Fake dd definition and classification debate

ForzaRammer

Zos plz don’t move my post, although it’s mostly about dungeon but it’s not entirely.

Also before participating in the debate plz choose which of the following describe you the best.

ForzaRammer

Support main

I would love zos staff to be debate mediators to keep the conversation civil.

I personally believe fake dd exist, so i am on the affirmative side, and i’d like the negative side define what real tank healer and dd first.

Arthtur

Main both

This will be fun to read.

ForzaRammer

Support main

Time to summon some long time members on the negative side @VaranisArano @kargen27 @preevious

As well as a long time member of the affirmative side @WrathOfInnos

FantasticFreddie

Support main

A fake dd is someone who chose DD classification in the group finder, and would not be able to complete the content with an identical DD.

ArchMikem

Main both

"Fake" isn't really an appropriate term to give players like that, as every fake Tank and fake Healer are legit DD's who intentionally choose the wrong role for a faster queue.

Whenever a DD is accused of being fake its just because their dps isn't high enough, or they're new and don't know what a rotation is.

ForzaRammer

Support main

ArchMikem wrote: »

"Fake" isn't really an appropriate term to give players like that, as every fake Tank and fake Healer are legit DD's who intentionally choose the wrong role for a faster queue.

Whenever a DD is accused of being fake its just because their dps isn't high enough, or they're new and don't know what a rotation is.

Please define real dd first

ArchMikem

Main both

ForzaRammer wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

"Fake" isn't really an appropriate term to give players like that, as every fake Tank and fake Healer are legit DD's who intentionally choose the wrong role for a faster queue.

Whenever a DD is accused of being fake its just because their dps isn't high enough, or they're new and don't know what a rotation is.

Please define real dd first

A player wielding any of the known damage dealing weapons with a Health Pool between 15k and 25k, using DD abilities.

Slight exception for Ice Staves tho, there are Cryomancer Wardens out there, myself included.

ForzaRammer

Support main

ArchMikem wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

"Fake" isn't really an appropriate term to give players like that, as every fake Tank and fake Healer are legit DD's who intentionally choose the wrong role for a faster queue.

Whenever a DD is accused of being fake its just because their dps isn't high enough, or they're new and don't know what a rotation is.

Please define real dd first

A player wielding any of the known damage dealing weapons with a Health Pool between 15k and 25k, using DD abilities.

Define dd ability, and are you saying oakensoul sorc is not real dd? Because of the 25k hp.

spartaxoxo

DD main

Tank:
Minimal expectation: taunts
Secondary: absorbs damage, controls adds, buffs/debuffs

Healer:
Minimal expectation: heals team
Secondary: buffs/debuffs, provides resources

DPS:
Minimal expectation: deals significant enough damage to clear DPS checks and damage mechs
Secondary: Rezzes

The secondary tasks aren't really necessary for me to consider someone in the correct role. But, I consider a player a fake if they don't meet those minimal definitions. For me, those are the primary task of the role. The entire reason we are separated into those 3 roles in the first place.

I don't consider a fake to automatically be a fraud either. I understand that some people intentionally refuse to fulfill those needs. But, fake is a word that can simply mean not authentic. While it usually implies deceit, it is not a requirement.

ForzaRammer

Support main

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tank:
Minimal expectation: taunts
Secondary: absorbs damage, controls adds, buffs/debuffs

Healer:
Minimal expectation: heals team
Secondary: buffs/debuffs, provides resources

DPS:
Minimal expectation: deals significant enough damage to clear DPS checks and damage mechs
Secondary: Rezzes

The secondary tasks aren't really necessary for me to consider someone in the correct role. But, I consider a player a fake if they don't meet those minimal definitions. For me, those are the primary task of the role. The entire reason we are separated into those 3 roles in the first place.

I don't consider a fake to automatically be a fraud either. I understand that some people intentionally refuse to fulfill those needs. But, fake is a word that can simply mean not authentic. While it usually implies deceit, it is not a requirement.

I personally don’t believe union of tank + healer + dd is whole player base. I see these as 3 sets of responsibilities. Not not all roles fulfill any of the 3.

And I believe extra roles that’s neither t h or d

zaria

Main both

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

A fake dd is someone who chose DD classification in the group finder, and would not be able to complete the content with an identical DD.

I say that is accurate, however if you queue on an random normal on an new build and get an of the harder dlc dungeons and rest of the team is not much better and obviously no tank. Ran into this on my arcanist in a guild rnd.
I tried to heal but that dropped dps a lot as its primary an okensoul build so dropping that for an reso staff back bar hurt a lot.
After we spent over 15 minutes we queued again and cleared the easier one.

LittlePinkDot

Support main

For vet dungeons I'm always a Healer or more recently a tank.

I suck at DD so if somebody else is less than par I have no right to complain.

As for normal dungeons I don't feel it matters much because the difficulty is so easy.

Most of my characters are PvP characters. But I can take them into normal. But the queue is so long for DD that I would rather queue them as a Healer or tank.
My PvP stam warden with polar wind and sword and board back bar can be a good tank in normal.

TaSheen

DD main

I only play DDs and I don't do group content so I have no idea fake this or fake that.

chessalavakia_ESO

Support main

Fake DD is incredibly rare as damage dealing is generally the most popular role.

For example, if I queue as a damage dealer with only heals slotted while running Mend Wounds so I can't even light or heavy attack to deal damage I would be a Fake DD as I'm really a healer that is pretending to be a Damage dealer.

Fake DD primarily gets tossed around a ton because players have become increasingly used to getting carried through content by people doing so much damage that the mechanics don't even properly fire that they become frustrated when they actually have to put some effort in to do the content.

Personally, I think ZOS should continue to work on reducing the damage at the top coupled with scaling the rewards to reflect the actual experience.

Increase the rewards for group finder the smaller the number of people you queue with.

Increase the rewards for when players in the group are inexperienced or haven't done the quest.

Increase the rewards when more of the dungeon is completed than the absolute minimum.

Increase the rewards based on how long the dungeon is compared to other dungeons.

Increase the rewards based on how long the time in the dungeon took compared to the average.

ForzaRammer

Support main

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Fake DD is incredibly rare as damage dealing is generally the most popular role.

For example, if I queue as a damage dealer with only heals slotted while running Mend Wounds so I can't even light or heavy attack to deal damage I would be a Fake DD as I'm really a healer that is pretending to be a Damage dealer.

Fake DD primarily gets tossed around a ton because players have become increasingly used to getting carried through content by people doing so much damage that the mechanics don't even properly fire that they become frustrated when they actually have to put some effort in to do the content.

Personally, I think ZOS should continue to work on reducing the damage at the top coupled with scaling the rewards to reflect the actual experience.

Increase the rewards for group finder the smaller the number of people you queue with.

Increase the rewards for when players in the group are inexperienced or haven't done the quest.

Increase the rewards when more of the dungeon is completed than the absolute minimum.

Increase the rewards based on how long the dungeon is compared to other dungeons.

Increase the rewards based on how long the time in the dungeon took compared to the average.

please define real tank dd and healer first

VaranisArano

Support main

LOL, I have been summoned.

I started off as a main tank for normal and vet dungeons. So I'm pretty familiar with how smoothly normal dungeons should go when the person who queued as tank is using a taunt vs when a fake tank is refusing to taunt and the boss is off attacking whoever it wants.

My opposition to fake tanks without a taunt really started when I started leveling my DD and Healer characters through random normal dungeons. My leveling Warden and Templar healer both ended up face tanking the boss more often than not. And when I'd try to play my DD, well, it was kind of hard to enjoy doing my DPS rotation when the boss was either in my face or constantly running out of ground-based AOEs.

I like to tank...but what eventually happened was I started to hate playing anything but a tank because I was inevitably expected to facetank anyway but with a build that wasn't designed for it. Maybe it'd be better in Veteran Dungeons, but that experience in normals kind of killed my desire to be a healer or a DD.

Nowadays, if I'm playing with friends, I'll bring my main DK tank Varanis Arano. She's got the resistances, chains, CCs, grouping, buffs and debuffs, all the bells and whistles that a good tank can bring to enhance a competent group.

But if I'm playing in random normal dungeons, I'll play one of those DDs-with-a-taunt in normal dungeons. My MagSorc DD/Tank can handily tank all of the normal dungeons I own while still dealing enough DPS to speed up the run AND can heal the party when I get a fake healer.

..............................................

All I really ask in a normal dungeon is that if you queue up as tank, you taunt the boss and don't die.

If you're a normal healer, heal the group and keep yourself alive. "Physician, heal thyself" and all that.

If you're a DD, you should be able to do an appropriate amount of DPS for the content you queued up for. That's pretty minimal for most non-DLC normal dungeons, though I strongly suggest making an appointment with a training dummy to learn your DPS before you start running veteran dungeons so you can gauge your performance on the DPS checks.

Oznog666

My 2 cents: to be a fake DD you must be a tank or a healer going in as DD. I'm pretty sure nobody is acting like this. Because this is what fake tanks or healers are doing, they are DD but queuing as tank or healer. Saw it pretty often during this event. IMHO the discussion about fake DDs is nonsense, it can be about DD not able to do enough damage but not about fake DD.

MidniteOwl1913

Support main

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tank:
Minimal expectation: taunts
Secondary: absorbs damage, controls adds, buffs/debuffs

Healer:
Minimal expectation: heals team
Secondary: buffs/debuffs, provides resources

DPS:
Minimal expectation: deals significant enough damage to clear DPS checks and damage mechs
Secondary: Rezzes

The secondary tasks aren't really necessary for me to consider someone in the correct role. But, I consider a player a fake if they don't meet those minimal definitions. For me, those are the primary task of the role. The entire reason we are separated into those 3 roles in the first place.

I don't consider a fake to automatically be a fraud either. I understand that some people intentionally refuse to fulfill those needs. But, fake is a word that can simply mean not authentic. While it usually implies deceit, it is not a requirement.

I agree with this for the most part, but I think it's also important for the support roles healer/tank to stay with the party. Even a fully spec'ed healer/tank that's always 2 screens ahead isn't doing the party much good.

Katheriah

Main both

If you join a dungeon as DD but you can't finish it if the other DD does the same damage as you then you're not really looking to contribute, you're looking for a carry.

This event I've seen some "DD's" of which I'm pretty sure they would struggle really hard with overland content and quests on their current "build".

phaneub17_ESO

Main neither

When it comes to group dungeons? Solo player. I tank, heal, and do damage; companions are strictly damage dealers. I do use Azandar as a tank, but only for overland world bosses as if things go south, you can always run away.

Jimbru

Main both

My main is a Nightblade with builds for tank, healer, and DPS. In group play, across all my characters, I play DPS and healer the most, and tank the least.

To me, a "fake" whatever is a character that is not playing a proper build for the role they queued for.

Fake tanks are the most obvious and common. I've seen too many people lately queueing as "tanks" with sub 20K HP and no ability to survive aggro, much less hold it. If you're not in heavy armor and taunting and able to hold a boss, then you're not a tank, and you should be fed to skeevers feet first for queueing as one. Nibble nibble! (Sheogorath laughter)

Fake healers are less common, but painfully obvious when you find one. I've seen some fake healers lately that I don't think even bothered equipping a resto staff and its first three skills, which that step alone can carry core normal dungeons. Like they're not even trying...

Fake DPS? It's definitely possible, but in my experience, not common, though I did have one today in Graven Deep. I was playing my NB as a healer, and the fake was a lowbie Warden carrying a RESTO staff, playing "DPS". I'm not even sure how they were able to get into the dungeon at their level, but there they were, and I am dead sure a properly built companion could have both out-damaged them and done a better job staying alive. It was a test of my healing skills for sure.

Billium813

Main both

To me, the indication of "role" is entirely based on intent; the actions being taken. To be a "fake" role, the player must have indicated themselves as one role, yet they are performing actions that either 1) overwhelmingly belong to another role, or 2) are obviously showing no engagement with actually playing the game.

If the player has selected the role of DD, however their damage is noticeably low, I look at the actions of the player first. If the DD is simply performing Full Charged HA with, lets say a 2H, and no Skills are being used, they are a "fake" DD. If they are performing actions and Skills, but the damage is still painfully low, then they are just bad DD, not "fake".

The distinction between bad and "fake" is important because it tells me know how I should treat the player. Bad players get suggestions and assistance. "Fake" players get a comment in chat about it and a vote kick.

Soarora

I'm an ex-healer main, turned tank main, but I also DPS. But I wouldn't consider myself a DPS main. Due to this confusion, I haven't voted in the poll.

I consider a fake DPS to be a healer or tank (or a support hybrid) queued as DPS. Why are bad healers and bad tanks called bad healers and bad tanks, but bad DPS are called fake? Why don't we just call them bad DPS?

lillybit

DD main

Love the idea of a more structured debate for this!

My opinion is you can't be a fake DD if you have any skills/weapons capable of causing damage. At the most basic level, a fake healer would be someone with no heals slotted and a tank someone with no taunt, so not able to do the minimum required for those roles.

If I loaded into a dungeon and the person in the tank role had a S&B (or ice staff but thats not so obvious straight away) and a taunt it would be enough to say they're a real tank. They might die in seconds, not pull adds, lose taunt or whatever else, but that would just make them a bad tank, not fake. If the same role is filled with say a pet sorc with an Inferno staff and no tank skills, then they're fake.

To be a fake DD you'd have to deal no damage at all. Being bad at the role and loading into content you know you can't do expecting a carry is definitely an issue (and selfish imo) but I don't think it's the same as being fake.

Basically, if you have the tools in your toolbox to do the job you're not fake. If someone else would be able to use those tools to do a better job you're just bad.

Aislinna

I do not think you can have "fake" damage dealers, as everybody can deal damage.

Some characters may not have good gear sets or a decent rotation or know mechanics, or may only hold heavy attack or just light attack or could just be a new player, but they are dealing damage, just not enough for your liking. Call them bad if you must, but they are not "fake" as they are not pretending.

Jimbru

Main both

Aislinna wrote: »

I do not think you can have "fake" damage dealers, as everybody can deal damage.

Some characters may not have good gear sets or a decent rotation or know mechanics, or may only hold heavy attack or just light attack or could just be a new player, but they are dealing damage, just not enough for your liking. Call them bad if you must, but they are not "fake" as they are not pretending.

I think we all here can/should agree that there's a difference between a fake -- someone who isn't even trying -- and a new player who doesn't have gear sets yet, is still learning the ropes and so on.

Every one of us has been through a phase where we had whatever mess of gear we found randomly and had no idea what we were doing, so nobody should be criticizing anyone about that. In fact, we should be actively reaching out to help those players.

But when somebody is visibly putting in zero effort into their role or into getting better, when someone is actively holding the group back, then that person is a fake.

Hapexamendios

There aren't fake DDs as far as I'm concerned, just really bad ones.

RicAlmighty

If this community put half as much effort into finding a guild and putting a team together as they did to complaining about fake roles, they'd have much more fun playing the game.

Aislinna

Jimbru wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

I do not think you can have "fake" damage dealers, as everybody can deal damage.

Some characters may not have good gear sets or a decent rotation or know mechanics, or may only hold heavy attack or just light attack or could just be a new player, but they are dealing damage, just not enough for your liking. Call them bad if you must, but they are not "fake" as they are not pretending.

I think we all here can/should agree that there's a difference between a fake -- someone who isn't even trying -- and a new player who doesn't have gear sets yet, is still learning the ropes and so on.

Every one of us has been through a phase where we had whatever mess of gear we found randomly and had no idea what we were doing, so nobody should be criticizing anyone about that. In fact, we should be actively reaching out to help those players.

But when somebody is visibly putting in zero effort into their role or into getting better, when someone is actively holding the group back, then that person is a fake.

So your definition of "Fake DD" is only somebody who does ZERO damage at any time? I can agree with that.

But how do you determine that the random you just met 3 minutes ago "is visibly putting in zero effort into their role or into getting better"?

The "I know it when I see it" definition may work for ***, but I don't think it works for damage dealers. i still stand that anybody who does damage is not "fake", but can be called bad.

spartaxoxo

DD main

Soarora wrote: »

Why are bad healers and bad tanks called bad healers and bad tanks, but bad DPS are called fake? Why don't we just call them bad DPS?

A lot of people intentionally choose not to build to do good dps. They don't care about doing good damage. They don't fill their bars with dps skills. They don't bother figuring out a decent build with damage gear. Beyond that, each fake is being judged by their ability to fill the role they signed up for.

edit:

I'm not saying it's a big deal if someone doesn't care about doing good damage. There's a lot of content in this game that can be completed as such. On normal mode, it doesn't matter all that much. In vet mode, it can break the dungeon just as much as other roles that aren't built for.