality. These all contribute to server straight.

All of that has added strain to the system and it has influenced them to do things differently.

I like that you completely ignored the video while asking me for a video of missing heavy attacks.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

My preferred rework here would be that snowthreaders reduces your movement speed cap to 50% instead of the current 100%.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

Congrats. You sprinted after a sorc that every time he left steak he walked and jumped for 2 seconds before streaking again. It was also nice of them to go in a straight line.

I'm not really sure how this is an argument against movement speed.

The point of this post is "speed causes me to miss attacks so nerf speed."

The aging game engine makes you miss attacks. I stood behind a guard earlier and, with neither of us moving, held down a heavy attack. It missed.

You can argue that "speed" causes you to miss when you shouldn't have missed. I posit that most of the time you missed because you didn't target the player because they invested in better movement. The answer isn't to punish that player. The answer is to either build to counter that or find other targets.

I fight blazing fast builds all the time. 99% of the time I have no issue hitting them. Every once in awhile an ultimate won't fire or whirling blades with lag out. That has nothing to do with the target wearing wild hunt.

This thread is just one big finger pointing at a problem that isn't actually the cause of their grief.

And I'll say this again. Adding up speed percentages is not an accurate depiction on how much actual speed increase you get. The only way to accurately see the difference is do what I did.

One side has minor expedition. You can decide if they are 15% faster.

https://youtu.be/zZqA2D7Olv4?si=q1Wp0qlc9pyv4zTM

Sprinting after a Sorc that Streak 3x in a row and catching up to him within 3s shows you how strong movement speed is. No need for a gap closer, just sprint.

You can't possibly make any argument to make your position look better.

Streak is arguably one of the strongest abilities in the game and is in my opinion what gives sorc most if its class identity in PvP (and I´m not saying there is something wrong with that, just wanna make that clear). But just because players have the option to build for more speed and being able to catch up, doesn´t mean that speed is "too good". If sorc defense mainly relied on streak (like it kinda did before the ridiculous hardened ward buff), then I´d 100% understand your point (I still do, but I think it´s good the have some kind of "soft-counter" to streak in the current meta where sorcs/magsorcs is as strong as it is).

Only time I find speed to be an issue is when it´s paired with snowthreaders in 6-12 man groups where the trade-off with snowthreaders gets completely nullified. My preferred rework here would be that snowthreaders reduces your movement speed cap to 50% instead of the current 100%.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

@DrSlaughtr What is the purpose in your speed comparison though? It just shows the player with minor goes faster. If you want us to back calculate how movement speed % apply we could do that. From your vid we can take the values:

(note that your stopwatch in the vid has milliseconds only count to 60. I did check that your stopwatch counts seconds correctly as far as i can tell.)
Base: ~9.75s
Minor(15%): ~9.16s

The difference in time is about 6.5% but where does this come from? My guess is that current base speed is different from what the % speed applies to. Or base speed is not actually base speed and has built in % modifiers applied to it. Perhaps from the old unsheathed weapon movement slow or something similar. >> it isnt simply base[U/s] + base[U/s]*(major 0.3+minor 0.15......etc).
It is as though base == 100U/s but the movement speed buff of 15% applies to ~90U/s( which basically becomes 13.5% of 100) and is divided by 2 for 6.75% which brings us close enough to your 6.5% speed buff derived from the time in the vid.

My arguments are all relative tho, and dont care about the absolute values.>> my arguments dont care if 15% is actually 15%. Unless you are claiming that 15% used to actually be 15% back in the day and now 15% is only 6.5% We would have seen a difference in speed when summerset hit though, which wasn't the case.

Well, first off it's 9.46 vs 9.11 seconds, which is 5.9%.

And that's my point. Numerous posts in this thread are adding up all the various percentage sources to increase speed and acting like they translate to directly. They don't.

So if we can stop pretending like the percentages are indicative of real world speed, then we can stop overreacting to this.

None of us have access to the code base and they don't comment on things like that.

Yes, these things make you faster. That is why people like me sacrifice to use them. However they do not make you The Flash.

And most importantly: They do not break the game. If you are missing attacks, then welcome to the club. Attacks miss. Skills don't fire. We're playing an old laggy game. It's going to happen. So what do you do if all speed sources are removed and it keeps happening? Find something else to blame than the obvious?

I also have zero sympathy for someone who chooses not to be fast being mad they can't chase someone who is. What game are we trying to play here?

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

@DrSlaughtr What is the purpose in your speed comparison though? It just shows the player with minor goes faster. If you want us to back calculate how movement speed % apply we could do that. From your vid we can take the values:

(note that your stopwatch in the vid has milliseconds only count to 60. I did check that your stopwatch counts seconds correctly as far as i can tell.)
Base: ~9.75s
Minor(15%): ~9.16s

The difference in time is about 6.5% but where does this come from? My guess is that current base speed is different from what the % speed applies to. Or base speed is not actually base speed and has built in % modifiers applied to it. Perhaps from the old unsheathed weapon movement slow or something similar. >> it isnt simply base[U/s] + base[U/s]*(major 0.3+minor 0.15......etc).
It is as though base == 100U/s but the movement speed buff of 15% applies to ~90U/s( which basically becomes 13.5% of 100) and is divided by 2 for 6.75% which brings us close enough to your 6.5% speed buff derived from the time in the vid.

My arguments are all relative tho, and dont care about the absolute values.>> my arguments dont care if 15% is actually 15%. Unless you are claiming that 15% used to actually be 15% back in the day and now 15% is only 6.5% We would have seen a difference in speed when summerset hit though, which wasn't the case.

Well, first off it's 9.46 vs 9.11 seconds, which is 5.9%.

And that's my point. Numerous posts in this thread are adding up all the various percentage sources to increase speed and acting like they translate to directly. They don't.

So if we can stop pretending like the percentages are indicative of real world speed, then we can stop overreacting to this.

None of us have access to the code base and they don't comment on things like that.

Yes, these things make you faster. That is why people like me sacrifice to use them. However they do not make you The Flash.

And most importantly: They do not break the game. If you are missing attacks, then welcome to the club. Attacks miss. Skills don't fire. We're playing an old laggy game. It's going to happen. So what do you do if all speed sources are removed and it keeps happening? Find something else to blame than the obvious?

I also have zero sympathy for someone who chooses not to be fast being mad they can't chase someone who is. What game are we trying to play here?

It is not 9.46 vs 9.11 ............ Like I said your timer incorrectly only counts to 0.60 each second instead of 0.99. So the comparison for % should be converted to actual time of 9.75=9.46 vs 9.18=9.11 (I originally chose 9.16 for this since I did the math in my head as 9.10)

Again whether the percentage == the actual rate increase doesn't matter for any of the arguments covered in the thread.

I also have zero sympathy for someone complaining about not building for something and then wondering why their build cant do said thing. Much like people not running streak counters and forever complaining about streak.

Still no arguments why average walking speed needs to be so close to cap. Even in the OP proposed speed you would be faster than pre summerset, with the ability to still build for cap if you need to walk that fast. Speed is relative and everyone builds it, no reason it needs to be so out of balance with all of the other systems in the game that wont power creep with it.

It isn't out of balance. ZOS programmed the balance as is. They created swift. They created wild hunt. They added in the various speed CP. That's the balance. You don't like the balance.

You also didn't do your math correctly.

After Effects calculated milliseconds weird, you are correct on that. But you didn't break it down correctly.

AE assumed 60 milliseconds per second. So each second has 60 milliseconds. That means 9.11 seconds equals 9x60+11=551.

9x60+46=586.

586-551=35.

35/586= .0597%.

But it's semantics. Even your math didn't approach 15%. And ultimately that isn't your argument. That was an argument for the previous posts.

You say min-maxing speed is imbalanced because you don't like it. I say that isn't a valid reason to kick me in the metaphorical balls to slow me down so you can have a higher chance of hitting me.

And you should consider the negative outcome of making people slower.

1. Streak becomes stronger against slower enemies when running away...... Counter argument is that gap closers already counter streak distance, sustain, damage. (currently people dont use gap closers because they can walk faster)
2. Minor expedition is a joke now compared to everyone else who uses RATs and maintains major. The old 10% was huge back against 90% movement players. Now one swift or cp basically counters it. I would argue to make a more interesting kiss curse speed buff on hurricane for class identity. (~25% speed that decreases as hurricane increases in damage)

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Its bad if you can negate a core combat mechanic like sprint altogether, I cant see why people argue against that.

By games own logic you should not be able to move fast AND have a stamina regen on AND be able to perform other actions.

Just Imagine if mitigation could be abused to the point when you simply can forget about block, slot sithis gaze and have passive mitigation at least at the value that is half of what tanks can have while blocking. Insane right? Or, lets say, you could dodge cost free and be able to perform other actions - would it be game breaking? If it come at a cost of 1 cp, 3 jewelry glyphs and 2 skills, will it be too much of an investmet to justify it being in the game?

Somehow its okay with movement speed. I dont see how its okay. Sprint is a core combat mechanic, and you have yours stam regen disabled and being stripped of ability to perform other actions for a reason. Wanna move fast - pay the sprinting tax.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Its bad if you can negate a core combat mechanic like sprint altogether, I cant see why people argue against that.

By games own logic you should not be able to move fast AND have a stamina regen on AND be able to perform other actions.

Just Imagine if mitigation could be abused to the point when you simply can forget about block, slot sithis gaze and have passive mitigation at least at the value that is half of what tanks can have while blocking. Insane right? Or, lets say, you could dodge cost free and be able to perform other actions - would it be game breaking? If it come at a cost of 1 cp, 3 jewelry glyphs and 2 skills, will it be too much of an investmet to justify it being in the game?

Somehow its okay with movement speed. I dont see how its okay. Sprint is a core combat mechanic, and you have yours stam regen disabled and being stripped of ability to perform other actions for a reason. Wanna move fast - pay the sprinting tax.

Exactly this. But also want to add, dodge rolls are another core combat mechanic that the current passive/baseline speed messes with a lot more than players realise.

Dodge rolls are the intended way of "dodging" attacks (outside of super niche and honestly, bad 5 piece sets). Thanks to power creep of passive/baseline speed and the associated exacerbation of positional desync issues such baseline speed enables, you don't even really need to roll all that much anymore because nothing can reliably land on you if you move fast enough (even targeted attacks fail to land, especially if they have a cast time/delay).

Dodge rolling is a core combat mechanic of this game, that is balanced around its stamina cost that ramps up exponentially if used in quick succession for a reason. If you want to dodge attacks - pay the (ramping) dodge roll cost.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Its bad if you can negate a core combat mechanic like sprint altogether, I cant see why people argue against that.

By games own logic you should not be able to move fast AND have a stamina regen on AND be able to perform other actions.

Just Imagine if mitigation could be abused to the point when you simply can forget about block, slot sithis gaze and have passive mitigation at least at the value that is half of what tanks can have while blocking. Insane right? Or, lets say, you could dodge cost free and be able to perform other actions - would it be game breaking? If it come at a cost of 1 cp, 3 jewelry glyphs and 2 skills, will it be too much of an investmet to justify it being in the game?

Somehow its okay with movement speed. I dont see how its okay. Sprint is a core combat mechanic, and you have yours stam regen disabled and being stripped of ability to perform other actions for a reason. Wanna move fast - pay the sprinting tax.

Exactly this. But also want to add, dodge rolls are another core combat mechanic that the current passive/baseline speed messes with a lot more than players realise.

Dodge rolls are the intended way of "dodging" attacks (outside of super niche and honestly, bad 5 piece sets). Thanks to power creep of passive/baseline speed and the associated exacerbation of positional desync issues such baseline speed enables, you don't even really need to roll all that much anymore because nothing can reliably land on you if you move fast enough (even targeted attacks fail to land, especially if they have a cast time/delay).

Dodge rolling is a core combat mechanic of this game, that is balanced around its stamina cost that ramps up exponentially if used in quick succession for a reason. If you want to dodge attacks - pay the (ramping) dodge roll cost.

Also good points to add as I was really only focused on comparing movement sources and not just the blatant abuse of 100% damage mit from being able to strafe 10m/s away from 5m skills. (of which I 100% abuse)

Funny to also say that the snare/root counterplays are being ignored by both roll dodge and speed. Why slot a costly short duration skill when you could just overall have enough speed to not bother or roll dodge instead. Again its a clear sign that something is not functioning properly when players ignore the core mechanic and compensate in other unintended ways.

Yep, I have never felt as untouchable defensively in this game as when slotting wildhunt for that baseline speed to just naturally avoid incoming attacks as I move around, especially back when we were in a more melee dominated meta than we currently are (part of the reason as well that I prefer flurry as the spammable when running melee DW since that ability seems to have target tracking built in so it still follows and reliably hits the target even if they are moving fast).