Ward Changes are a huge QoL improvement in PvE!

RomanRex

StaticWave wrote: »

Most solo PvE content is easy. vMA and vVH definitely don’t need a burst heal under the Ward. A case can be made for IA, but the bosses in higher stages can just 1 shot you and that burst heal isn’t going to save you anyways if you get one shotted.

While I have my “Flawless Conquer” achievement and sticker book filled up from arenas, many PvE’ers would certainly disagree with you that all PvE content is “easy”.

I still get killed by one-shots. This change isn’t strong enough to prevent that. I still roll dodge them. In my experience, higher level marauders can have multiple quick attacks which require a reliable, spamable burst heal to make it through.

As I said above half the heal up front with the rest over the duration of the shield would be a good comprise that wouldn’t totally destroy its application in difficult situations like I am describing.

Lazarus_Rising

Its just insane value for pve. You get a shield and a heal at the same time.

The weakness of a sorc is the reliability of the shield and this is a core class feature.

I dont see the point why there should be two skills in one. Its another step to make all classes function almost the same.


For player who want to use out of class skills they need to use the other skill lines. Necromancer is a good example here. You do not have access to major sorcery /prophecy so you have to use degeneration from the mage guild or a potion. Same should be applied to any other class also sorc.

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Most solo PvE content is easy. vMA and vVH definitely don’t need a burst heal under the Ward. A case can be made for IA, but the bosses in higher stages can just 1 shot you and that burst heal isn’t going to save you anyways if you get one shotted.

While I have my “Flawless Conquer” achievement and sticker book filled up from arenas, many PvE’ers would certainly disagree with you that all PvE content is “easy”.

I still get killed by one-shots. This change isn’t strong enough to prevent that. I still roll dodge them. In my experience, higher level marauders can have multiple quick attacks which require a reliable, spamable burst heal to make it through.

As I said above half the heal up front with the rest over the duration of the shield would be a good comprise that wouldn’t totally destroy its application in difficult situations like I am describing.

I said most content, not all content.


No class is immune to one shots. If you want a burst heal that badly, you can slot Vibrant Shroud, which is going to have competitive healing power to other single target burst heals next patch. There is no need to have a burst heal underneath the Ward anymore as it’s clearly overperforming in PvP. Change that burst heal into a HoT and we will have more balance than what we have now

xylena_lazarow

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

And of course the millisecond sorcs have a burst heal that neither has a cast time nor requiring a pet that eats up two slots and dies a lot, it's suddenly a problem.

You have a burst heal. Vibrant Shroud. It is not a problem. Use it.

There is zero need for a massive shield to have a massive burst heal underneath in PvE. Even generic combinations like Harness Magicka + Resolving Vigor have gotten plenty of casual PvE'ers through solo content for years.

As this is a PvE thread, please continue PvP related discussion using the link below. I'm not sure whether this got buried, or the players ITT are trying to avoid the fact that Ward outperforms Polar Wind for self survival in PvP.

Warden Polar Wind vs Sorc Hardened Ward in PvP analysis

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here

Dracane

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

And of course the millisecond sorcs have a burst heal that neither has a cast time nor requiring a pet that eats up two slots and dies a lot, it's suddenly a problem.

You have a burst heal. Vibrant Shroud. It is not a problem. Use it.

There is zero need for a massive shield to have a massive burst heal underneath in PvE. Even generic combinations like Harness Magicka + Resolving Vigor have gotten plenty of casual PvE'ers through solo content for years.

As this is a PvE thread, please continue PvP related discussion using the link below. I'm not sure whether this got buried, or the players ITT are trying to avoid the fact that Ward outperforms Polar Wind for self survival in PvP.

Warden Polar Wind vs Sorc Hardened Ward in PvP analysis

Other classes are fine with their 1 major class survival skill. Why does Sorcerer have to be an exception and require 2 skills to survive? Makes no sense to me.

Vibrant Shards is a dreadful heal, with too low a modifier. Don't even get me started how annoying it is trying to heal allies with it in pve. It's not worth slotting, and should not be required. Sorcerer should also only need their ward to navigate content. Bar space is too limited in ESO as is, and the whole point of the change is to allow more freedom to a class that has historically been very pidgeonholed into specific, cluttered bars.

xylena_lazarow

Dracane wrote: »

Other classes are fine with their 1 major class survival skill.

Vibrant Shroud

Dracane

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Other classes are fine with their 1 major class survival skill.

Vibrant Shroud

Terrible skill. Too weak a heal compared to all other class heals. Also not in line with the class identity at all. Surge and Ward is what Sorc is about.

I'd rather have Vibrant Shroud be a full support skill that only heals others, but with better an aoe than it currently is.

xylena_lazarow

This is at 55k max mag in a PvE zone, IIRC it's supposed to be in line with things like Templar BoL. Ward is 8413 under these conditions. People asked for a burst heal and were given one, if it needs to be buffed then we should ask for it to be buffed. The hp scaling Ward seems fine in PvE and PvP, the max mag stacking Ward heal is the main problem.

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Other classes are fine with their 1 major class survival skill.

Vibrant Shroud

Terrible skill. Too weak a heal compared to all other class heals. Also not in line with the class identity at all. Surge and Ward is what Sorc is about.

I'd rather have Vibrant Shroud be a full support skill that only heals others, but with better an aoe than it currently is.

Other class heals only heal 1 target. Vibrant Shroud heals everyone within the cone and also give them Minor Vitality.

Besides, aren't we talking about SOLO PvE? Blood Magic is going to proc off Vibrant Shroud next patch, and at 30k HP it's a decent 3k tooltip. Add that to a 12k Vibrant Shroud tooltip and you have a 15k+ burst heal which is maybe 1-2k less than other classes, but with the benefit of AoE Major Maim and Minor Vitality, and also being a AoE heal.

Dracane

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is at 55k max mag in a PvE zone, IIRC it's supposed to be in line with things like Templar BoL. Ward is 8413 under these conditions. People asked for a burst heal and were given one, if it needs to be buffed then we should ask for it to be buffed. The hp scaling Ward seems fine in PvE and PvP, the max mag stacking Ward heal is the main problem.

Why would you build for max magicka in pve? Nobody does that, because it's bad for damage. This is not a good look for your arguments.

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Other classes are fine with their 1 major class survival skill.

Vibrant Shroud

Terrible skill. Too weak a heal compared to all other class heals. Also not in line with the class identity at all. Surge and Ward is what Sorc is about.

I'd rather have Vibrant Shroud be a full support skill that only heals others, but with better an aoe than it currently is.

Other class heals only heal 1 target. Vibrant Shroud heals everyone within the cone and also give them Minor Vitality.

Besides, aren't we talking about SOLO PvE? Blood Magic is going to proc off Vibrant Shroud next patch, and at 30k HP it's a decent 3k tooltip. Add that to a 12k Vibrant Shroud tooltip and you have a 15k+ burst heal which is maybe 1-2k less than other classes, but with the benefit of AoE Major Maim and Minor Vitality, and also being a AoE heal.

True, yes. Blood Magic is a good change for selfish purposes.
Vibrant Shroud is still uncalled for and underpowered. It's an unnecessary addition to the kit as it stands now. You will know the pitfalls of the skill if you play a tank or healer in pve and try to help your team with it. The aoe is too small to work under stressful conditions like dungeon hardmodes once people start to panic. As soon as people don't nicely align themselves in 1 spot, the skill becomes a waste of magicka.

It's a pale shadow compared to other, targeted burst heals (and the Matriarch). Aoe burst heals only work when they have a generous AoE like Warden shrooms. A 20 meter field I think.

As for self healing, Hardened Ward is the much better candidate, because it combines your class identity skill with a heal. Which is why it was the right addition to the class. Vibrant Shroud's only purpose is to support your team. It should absolutely not serve as your best arsenal for a self heal.

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Other classes are fine with their 1 major class survival skill.

Vibrant Shroud

Terrible skill. Too weak a heal compared to all other class heals. Also not in line with the class identity at all. Surge and Ward is what Sorc is about.

I'd rather have Vibrant Shroud be a full support skill that only heals others, but with better an aoe than it currently is.

Other class heals only heal 1 target. Vibrant Shroud heals everyone within the cone and also give them Minor Vitality.

Besides, aren't we talking about SOLO PvE? Blood Magic is going to proc off Vibrant Shroud next patch, and at 30k HP it's a decent 3k tooltip. Add that to a 12k Vibrant Shroud tooltip and you have a 15k+ burst heal which is maybe 1-2k less than other classes, but with the benefit of AoE Major Maim and Minor Vitality, and also being a AoE heal.

True, yes. Blood Magic is a good change for selfish purposes.

Isn't this entire thread about solo PvE? Ward is also a selfish shield tho lol..

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

Vibrant Shroud is still uncalled for and underpowered. It's an unnecessary addition to the kit as it stands now. You will know the pitfalls of the skill if you play a tank or healer in pve and try to help your team with it. The aoe is too small to work under stressful conditions like dungeon hardmodes once people start to panic. As soon as people don't nicely align themselves in 1 spot, the skill becomes a waste of magicka.

It's a pale shadow compared to other, targeted burst heals (and the Matriarch). Aoe burst heals only work when they have a generous AoE like Warden shrooms. A 20 meter field I think.

As for self healing, Hardened Ward is the much better candidate, because it combines your class identity skill with a heal. Which is why it was the right addition to the class. Vibrant Shroud's only purpose is to support your team. It should absolutely not serve as your best arsenal for a self heal.

Vibrant Shroud with reworked Blood Magic will save you 1 bar slot while giving competitive self-healing. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. You can literally log on the PTS using your same build and see the huge difference.

Hardened Ward is currently broken for PvP, and while it may be fine for PvE, it's still broken for PvP. It makes total sense for PvPers to call for nerfs to this ability. I mean take NB for example. The class is still dogwater in PvE but extremely OP in PvP, and people are bombarding it with nerf threads. Why should Sorc be any different?

I've already stated my solution. The burst heal needs to go away and be replaced with a HoT to make the game more balanced for PvP.

Dracane

Maybe for you the game is all about solo play and duels and nothing else.
I care to support my group before all else, and Vibrant Shroud in this context is not a slot liberator, but a waste of a slot. Too unreliable where it matters. And in the context of running both Ward and Vibrant Shroud together (which I think is what you 2 dearly wish for Magsorc) is also the opposite of freeing up bar space.

It's only bad for the class, and bad for fun as well. We already arrived at the conclusion that Ward's heal could be shifted towards a HoT. Why do you yet continue? You got your approval.

Dracane

@StaticWave A question perhaps.
I am still reading through your thread, and isn't it true that Stamsorc survives on Vigor+Surge alone?
Why then should Magsorc be required to need Surge+Ward+Vibrant Shroud(Or Vigor I guess) instead of just Ward+Surge?

The way I see it, most classes survive by merely pressing one button to survive, underlayed with commonly a HoT.
It might seem a little consequence, since that remains true for Magsorc whether Ward remains a burst heal or becomes a HoT. It would have the same outcome in my eyes. Yet still, it feels as though you wish for Stamsorc to remain free and easy, but for Magsorc to be burdened and disabled as they have been for so long.

Because isn't it true that Stamsorc has consistently been very strong for many years, while Magsorc spent most of these years quite stunted? I also don't think it was absolute bottom barrel; but also not much more. I hope you don't wish to return to that; paradisic though it might sound for Stamsorcs to be uncontested.

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

Maybe for you the game is all about solo play and duels and nothing else.
I care to support my group before all else, and Vibrant Shroud in this context is not a slot liberator, but a waste of a slot. Too unreliable where it matters. And in the context of running both Ward and Vibrant Shroud together (which I think is what you 2 dearly wish for Magsorc) is also the opposite of freeing up bar space.

It's only bad for the class, and bad for fun as well. We already arrived at the conclusion that Ward's heal could be shifted towards a HoT. Why do you yet continue? You got your approval.

I've done group PvP for the majority of my playtime. Now I do BG primarily and duel in between waiting for BG queues. Vibrant Shroud is pretty good as a group heal, but it still lacks the self healing I need for my playstyle (brawling). Next patch with reworked Blood Magic I will switch to Vibrant Shroud 100%

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

@StaticWave A question perhaps.
I am still reading through your thread, and isn't it true that Stamsorc survives on Vigor+Surge alone?
Why then should Magsorc be required to need Surge+Ward+Vibrant Shroud(Or Vigor I guess) instead of just Ward+Surge?

The way I see it, most classes survive by merely pressing one button to survive, underlayed with commonly a HoT.
It might seem a little consequence, since that remains true for Magsorc whether Ward remains a burst heal or becomes a HoT. It would have the same outcome in my eyes. Yet still, it feels as though you wish for Stamsorc to remain free and easy, but for Magsorc to be burdened and disabled as they have been for so long.

Stamsorc can survive on just Vigor and Surge if there aren't too many DoTs or free damage around. During the DoT proc meta stamsorc was horrible. You could hide behind a wall and still have 6+ DoTs ticking on you. You needed a burst heal for that. Now there's less DoT procs around so it's more manageable, but you still need to build fairly tanky to only survive off just Vigor and Surge.

Sorc's main form of defense has always been movement speed and mobility. For example, look at this short BG clip where I and @IncultaWolf jumped into the enemy team to get some quick kills and escaped. I was in a 35k shield stamsorc and IncultaWolf was on a NB. IncultaWolf cloaked away from the fight, whereas I abused my speed and Streak with added tankiness from Ward and Vigor to escape:

https://youtu.be/hdGzYGO2yss

When I walked up the stairs I even got Incapped too before Streaking away. I can guarantee you other classes would never be able to do what Sorc did.

Magsorc could achieve the same effect if they slotted Vigor and Hurricane. Sure you will have to use Crushing Weapon for Major Breach, but that's a small sacrifice to make for the benefits you gain (increased mobility and healing).

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

Because isn't it true that Stamsorc has consistently been very strong for many years, while Magsorc spent most of these years quite stunted? I also don't think it was absolute bottom barrel; but also not much more. I hope you don't wish to return to that; paradisic though it might sound for Stamsorcs to be uncontested.

It's true that stamsorc has been stronger than magsorc, but not for the reasons you think. Stamsorc has been strong primarily because of proc sets, not because its toolkit is stronger. Magsorc's toolkit is stronger, but the class was limited by the sets it could use.

For example, a stamsorc could be in mDW/Vate/Maarselok/WoF, which are 4 procs, and crutch on Pale Order for healing and put out so much pressure and offensive healing that it's able to survive by doing damage. Meanwhile, a magsorc could only run the generic max mag sets or Rally/Wretched, which is still strong for a stat build, but not aids like a 4-proc stamsorc.

Nerf all the proc sets, and you don't see any stamsorcs playing. That's basically what happens everytime stamsorc is meta. You have 1-2 cringe proc builds and all the FOTM sorcs use them until they get nerfed and those players disappear. Now it's the same for magsorc. Every single sorc is stacking max mag and using a shield lol. Even stamsorc is going max mag now instead of the usual max stam/HP. I'm one of the few remaining stamsorcs who still refrain from stacking max mag.

I think magsorc is going to be in a good place if they give it a few key fixes:

- Built in Major Savagery/Prophecy on Bound Armor
- An extra HoT instead of burst heal on Ward
- Built in Major Breach on Curse

That's it. By giving the class Major Breach on Curse, they get to free up 1 bar slot for Vigor/Hurricane, which will allow it to run better monster sets. With Scribbing, it can also use Major Vitality on Wield Soul instead of Major Breach, which will increase its defense even further too. All these indirect changes will happen as a trickle-down effect if we just give it only 1-2 key buffs.

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

@StaticWave A question perhaps.
I am still reading through your thread, and isn't it true that Stamsorc survives on Vigor+Surge alone?
Why then should Magsorc be required to need Surge+Ward+Vibrant Shroud(Or Vigor I guess) instead of just Ward+Surge?

The way I see it, most classes survive by merely pressing one button to survive, underlayed with commonly a HoT.
It might seem a little consequence, since that remains true for Magsorc whether Ward remains a burst heal or becomes a HoT. It would have the same outcome in my eyes. Yet still, it feels as though you wish for Stamsorc to remain free and easy, but for Magsorc to be burdened and disabled as they have been for so long.

Stamsorc can survive on just Vigor and Surge if there aren't too many DoTs or free damage around. During the DoT proc meta stamsorc was horrible. You could hide behind a wall and still have 6+ DoTs ticking on you. You needed a burst heal for that. Now there's less DoT procs around so it's more manageable, but you still need to build fairly tanky to only survive off just Vigor and Surge.

Sorc's main form of defense has always been movement speed and mobility. For example, look at this short BG clip where I and @IncultaWolf jumped into the enemy team to get some quick kills and escaped. I was in a 35k shield stamsorc and IncultaWolf was on a NB. IncultaWolf cloaked away from the fight, whereas I abused my speed and Streak with added tankiness from Ward and Vigor to escape:

https://youtu.be/hdGzYGO2yss

When I walked up the stairs I even got Incapped too before Streaking away. I can guarantee you other classes would never be able to do what Sorc did.

Magsorc could achieve the same effect if they slotted Vigor and Hurricane. Sure you will have to use Crushing Weapon for Major Breach, but that's a small sacrifice to make for the benefits you gain (increased mobility and healing).

Personally, I can't imagine playing without Boundless Storm. Not having that boost from Major Expedition is unplayable to me.
I still contemplate upon Hurricane, but it's been years and I am not warming up to that skill.

Either one is so important to keep on your feet or to chase; especially Nightblades. I have no idea how people deal with Mighty Chudan.

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because isn't it true that Stamsorc has consistently been very strong for many years, while Magsorc spent most of these years quite stunted? I also don't think it was absolute bottom barrel; but also not much more. I hope you don't wish to return to that; paradisic though it might sound for Stamsorcs to be uncontested.

It's true that stamsorc has been stronger than magsorc, but not for the reasons you think. Stamsorc has been strong primarily because of proc sets, not because its toolkit is stronger. Magsorc's toolkit is stronger, but the class was limited by the sets it could use.

For example, a stamsorc could be in mDW/Vate/Maarselok/WoF, which are 4 procs, and crutch on Pale Order for healing and put out so much pressure and offensive healing that it's able to survive by doing damage. Meanwhile, a magsorc could only run the generic max mag sets or Rally/Wretched, which is still strong for a stat build, but not aids like a 4-proc stamsorc.

Nerf all the proc sets, and you don't see any stamsorcs playing. That's basically what happens everytime stamsorc is meta. You have 1-2 cringe proc builds and all the FOTM sorcs use them until they get nerfed and those players disappear. Now it's the same for magsorc. Every single sorc is stacking max mag and using a shield lol. Even stamsorc is going max mag now instead of the usual max stam/HP. I'm one of the few remaining stamsorcs who still refrain from stacking max mag.

I think magsorc is going to be in a good place if they give it a few key fixes:

- Built in Major Savagery/Prophecy on Bound Armor
- An extra HoT instead of burst heal on Ward
- Built in Major Breach on Curse

That's it. By giving the class Major Breach on Curse, they get to free up 1 bar slot for Vigor/Hurricane, which will allow it to run better monster sets. With Scribbing, it can also use Major Vitality on Wield Soul instead of Major Breach, which will increase its defense even further too. All these indirect changes will happen as a trickle-down effect if we just give it only 1-2 key buffs.

Well would we look at that. Now your character name suddenly regained all its merit. Your purity sways me. One's hardly a Stamsorc when they stack magicka.
I saw the feedback regarding Major Breach on Curse. It would depend how it's implemented. If it only applies major breach upon explosion, keep it and invest the power budget into something better. If it applies Major Breach upon cast, it's a grand convenience.

To say one more thing about Hardened Ward though, I am surprised to see that one patch cycle has gone by without ZoS touching it. I imagine if their statistics showed it was as heavily overperforming as some say, they would have probably done something. Instead, they even give Sorc a small overall buff with Blood Magic. It certainly gets me thinking.

If by next patch they don't change how the heal works, it's probably set in stone and shows that ZoS has achieved what they set out to.

xylena_lazarow

Dracane wrote: »

Why would you build for max magicka in pve? Nobody does that, because it's bad for damage. This is not a good look for your arguments.

Right, the tooltip and overall power would be higher on an actual PvE DD build since it scales with your spell damage and crit stats too. Sorry, didn't have a PvE DD build handy on Sorc. If we're talking about tanks, you've got the hp scaling Ward, which I don't think is nearly as big a problem in PvP, just the mag scaling Ward heal that's insane.

And FWIW if we're regarding buffs to help casual Sorcs, plenty of them are on bad DD builds like running 55k max mag in PvE, yet Ward's mechanics reward them for building that way. Class toolkits shouldn't point players in the wrong direction like that.

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because isn't it true that Stamsorc has consistently been very strong for many years, while Magsorc spent most of these years quite stunted? I also don't think it was absolute bottom barrel; but also not much more. I hope you don't wish to return to that; paradisic though it might sound for Stamsorcs to be uncontested.

It's true that stamsorc has been stronger than magsorc, but not for the reasons you think. Stamsorc has been strong primarily because of proc sets, not because its toolkit is stronger. Magsorc's toolkit is stronger, but the class was limited by the sets it could use.

For example, a stamsorc could be in mDW/Vate/Maarselok/WoF, which are 4 procs, and crutch on Pale Order for healing and put out so much pressure and offensive healing that it's able to survive by doing damage. Meanwhile, a magsorc could only run the generic max mag sets or Rally/Wretched, which is still strong for a stat build, but not aids like a 4-proc stamsorc.

Nerf all the proc sets, and you don't see any stamsorcs playing. That's basically what happens everytime stamsorc is meta. You have 1-2 cringe proc builds and all the FOTM sorcs use them until they get nerfed and those players disappear. Now it's the same for magsorc. Every single sorc is stacking max mag and using a shield lol. Even stamsorc is going max mag now instead of the usual max stam/HP. I'm one of the few remaining stamsorcs who still refrain from stacking max mag.

I think magsorc is going to be in a good place if they give it a few key fixes:

- Built in Major Savagery/Prophecy on Bound Armor
- An extra HoT instead of burst heal on Ward
- Built in Major Breach on Curse

That's it. By giving the class Major Breach on Curse, they get to free up 1 bar slot for Vigor/Hurricane, which will allow it to run better monster sets. With Scribbing, it can also use Major Vitality on Wield Soul instead of Major Breach, which will increase its defense even further too. All these indirect changes will happen as a trickle-down effect if we just give it only 1-2 key buffs.

Well would we look at that. Now your character name suddenly regained all its merit. Your purity sways me. One's hardly a Stamsorc when they stack magicka.
I saw the feedback regarding Major Breach on Curse. It would depend how it's implemented. If it only applies major breach upon explosion, keep it and invest the power budget into something better. If it applies Major Breach upon cast, it's a grand convenience.

To say one more thing about Hardened Ward though, I am surprised to see that one patch cycle has gone by without ZoS touching it. I imagine if their statistics showed it was as heavily overperforming as some say, they would have probably done something. Instead, they even give Sorc a small overall buff with Blood Magic. It certainly gets me thinking.

If by next patch they don't change how the heal works, it's probably set in stone and shows that ZoS has achieved what they set out to.

Or it could just be that they don’t have the resources to address this for the time being. There’s probably a schedule of updates and fixes that have to be strictly followed. It took a long time for them to address Corrosive Armor, so most likely we won’t see any changes in the foreseeable future.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

It took a long time for them to address Corrosive Armor, so most likely we won’t see any changes in the foreseeable future.

We've had to complain years for some balance things to get fixed in PvP. Hopefully Ward won't be quite that bad.

Dracane

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Why would you build for max magicka in pve? Nobody does that, because it's bad for damage. This is not a good look for your arguments.

Right, the tooltip and overall power would be higher on an actual PvE DD build since it scales with your spell damage and crit stats too. Sorry, didn't have a PvE DD build handy on Sorc. If we're talking about tanks, you've got the hp scaling Ward, which I don't think is nearly as big a problem in PvP, just the mag scaling Ward heal that's insane.

And FWIW if we're regarding buffs to help casual Sorcs, plenty of them are on bad DD builds like running 55k max mag in PvE, yet Ward's mechanics reward them for building that way. Class toolkits shouldn't point players in the wrong direction like that.

This is where build diversity comes in, and why the change enabled so much build diversity for pve.
I do not run health stack on my tank, but decently high magicka (43kish) and about 34k HP. I don't permablock, because I don't enjoy that playstyle. I need this magicka because I play my tank as a semi healer and supporter. I spam a lot of heals and support skills, and also deliver some DPS since I use Catalyst.

That would be impossible or greatly slowed on an average tank build with just 17k magicka.

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because isn't it true that Stamsorc has consistently been very strong for many years, while Magsorc spent most of these years quite stunted? I also don't think it was absolute bottom barrel; but also not much more. I hope you don't wish to return to that; paradisic though it might sound for Stamsorcs to be uncontested.

It's true that stamsorc has been stronger than magsorc, but not for the reasons you think. Stamsorc has been strong primarily because of proc sets, not because its toolkit is stronger. Magsorc's toolkit is stronger, but the class was limited by the sets it could use.

For example, a stamsorc could be in mDW/Vate/Maarselok/WoF, which are 4 procs, and crutch on Pale Order for healing and put out so much pressure and offensive healing that it's able to survive by doing damage. Meanwhile, a magsorc could only run the generic max mag sets or Rally/Wretched, which is still strong for a stat build, but not aids like a 4-proc stamsorc.

Nerf all the proc sets, and you don't see any stamsorcs playing. That's basically what happens everytime stamsorc is meta. You have 1-2 cringe proc builds and all the FOTM sorcs use them until they get nerfed and those players disappear. Now it's the same for magsorc. Every single sorc is stacking max mag and using a shield lol. Even stamsorc is going max mag now instead of the usual max stam/HP. I'm one of the few remaining stamsorcs who still refrain from stacking max mag.

I think magsorc is going to be in a good place if they give it a few key fixes:

- Built in Major Savagery/Prophecy on Bound Armor
- An extra HoT instead of burst heal on Ward
- Built in Major Breach on Curse

That's it. By giving the class Major Breach on Curse, they get to free up 1 bar slot for Vigor/Hurricane, which will allow it to run better monster sets. With Scribbing, it can also use Major Vitality on Wield Soul instead of Major Breach, which will increase its defense even further too. All these indirect changes will happen as a trickle-down effect if we just give it only 1-2 key buffs.

Well would we look at that. Now your character name suddenly regained all its merit. Your purity sways me. One's hardly a Stamsorc when they stack magicka.
I saw the feedback regarding Major Breach on Curse. It would depend how it's implemented. If it only applies major breach upon explosion, keep it and invest the power budget into something better. If it applies Major Breach upon cast, it's a grand convenience.

To say one more thing about Hardened Ward though, I am surprised to see that one patch cycle has gone by without ZoS touching it. I imagine if their statistics showed it was as heavily overperforming as some say, they would have probably done something. Instead, they even give Sorc a small overall buff with Blood Magic. It certainly gets me thinking.

If by next patch they don't change how the heal works, it's probably set in stone and shows that ZoS has achieved what they set out to.

Or it could just be that they don’t have the resources to address this for the time being. There’s probably a schedule of updates and fixes that have to be strictly followed. It took a long time for them to address Corrosive Armor, so most likely we won’t see any changes in the foreseeable future.

Number tweaks take up ressources? Well what do I know.

RomanRex

StaticWave wrote: »

Isn't this entire thread about solo PvE? Ward is also a selfish shield tho lol..

Not just solo, all PvE content. This change has been a big help in 4 and 12 player content where sorcs can play tankier roles more reliably.

Dracane

RomanRex wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Isn't this entire thread about solo PvE? Ward is also a selfish shield tho lol..

Not just solo, all PvE content. This change has been a big help in 4 and 12 player content where sorcs can play tanker roles more reliably.

I would even say it matters barely for solo PvE. I don't run ward in Vateshran and Maelstrom, because it's a considerable damage loss. You want to learn to sustain on Surge alone. It only matters for Infinite Archive, and even there I prefer to duo.
It helped group play and build diversity above all else.

The unfortunate part is that this change only impacts pvp 1v1s negatively; which is the birthplace of all this rage. Dueling used to be my life back in the day, so I know why people care for it so fervently. Yet I also know that it's essentially a niche activity that should never be balanced around. It's all about group play at the end of the day. Both pve and pvp.

RomanRex

Dracane wrote: »

Yet I also know that it's essentially a niche activity that should never be balanced around. It's all about group play at the end of the day. Both pve and pvp.

I agree as do many in the PvP thread.

Most overland content can be managed on Surge for sustain, I agree.

I solo IA a lot and this change has been a huge improvement for that. Similarly, it has made a major difference for veteran 4 player content I frequent play.

Dracane

I am going to claim something very controversial now, as it pertains to Sorcerers escaping execute range. Hardened Ward is not the issue, but Vampire is. Undeath.

It's unbelievable how easy this makes survivingl and escaping execute range on any class. Sorc spams ward, while others hold block and heal. It's the same outcome, and it's all because of Undeath being so overtuned and mandatory.
I refuse to play Vampire, and I am not escaping close death situations like others seem to.

Many people will have to relearn pvp if one day this clutch gets nerfed or reworked. I hope that day comes with the next update.