Movement and Speed Must be addressed

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Celerity becomes a much less mandatory CP allowing for other CP to be viable options

Delete Celerity from PvP. All it does is speed creep the whole game by 10%. Make it PvE only or launch it into the sun.

StaticWave

Nerf excess movement speed and we’ll see who needs to l2p real quick. Hint: it’s definitely not the 1vXers or brawler builds.

StaticWave

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

DrSlaughtr

StaticWave wrote: »

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

Congrats. You sprinted after a sorc that every time he left steak he walked and jumped for 2 seconds before streaking again. It was also nice of them to go in a straight line.

I'm not really sure how this is an argument against movement speed.

The point of this post is "speed causes me to miss attacks so nerf speed."

The aging game engine makes you miss attacks. I stood behind a guard earlier and, with neither of us moving, held down a heavy attack. It missed.

You can argue that "speed" causes you to miss when you shouldn't have missed. I posit that most of the time you missed because you didn't target the player because they invested in better movement. The answer isn't to punish that player. The answer is to either build to counter that or find other targets.

I fight blazing fast builds all the time. 99% of the time I have no issue hitting them. Every once in awhile an ultimate won't fire or whirling blades with lag out. That has nothing to do with the target wearing wild hunt.

This thread is just one big finger pointing at a problem that isn't actually the cause of their grief.

And I'll say this again. Adding up speed percentages is not an accurate depiction on how much actual speed increase you get. The only way to accurately see the difference is do what I did.

One side has minor expedition. You can decide if they are 15% faster.

https://youtu.be/zZqA2D7Olv4?si=q1Wp0qlc9pyv4zTM

MincMincMinc

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

The aging game engine makes you miss attacks.

Its not like the code is growing old and just has weak knees.... It is because changes were made which brough the game outside of the original design scope of the engine. AVAILABLE speed bonus being over 2x what they used to be, and AVERAGE speed bonuses used is probably 3x.

If you have proof of other issues involving stationary targets, please feel free to document them and make a post explaining the bug. Otherwise it won't get fixed. Those sound easy enough to do repeated tests considering it is against guards.

DrSlaughtr

MincMincMinc wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

The aging game engine makes you miss attacks.

Its not like the code is growing old and just has weak knees.... It is because changes were made which brough the game outside of the original design scope of the engine. AVAILABLE speed bonus being over 2x what they used to be, and AVERAGE speed bonuses used is probably 3x.

If you have proof of other issues involving stationary targets, please feel free to document them and make a post explaining the bug. Otherwise it won't get fixed. Those sound easy enough to do repeated tests considering it is against guards.

It's not a bug. It's the code, which they said they were going to rewrite and then never talked about it again.

By your logic, every update over the last 8 years would be removed or drastically altered because that's when they started expanding things beyond what was initially envisioned.

Every new skill. Every new class. Every new proc. Every new animation. Every new skin and personality. These all contribute to server straight.

All of that has added strain to the system and it has influenced them to do things differently.

I like that you completely ignored the video while asking me for a video of missing heavy attacks.

StaticWave

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

Congrats. You sprinted after a sorc that every time he left steak he walked and jumped for 2 seconds before streaking again. It was also nice of them to go in a straight line.

I'm not really sure how this is an argument against movement speed.

The point of this post is "speed causes me to miss attacks so nerf speed."

The aging game engine makes you miss attacks. I stood behind a guard earlier and, with neither of us moving, held down a heavy attack. It missed.

You can argue that "speed" causes you to miss when you shouldn't have missed. I posit that most of the time you missed because you didn't target the player because they invested in better movement. The answer isn't to punish that player. The answer is to either build to counter that or find other targets.

I fight blazing fast builds all the time. 99% of the time I have no issue hitting them. Every once in awhile an ultimate won't fire or whirling blades with lag out. That has nothing to do with the target wearing wild hunt.

This thread is just one big finger pointing at a problem that isn't actually the cause of their grief.

And I'll say this again. Adding up speed percentages is not an accurate depiction on how much actual speed increase you get. The only way to accurately see the difference is do what I did.

One side has minor expedition. You can decide if they are 15% faster.

https://youtu.be/zZqA2D7Olv4?si=q1Wp0qlc9pyv4zTM

Sprinting after a Sorc that Streak 3x in a row and catching up to him within 3s shows you how strong movement speed is. No need for a gap closer, just sprint.

You can't possibly make any argument to make your position look better.

StaticWave

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

One side has minor expedition. You can decide if they are 15% faster.

https://youtu.be/zZqA2D7Olv4?si=q1Wp0qlc9pyv4zTM

This is a flawed comparison. If you want to compare speed difference you need to do it with another player standing next to you. Here I did a more accurate comparison for you:

https://youtu.be/iLKUtqmduDo

I gave that guy a 5m head start and still caught up and passed him at the end. The reason he forfeited first is because of latency difference, but if both of us had low latency then I would forfeit first. That was with 15% extra movement speed from Hurricane, nothing else. Now imagine if I stacked more movement speed like Major Expedition and Swift. The difference is astronomical.

An extra 15% movement speed WILL make you move faster, period. There's no argument against that.

MincMincMinc

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

The aging game engine makes you miss attacks.

Its not like the code is growing old and just has weak knees.... It is because changes were made which brough the game outside of the original design scope of the engine. AVAILABLE speed bonus being over 2x what they used to be, and AVERAGE speed bonuses used is probably 3x.

If you have proof of other issues involving stationary targets, please feel free to document them and make a post explaining the bug. Otherwise it won't get fixed. Those sound easy enough to do repeated tests considering it is against guards.

It's not a bug. It's the code, which they said they were going to rewrite and then never talked about it again.

By your logic, every update over the last 8 years would be removed or drastically altered because that's when they started expanding things beyond what was initially envisioned.

Every new skill. Every new class. Every new proc. Every new animation. Every new skin and personality. These all contribute to server straight.

All of that has added strain to the system and it has influenced them to do things differently.

I like that you completely ignored the video while asking me for a video of missing heavy attacks.

I'm not at all saying revert 8 years. Simply staying within the bounds of the physics engine locomotion is what I am asking. I dont understand the argument for why we need to WALK at speed cap. Why should we ignore sprint as a mechanic? Why should gap closers serve no purpose? etc.... the only counterargument people have somewhat substantiated in good faith so far is that there are 1-2 trial mechanics that would be affected. Why are you against having speed brought to reasonable values?

Saying other aspects of the game are buggy, so why bother addressing something is a nonsensical take.

Ignored what video, the vid of you just walking showing movement speed bonuses functioning? I dont understand what you were proving. Were you trying to argue that the difference isn't significant? Again if you found a bug or issue, why not go start a thread and advocate for it to be addressed?

Major_Mangle

StaticWave wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

Congrats. You sprinted after a sorc that every time he left steak he walked and jumped for 2 seconds before streaking again. It was also nice of them to go in a straight line.

I'm not really sure how this is an argument against movement speed.

The point of this post is "speed causes me to miss attacks so nerf speed."

The aging game engine makes you miss attacks. I stood behind a guard earlier and, with neither of us moving, held down a heavy attack. It missed.

You can argue that "speed" causes you to miss when you shouldn't have missed. I posit that most of the time you missed because you didn't target the player because they invested in better movement. The answer isn't to punish that player. The answer is to either build to counter that or find other targets.

I fight blazing fast builds all the time. 99% of the time I have no issue hitting them. Every once in awhile an ultimate won't fire or whirling blades with lag out. That has nothing to do with the target wearing wild hunt.

This thread is just one big finger pointing at a problem that isn't actually the cause of their grief.

And I'll say this again. Adding up speed percentages is not an accurate depiction on how much actual speed increase you get. The only way to accurately see the difference is do what I did.

One side has minor expedition. You can decide if they are 15% faster.

https://youtu.be/zZqA2D7Olv4?si=q1Wp0qlc9pyv4zTM

Sprinting after a Sorc that Streak 3x in a row and catching up to him within 3s shows you how strong movement speed is. No need for a gap closer, just sprint.

You can't possibly make any argument to make your position look better.

Streak is arguably one of the strongest abilities in the game and is in my opinion what gives sorc most if its class identity in PvP (and I´m not saying there is something wrong with that, just wanna make that clear). But just because players have the option to build for more speed and being able to catch up, doesn´t mean that speed is "too good". If sorc defense mainly relied on streak (like it kinda did before the ridiculous hardened ward buff), then I´d 100% understand your point (I still do, but I think it´s good the have some kind of "soft-counter" to streak in the current meta where sorcs/magsorcs is as strong as it is).

Only time I find speed to be an issue is when it´s paired with snowthreaders in 6-12 man groups where the trade-off with snowthreaders gets completely nullified. My preferred rework here would be that snowthreaders reduces your movement speed cap to 50% instead of the current 100%.

Aldoss

Major_Mangle wrote: »

My preferred rework here would be that snowthreaders reduces your movement speed cap to 50% instead of the current 100%.

Give it the pale order or rallying cry treatment. Snow treaders should be an option for niche solo builds.

Each person in a group should drop your movement speed cap by 12%, making it so that a ball group now has a cap of 66%.

MincMincMinc

Major_Mangle wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

Congrats. You sprinted after a sorc that every time he left steak he walked and jumped for 2 seconds before streaking again. It was also nice of them to go in a straight line.

I'm not really sure how this is an argument against movement speed.

The point of this post is "speed causes me to miss attacks so nerf speed."

The aging game engine makes you miss attacks. I stood behind a guard earlier and, with neither of us moving, held down a heavy attack. It missed.

You can argue that "speed" causes you to miss when you shouldn't have missed. I posit that most of the time you missed because you didn't target the player because they invested in better movement. The answer isn't to punish that player. The answer is to either build to counter that or find other targets.

I fight blazing fast builds all the time. 99% of the time I have no issue hitting them. Every once in awhile an ultimate won't fire or whirling blades with lag out. That has nothing to do with the target wearing wild hunt.

This thread is just one big finger pointing at a problem that isn't actually the cause of their grief.

And I'll say this again. Adding up speed percentages is not an accurate depiction on how much actual speed increase you get. The only way to accurately see the difference is do what I did.

One side has minor expedition. You can decide if they are 15% faster.

https://youtu.be/zZqA2D7Olv4?si=q1Wp0qlc9pyv4zTM

Sprinting after a Sorc that Streak 3x in a row and catching up to him within 3s shows you how strong movement speed is. No need for a gap closer, just sprint.

You can't possibly make any argument to make your position look better.

Streak is arguably one of the strongest abilities in the game and is in my opinion what gives sorc most if its class identity in PvP (and I´m not saying there is something wrong with that, just wanna make that clear). But just because players have the option to build for more speed and being able to catch up, doesn´t mean that speed is "too good". If sorc defense mainly relied on streak (like it kinda did before the ridiculous hardened ward buff), then I´d 100% understand your point (I still do, but I think it´s good the have some kind of "soft-counter" to streak in the current meta where sorcs/magsorcs is as strong as it is).

Only time I find speed to be an issue is when it´s paired with snowthreaders in 6-12 man groups where the trade-off with snowthreaders gets completely nullified. My preferred rework here would be that snowthreaders reduces your movement speed cap to 50% instead of the current 100%.

Snow treaders being used only proves my OP. Snares/roots have poor play/counterplay. Movement speed is so high and easy to stack that you no longer need sprint or gap closers. Instead of reducing the cap snow treaders would be better to simply block movement speed buffs, but allow sprinting.(effectively caps you at 140% before sprint buffs) The big issue with ball groups is that they can move untouched AND cast 12x stacking healing skills at max movement speed. AGAIN because speed is so easy to get that you can walk and cast at speed cap on average builds.

StaticWave

Major_Mangle wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

Congrats. You sprinted after a sorc that every time he left steak he walked and jumped for 2 seconds before streaking again. It was also nice of them to go in a straight line.

I'm not really sure how this is an argument against movement speed.

The point of this post is "speed causes me to miss attacks so nerf speed."

The aging game engine makes you miss attacks. I stood behind a guard earlier and, with neither of us moving, held down a heavy attack. It missed.

You can argue that "speed" causes you to miss when you shouldn't have missed. I posit that most of the time you missed because you didn't target the player because they invested in better movement. The answer isn't to punish that player. The answer is to either build to counter that or find other targets.

I fight blazing fast builds all the time. 99% of the time I have no issue hitting them. Every once in awhile an ultimate won't fire or whirling blades with lag out. That has nothing to do with the target wearing wild hunt.

This thread is just one big finger pointing at a problem that isn't actually the cause of their grief.

And I'll say this again. Adding up speed percentages is not an accurate depiction on how much actual speed increase you get. The only way to accurately see the difference is do what I did.

One side has minor expedition. You can decide if they are 15% faster.

https://youtu.be/zZqA2D7Olv4?si=q1Wp0qlc9pyv4zTM

Sprinting after a Sorc that Streak 3x in a row and catching up to him within 3s shows you how strong movement speed is. No need for a gap closer, just sprint.

You can't possibly make any argument to make your position look better.

Streak is arguably one of the strongest abilities in the game and is in my opinion what gives sorc most if its class identity in PvP (and I´m not saying there is something wrong with that, just wanna make that clear). But just because players have the option to build for more speed and being able to catch up, doesn´t mean that speed is "too good". If sorc defense mainly relied on streak (like it kinda did before the ridiculous hardened ward buff), then I´d 100% understand your point (I still do, but I think it´s good the have some kind of "soft-counter" to streak in the current meta where sorcs/magsorcs is as strong as it is).

Only time I find speed to be an issue is when it´s paired with snowthreaders in 6-12 man groups where the trade-off with snowthreaders gets completely nullified. My preferred rework here would be that snowthreaders reduces your movement speed cap to 50% instead of the current 100%.

I don’t even use Streak anymore because there are so many snares and roots being thrown around in outnumbered PvP. I swapped to BoL and it’s a huge difference in survivability. Sure I lost the AoE stun but the snare/root cleanse and immunity is much better imo for outnumbered PvP. It’s not like I have a huge offensive window anyway so the AoE stun on DB is enough for me. Turn around, ult a group of people, get a quick kill (or a few kills if I’m lucky), and go back to kiting.

It’s exactly like what @MincMincMinc said. Streak by itself isn’t really OP as an escape skill because a snare/root can counter it pretty easily. It’s the snare/root immunity on top of high movement speed that allows people to abuse location desync and be super hard to kill.

DrSlaughtr

StaticWave wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

“Streak OP” they said. Movement speed is fine they said.

I just show em this clip:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=RmnoPXoDzcyk4hrs

Perfectly sums up what’s currently wrong with movement speed lol.

Congrats. You sprinted after a sorc that every time he left steak he walked and jumped for 2 seconds before streaking again. It was also nice of them to go in a straight line.

I'm not really sure how this is an argument against movement speed.

The point of this post is "speed causes me to miss attacks so nerf speed."

The aging game engine makes you miss attacks. I stood behind a guard earlier and, with neither of us moving, held down a heavy attack. It missed.

You can argue that "speed" causes you to miss when you shouldn't have missed. I posit that most of the time you missed because you didn't target the player because they invested in better movement. The answer isn't to punish that player. The answer is to either build to counter that or find other targets.

I fight blazing fast builds all the time. 99% of the time I have no issue hitting them. Every once in awhile an ultimate won't fire or whirling blades with lag out. That has nothing to do with the target wearing wild hunt.

This thread is just one big finger pointing at a problem that isn't actually the cause of their grief.

And I'll say this again. Adding up speed percentages is not an accurate depiction on how much actual speed increase you get. The only way to accurately see the difference is do what I did.

One side has minor expedition. You can decide if they are 15% faster.

https://youtu.be/zZqA2D7Olv4?si=q1Wp0qlc9pyv4zTM

Sprinting after a Sorc that Streak 3x in a row and catching up to him within 3s shows you how strong movement speed is. No need for a gap closer, just sprint.

You can't possibly make any argument to make your position look better.

He kept stopping, jumping and walking.... If he streaked, ani cancelled, streaked, ani cancelled, and streaked, you wouldn't have caught him. Also no where is it written that streak has to be x amount "faster" than sprinting with buffs.

Aggrovious

Another PVP nerf post, please end me

DrSlaughtr

StaticWave wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

One side has minor expedition. You can decide if they are 15% faster.

https://youtu.be/zZqA2D7Olv4?si=q1Wp0qlc9pyv4zTM

This is a flawed comparison. If you want to compare speed difference you need to do it with another player standing next to you. Here I did a more accurate comparison for you:

https://youtu.be/iLKUtqmduDo

I gave that guy a 5m head start and still caught up and passed him at the end. The reason he forfeited first is because of latency difference, but if both of us had low latency then I would forfeit first. That was with 15% extra movement speed from Hurricane, nothing else. Now imagine if I stacked more movement speed like Major Expedition and Swift. The difference is astronomical.

An extra 15% movement speed WILL make you move faster, period. There's no argument against that.

Well, first off, the way I did it was actually a valid comparison. Exactly the same character, with the same stats, with the same CP, with no gear and the only difference is that one had minor expedition and one didn't. There were no other speed increases added on, except for Celerity, because I forgot to take that off. Even still, the point being, is it was an exact comparison.

Secondly, I went a lot farther than you did.

Thirdly, you conveniently didn't show either character's gear or skills and who knows if you're sprinting or not.

Yes, it does increase your speed. No, it isn't "15% faster" in the way you and others are presenting it. It does increase your speed. What you don't seem to grasp is that the mathematics do not scale the way you think they do.

If it did, then the way I DID IT, which is much more accurate, the non-minor expedition character would have finished nearly 1.5 seconds later. Instead it was about .3 seconds slower.

So every time someone does the Hangover math counting meme at all the speed percentage increases, maybe consider it doesn't scale the way you think it does, which was my point. Faster? Yes. Significantly faster? Not on its own. You have to stack various sources of speed increase to have a notable result.

You and a heavy armor buddy going 20 meters without even bothering to display what either is running is, quite frankly, note noteworthy evidence of anything.

MincMincMinc

@DrSlaughtr What is the purpose in your speed comparison though? It just shows the player with minor goes faster. If you want us to back calculate how movement speed % apply we could do that. From your vid we can take the values:

(note that your stopwatch in the vid has milliseconds only count to 60. I did check that your stopwatch counts seconds correctly as far as i can tell.)
Base: ~9.75s
Minor(15%): ~9.16s

The difference in time is about 6.5% but where does this come from? My guess is that current base speed is different from what the % speed applies to. Or base speed is not actually base speed and has built in % modifiers applied to it. Perhaps from the old unsheathed weapon movement slow or something similar. >> it isnt simply base[U/s] + base[U/s]*(major 0.3+minor 0.15......etc).
It is as though base == 100U/s but the movement speed buff of 15% applies to ~90U/s( which basically becomes 13.5% of 100) and is divided by 2 for 6.75% which brings us close enough to your 6.5% speed buff derived from the time in the vid.

My arguments are all relative tho, and dont care about the absolute values.>> my arguments dont care if 15% is actually 15%. Unless you are claiming that 15% used to actually be 15% back in the day and now 15% is only 6.5% We would have seen a difference in speed when summerset hit though, which wasn't the case.

DrSlaughtr

MincMincMinc wrote: »

@DrSlaughtr What is the purpose in your speed comparison though? It just shows the player with minor goes faster. If you want us to back calculate how movement speed % apply we could do that. From your vid we can take the values:

(note that your stopwatch in the vid has milliseconds only count to 60. I did check that your stopwatch counts seconds correctly as far as i can tell.)
Base: ~9.75s
Minor(15%): ~9.16s

The difference in time is about 6.5% but where does this come from? My guess is that current base speed is different from what the % speed applies to. Or base speed is not actually base speed and has built in % modifiers applied to it. Perhaps from the old unsheathed weapon movement slow or something similar. >> it isnt simply base[U/s] + base[U/s]*(major 0.3+minor 0.15......etc).
It is as though base == 100U/s but the movement speed buff of 15% applies to ~90U/s( which basically becomes 13.5% of 100) and is divided by 2 for 6.75% which brings us close enough to your 6.5% speed buff derived from the time in the vid.

My arguments are all relative tho, and dont care about the absolute values.>> my arguments dont care if 15% is actually 15%. Unless you are claiming that 15% used to actually be 15% back in the day and now 15% is only 6.5% We would have seen a difference in speed when summerset hit though, which wasn't the case.

Well, first off it's 9.46 vs 9.11 seconds, which is 5.9%.

And that's my point. Numerous posts in this thread are adding up all the various percentage sources to increase speed and acting like they translate to directly. They don't.

So if we can stop pretending like the percentages are indicative of real world speed, then we can stop overreacting to this.

None of us have access to the code base and they don't comment on things like that.

Yes, these things make you faster. That is why people like me sacrifice to use them. However they do not make you The Flash.

And most importantly: They do not break the game. If you are missing attacks, then welcome to the club. Attacks miss. Skills don't fire. We're playing an old laggy game. It's going to happen. So what do you do if all speed sources are removed and it keeps happening? Find something else to blame than the obvious?

I also have zero sympathy for someone who chooses not to be fast being mad they can't chase someone who is. What game are we trying to play here?

MincMincMinc

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

@DrSlaughtr What is the purpose in your speed comparison though? It just shows the player with minor goes faster. If you want us to back calculate how movement speed % apply we could do that. From your vid we can take the values:

(note that your stopwatch in the vid has milliseconds only count to 60. I did check that your stopwatch counts seconds correctly as far as i can tell.)
Base: ~9.75s
Minor(15%): ~9.16s

The difference in time is about 6.5% but where does this come from? My guess is that current base speed is different from what the % speed applies to. Or base speed is not actually base speed and has built in % modifiers applied to it. Perhaps from the old unsheathed weapon movement slow or something similar. >> it isnt simply base[U/s] + base[U/s]*(major 0.3+minor 0.15......etc).
It is as though base == 100U/s but the movement speed buff of 15% applies to ~90U/s( which basically becomes 13.5% of 100) and is divided by 2 for 6.75% which brings us close enough to your 6.5% speed buff derived from the time in the vid.

My arguments are all relative tho, and dont care about the absolute values.>> my arguments dont care if 15% is actually 15%. Unless you are claiming that 15% used to actually be 15% back in the day and now 15% is only 6.5% We would have seen a difference in speed when summerset hit though, which wasn't the case.

Well, first off it's 9.46 vs 9.11 seconds, which is 5.9%.

And that's my point. Numerous posts in this thread are adding up all the various percentage sources to increase speed and acting like they translate to directly. They don't.

So if we can stop pretending like the percentages are indicative of real world speed, then we can stop overreacting to this.

None of us have access to the code base and they don't comment on things like that.

Yes, these things make you faster. That is why people like me sacrifice to use them. However they do not make you The Flash.

And most importantly: They do not break the game. If you are missing attacks, then welcome to the club. Attacks miss. Skills don't fire. We're playing an old laggy game. It's going to happen. So what do you do if all speed sources are removed and it keeps happening? Find something else to blame than the obvious?

I also have zero sympathy for someone who chooses not to be fast being mad they can't chase someone who is. What game are we trying to play here?

It is not 9.46 vs 9.11 ............ Like I said your timer incorrectly only counts to 0.60 each second instead of 0.99. So the comparison for % should be converted to actual time of 9.75=9.46 vs 9.18=9.11 (I originally chose 9.16 for this since I did the math in my head as 9.10)

Again whether the percentage == the actual rate increase doesn't matter for any of the arguments covered in the thread.

I also have zero sympathy for someone complaining about not building for something and then wondering why their build cant do said thing. Much like people not running streak counters and forever complaining about streak.

Still no arguments why average walking speed needs to be so close to cap. Even in the OP proposed speed you would be faster than pre summerset, with the ability to still build for cap if you need to walk that fast. Speed is relative and everyone builds it, no reason it needs to be so out of balance with all of the other systems in the game that wont power creep with it.

DrSlaughtr

MincMincMinc wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

@DrSlaughtr What is the purpose in your speed comparison though? It just shows the player with minor goes faster. If you want us to back calculate how movement speed % apply we could do that. From your vid we can take the values:

(note that your stopwatch in the vid has milliseconds only count to 60. I did check that your stopwatch counts seconds correctly as far as i can tell.)
Base: ~9.75s
Minor(15%): ~9.16s

The difference in time is about 6.5% but where does this come from? My guess is that current base speed is different from what the % speed applies to. Or base speed is not actually base speed and has built in % modifiers applied to it. Perhaps from the old unsheathed weapon movement slow or something similar. >> it isnt simply base[U/s] + base[U/s]*(major 0.3+minor 0.15......etc).
It is as though base == 100U/s but the movement speed buff of 15% applies to ~90U/s( which basically becomes 13.5% of 100) and is divided by 2 for 6.75% which brings us close enough to your 6.5% speed buff derived from the time in the vid.

My arguments are all relative tho, and dont care about the absolute values.>> my arguments dont care if 15% is actually 15%. Unless you are claiming that 15% used to actually be 15% back in the day and now 15% is only 6.5% We would have seen a difference in speed when summerset hit though, which wasn't the case.

Well, first off it's 9.46 vs 9.11 seconds, which is 5.9%.

And that's my point. Numerous posts in this thread are adding up all the various percentage sources to increase speed and acting like they translate to directly. They don't.

So if we can stop pretending like the percentages are indicative of real world speed, then we can stop overreacting to this.

None of us have access to the code base and they don't comment on things like that.

Yes, these things make you faster. That is why people like me sacrifice to use them. However they do not make you The Flash.

And most importantly: They do not break the game. If you are missing attacks, then welcome to the club. Attacks miss. Skills don't fire. We're playing an old laggy game. It's going to happen. So what do you do if all speed sources are removed and it keeps happening? Find something else to blame than the obvious?

I also have zero sympathy for someone who chooses not to be fast being mad they can't chase someone who is. What game are we trying to play here?

It is not 9.46 vs 9.11 ............ Like I said your timer incorrectly only counts to 0.60 each second instead of 0.99. So the comparison for % should be converted to actual time of 9.75=9.46 vs 9.18=9.11 (I originally chose 9.16 for this since I did the math in my head as 9.10)

Again whether the percentage == the actual rate increase doesn't matter for any of the arguments covered in the thread.

I also have zero sympathy for someone complaining about not building for something and then wondering why their build cant do said thing. Much like people not running streak counters and forever complaining about streak.

Still no arguments why average walking speed needs to be so close to cap. Even in the OP proposed speed you would be faster than pre summerset, with the ability to still build for cap if you need to walk that fast. Speed is relative and everyone builds it, no reason it needs to be so out of balance with all of the other systems in the game that wont power creep with it.

It isn't out of balance. ZOS programmed the balance as is. They created swift. They created wild hunt. They added in the various speed CP. That's the balance. You don't like the balance.

You also didn't do your math correctly.

After Effects calculated milliseconds weird, you are correct on that. But you didn't break it down correctly.

AE assumed 60 milliseconds per second. So each second has 60 milliseconds. That means 9.11 seconds equals 9x60+11=551.

9x60+46=586.

586-551=35.

35/586= .0597%.

But it's semantics. Even your math didn't approach 15%. And ultimately that isn't your argument. That was an argument for the previous posts.

You say min-maxing speed is imbalanced because you don't like it. I say that isn't a valid reason to kick me in the metaphorical balls to slow me down so you can have a higher chance of hitting me.

And you should consider the negative outcome of making people slower.

MincMincMinc

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

@DrSlaughtr What is the purpose in your speed comparison though? It just shows the player with minor goes faster. If you want us to back calculate how movement speed % apply we could do that. From your vid we can take the values:

(note that your stopwatch in the vid has milliseconds only count to 60. I did check that your stopwatch counts seconds correctly as far as i can tell.)
Base: ~9.75s
Minor(15%): ~9.16s

The difference in time is about 6.5% but where does this come from? My guess is that current base speed is different from what the % speed applies to. Or base speed is not actually base speed and has built in % modifiers applied to it. Perhaps from the old unsheathed weapon movement slow or something similar. >> it isnt simply base[U/s] + base[U/s]*(major 0.3+minor 0.15......etc).
It is as though base == 100U/s but the movement speed buff of 15% applies to ~90U/s( which basically becomes 13.5% of 100) and is divided by 2 for 6.75% which brings us close enough to your 6.5% speed buff derived from the time in the vid.

My arguments are all relative tho, and dont care about the absolute values.>> my arguments dont care if 15% is actually 15%. Unless you are claiming that 15% used to actually be 15% back in the day and now 15% is only 6.5% We would have seen a difference in speed when summerset hit though, which wasn't the case.

Well, first off it's 9.46 vs 9.11 seconds, which is 5.9%.

And that's my point. Numerous posts in this thread are adding up all the various percentage sources to increase speed and acting like they translate to directly. They don't.

So if we can stop pretending like the percentages are indicative of real world speed, then we can stop overreacting to this.

None of us have access to the code base and they don't comment on things like that.

Yes, these things make you faster. That is why people like me sacrifice to use them. However they do not make you The Flash.

And most importantly: They do not break the game. If you are missing attacks, then welcome to the club. Attacks miss. Skills don't fire. We're playing an old laggy game. It's going to happen. So what do you do if all speed sources are removed and it keeps happening? Find something else to blame than the obvious?

I also have zero sympathy for someone who chooses not to be fast being mad they can't chase someone who is. What game are we trying to play here?

It is not 9.46 vs 9.11 ............ Like I said your timer incorrectly only counts to 0.60 each second instead of 0.99. So the comparison for % should be converted to actual time of 9.75=9.46 vs 9.18=9.11 (I originally chose 9.16 for this since I did the math in my head as 9.10)

Again whether the percentage == the actual rate increase doesn't matter for any of the arguments covered in the thread.

I also have zero sympathy for someone complaining about not building for something and then wondering why their build cant do said thing. Much like people not running streak counters and forever complaining about streak.

Still no arguments why average walking speed needs to be so close to cap. Even in the OP proposed speed you would be faster than pre summerset, with the ability to still build for cap if you need to walk that fast. Speed is relative and everyone builds it, no reason it needs to be so out of balance with all of the other systems in the game that wont power creep with it.

It isn't out of balance. ZOS programmed the balance as is. They created swift. They created wild hunt. They added in the various speed CP. That's the balance. You don't like the balance.

You also didn't do your math correctly.

After Effects calculated milliseconds weird, you are correct on that. But you didn't break it down correctly.

AE assumed 60 milliseconds per second. So each second has 60 milliseconds. That means 9.11 seconds equals 9x60+11=551.

9x60+46=586.

586-551=35.

35/586= .0597%.

But it's semantics. Even your math didn't approach 15%. And ultimately that isn't your argument. That was an argument for the previous posts.

You say min-maxing speed is imbalanced because you don't like it. I say that isn't a valid reason to kick me in the metaphorical balls to slow me down so you can have a higher chance of hitting me.

And you should consider the negative outcome of making people slower.

Actually the 9x60 isnt needed. the 9 seconds are counting correctly strange enough. So it is 9+ 11(100/60). Its like the timer is still in hours and minutes, sped up to treat hours as minutes and minutes as milliseconds. It doesnt reach 15% either way, but it seems like the buff is applied to the old base 90% and divided by 2 at some point.

I actually really abuse speed. Been playing a speed based stamsorc since 2015 using wrecking/dizzy through good metas and bad. So has StaticWave above. Both of us believe the balance is not correct. There are two biases from stamsorc players losing their identity over the years.

1. Streak becomes stronger against slower enemies when running away...... Counter argument is that gap closers already counter streak distance, sustain, damage. (currently people dont use gap closers because they can walk faster)
2. Minor expedition is a joke now compared to everyone else who uses RATs and maintains major. The old 10% was huge back against 90% movement players. Now one swift or cp basically counters it. I would argue to make a more interesting kiss curse speed buff on hurricane for class identity. (~25% speed that decreases as hurricane increases in damage)

As a melee player, sure closing gaps would get harder, but that's the point of gap closers. Currently gap closers can entirely be ignored on builds. Sprint is nearly in same boat and can be ignored if you want. So long as you believe a healthier game has a balance that lets you ignore core mechanics and counterplay options I dont think we will ever agree. My OP numbers were written to numerically standardize where the walking movement speed threshold SHOULD sit, such that it isn't crippling while still allowing gap closers and sprint to become relevant mechanics again. You can still build for speed..... in fact you will end up relatively faster compared to now once players realize they dont need speed with my root/snare counterplay consistency concepts.(which nobody at all seems to be opposed to)

Can you record another vid of you using major expedition and major+minor on that same character running that same spot so we can compare if major 30% (should be 12%) is double the bonus as the minor 15% (6% that we calculated)? Who knows maybe instead of the expected 12% major ends up being 15% compared to minors actual 6%. Then is major+minor the expected 6%+12%?

necro_the_crafter

Its bad if you can negate a core combat mechanic like sprint altogether, I cant see why people argue against that.

By games own logic you should not be able to move fast AND have a stamina regen on AND be able to perform other actions.

Just Imagine if mitigation could be abused to the point when you simply can forget about block, slot sithis gaze and have passive mitigation at least at the value that is half of what tanks can have while blocking. Insane right? Or, lets say, you could dodge cost free and be able to perform other actions - would it be game breaking? If it come at a cost of 1 cp, 3 jewelry glyphs and 2 skills, will it be too much of an investmet to justify it being in the game?

Somehow its okay with movement speed. I dont see how its okay. Sprint is a core combat mechanic, and you have yours stam regen disabled and being stripped of ability to perform other actions for a reason. Wanna move fast - pay the sprinting tax.

Tommy_The_Gun

If movement speed would had to be adressed, then it would need to happen throughout every set, cp, passive, buff, sprint, skill and ultimate. Everything in the game, would need to be looked at to make sure there are no things that would drastically outperform others. Yes, this also includes gap closers and rapid displacement skills like teleports, blinks etc.

MincMincMinc

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

If movement speed would had to be adressed, then it would need to happen throughout every set, cp, passive, buff, sprint, skill and ultimate. Everything in the game, would need to be looked at to make sure there are no things that would drastically outperform others. Yes, this also includes gap closers and rapid displacement skills like teleports, blinks etc.

Most gap closers and skills in general havent had drastic changes to their range despite the average walk/strafe movement speed going from 90%(130%max) to ~150%(200%max). Unless you think gap closers are an equivalent choice to speed now adays, but I would not agree. The vast majority of people choose speed instead.

Adjusting the handful of speed buff integers is far easier than adjusting/balancing ranges for every single set and skill in the game to match todays increased speed threshold. Again, speed isnt easily adjusted for in power creep since it should have a threshold that shouldn't change. The physics engine isn't changing, nor is the map sizes, or character capsule sizes. Not only are there these physics reasons prevalent to not allow power creep, but all of the gameplay reasons discussed before in the thread.

---

Let me ask this to those who do not think speed power creeping is an issue. What do you base your thresholds on? I based my OP around sprint speed and sprint speed buff availability, aiming for an average player speed of 130%±30% with sprint speed being 40%+50% potential buffs. To me, this seems to be a reasonable and logically thought out threshold. Can you reason why walking(run) speed should be more available and potent than sprint speed buffs?

Maybe a visual would help? Mark on here where you think different systems should span (snares, run, sprint) Assume some overlap in systems.

Current builds are closer to:
0..............40sn..........................100%
100........................run.........spr-200%(cap)

For me a healthy system would be
0(rooted).............40%(snare max).....................100%
100.....................130%run...............160% sprint................250% cap

I absolutely hate blanket fixes, because of the sheer laziness design wise. However, a 150% run speed cap and a 250% sprint speed cap would be better than the 200% total cap and achieve a similar result to my proposed changes. I would much rather the actual values be thought through though and not added to the game willy nilly.

Turtle_Bot

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Its bad if you can negate a core combat mechanic like sprint altogether, I cant see why people argue against that.

By games own logic you should not be able to move fast AND have a stamina regen on AND be able to perform other actions.

Just Imagine if mitigation could be abused to the point when you simply can forget about block, slot sithis gaze and have passive mitigation at least at the value that is half of what tanks can have while blocking. Insane right? Or, lets say, you could dodge cost free and be able to perform other actions - would it be game breaking? If it come at a cost of 1 cp, 3 jewelry glyphs and 2 skills, will it be too much of an investmet to justify it being in the game?

Somehow its okay with movement speed. I dont see how its okay. Sprint is a core combat mechanic, and you have yours stam regen disabled and being stripped of ability to perform other actions for a reason. Wanna move fast - pay the sprinting tax.

Exactly this. But also want to add, dodge rolls are another core combat mechanic that the current passive/baseline speed messes with a lot more than players realise.

Dodge rolls are the intended way of "dodging" attacks (outside of super niche and honestly, bad 5 piece sets). Thanks to power creep of passive/baseline speed and the associated exacerbation of positional desync issues such baseline speed enables, you don't even really need to roll all that much anymore because nothing can reliably land on you if you move fast enough (even targeted attacks fail to land, especially if they have a cast time/delay).

Dodge rolling is a core combat mechanic of this game, that is balanced around its stamina cost that ramps up exponentially if used in quick succession for a reason. If you want to dodge attacks - pay the (ramping) dodge roll cost.

Zabagad

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Its bad if you can negate a core combat mechanic like sprint altogether, I cant see why people argue against that.

By games own logic you should not be able to move fast AND have a stamina regen on AND be able to perform other actions.

Just Imagine if mitigation could be abused to the point when you simply can forget about block, slot sithis gaze and have passive mitigation at least at the value that is half of what tanks can have while blocking. Insane right? Or, lets say, you could dodge cost free and be able to perform other actions - would it be game breaking? If it come at a cost of 1 cp, 3 jewelry glyphs and 2 skills, will it be too much of an investmet to justify it being in the game?

Somehow its okay with movement speed. I dont see how its okay. Sprint is a core combat mechanic, and you have yours stam regen disabled and being stripped of ability to perform other actions for a reason. Wanna move fast - pay the sprinting tax.

Yes - this is the real issue with the max speed without sprinting!



The speed percentage - 6% of ... or whatever from the Dr. is only a big derail of the problem.
But - just to give better numbers to derail - there are addons which show you your current speed and there is no need to try to get the seconds and distance from vids

I use bandits - if you go to "meters" you can enable "speed" and get numbers which are nicely calculated with the x/y coordinates. If you find a mostly flat way - I use it in cyrodiil yellow base (in noCP to exclude CP effects).
So these are the values I got (I would say they are accurate by +-3 )

670 Base speed in "run" (I forget to walk but I guess nobody does that anyway )
For example I got for base+minE+MaxE+Sprint 1270 or base+minE = 770
1350 max Speed with "wild hunt and buffs
So the single values were:
+100 for minor expedition (100/670 ~= 15%)
+200 for major expedition
+300 for sprint (I guess I had some middle armor equiped - but I'm to lazy for this derailing to check if and how many)

So again - I guess all this math was just a big derail from the real issue.
And again that issue was perfectly described by the necro...

MincMincMinc

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Its bad if you can negate a core combat mechanic like sprint altogether, I cant see why people argue against that.

By games own logic you should not be able to move fast AND have a stamina regen on AND be able to perform other actions.

Just Imagine if mitigation could be abused to the point when you simply can forget about block, slot sithis gaze and have passive mitigation at least at the value that is half of what tanks can have while blocking. Insane right? Or, lets say, you could dodge cost free and be able to perform other actions - would it be game breaking? If it come at a cost of 1 cp, 3 jewelry glyphs and 2 skills, will it be too much of an investmet to justify it being in the game?

Somehow its okay with movement speed. I dont see how its okay. Sprint is a core combat mechanic, and you have yours stam regen disabled and being stripped of ability to perform other actions for a reason. Wanna move fast - pay the sprinting tax.

Exactly this. But also want to add, dodge rolls are another core combat mechanic that the current passive/baseline speed messes with a lot more than players realise.

Dodge rolls are the intended way of "dodging" attacks (outside of super niche and honestly, bad 5 piece sets). Thanks to power creep of passive/baseline speed and the associated exacerbation of positional desync issues such baseline speed enables, you don't even really need to roll all that much anymore because nothing can reliably land on you if you move fast enough (even targeted attacks fail to land, especially if they have a cast time/delay).

Dodge rolling is a core combat mechanic of this game, that is balanced around its stamina cost that ramps up exponentially if used in quick succession for a reason. If you want to dodge attacks - pay the (ramping) dodge roll cost.

Also good points to add as I was really only focused on comparing movement sources and not just the blatant abuse of 100% damage mit from being able to strafe 10m/s away from 5m skills. (of which I 100% abuse)

Funny to also say that the snare/root counterplays are being ignored by both roll dodge and speed. Why slot a costly short duration skill when you could just overall have enough speed to not bother or roll dodge instead. Again its a clear sign that something is not functioning properly when players ignore the core mechanic and compensate in other unintended ways.

Turtle_Bot

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Its bad if you can negate a core combat mechanic like sprint altogether, I cant see why people argue against that.

By games own logic you should not be able to move fast AND have a stamina regen on AND be able to perform other actions.

Just Imagine if mitigation could be abused to the point when you simply can forget about block, slot sithis gaze and have passive mitigation at least at the value that is half of what tanks can have while blocking. Insane right? Or, lets say, you could dodge cost free and be able to perform other actions - would it be game breaking? If it come at a cost of 1 cp, 3 jewelry glyphs and 2 skills, will it be too much of an investmet to justify it being in the game?

Somehow its okay with movement speed. I dont see how its okay. Sprint is a core combat mechanic, and you have yours stam regen disabled and being stripped of ability to perform other actions for a reason. Wanna move fast - pay the sprinting tax.

Exactly this. But also want to add, dodge rolls are another core combat mechanic that the current passive/baseline speed messes with a lot more than players realise.

Dodge rolls are the intended way of "dodging" attacks (outside of super niche and honestly, bad 5 piece sets). Thanks to power creep of passive/baseline speed and the associated exacerbation of positional desync issues such baseline speed enables, you don't even really need to roll all that much anymore because nothing can reliably land on you if you move fast enough (even targeted attacks fail to land, especially if they have a cast time/delay).

Dodge rolling is a core combat mechanic of this game, that is balanced around its stamina cost that ramps up exponentially if used in quick succession for a reason. If you want to dodge attacks - pay the (ramping) dodge roll cost.

Also good points to add as I was really only focused on comparing movement sources and not just the blatant abuse of 100% damage mit from being able to strafe 10m/s away from 5m skills. (of which I 100% abuse)

Funny to also say that the snare/root counterplays are being ignored by both roll dodge and speed. Why slot a costly short duration skill when you could just overall have enough speed to not bother or roll dodge instead. Again its a clear sign that something is not functioning properly when players ignore the core mechanic and compensate in other unintended ways.

Yep, I have never felt as untouchable defensively in this game as when slotting wildhunt for that baseline speed to just naturally avoid incoming attacks as I move around, especially back when we were in a more melee dominated meta than we currently are (part of the reason as well that I prefer flurry as the spammable when running melee DW since that ability seems to have target tracking built in so it still follows and reliably hits the target even if they are moving fast).

MincMincMinc

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Its bad if you can negate a core combat mechanic like sprint altogether, I cant see why people argue against that.

By games own logic you should not be able to move fast AND have a stamina regen on AND be able to perform other actions.

Just Imagine if mitigation could be abused to the point when you simply can forget about block, slot sithis gaze and have passive mitigation at least at the value that is half of what tanks can have while blocking. Insane right? Or, lets say, you could dodge cost free and be able to perform other actions - would it be game breaking? If it come at a cost of 1 cp, 3 jewelry glyphs and 2 skills, will it be too much of an investmet to justify it being in the game?

Somehow its okay with movement speed. I dont see how its okay. Sprint is a core combat mechanic, and you have yours stam regen disabled and being stripped of ability to perform other actions for a reason. Wanna move fast - pay the sprinting tax.

Exactly this. But also want to add, dodge rolls are another core combat mechanic that the current passive/baseline speed messes with a lot more than players realise.

Dodge rolls are the intended way of "dodging" attacks (outside of super niche and honestly, bad 5 piece sets). Thanks to power creep of passive/baseline speed and the associated exacerbation of positional desync issues such baseline speed enables, you don't even really need to roll all that much anymore because nothing can reliably land on you if you move fast enough (even targeted attacks fail to land, especially if they have a cast time/delay).

Dodge rolling is a core combat mechanic of this game, that is balanced around its stamina cost that ramps up exponentially if used in quick succession for a reason. If you want to dodge attacks - pay the (ramping) dodge roll cost.

Also good points to add as I was really only focused on comparing movement sources and not just the blatant abuse of 100% damage mit from being able to strafe 10m/s away from 5m skills. (of which I 100% abuse)

Funny to also say that the snare/root counterplays are being ignored by both roll dodge and speed. Why slot a costly short duration skill when you could just overall have enough speed to not bother or roll dodge instead. Again its a clear sign that something is not functioning properly when players ignore the core mechanic and compensate in other unintended ways.

Yep, I have never felt as untouchable defensively in this game as when slotting wildhunt for that baseline speed to just naturally avoid incoming attacks as I move around, especially back when we were in a more melee dominated meta than we currently are (part of the reason as well that I prefer flurry as the spammable when running melee DW since that ability seems to have target tracking built in so it still follows and reliably hits the target even if they are moving fast).

Wild hunt is a noob trap. Unless you really like the out of combat speed.....if you can get out of combat. 15% is basically 2 swift or infused 200wd(unless you want to quantify bloodthirsty for your build). IMO you shouldnt trade a 5 piece, monster, or arena for 200wd. Even markyn gives 200wd+2300resists (==400wd equivalent vs the 200wd equivalent of wild hunt).

Not to mention you could just mount out of combat........or dont need the out of combat speed boost since it is easy to walk near speed cap without wild hunt anyways.