Two hander & Melee

Durham · February 26

This weapon is getting left behind ind. Duel wield, staffs, and bows has been a better option for a while now. How is this going to compete in the next patch?
Currently, PVP is loaded with Bows and Staffs you might see a few two-handers a night. This weapon continues to be the slowest + and requires you to be within 7m. This makes the use of it much more risky to bow and staff. It's almost harder to use than staff or bow due to the fact you generally have to be in the thick of things. However, the damage is just not worth the risk or the ability to do damage atm. Im not saying you can't be successful Im just saying that this weapon needs some love melee in general has fallen behind in PVP.

MashmalloMan · February 26

The only part that is bad and needs an update is:

Follow Up

When you complete a fully-charged Heavy Attack, your damage done with Two Handed attacks increases by 10% for 4 seconds.

Battle Rush

Increases your Stamina Recovery by 30% for 10 seconds after killing a target.

Seeing as Follow Up just got reworked, I doubt we'll see a "Follow Up" for at least a year+. 2H heavy attacks are incredibly slow and with the heavy attack nerfs, you never want to use them anyway. The buff is also only 10% and applies to only 2H skills which would normally be alright like the other weapons, but it's too weak/complicated to make a difference.

Destro gives +3k pen for Destro attacks, but no condition whatsover.
Bow gives +25% damage for Bow attacks, but the condition of 5 light attacks happens passively just by weaving, it might as well be active 24/7.
DW gives 15% to CC'ed targets and 15% in execute for DW attacks, conditions require no added effort.

Battle Rush is alright, but I'd much rather prefer burst resources like Destruction Staves or a completely new utility effect like Bow's major expedition.

If Battle Rush stayed as a resource return tool, then it and Destruction Staves should adapt to give back hybrid resources. I stand by this comment until they release a 1H+Magic weapon that bridges the gap. Until then, thats all we have as a melee magicka user or ranged stamina user.

Vaqual · February 26

MashmalloMan wrote: »

The only part that is bad and needs an update is:

Follow Up
When you complete a fully-charged Heavy Attack, your damage done with Two Handed attacks increases by 10% for 4 seconds.

Battle Rush
Increases your Stamina Recovery by 30% for 10 seconds after killing a target.

Seeing as Follow Up just got reworked, I doubt we'll see a "Follow Up" for at least a year+. 2H heavy attacks are incredibly slow and with the heavy attack nerfs, you never want to use them anyway. The buff is also only 10% and applies to only 2H skills which would normally be alright like the other weapons, but it's too weak/complicated to make a difference.
Destro gives +3k pen for Destro attacks, but no condition whatsover.

Bow gives +25% damage for Bow attacks, but the condition of 5 light attacks happens passively just by weaving, it might as well be active 24/7.

DW gives 15% to CC'ed targets and 15% in execute for DW attacks, conditions require no added effort.

Battle Rush is alright, but I'd much rather prefer burst resources like Destruction Staves or a completely new utility effect like Bow's major expedition.

If Battle Rush stayed as a resource return tool, then it and Destruction Staves should adapt to give back hybrid resources. I stand by this comment until they release a 1H+Magic weapon that bridges the gap. Until then, thats all we have as a melee magicka user or ranged stamina user.

I just don't like "on kill" conditions at all. As content gets more challenging, stuff tends to die less frequently/reliably. The more you need those passives, the less they do for you.

sneakymitchell · February 27

The two h skill is so off putting like you got a weapon that is supposed to do good aoe but it can be easily done out with other weapons and skills.
Now only thing good is just the master weapons from dragon star, maelstrom, and others. Black rose prison is utter garbage cause how light and heavy attacks still do good aoe damage on its own.

mmtaniac · February 27

Battle rush could be 50/50 passive : 129/250 stamina regen passively and 7%/15% bonus stamina after kill. This could be better.
This system could improve this much and add some more sustain element to weapon compared to dual wield.

Second change to grant two hand weapons damage type :
Axe is bleed damage .
Mace is Sundered. Brute that destroy enemy armor.
Sword could be overcharged could be good weapon for mage fantasy builds and still be effective.

Two hand need something unique to be usefull, right now every players play dual wields.

With current hybrydization this could work nice.

No, swords as a bleed damage could be too strong. Axe was bleed always.

StaticWave · February 27

I'm using 2h solely for Executioner as people are hard to kill with Undeath, but I don't find myself heavy attacking often unless I need some stam or want to open with a fully charged heavy attack (which can do a decent amount of damage).

I'd prefer Followed Up increase your damage done with any direct damage attacks by 5% for 4 seconds. This would reward setting up the burst more, at least compared to DW, but not too strong that it becomes the new meta weapon.

mmtaniac · February 27

Follow up + jabs after it i would love this. Every % damage increase to jabby jabs could be acceptable. I know i could use destro staff for bonus damage but i love using two handed weapon. Always loved heavy armor knight with giant sword or mallet. Staff not give that fantasy. Game tell us to play as we wish but game balance not reward your fantasy. Game balance reward only few builds.

xDeusEJRx · February 27

They should increase the uptime on the Follow up passive, seeing as it ONLY applies to 2h skills, there's no reason it should be a 4 second buff with the limited amount of 2h skills people practically are using.

I could see why it was 4 seconds when it applied to all direct damage in the past, but only 2h damaging skills, should get an uptime buff.

Billium813 · February 27

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm using 2h solely for Executioner as people are hard to kill with Undeath, but I don't find myself heavy attacking often unless I need some stam or want to open with a fully charged heavy attack (which can do a decent amount of damage).

I'd prefer Followed Up increase your damage done with any direct damage attacks by 5% for 4 seconds. This would reward setting up the burst more, at least compared to DW.

I agree 100%.

One of my favorite PvP builds is Stamplar 2H and it was how I cut my teeth in PvP. Learning how to PotL, into Follow Up + Crescent Sweep was very skillful and satisfying! Then, Update 39 changed Follow Up to only buff damage to Two Handed abilities... it was a slap in the face to burst. TBH, I don't understand ZOS's hatred of burst when they allow Merciless Resolve to crit for 20k damage in PvP.

I'd like to see Follow Up and Hawk Eye designed similarly. Have them both increase Direct Damage after HAs, with a stacking mechanic to encourage tight gameplay.

ADarklore · February 28

From a PvE soloist perspective... 2H is still useful for those who want a 'rush' skill- Stampede works great and gives AoE, and Carve works great for DoT and shield, and of course Executioner for classes that don't have an execute.

The really only beneficial thing about DW is the Blade and Blunt passive.

MashmalloMan · March 1

ADarklore wrote: »

From a PvE soloist perspective... 2H is still useful for those who want a 'rush' skill- Stampede works great and gives AoE, and Carve works great for DoT and shield, and of course Executioner for classes that don't have an execute.

The really only beneficial thing about DW is the Blade and Blunt passive.

All of that can be back barred, even Executioner can be back barred with front bar sets like Pillar proccing on long 10s timers. I've already seen some parses doing this.

Blade and Blunt is identical to 2H's Heavy Weapons passive, although no Daggers for crit. Small loss.

Dual Wield Expert gives +80 weapon/spell damage to the base 1335 for 1415. 2H's by default have 1535 (200 more) without a passive, however, DW can run 2 traits like Nirn/Charged nulifying this gap a bit. Charged/Charged is going to be pretty popular next patch anyway though.

So in my opinion, follow up is mainly why it's so behind in comparison to DW as it doesn't compete with Ruffian, Slaughter, and double status effect procs because 2x enchants.

I'm willing to concede that 2H should have less passive single target dps because it has better passive aoe dps, but Battle Rush and Follow up just suck right now. Too restrictive. The best part about 2H is the abilities, so it's best used as a back bar weapon.

(PVE perspective)

Billium813 · March 1

I wouldn't say I really have any major issues with most of the 2H skills as they are designed. But there are some minor fixes and improvements I'd like to see.

Critical Charge
- Solid AOE hit + leap. Honestly, I feel like the most valuable part of the Skill IS the leap! It helps to cover the disparity between Range vs Melee so that Melee can get back into the action as quick as a Range player (who just simply has to turn and select a new target...)
- I was thinking they might give Critical Charge a guaranteed Sunder to all enemies hit, but I guess it doesn't really need it.
- I would like to see the other morph, Critical Rush, given some love. I'd say Critical Rush is targeted more for PvP, but even in PvP, Stampede is the usual go to! AOE damage + AOE dot > + single target damage * (distance / range). The amount of extra damage you get from Critical Rush doesn't out balance the utility and potential extra damage Stampede offers from AOE + DoT. I would like to see a single target DoT added to Critical Rush. Maybe a Bleed damage DoT, or even Minor Maim or Minor Mangle given the PvP alignment. Just something to make it not strictly worse then Stampede 95% of the time.
Cleave
- I think both morphs have strong identities, are well designed, and offer real choices to players depending on gameplay and style
- A more defensive design vs an offensive design. But more importantly, their strengths rely on the situation and player. The stacking design of Carve is good because it encourages maintaining stacks. I remember leaning heavy on Brawler when I was lower levels because of the large shield it can make. Even the small shield from Carve is crucial to the added survivability of being in melee range.
Reverse Slash
- My biggest issue is the competition between morphs. It's an AOE execute vs a single target execute that hits a bit harder. Idk. I just have a disdain for competing executes that just slide the scale on % increase; it just comes down to damage vs damage and how much +% does the single target have to get to to outweigh the AOE potential. It's a tight rope to walk and I'd rather one just be functionally different to the other.
- I like the Bleed damage type they changed to for Executioner. I don't think it will cause players to use it in PvE simply because the potential for AOE damage utility is so much higher... but it's ok.
Uppercut
- I really like the design for Dizzying Swing. I think the spammable design is good with the 3 (off balance, stun, snare) pieces; a better design then Unstable Core for sure. It's obviously designed for PvP and it works well there. It works well with Follow Up / Forceful / HA against Off Balance too; it WANTS you to animation cancel HAs...
- The biggest issue I have is with the timing and the animation canceling. Animation canceling HAs with Uppercut is really awkward and often glitches out after 3-4 casts. This is more of a bug then an issue with the Skill.
- The animation canceling issue becomes more of an issue with Wrecking Blow, which is trying to paint itself as the PvE morph. You want to cancel HAs thanks to the Wrecking Blow Empower buff, but the animation glitching makes it awkward and prone to an overall DPS loss. Its tough to do perfectly, making the overall effort pointless given the other options like DW. Meh.

Looking at the Passives for 2H, I don't think there are is much to improve on. I would personally like to see Follow Up reverted back to buffing Direct Damage... but I can see how that is at odds with DW and Bow. I can accept that Weapon Passives are supposed to be parasitic (*cough* Ancient Knowledge *cough*).

One issue I have with the Passives is the balance between Damage buffs vs Resources. DW has 4 Damage boosting Passives, but 2H only has 3. You essentially have Battle Rush, Forceful, and Follow Up vs Ruffian, Dual Wield Expert, and Slaughter. 2H is more centered on HA/resources and DW on status effects/execute.

IMO Battle Rush feels like the odd Passive out. 2H feels aligned with HAs, which already return resources. Battle Rush does seem comparable to Hasty Retreat for Bow, but it feels like DW is ahead a bit. I'd rather see something similar to DW Ruffian that increases damage against Off Balanced, Snared, Stunned (with Ruffian changed to Feared).

Billium813 · March 1

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

From a PvE soloist perspective... 2H is still useful for those who want a 'rush' skill- Stampede works great and gives AoE, and Carve works great for DoT and shield, and of course Executioner for classes that don't have an execute.

The really only beneficial thing about DW is the Blade and Blunt passive.

So in my opinion, follow up is mainly why it's so behind in comparison to DW as it doesn't compete with Ruffian, Slaughter, and double status effect procs because 2x enchants.

I always felt like One Handed Weapons should have their Enchantment potency/percentage chance halved (or Two Handed Weapons doubled?) But I'm not quite sure how DW enchantments proc (cause the game doesn't explain anything). Do they share the same cooldown or are independent? Is it random which enchantment procs?

Panderbander · March 1

Billium813 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

From a PvE soloist perspective... 2H is still useful for those who want a 'rush' skill- Stampede works great and gives AoE, and Carve works great for DoT and shield, and of course Executioner for classes that don't have an execute.

The really only beneficial thing about DW is the Blade and Blunt passive.

So in my opinion, follow up is mainly why it's so behind in comparison to DW as it doesn't compete with Ruffian, Slaughter, and double status effect procs because 2x enchants.

I always felt like One Handed Weapons should have their Enchantment potency/percentage chance halved (or Two Handed Weapons doubled?) But I'm not quite sure how DW enchantments proc (cause the game doesn't explain anything). Do they share the same cooldown or are independent? Is it random which enchantment procs?

DW enchants do not share a cooldown and will proc in the order that the weapons hit, typically meaning that whatever is on your main hand will proc first while light attacking as the default first light attack uses your mainhand. A DW heavy attack will proc both enchants simultaneously as both weapons hit at the same time.

warm_blanket · March 2

Yes the 2h followup passive should be less restrictive. It should probably apply to any direct dmg with your 2h equipped.

Another thing that might help is to increase the target limit of the forceful passive. Would make 2h better at its AoE niche and not affect its performance elsewhere.

Lystrad · March 2

Billium813 wrote: »

I always felt like One Handed Weapons should have their Enchantment potency/percentage chance halved (or Two Handed Weapons doubled?) But I'm not quite sure how DW enchantments proc (cause the game doesn't explain anything). Do they share the same cooldown or are independent? Is it random which enchantment procs?

So one handed weapon enchantments have half of the strength of their two handed counterparts. As for their cooldowns yes and no. Different types of enchants don't share a cooldown but two of the same type do. So as an example, if you are dual wielding and put two fire enchants on your weapons only one will proc, but if you change the second enchant to poison then both will proc. At least based on my understanding.

mmtaniac · March 2

Two hand need to be less two hand and more neutral.

Durham · March 2

I was thinking about its use in PVP. I know PvE is where the balance is landing these days. However this weapon type has really diminished in PvP. Most people run staffs and bows the most common weapon you will see is duel wield on back.

People tend to think that range should do the same damage on the range as melee. However there needs to be a risk/ reward in balance. Two hander is slow and much easier avoided. With status effect changes destro staff crushing with a free damage debuff spell lol. Why use two hander?

Balance