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Fake dd definition and classification debate
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svendf✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.
Again, what does this have to do with your argument that 1 DPS is the benchmark?
As I said, I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. Myself and players like me took control and solved this issue long ago. That is what it takes and it is not in this thread.
Anyone who is actually serious about dealing with fake tanks, healers, and low DPS should do the same and take control of their game and dungeon experience. Otherwise, they will have to deal with what comes their way. That's a fact jack.
Running away from discrimination vs fighting against discrimination.
It is not discrimination. The low dps players are not selective of the groups they join and players have the same opportunity to kick them as they do for fake tanks and fake healers. So it cannot be discrimination regardless of attempts to classify it as such.
That is taking action. That is real action with a very heavy effect that sends a loud and clear message. Players have been reminded about that for a long as threads like this existed. If players did this across the board we would not have threads like this.
Equal rights to file complaints” and “equal chance to get fired” are not justification for “same pay but extra work”, at least not IRL.
We rightfully deserve “equal pay for about same amount of work”, and too should be empowered to get “coworkers” fired easier if he/she barely do anything.
I have already pointed out we have been able to fire players from a GF group for years. It is a very simple and straightforward process.
Vote kick the player. If a group votes a player out for performance reasons then they are fired. If the group does not vote the player out they have accepted their performance as sufficient to stay in the group. That includes not even trying to vote to kick.
The problem was solved long ago. We have the power in a very fair and democratic manner.
Glad I could point this out and clear things up.
You just need to have a freind, who will join, and that vote kick is "gone". Who are you talking to ? New player´s, who don´t know, what a vote kick is ? New player´s, who don´t know the rules for a succeded vote kick ?
Come on
2 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Main neitherForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.
Again, what does this have to do with your argument that 1 DPS is the benchmark?
As I said, I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. Myself and players like me took control and solved this issue long ago. That is what it takes and it is not in this thread.
Anyone who is actually serious about dealing with fake tanks, healers, and low DPS should do the same and take control of their game and dungeon experience. Otherwise, they will have to deal with what comes their way. That's a fact jack.
Running away from discrimination vs fighting against discrimination.
It is not discrimination. The low dps players are not selective of the groups they join and players have the same opportunity to kick them as they do for fake tanks and fake healers. So it cannot be discrimination regardless of attempts to classify it as such.
That is taking action. That is real action with a very heavy effect that sends a loud and clear message. Players have been reminded about that for a long as threads like this existed. If players did this across the board we would not have threads like this.
Equal rights to file complaints” and “equal chance to get fired” are not justification for “same pay but extra work”, at least not IRL.
We rightfully deserve “equal pay for about same amount of work”, and too should be empowered to get “coworkers” fired easier if he/she barely do anything.
I have already pointed out we have been able to fire players from a GF group for years. It is a very simple and straightforward process.
Vote kick the player. If a group votes a player out for performance reasons then they are fired. If the group does not vote the player out they have accepted their performance as sufficient to stay in the group. That includes not even trying to vote to kick.
The problem was solved long ago. We have the power in a very fair and democratic manner.
Glad I could point this out and clear things up.
There is one problem with this logic: People will not vote to kick because it takes forever to get a new person in many cases, especially a tank. Its not accepting their performance, its consigning themselves to the fact that they have to choose between not finishing at all or a slim chance of finishing with said person. Ive been in this predicament countless times. Most go for the latter because the wait is upwards of 20-25 mins in some cases. I once waited 45 for a random to pop. No joke 45 mins.3 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.
Again, what does this have to do with your argument that 1 DPS is the benchmark?
As I said, I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. Myself and players like me took control and solved this issue long ago. That is what it takes and it is not in this thread.
Anyone who is actually serious about dealing with fake tanks, healers, and low DPS should do the same and take control of their game and dungeon experience. Otherwise, they will have to deal with what comes their way. That's a fact jack.
Running away from discrimination vs fighting against discrimination.
It is not discrimination. The low dps players are not selective of the groups they join and players have the same opportunity to kick them as they do for fake tanks and fake healers. So it cannot be discrimination regardless of attempts to classify it as such.
That is taking action. That is real action with a very heavy effect that sends a loud and clear message. Players have been reminded about that for a long as threads like this existed. If players did this across the board we would not have threads like this.
Equal rights to file complaints” and “equal chance to get fired” are not justification for “same pay but extra work”, at least not IRL.
We rightfully deserve “equal pay for about same amount of work”, and too should be empowered to get “coworkers” fired easier if he/she barely do anything.
I have already pointed out we have been able to fire players from a GF group for years. It is a very simple and straightforward process.
Vote kick the player. If a group votes a player out for performance reasons then they are fired. If the group does not vote the player out they have accepted their performance as sufficient to stay in the group. That includes not even trying to vote to kick.
The problem was solved long ago. We have the power in a very fair and democratic manner.
Glad I could point this out and clear things up.
There is one problem with this logic: People will not vote to kick because it takes forever to get a new person in many cases, especially a tank. Its not accepting their performance, its consigning themselves to the fact that they have to choose between not finishing at all or a slim chance of finishing with said person. Ive been in this predicament countless times. Most go for the latter because the wait is upwards of 20-25 mins in some cases. I once waited 45 for a random to pop. No joke 45 mins.
When I used the GF, before getting tired of poor performance, I never had a problem completing a dungeon because one player was vote-kicked.
Besides, what are the other options? If the person was really that bad then the group would fail or take years to clear.
To those who are concerned about vote-kicking someone, I guess the new GF is their savior. When they form a group via the upcoming system then they will have full control just as those of us that do the same thing now have.
1 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Main neitherboi_anachronism_ wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.
Again, what does this have to do with your argument that 1 DPS is the benchmark?
As I said, I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. Myself and players like me took control and solved this issue long ago. That is what it takes and it is not in this thread.
Anyone who is actually serious about dealing with fake tanks, healers, and low DPS should do the same and take control of their game and dungeon experience. Otherwise, they will have to deal with what comes their way. That's a fact jack.
Running away from discrimination vs fighting against discrimination.
It is not discrimination. The low dps players are not selective of the groups they join and players have the same opportunity to kick them as they do for fake tanks and fake healers. So it cannot be discrimination regardless of attempts to classify it as such.
That is taking action. That is real action with a very heavy effect that sends a loud and clear message. Players have been reminded about that for a long as threads like this existed. If players did this across the board we would not have threads like this.
Equal rights to file complaints” and “equal chance to get fired” are not justification for “same pay but extra work”, at least not IRL.
We rightfully deserve “equal pay for about same amount of work”, and too should be empowered to get “coworkers” fired easier if he/she barely do anything.
I have already pointed out we have been able to fire players from a GF group for years. It is a very simple and straightforward process.
Vote kick the player. If a group votes a player out for performance reasons then they are fired. If the group does not vote the player out they have accepted their performance as sufficient to stay in the group. That includes not even trying to vote to kick.
The problem was solved long ago. We have the power in a very fair and democratic manner.
Glad I could point this out and clear things up.
There is one problem with this logic: People will not vote to kick because it takes forever to get a new person in many cases, especially a tank. Its not accepting their performance, its consigning themselves to the fact that they have to choose between not finishing at all or a slim chance of finishing with said person. Ive been in this predicament countless times. Most go for the latter because the wait is upwards of 20-25 mins in some cases. I once waited 45 for a random to pop. No joke 45 mins.
When I used the GF, before getting tired of poor performance, I never had a problem completing a dungeon because one player was vote-kicked.
Besides, what are the other options? If the person was really that bad then the group would fail or take years to clear.
To those who are concerned about vote-kicking someone, I guess the new GF is their savior. When they form a group via the upcoming system then they will have full control just as those of us that do the same thing now have.
I havent had that luck unless i bring in a dd myself or if im dpsing a tank1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.
Again, what does this have to do with your argument that 1 DPS is the benchmark?
As I said, I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. Myself and players like me took control and solved this issue long ago. That is what it takes and it is not in this thread.
Anyone who is actually serious about dealing with fake tanks, healers, and low DPS should do the same and take control of their game and dungeon experience. Otherwise, they will have to deal with what comes their way. That's a fact jack.
Running away from discrimination vs fighting against discrimination.
It is not discrimination. The low dps players are not selective of the groups they join and players have the same opportunity to kick them as they do for fake tanks and fake healers. So it cannot be discrimination regardless of attempts to classify it as such.
That is taking action. That is real action with a very heavy effect that sends a loud and clear message. Players have been reminded about that for a long as threads like this existed. If players did this across the board we would not have threads like this.
Equal rights to file complaints” and “equal chance to get fired” are not justification for “same pay but extra work”, at least not IRL.
We rightfully deserve “equal pay for about same amount of work”, and too should be empowered to get “coworkers” fired easier if he/she barely do anything.
I have already pointed out we have been able to fire players from a GF group for years. It is a very simple and straightforward process.
Vote kick the player. If a group votes a player out for performance reasons then they are fired. If the group does not vote the player out they have accepted their performance as sufficient to stay in the group. That includes not even trying to vote to kick.
The problem was solved long ago. We have the power in a very fair and democratic manner.
Glad I could point this out and clear things up.
There is one problem with this logic: People will not vote to kick because it takes forever to get a new person in many cases, especially a tank. Its not accepting their performance, its consigning themselves to the fact that they have to choose between not finishing at all or a slim chance of finishing with said person. Ive been in this predicament countless times. Most go for the latter because the wait is upwards of 20-25 mins in some cases. I once waited 45 for a random to pop. No joke 45 mins.
When I used the GF, before getting tired of poor performance, I never had a problem completing a dungeon because one player was vote-kicked.
Besides, what are the other options? If the person was really that bad then the group would fail or take years to clear.
To those who are concerned about vote-kicking someone, I guess the new GF is their savior. When they form a group via the upcoming system then they will have full control just as those of us that do the same thing now have.
I havent had that luck unless i bring in a dd myself or if im dpsing a tank
Also, of note, the person I was responding to seems to want some sort of definition of a fake dps even though each group can decide as a group if they want to eject someone as we have it now.
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PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭DD mainAs many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role. And there's only one reason to do that. And nobody does it for the role with the longest que.
Not everything is about queue times. Yes, supports have shorter queues, but there's also only one of each in every dungeon group and they cannot rely on others to do their job. In case of dds, however, there's always a chance that another dd will have enough damage to clear the dungeon. So, getting carried as a dd is much easier and that's what a lot of fake dds hope for when they queue.
Imo a free dungeon clear is a better reward than a quick queue.Edited by PrincessOfThieves on 27 September 2023 10:263 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »As many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role.
A DPS can absolutely queue for a vet dungeon knowingly looking to be carried for a monster helm, keys, achievement furniture, etc.
On top of that, intentions can't be judged by actions alone. Tanks without taunts who had every intention of maintaining aggro exist. I've met them. Most of them thought if they attacked first or did the most damage, they'd maintain aggro. So, despite the fact they were built like DPS and did not bother to slot a taunt, they were real tanks by intent based definitions.
So don't call anyone fake, don't worry about their intentions because you don't know them anyway, and just do what you gotta do?
Yes I agree.
You are the one that insisted intention matters, most people on affirmative side don’t believe intention matters, since “we don’t know them anyways”.
Real or fake should be based on performance. A person who can’t contribute enough as any of the 3 roles, is a fake regardless of what role they select.
This thread does not represent most people. It would be surprising is even .01% of the active gaming population has even looked at this thread let alone posted in it.
Embrace the power to force equality as I have. I am certain I am not the only one who has the power.
1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DD mainMaking a guild group isn't forcing equality in the activity finder, it's ignoring the issue and bypassing it. Problems with the activity finder can only be solved by the devs and people playing the activity finder.
Hopefully the new grouping tool helps address these issues better since it will allow groups being formed outside of guilds/friends to have standards.Edited by spartaxoxo on 27 September 2023 20:572 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »As many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role.
A DPS can absolutely queue for a vet dungeon knowingly looking to be carried for a monster helm, keys, achievement furniture, etc.
On top of that, intentions can't be judged by actions alone. Tanks without taunts who had every intention of maintaining aggro exist. I've met them. Most of them thought if they attacked first or did the most damage, they'd maintain aggro. So, despite the fact they were built like DPS and did not bother to slot a taunt, they were real tanks by intent based definitions.
So don't call anyone fake, don't worry about their intentions because you don't know them anyway, and just do what you gotta do?
Yes I agree.
You are the one that insisted intention matters, most people on affirmative side don’t believe intention matters, since “we don’t know them anyways”.
Real or fake should be based on performance. A person who can’t contribute enough as any of the 3 roles, is a fake regardless of what role they select.
This thread does not represent most people. It would be surprising is even .01% of the active gaming population has even looked at this thread let alone posted in it.
Embrace the power to force equality as I have. I am certain I am not the only one who has the power.
I am not going to discuss the impact of this debate. You showed up so you care enough about difference (or lack of) between real and fake dd.
As I already stated earlier, vote kick doesn’t force equality in responsibilities, just like getting a nearly useless coworker fired IRL doesn’t ensure fair compensation.
1 -
polaris86✭✭✭Main bothIn pugs I usually heal. I don’t believe there are fake dps, just bad/inexperienced dps. I don’t believe that tanks or healers are queuing as dd without the intention to be a dd, there’s no point in that because the queue is so long.
My standards for pugs are pretty low, I don't make a fuss unless it’s taking a really long time to get through fights. It’s pretty rare to get a hopeless dps group in my experience… fake tanks and fake healers (at least in DLC) tick me off way more.PCNA1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »As many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role.
A DPS can absolutely queue for a vet dungeon knowingly looking to be carried for a monster helm, keys, achievement furniture, etc.
On top of that, intentions can't be judged by actions alone. Tanks without taunts who had every intention of maintaining aggro exist. I've met them. Most of them thought if they attacked first or did the most damage, they'd maintain aggro. So, despite the fact they were built like DPS and did not bother to slot a taunt, they were real tanks by intent based definitions.
So don't call anyone fake, don't worry about their intentions because you don't know them anyway, and just do what you gotta do?
Yes I agree.
You are the one that insisted intention matters, most people on affirmative side don’t believe intention matters, since “we don’t know them anyways”.
Real or fake should be based on performance. A person who can’t contribute enough as any of the 3 roles, is a fake regardless of what role they select.
This thread does not represent most people. It would be surprising is even .01% of the active gaming population has even looked at this thread let alone posted in it.
Embrace the power to force equality as I have. I am certain I am not the only one who has the power.
I am not going to discuss the impact of this debate. You showed up so you care enough about difference (or lack of) between real and fake dd.
As I already stated earlier, vote kick doesn’t force equality in responsibilities, just like getting a nearly useless coworker fired IRL doesn’t ensure fair compensation.
That useless coworker is no longer a problem when they are fired. They are not draining the system. This great example you presented that demonstrates the vote to kick does help bring about equality.
I have the power just as you do. Exercise your existing rights to bring about equality. It is amazing.
1 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »As many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role.
A DPS can absolutely queue for a vet dungeon knowingly looking to be carried for a monster helm, keys, achievement furniture, etc.
On top of that, intentions can't be judged by actions alone. Tanks without taunts who had every intention of maintaining aggro exist. I've met them. Most of them thought if they attacked first or did the most damage, they'd maintain aggro. So, despite the fact they were built like DPS and did not bother to slot a taunt, they were real tanks by intent based definitions.
So don't call anyone fake, don't worry about their intentions because you don't know them anyway, and just do what you gotta do?
Yes I agree.
You are the one that insisted intention matters, most people on affirmative side don’t believe intention matters, since “we don’t know them anyways”.
Real or fake should be based on performance. A person who can’t contribute enough as any of the 3 roles, is a fake regardless of what role they select.
This thread does not represent most people. It would be surprising is even .01% of the active gaming population has even looked at this thread let alone posted in it.
Embrace the power to force equality as I have. I am certain I am not the only one who has the power.
I am not going to discuss the impact of this debate. You showed up so you care enough about difference (or lack of) between real and fake dd.
As I already stated earlier, vote kick doesn’t force equality in responsibilities, just like getting a nearly useless coworker fired IRL doesn’t ensure fair compensation.
That useless coworker is no longer a problem when they are fired. They are not draining the system. This great example you presented that demonstrates the vote to kick does help bring about equality.
I have the power just as you do. Exercise your existing rights to bring about equality. It is amazing.
you still have to get vote kick to you know actually succeed to remove the player
many people will not even notice it if your in combat (such as if your trying to kick a speeder who is constantly in combat)
newer players may not even know what it is and ignore it
and if you dont get a unanimous vote, it wont remove anyone from the groupplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities1 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »As many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role.
A DPS can absolutely queue for a vet dungeon knowingly looking to be carried for a monster helm, keys, achievement furniture, etc.
On top of that, intentions can't be judged by actions alone. Tanks without taunts who had every intention of maintaining aggro exist. I've met them. Most of them thought if they attacked first or did the most damage, they'd maintain aggro. So, despite the fact they were built like DPS and did not bother to slot a taunt, they were real tanks by intent based definitions.
So don't call anyone fake, don't worry about their intentions because you don't know them anyway, and just do what you gotta do?
Yes I agree.
You are the one that insisted intention matters, most people on affirmative side don’t believe intention matters, since “we don’t know them anyways”.
Real or fake should be based on performance. A person who can’t contribute enough as any of the 3 roles, is a fake regardless of what role they select.
This thread does not represent most people. It would be surprising is even .01% of the active gaming population has even looked at this thread let alone posted in it.
Embrace the power to force equality as I have. I am certain I am not the only one who has the power.
I am not going to discuss the impact of this debate. You showed up so you care enough about difference (or lack of) between real and fake dd.
As I already stated earlier, vote kick doesn’t force equality in responsibilities, just like getting a nearly useless coworker fired IRL doesn’t ensure fair compensation.
That useless coworker is no longer a problem when they are fired. They are not draining the system. This great example you presented that demonstrates the vote to kick does help bring about equality.
I have the power just as you do. Exercise your existing rights to bring about equality. It is amazing.
How exactly does getting a useless coworker fired establish fair distribution of work (same amount work for people receive same compensation) ?
Edited by ForzaRammer on 28 September 2023 16:002 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »As many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role.
A DPS can absolutely queue for a vet dungeon knowingly looking to be carried for a monster helm, keys, achievement furniture, etc.
On top of that, intentions can't be judged by actions alone. Tanks without taunts who had every intention of maintaining aggro exist. I've met them. Most of them thought if they attacked first or did the most damage, they'd maintain aggro. So, despite the fact they were built like DPS and did not bother to slot a taunt, they were real tanks by intent based definitions.
So don't call anyone fake, don't worry about their intentions because you don't know them anyway, and just do what you gotta do?
Yes I agree.
You are the one that insisted intention matters, most people on affirmative side don’t believe intention matters, since “we don’t know them anyways”.
Real or fake should be based on performance. A person who can’t contribute enough as any of the 3 roles, is a fake regardless of what role they select.
This thread does not represent most people. It would be surprising is even .01% of the active gaming population has even looked at this thread let alone posted in it.
Embrace the power to force equality as I have. I am certain I am not the only one who has the power.
I am not going to discuss the impact of this debate. You showed up so you care enough about difference (or lack of) between real and fake dd.
As I already stated earlier, vote kick doesn’t force equality in responsibilities, just like getting a nearly useless coworker fired IRL doesn’t ensure fair compensation.
That useless coworker is no longer a problem when they are fired. They are not draining the system. This great example you presented that demonstrates the vote to kick does help bring about equality.
I have the power just as you do. Exercise your existing rights to bring about equality. It is amazing.
you still have to get vote kick to you know actually succeed to remove the player
many people will not even notice it if your in combat (such as if your trying to kick a speeder who is constantly in combat)
newer players may not even know what it is and ignore it
and if you dont get a unanimous vote, it wont remove anyone from the group
It is a democracy. Often someone can be of one opinion and the rest disagree.
I was in a GF group as a healer with a person who started each pull before the tank. I commented on how annoying that was and suggested I would take my leave of the group. Someone else immediately started a vote and we kicked that annoying player.
It works. It works very well when the group as a whole is in agreement.
1 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Main bothOh, this is easy!
Someone in a fake role (DPS, healer, or tank) intentionally queues with a role active for which they know they aren't qualified to do in some or all of the scenarios that have the potential to present themselves based on queue selection. This is especially applicable if you are queuing for randoms and you're crossing your fingers to get FG1 because you know you can't do enough damage / take enough damage / heal through enough damage if you get Scrivener's or Depths of Malatar or something.
That's it. And yes, you can be fake with all three roles.
The problem is, there are so many assumptions, where people assume that folks with low DPS, tanks who can't take a hit, and healers who aren't saving people must be fake. New players, less-skilled players, less-knowledgeable players, players who imbibed some Arenthian Brandy or Skooma before playing, absent-minded players who forgot to change armor, put in cp points, etc. are all just as common and are not fake. They aren't setting out to intentionally be carried or short-change a group. They just don't know better, either in general or in the moment. It is not nice to call someone who is learning a fake.
It's almost impossible to consistently and correctly tell the difference between an inexperienced player or a fake player. I'd say speed runners tend to be more likely to be fakes, but not always.
Discussions on this topic on the forums are almost always frustrating because most suggestions to combat fake roles clearly will have negative unintended consequences for well-intentioned players who are new, trying a hybrid build, or for one reason or another don't know that they aren't playing "right." In my opinion, the only way to combat fake roles is to ensure that it is less efficient for fake players and only fake players to go through the queue and get rewards, which means some type of mechanism to reward players who successfully complete their declared role, as opposed to policing roles or putting in arbitrary rules that will limit creativity and frustrate new players who are learning.
I realize the poll and debate doesn't really talk about solving the problem, but it seemed a natural extension of the topic to comment on here.
Edited by peacenote on 30 September 2023 15:553 -
WuffyCerulei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DD mainTo me, a fake DD is someone is either unwilling/unable to pull their own weight in more serious content, or they’re someone who purposefully runs ahead, causes issues for the other 3, and dies a lot. I give obviously newer/less experienced people a pass. It’s kinda obvious once you’ve played as long as I have. Base game dungeons and some of the older DLC ones can be done fine with lower DPS. Even the newer ones can be done as well, if the DPS are at least giving it their best and are actively trying to not die to stupid. But if they’re repeating the same mistakes, and mayhaps doing other dumb stuff, I either leave or vote to kick if with friends. As for anyone who runs ahead of the tank and whatnot, that’s self explanatory.For the love of Kyne, buff sorc. PC NACP 2100+Star-Sïnger - Khajiit Magicka Sorc - EP Grand Overlord - Flawless Conqueror vMA/vBRP/vDSA no death/vHel Ra HM/vAA HM/vSO HM/vMoL HM/vHoF HM/vAS +2/vCR+3/vSS HMs/vKA HMs/vVH/vRG Oax HM/vDSR1 -
disintegr8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Support main
I'd suggest a tank or healer with 3000CP and trial gear is probably always going to deal more damage than a level 20 new player with no CP. That's not really the new players fault.Fake DD is someone who deals less damage than tank or healer.Australian on PS4 NA server.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion.1 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭disintegr8 wrote: »
Lvl 20 can only queue for handful of base game normal dungeons. Dps is no issue there. No one 3000cp takes their trial geared real tank or healer there lol.
I meant vet content. I sometimes pull 20% of dps as tank by just taunting, chaining and rooting mobs or doing more than half group dps when im healer while also healing and buffing. In that case the DDs are clearly fake.2 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »As many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role.
A DPS can absolutely queue for a vet dungeon knowingly looking to be carried for a monster helm, keys, achievement furniture, etc.
On top of that, intentions can't be judged by actions alone. Tanks without taunts who had every intention of maintaining aggro exist. I've met them. Most of them thought if they attacked first or did the most damage, they'd maintain aggro. So, despite the fact they were built like DPS and did not bother to slot a taunt, they were real tanks by intent based definitions.
So don't call anyone fake, don't worry about their intentions because you don't know them anyway, and just do what you gotta do?
Yes I agree.
You are the one that insisted intention matters, most people on affirmative side don’t believe intention matters, since “we don’t know them anyways”.
Real or fake should be based on performance. A person who can’t contribute enough as any of the 3 roles, is a fake regardless of what role they select.
This thread does not represent most people. It would be surprising is even .01% of the active gaming population has even looked at this thread let alone posted in it.
Embrace the power to force equality as I have. I am certain I am not the only one who has the power.
I am not going to discuss the impact of this debate. You showed up so you care enough about difference (or lack of) between real and fake dd.
As I already stated earlier, vote kick doesn’t force equality in responsibilities, just like getting a nearly useless coworker fired IRL doesn’t ensure fair compensation.
That useless coworker is no longer a problem when they are fired. They are not draining the system. This great example you presented that demonstrates the vote to kick does help bring about equality.
I have the power just as you do. Exercise your existing rights to bring about equality. It is amazing.
you still have to get vote kick to you know actually succeed to remove the player
many people will not even notice it if your in combat (such as if your trying to kick a speeder who is constantly in combat)
newer players may not even know what it is and ignore it
and if you dont get a unanimous vote, it wont remove anyone from the group
It is a democracy. Often someone can be of one opinion and the rest disagree.
I was in a GF group as a healer with a person who started each pull before the tank. I commented on how annoying that was and suggested I would take my leave of the group. Someone else immediately started a vote and we kicked that annoying player.
It works. It works very well when the group as a whole is in agreement.
obviously, im not saying that it never works, im saying that it fails more often than not because most people dont even see the notification
there are times ive tried to kick speedsters, but by the time it started, we were already in combat because of the guy rushing ahead, i even had a friend with me who i was on discord with that didnt even know i fired off the vote to kick because they didnt see the notification, i tried telling them to just open the notification window but instead felt like they had to try to keep up with the speedster lol
there are other times ive tried to kick players who were being pushy/annoying/rushing the group (was in ICP once and we were at the part with the levers and one of the players was like "go go go" "faster faster" for basically the entire dungeon up to this point, even while me and another person on the team were trying to do the levers and the annoying person was just standing there, i eventually just tried to vote kick and that ended up failing but i still saw the dungeon out since we were already at the end, i was already annoyed from the start of the dungeon and just refused to taunt anything until the speedster was killed or the boss was going after one of the other 2 players)
instances like that are what generally discourages me from using the queue at all or just soloing the dungeons so i dont have to deal with that, i still use the queue occasionally like during the undaunted event and also that the vote kick is not reliable unless your already in a group of 3 who you know will vote with you lolplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Main neitherdisintegr8 wrote: »
Thats very much not true. At certain point all your passive are full. Tanks put nothing into offensive. I am 1850cp and my tank is in full trial gear. I had to go get a companion for him for overland because it took an eternity to kill one mob without throwing down every single buff and debuff i had. The only other option was to respec for overland completely. So no, thats wrong. Healer sure, they spec into mag so atleast they have something, im spec almost completely into health with maybe 10 points into stam. He hits like spaghetti.1
This discussion has been closed.