Today, I spent time and gold acquiring a Deadly Inferno Staff to replace my Deadly Lightning Staff because I mostly do DOT dmg and Inferno staves are supposed to increase DOT dmg according to the Ancient Knowledge passive. What I immediately noticed is that the DOT dmg portion of my abilities all showed lower tooltip dmg with my Inferno staff equipped. Nothing else changed in my build. I asked guild members if they saw the same and at least 1 other person confirmed what I was seeing. Below are screenshots of DOT dmg tooltips.

Lightning Staff:


Inferno Staff:


The OP in this post claims DOT being stronger with Inferno staff, but this differs from my own testing. I also tested on dummies and confirmed that for some reason my Lightning staff yields more DOT dmg than Inferno.

My original post is here, but for some reason a ZOD mod wants to consolidate the issue in this post which actually differs from what I am reporting. I am not reporting what OP is reporting, but the only similarity is that it seems Ancient Knowledge passive is not working correctly.

TheNeckerCube wrote: »

I am not reporting what OP is reporting, but the only similarity is that it seems Ancient Knowledge passive is not working correctly.

But a quick test shows the damage bonuses are working correctly.

Bugged tooltips do not prove there is an issue with the actual damage.

Please provide further details on your setup and what you are seeing for your actual damage, as a test of AK alone seems to show no problem with that.

TheNeckerCube wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

With AK the lightning staff offers 12% more damage on the direct hit, while the inferno staff offers 12% more damage on the DoT.

In my testing this is not true. I am going to retest and hopefully can share visual results.

Thanks! Please also include details about your setup, as I'm doing mine very bare-bones to show the effects of AK in isolation. In isolation, AK works as stated.

Combining things into a full setup will typically produce bonuses of magnitudes other than 12%, as AK's is additive with many "damage done" bonuses in game.

For example, using Deadly Strike already means you will not see a relative 12% increase to DoT damage with an inferno, as Deadly is additive with the 12% from AK. With just Deadly, you go from 15% extra on DoTs to 27% extra with an inferno (with AK), resulting in a relative gain of only 10.4%.

If you have Deadly Strike and both Thaumaturge and Deadly Aim (ETA: For Vampire's Bane's DoT or any other single-target one), you're going to go from 27% to 39% with AK, which is a relative increase of less than 9.5%.

Major and Minor Slayer are additive too, as are Major and Minor Berserk.

That's why it's important to have the full build info so we can look at what's happening in your case specifically.

It makes no sense to me why Damage Done Bonuses would ever appear in tooltips. The Damage is not Done, there's no target, Damage Done relates to the amount of damage mitigated by the opponents armor. (660 to 1% Player, 364 to 1% Boss). So how is this calculated before Pen vs Armor is even calculable?

I remember once upon a time they did not? And then circa 2021 Ancient Knowledge started buffing tooltips, and Malacath followed shortly.

TheNeckerCube wrote: »

I waited in line to get into Cyro, so no time to test now. In regard to the main issue, the only thing I changed today was swap my Deadly Lightning Staff with a Deadly Inferno Staff, everything else is the same (i.e trait, quality, CP, etc.). This way, I can see/experience the impact of my one change and what I noticed was lower DOT dmg in tooltips with the Deadly Inferno Staff equipped.

Another user in my guild confirmed my suspicion and testing wasn't too complex (i.e. literally went up to a dummy, cast Degeneration, observe DPS, do this a few times, then swap to other staff, and repeat test). The main thing looked for is on average higher dmg/dps from the Inferno staff since it increases DOT dmg. What I saw in my initial testing was that my (Deadly) Lightning staff yields higher dmg/dps vs. my (Deadly) Inferno staff which is consistent with tooltips.

Perhaps there is an issue with the Deadly Set?

I'll provide more specific numbers when I have more time to test, but there isn't anything else that should be discussed (i.e. no need to mention buffs, CP, etc.). The only thing that changed was the staff type and what to look for is higher DOT dmg from an inferno staff.

What I do need to mention is that pure DOT abilities like Solar Barrage does get buffed in the tooltip by an Inferno Staff and so does Wall of Elements. It appears that abilities with a Direct DMG + DOT component is what is affected by the issue I am reporting. Since I am not reporting what the OP is reporting. I don't care about the percent increase in dmg. I want to see that Inferno staff actually buffs my DOTs and it literally does not do what it says per Ancient Knowledge.

AK continues to work as intended for me (tested again today, with Degen this time since you mentioned it in your post), both with and without Deadly, so I am curious about those specific skills you're seeing an issue with when you get the chance.

For skills with a direct damage and a DoT component, which you mentioned you were particularly seeing an issue with, your overall damage will not change the same way with every skill. The inferno staff buffs the DoT part; the lightning buffs the direct. The ratio between the two components determines the difference in impact between an inferno and a lightning staff.

With a pure DoT like Degen or Elemental Blockade, inferno should outperform lightning, all else being equal. There are exceptions, though, in the form of channeled DoTs: Beam, both on Templar and on Arc, benefits from both staves equally.

For mixed direct/DoT skills heavily weighted towards the DoT side, like Vampire's Bane (theoretically about 82.3% DoT vs 17.7% direct, without Enduring Rays), or even Unstable Wall (72.1% DoT from the 11 ticks, 27.9% direct from the explosion), an inferno staff will be expected to outperform lightning, although the expected gap gets narrower the more balanced the two components are (either by design or by cutting off DoT ticks early).

For mixed direct/DoT skills that are weighted towards direct damage, like Blazing Spear, a lightning staff will be expected, on average, to outperform the inferno staff. In Spear's case, the lightning staff is boosting a theoretical 56% of the total damage of the skill, while inferno would boost only 44%, provided the skill is allowed to run its total duration and get all 10 of its DoT ticks in. Not even wearing Deadly Strike changes that expectation, although it does ever so slightly narrow the relative gap between staves.

TheNeckerCube wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

TheNeckerCube wrote: »

I waited in line to get into Cyro, so no time to test now. In regard to the main issue, the only thing I changed today was swap my Deadly Lightning Staff with a Deadly Inferno Staff, everything else is the same (i.e trait, quality, CP, etc.). This way, I can see/experience the impact of my one change and what I noticed was lower DOT dmg in tooltips with the Deadly Inferno Staff equipped.

Another user in my guild confirmed my suspicion and testing wasn't too complex (i.e. literally went up to a dummy, cast Degeneration, observe DPS, do this a few times, then swap to other staff, and repeat test). The main thing looked for is on average higher dmg/dps from the Inferno staff since it increases DOT dmg. What I saw in my initial testing was that my (Deadly) Lightning staff yields higher dmg/dps vs. my (Deadly) Inferno staff which is consistent with tooltips.

Perhaps there is an issue with the Deadly Set?

I'll provide more specific numbers when I have more time to test, but there isn't anything else that should be discussed (i.e. no need to mention buffs, CP, etc.). The only thing that changed was the staff type and what to look for is higher DOT dmg from an inferno staff.

What I do need to mention is that pure DOT abilities like Solar Barrage does get buffed in the tooltip by an Inferno Staff and so does Wall of Elements. It appears that abilities with a Direct DMG + DOT component is what is affected by the issue I am reporting. Since I am not reporting what the OP is reporting. I don't care about the percent increase in dmg. I want to see that Inferno staff actually buffs my DOTs and it literally does not do what it says per Ancient Knowledge.

AK continues to work as intended for me (tested again today, with Degen this time since you mentioned it in your post), both with and without Deadly, so I am curious about those specific skills you're seeing an issue with when you get the chance.

For skills with a direct damage and a DoT component, which you mentioned you were particularly seeing an issue with, your overall damage will not change the same way with every skill. The inferno staff buffs the DoT part; the lightning buffs the direct. The ratio between the two components determines the difference in impact between an inferno and a lightning staff.

With a pure DoT like Degen or Elemental Blockade, inferno should outperform lightning, all else being equal. There are exceptions, though, in the form of channeled DoTs: Beam, both on Templar and on Arc, benefits from both staves equally.

For mixed direct/DoT skills heavily weighted towards the DoT side, like Vampire's Bane (theoretically about 82.3% DoT vs 17.7% direct, without Enduring Rays), or even Unstable Wall (72.1% DoT from the 11 ticks, 27.9% direct from the explosion), an inferno staff will be expected to outperform lightning, although the expected gap gets narrower the more balanced the two components are (either by design or by cutting off DoT ticks early).

For mixed direct/DoT skills that are weighted towards direct damage, like Blazing Spear, a lightning staff will be expected, on average, to outperform the inferno staff. In Spear's case, the lightning staff is boosting a theoretical 56% of the total damage of the skill, while inferno would boost only 44%, provided the skill is allowed to run its total duration and get all 10 of its DoT ticks in. Not even wearing Deadly Strike changes that expectation, although it does ever so slightly narrow the relative gap between staves.

First and foremost, thank you Virtus for patiently taking time to explain everything in great detail. I just want to let you know I really appreciate all the information you've shared.

I did my own testing using Degen today and I'm satisfied knowing more DOT damage is done on average with an Inferno staff vs. Lightning. I'll digress on all that I've said thus far, but I'm still disappointed with incorrect in game tooltips after equipping an Inferno staff with Ancient Knowledge enabled.

See y'all in game!

Thank you for the update and reply!

Good luck, and have fun

Urzigurumash wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

It makes no sense to me why Damage Done Bonuses would ever appear in tooltips. The Damage is not Done, there's no target, Damage Done relates to the amount of damage mitigated by the opponents armor. (660 to 1% Player, 364 to 1% Boss). So how is this calculated before Pen vs Armor is even calculable?

I remember once upon a time they did not? And then circa 2021 Ancient Knowledge started buffing tooltips, and Malacath followed shortly.

No, Damage Done modifiers are just percentage increases to your outgoing damage. They are calculated independently of pen/armor. The two things end up being multiplied.

If I have a tooltip of 100 damage and then go from 0% damage done bonus to +12% damage done, my tooltip should show 112.

Since the 100 and 112 are both calculated multiplicatively against the target’s armor mitigation, the same percentage of that tooltip damage passes through to the target regardless.

For example, if the target has 25% armor mitigation and no other source of mitigation, then I will do 75 damage without the 12% damage done bonus and 84 with it. The change in tooltip accurately reflects the relative increase provided by the damage done bonus: 112/100 = 84/75

Thank you also for this reply, nobody has ever replied to me about this question. So in the equation provided at Part One of this thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online

The first Parantheses do not accurately reflect Tooltips / outgoing damage before Crit ? The Damage Done Parantheses should be inside of the First Parantheses if it were to logically reflect Tooltips?

This is what I see for the equation in Part One:

Average Damage done = (Skill Coefficient for Maximum Magicka*Maximum Magicka + Skill Coefficient for Spell Damage*SpellDamage+Flat Damage Amps)*(1 + Spell Critical Chance * Spell Critical Damage)*(1 + Damage Done )* (Spell Armor Mitigation)*(1 + Damage Taken)*(1+Execute Bonus)*(1+Bloodthirsty Bonus)

The Damage Done part seems fine to me there, as far as I can tell. Although there is now a second category for "Damage Done against Monsters" that needs to be included too*.

The first parentheses includes "Flat Damage Amps," by which we mean things like Deadly Bash (+500 damage to bash) or Bashing Brutality (+120 damage to bash). These are flat numbers, not percentages, so they need to be added in with the first set of parentheses.

Buffs in the "Damage Done" category are always percentage buffs: Major and Minor Berserk, Major and Minor Slayer, the slotted blue CP that increase damage with certain types of damage or under certain conditions (Exploiter, Thaumaturge, Deadly Aim, Biting Aura, Master at Arms - Weapons Expert too, iirc), and set bonuses like Deadly Strike's fifth piece (+15% damage done to DoTs and channels).

For example, let's say I am looking at buffs for Beam on a Templar (so single target). If I have Minor Slayer, Minor Berserk, Deadly Strike, Thaumaturge, and Deadly Aim, all those add together first, then that's multiplied against the rest of the damage. In that case my Beam is being buffed by 5% + 5% + 15% + 6% + 6%, respectively, for a total of 37% in this Damage Done category.

1 + 0.37 = 1.37, which is what should be multiplied against the rest of the equation.

(*As of my most recent testing, the Velothi Amulet and Ansuul's Torment were additive with each other but then multiplicative with everything else, forming an independent "Damage Done against Monsters" category.)


The question of what should or shouldn't be included in tooltips is certainly worth considering.

I do think Damage Done should be included, which is the way it usually works now, for two reasons:

1) The reason I explained in my prior post: it applies the same way to all your outgoing damage done regardless of the target, so it's a good indication when you compare tooltips of how much each Damage Done buff is helping you.

perhaps even more importantly, though:

2) Because this functionality is actually the most reliable way in game to know which damage components are direct vs. DoT and single target vs. AoE, as the descriptions in tooltips aren't always clear and may even be misleading. Slotting and unslotting Thaumaturge will tell you what's a DoT; use Master at Arms for direct (anything not a DoT should be direct, but always good to check). Use Deadly Aim to check for single target damage components and Biting Aura to check for AoEs. We can make educated guesses as to what is coded as what, but we may not be correct. Skills are not clearly labeled, and some get changed. For example, both Jabs/Sweeps and Flurry underwent a change from a "hybrid" of direct and DoT to pure direct damage back at the end of 2019. (They were not hybrid in the sense that they had distinct components in the tooltips, as many other skills do; rather, they had a single damage figure that comprised an initial direct hit followed by several DoT hits, all wrapped up into one number.) That change was documented in the Update 24 patch notes for Jabs, but it was not documented for Flurry, even though tracking posts on the forums and elsewhere on the web shows that Flurry got the same treatment at very likely the same time. This is also why (and when) Deadly Strike was changed from buffing only DoTs to buffing both DoTs and channels, in another undocumented change.

Meanwhile, armor mitigation, Damage Taken, execute bonuses, and Bloodthirsty are all dependent on the condition of the target, which as you rightly pointed out above isn't known from the point of view of the tooltip. I agree with you that those aren't properly able to be calculated in a tooltip. That's also why buffs coded as target-specific debuffs are not reflected in our personal stats (e.g. Force of Nature).

Urzigurumash wrote: »

That makes sense, thanks for a great explanation of Damage Done!

Are there cases where White Text is buffed by Thaumaturge and Red Text by Master at Arms? One should know if it's Direct or DoT simply by the text color no?

Any time!

Text color is meant to be an indicator, yes, but it is not always reliable, especially when things are changed. Damage Done stars show how the game actually treats the skill components in practice. As a result, it can also highlight bugs with both UI elements (like combat text) and actual performance (like buffs).

To continue with the example of Flurry, the undocumented change there to pure direct damage resulted in several bugs:

-The color of its damage text was not updated, creating even more confusion about what was intended. I can't recall if this was ever fixed.

-Flurry actually benefitted from Master at Arms AND Thaumaturge (in addition to Deadly Aim) for quite some time, a bug that was fixed and then recurred (and has since been re-fixed).

Urzigurumash wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

That makes sense, thanks for a great explanation of Damage Done!

Are there cases where White Text is buffed by Thaumaturge and Red Text by Master at Arms? One should know if it's Direct or DoT simply by the text color no?

Any time!

Text color is meant to be an indicator, yes, but it is not always reliable, especially when things are changed. Damage Done stars show how the game actually treats the skill components in practice. As a result, it can also highlight bugs with both UI elements (like combat text) and actual performance (like buffs).

To continue with the example of Flurry, the undocumented change there to pure direct damage resulted in several bugs:

-The color of its damage text was not updated, creating even more confusion about what was intended. I can't recall if this was ever fixed.

-Flurry actually benefitted from Master at Arms AND Thaumaturge (in addition to Deadly Aim) for quite some time, a bug that was fixed and then recurred (and has since been re-fixed).

Well not to get too philosophical here, but are you sure the Damage Done Stars are the definitive indicator? Are you sure everything buffed by the AoE Star is for sure mitigated by Evasion, everything buffed by both the Single Target and Direct Stars is for sure dodgeable unless stated otherwise, etc? I would assume the Damage Done Stars are as likely to be "wrong" as the Combat Text, or no?

Good questions.

When anything can be bugged at any time, especially in a game this big, I am not sure I can really believe that anything is a truly definitive indicator. Even official announcements are not always consistent with the in-game experience. During one resource event we were told explicitly that the event bonus would improve drops of furnishing mats, but resource events don't improve drops of Heartwood; we were also told repeatedly that resource events don't not improve drops of crafting mats from animals or mobs, but they clearly do. For this Undaunted event we were told that our tickets would go poof if we were at cap when looting our first final dungeon boss of the day, but if you go spend some and then complete another dungeon you'll still get that day's tickets. When they conflict, is the "definitive" thing the official announcement, or the way it actually works in game? Within the game, if CP and combat text color and proc sets don't agree, which is definitive?

I agree with the question; I can only offer some thoughts towards an answer.

I do take CP buffs as a more reliable indicator than something purely visual like combat text because the devs have an established pattern of prioritizing things that affect combat over things that are purely UI. So if a skill is buffed by Master at Arms but not Thaumaturge, even though its color is the color of a DoT, I'm going to go with the indicator that actually affects combat there. In general, something like CP will have been changed as a priority over color coding. (Ideally everything's in sync, but of course things happen, or don't, as the case may be.)

It's also clearly its own indicator, in the sense that if a CP star buffs a skill component, that component is being treated as that category of damage regardless of intent.

I also think CP buffs are in general more reliable as indicators than individual set interactions because each set interaction has to be individually coded, so it is more likely that one of those many interactions is missed (as Azureblight was with Jabs from 2019-2023) than that the CP buffs are "backwards" (Jabs was properly buffed by Master at Arms but not Thaumaturge during that time). Now if all the proc sets in game treat a skill component in a certain way that contradicts the CP that buffs it, then I'm going to know something is wrong, even if it isn't indisputably clear what.

And it certainly is possible for there to be bugs with the CP buffs, as demonstrated by Flurry double-dipping on Master at Arms and Thaumaturge simultaneously. But again, that was a clear indicator itself that something was wrong. Since the CP were at odds, we looked at sets: the fact that Flurry had stopped interacting with DoT-based procs (including being taken off the list of skills that its own ability-altering set buffed! XD) and had started interacting with direct damage-based ones was a very good indication that it was Thaumaturge that was bugged, as ZOS confirmed in the relevant patch notes when they fixed it. (Both times.)

I can't actually recall a situation where CP buffs were fully "backwards" while color coding and/or proc sets were correct. (Then again, I'm human, CP 1.0 predates me, and something may have arisen and been fixed relatively quickly that I missed.)

And to your point about the dodging and Evasion: If you do find a skill buffed by both DA and MaA that isn't dodgeable, and you can't find a reference to the skill being meant to be undodgeable, then I do think you should ask if that's intended or a bug! If you find a skill buffed by Biting Aura that is not mitigated by Evasion, that would also be a bug. I don't know if that's even possible, since I haven't seen the coding, but if you do find it, I would encourage you to report it via an in-game /bug report and/or here on the forums.