Dracane wrote: »

I am going to claim something very controversial now, as it pertains to Sorcerers escaping execute range. Hardened Ward is not the issue, but Vampire is. Undeath.

It's unbelievable how easy this makes survivingl and escaping execute range on any class. Sorc spams ward, while others hold block and heal. It's the same outcome, and it's all because of Undeath being so overtuned and mandatory.
I refuse to play Vampire, and I am not escaping close death situations like others seem to.

Many people will have to relearn pvp if one day this clutch gets nerfed or reworked. I hope that day comes with the next update.

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because isn't it true that Stamsorc has consistently been very strong for many years, while Magsorc spent most of these years quite stunted? I also don't think it was absolute bottom barrel; but also not much more. I hope you don't wish to return to that; paradisic though it might sound for Stamsorcs to be uncontested.

It's true that stamsorc has been stronger than magsorc, but not for the reasons you think. Stamsorc has been strong primarily because of proc sets, not because its toolkit is stronger. Magsorc's toolkit is stronger, but the class was limited by the sets it could use.

For example, a stamsorc could be in mDW/Vate/Maarselok/WoF, which are 4 procs, and crutch on Pale Order for healing and put out so much pressure and offensive healing that it's able to survive by doing damage. Meanwhile, a magsorc could only run the generic max mag sets or Rally/Wretched, which is still strong for a stat build, but not aids like a 4-proc stamsorc.

Nerf all the proc sets, and you don't see any stamsorcs playing. That's basically what happens everytime stamsorc is meta. You have 1-2 cringe proc builds and all the FOTM sorcs use them until they get nerfed and those players disappear. Now it's the same for magsorc. Every single sorc is stacking max mag and using a shield lol. Even stamsorc is going max mag now instead of the usual max stam/HP. I'm one of the few remaining stamsorcs who still refrain from stacking max mag.

I think magsorc is going to be in a good place if they give it a few key fixes:

- Built in Major Savagery/Prophecy on Bound Armor
- An extra HoT instead of burst heal on Ward
- Built in Major Breach on Curse

That's it. By giving the class Major Breach on Curse, they get to free up 1 bar slot for Vigor/Hurricane, which will allow it to run better monster sets. With Scribbing, it can also use Major Vitality on Wield Soul instead of Major Breach, which will increase its defense even further too. All these indirect changes will happen as a trickle-down effect if we just give it only 1-2 key buffs.

Well would we look at that. Now your character name suddenly regained all its merit. Your purity sways me. One's hardly a Stamsorc when they stack magicka.
I saw the feedback regarding Major Breach on Curse. It would depend how it's implemented. If it only applies major breach upon explosion, keep it and invest the power budget into something better. If it applies Major Breach upon cast, it's a grand convenience.

To say one more thing about Hardened Ward though, I am surprised to see that one patch cycle has gone by without ZoS touching it. I imagine if their statistics showed it was as heavily overperforming as some say, they would have probably done something. Instead, they even give Sorc a small overall buff with Blood Magic. It certainly gets me thinking.

If by next patch they don't change how the heal works, it's probably set in stone and shows that ZoS has achieved what they set out to.

Or it could just be that they don’t have the resources to address this for the time being. There’s probably a schedule of updates and fixes that have to be strictly followed. It took a long time for them to address Corrosive Armor, so most likely we won’t see any changes in the foreseeable future.

Number tweaks take up ressources? Well what do I know.

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because isn't it true that Stamsorc has consistently been very strong for many years, while Magsorc spent most of these years quite stunted? I also don't think it was absolute bottom barrel; but also not much more. I hope you don't wish to return to that; paradisic though it might sound for Stamsorcs to be uncontested.

It's true that stamsorc has been stronger than magsorc, but not for the reasons you think. Stamsorc has been strong primarily because of proc sets, not because its toolkit is stronger. Magsorc's toolkit is stronger, but the class was limited by the sets it could use.

For example, a stamsorc could be in mDW/Vate/Maarselok/WoF, which are 4 procs, and crutch on Pale Order for healing and put out so much pressure and offensive healing that it's able to survive by doing damage. Meanwhile, a magsorc could only run the generic max mag sets or Rally/Wretched, which is still strong for a stat build, but not aids like a 4-proc stamsorc.

Nerf all the proc sets, and you don't see any stamsorcs playing. That's basically what happens everytime stamsorc is meta. You have 1-2 cringe proc builds and all the FOTM sorcs use them until they get nerfed and those players disappear. Now it's the same for magsorc. Every single sorc is stacking max mag and using a shield lol. Even stamsorc is going max mag now instead of the usual max stam/HP. I'm one of the few remaining stamsorcs who still refrain from stacking max mag.

I think magsorc is going to be in a good place if they give it a few key fixes:

- Built in Major Savagery/Prophecy on Bound Armor
- An extra HoT instead of burst heal on Ward
- Built in Major Breach on Curse

That's it. By giving the class Major Breach on Curse, they get to free up 1 bar slot for Vigor/Hurricane, which will allow it to run better monster sets. With Scribbing, it can also use Major Vitality on Wield Soul instead of Major Breach, which will increase its defense even further too. All these indirect changes will happen as a trickle-down effect if we just give it only 1-2 key buffs.

Well would we look at that. Now your character name suddenly regained all its merit. Your purity sways me. One's hardly a Stamsorc when they stack magicka.
I saw the feedback regarding Major Breach on Curse. It would depend how it's implemented. If it only applies major breach upon explosion, keep it and invest the power budget into something better. If it applies Major Breach upon cast, it's a grand convenience.

To say one more thing about Hardened Ward though, I am surprised to see that one patch cycle has gone by without ZoS touching it. I imagine if their statistics showed it was as heavily overperforming as some say, they would have probably done something. Instead, they even give Sorc a small overall buff with Blood Magic. It certainly gets me thinking.

If by next patch they don't change how the heal works, it's probably set in stone and shows that ZoS has achieved what they set out to.

Or it could just be that they don’t have the resources to address this for the time being. There’s probably a schedule of updates and fixes that have to be strictly followed. It took a long time for them to address Corrosive Armor, so most likely we won’t see any changes in the foreseeable future.

Number tweaks take up ressources? Well what do I know.

Corrosive Armor took 2 years to be nerfed. Do you know what they nerfed? They removed the ability to regen ultimate while a player is under Corrosive effect.

Concealed Weapon was buffed in U35 to give 10% unnamed damage done when leaving stealth. Do you know how long it took to turn that unnamed buffed into Major Berserk? 4 patches. They finally changed that in U39. Then in U41 they finally removed Major Berserk and give only Concealed Weapon a 10% dmg buff. From U35 to U41, or 6 patches, to nerf Concealed Weapon to a state where it's more balanced than its U35 version.

All they had to do was tweak some numbers for Corrosive Armor and Concealed Weapon, like you said, and it took 6 patches or more than a year and a half to do so. During those 6 patches there have been plenty of threads asking for NB nerfs. Does that mean ZOS intended for the change to go through during those patches? No, they probably were focused on other stuff and pushed back the changes until a later date. Same thing applies to Ward. Don't ask me, ask ZOS what their update plan is lol

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

It's all about group play at the end of the day.

Ward messes up 1v1, 1vX, Xv1 target focus, smallscale GvG, smallscale GvX, zerg surfing, pugging... everything but ball groups. Undeath being op isn't controversial, PvPers have wanted it nerfed for years, it's a problem independent of Ward.

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I am going to claim something very controversial now, as it pertains to Sorcerers escaping execute range. Hardened Ward is not the issue, but Vampire is. Undeath.

It's unbelievable how easy this makes survivingl and escaping execute range on any class. Sorc spams ward, while others hold block and heal. It's the same outcome, and it's all because of Undeath being so overtuned and mandatory.
I refuse to play Vampire, and I am not escaping close death situations like others seem to.

Many people will have to relearn pvp if one day this clutch gets nerfed or reworked. I hope that day comes with the next update.

Undeath is the biggest defensive crutch in this game currently. The ward change has definitely added sorcs to the list of classes with burst heals that are exposing the undeath issue, but undeath has always been an issue, ever since they changed it to start scaling from 90% health instead of the old 50% health threshold.

At least when it scaled from 50%, if you got a target to 50-60% health and landed a good burst combo that would almost always finish them, now it's impossible because undeath is almost always applying mitigation.

That last line is completely true too, and probably also why they won't touch it unfortunately, even though it needs to be nerfed... The outcry from mediocre players who crutch on that passive for defense in PvP would be deafening.

I'd do something like:
Rework undeath such that:
- below 75% health it provides minor protection (or just a unique 5% mitigation)
- below 50% health it provides major protection (or just a unique 10% mitigation)
- below 25% health it provides both protection buffs (or just a unique 15% mitigation)

I would also reduce the penalty to health recovery that is applied through battle spirit by half (make it 25% or 30% instead of its current 55%) that way there is an alternative to undeath and undeath won't be the default "option". Still won't be able to combine both, since the vampire's penalty to health recovery would still apply making it useless if going a stage 3 vampire for undeath.

Honestly, health recovery on Sorc solved pretty much most of the healing problems I had back when the value wasn't affected by battle spirit. Even at a 2k, it was still equivalent to a permanent 1k HPS. They could slightly nerf Undeath then buffed health recovery to a degree that it would allow non-vamp players to have a competitive choice. Either you're going with Undeath for 20% mitigation, or you're getting 2-3k hp regen every 2s.

I do not miss the health recovery stacking days. That was ve

RomanRex wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

It's all about group play at the end of the day.

Ward messes up 1v1, 1vX, Xv1 target focus, smallscale GvG, smallscale GvX, zerg surfing, pugging... everything but ball groups. Undeath being op isn't controversial, PvPers have wanted it nerfed for years, it's a problem independent of Ward.

You left off the next sentence.

“It's all about group play at the end of the day. Both pve and pvp.”

This is a PvE thread and the positive impact this has had on PvE group play is very important.

New Hardened Ward changes help Sorc Tanks while Vibrant Shroud helps Sorc Healers. Both roles in PvE group situations were a bit lacking before these recent class adjustments.

As much as the self-convenience has improved, I do not think it did anything to change the status quo for tanks and healers. Vibrant Shards is just a worse version of Combat Prayer and has no good reason of use over it. My bar space as a healer is already too cluttered, especially if I am expected to deliver some DPS as well. Vibrant Shards needs a bigger aoe. I would rather use Blessing of Protection if I needed an aoe burst heal.

And most Sorc tanks will likely still have to use pets in on way or another. It will take time until they try to experiment more.
What Sorc tanks and healers are lacking is group utility/buffs. And neither Vibrant Shroud nor Daedric Refuge have added anything in that sense. Minor Vitality has no purpose in pve healing, because healing on a power level is good enough.