ToT NPCs excessively difficult

Necrotech_Master · July 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

The other night I finally had a match where the Expert NPC eliminated every single card in its deck. I was behind by about 10 Prestige (something like 17 to 7) when I suddenly noticed that the NPC had only 1 card. I was like, "Wut?" I took my turn and then it was the NPC's turn. It played its card, which was 3 coins (the 2-cost Hlaalu card). One of the cards in the tavern was a 3-cost contract card that lets you remove one of your played cards-- so it bought that card, removed the Hlaalu card from its played cards pile, and was left with 0 cards. Needless to say, I came up from behind and won the match.

this just further makes me believe that the NPC AI is identical regardless if its novice, proficient, or expert lol

the only real difference between the NPCs is the availability of decks

The few times that I've played the Novice NPCs, they were definitely using different logic than the Expert NPCs.

Right now, Expert NPCs will typically begin their turns by using the Treasury to convert a 1-coin card to a 2-coin card, then they'll buy a card from the Tavern if they can afford one. There are exceptions, such as if a very desirable card is in the Tavern that they can afford only if they skip using the Treasury-- but they'll leave some desirable cards untouched in favor of using the Treasury, so there's some kind of prioritizing in their logic which determines when to buy a desirable card versus when to use the Treasury. This is in sharp contrast to the pre-Necrom Expert NPCs, who put a higher priority on buying cards versus using the Treasury.

On the other hand, the logic of the Novice NPCs seems to be focused primarily on achieving a patron win, which I have not seen to be the case with the Expert NPCs.

The most problematic logic with all NPCs seems to be with respect to replacing cards in the Tavern and removing cards from their hands. In short, they are programmed to always replace or remove the maximum number of cards, regardless of whether or not it makes any sense.

"Replace up to 2 cards in the Tavern"-- they act like it says "You MUST replace 2 cards in the Tavern," and they are programmed to always replace whichever cards they consider to be the best ones (presumably to prevent their opponent from being able to buy those cards), even if they would have been able to buy one or both of those cards themselves during their turn.

"Remove up to 2 cards from your played pile"-- they act like it says "You MUST remove 2 cards from your played pile."

Also, they still continue to cheat when using the "Replace up to X cards in the Tavern," because theur programming allows them to replace cards which don't come up until after they've bought the card that lets them replace up to X cards. Players are not allowed to do that because if we buy a card that lets us replace cards from the Tavern, the game refuses to draw another card to replace the one we just bought until after we've selected the card(s) we want to replace (if any) and then confirmed our choice. In contrast, the game will go ahead a draw another card when the NPC buys a 'Replace" card, even before the NPC has made and confirmed its choice, which thereby allows it to replace the card that was just drawn.

thats something the npcs have done since tribute was introduced, they definitely always use each card to the maximum effect, even if it doesnt benefit them

there are sometimes when they have to discard cards and they have a bewilderment in hand, they will actually not discard the bewilderment lol

there are some subtles with the different AI, but for the most part they tended to play about the same

it sounds like the biggest difference right now is how they treat the treasury, the novice npcs generally ignore the treasury converting coin to writ unless that is their only option

the way its sounding is though they might have gotten the expert and novice AI reversed, because the novice AI prioritizes the tavern over anything else unless it has nothing else it can do lol

quinancia · July 2023

I only play expert NPCs and not often. Too much time for too little rewards.

If you play against expert NPCs, and you play Crow and Red Eagle, it is really hard to lose

CoronHR · July 2023

yeah there's a huge problem with novice npcs. the term 'novice' is a joke now. i play expert npcs only now because i can actually win against them. they took a slightly enjoyable card game ... it's not bad, it's just not that great and i don't feel compelled to play it ... and they've made it something you want to run away from fast and hard

Lugaldu · July 2023

CoronHR wrote: »

yeah there's a huge problem with novice npcs. the term 'novice' is a joke now. i play expert npcs only now because i can actually win against them. they took a slightly enjoyable card game ... it's not bad, it's just not that great and i don't feel compelled to play it ... and they've made it something you want to run away from fast and hard

It's even more ironic that even our new companion, Azandar, seems to hate the game...

BlueRaven · July 2023

Can anyone test the pts? Is there any change?

TybaltKaine · July 2023

I'll test on PTS in a bit

TybaltKaine · July 2023

I can happily report that Novice NPC's seem to have been toned down.

They still make obvious and aggressive mistakes, like sacrificing cards recklessly.

They also seem to prioritize Patron victories now.

I did notice on the first hand that the NPC somehow got two coins for playing a single coin card (the basic coin card) and finished the hand with 6 coin which allowed them to magically by up a 6 cost treasury card( I think it was a Crow, not sure which one though) that had appeared after I bought a cheap card on my turn. They then, of course, sacrificed that card as soon as they could for a cheap 6 power.

I ended up winning 57-21, mostly because they kept sacrificing cards and ended up with coins and nothing else by the end.

I used the base game decks. It was the novice NPC in the Stormhold tavern.

MidniteOwl1913 · July 2023

TybaltKaine wrote: »

I can happily report that Novice NPC's seem to have been toned down.

They still make obvious and aggressive mistakes, like sacrificing cards recklessly.

They also seem to prioritize Patron victories now.

I did notice on the first hand that the NPC somehow got two coins for playing a single coin card (the basic coin card) and finished the hand with 6 coin which allowed them to magically by up a 6 cost treasury card( I think it was a Crow, not sure which one though) that had appeared after I bought a cheap card on my turn. They then, of course, sacrificed that card as soon as they could for a cheap 6 power.

I ended up winning 57-21, mostly because they kept sacrificing cards and ended up with coins and nothing else by the end.

I used the base game decks. It was the novice NPC in the Stormhold tavern.

Hmm, that sounds like most of my live recent experiances... How is this different?

TybaltKaine · July 2023

They aren't making master level moves is my point. On Live they are buying up the best cards every turn, aggressively comboing to earn 10+ prestige a turn.

Now they are much less perceptive to the cards available to buy, aren't comboing effectively, and are actually using the treasury again.

In short, they are playing like Novices again.

Basbor · July 2023

Just for the fun of it - look what happened here:

The Expert-NPC knocked out nearly all of his cards using the Red Eagle deck.
A bit stupid as it has happened some times now when the King of the Reach is in the game.
On one occassion the Expert-NPC had exactly ZERO cards left, as he tossed them all away before.

TybaltKaine · July 2023

Is this on live or PTS? I can't play experts yet.

MidniteOwl1913 · July 2023

TybaltKaine wrote: »

They aren't making master level moves is my point. On Live they are buying up the best cards every turn, aggressively comboing to earn 10+ prestige a turn.

Now they are much less perceptive to the cards available to buy, aren't comboing effectively, and are actually using the treasury again.

In short, they are playing like Novices again.

So from my experiances yesterday. The novice NPC, almost never used the treasury. It for the most part sacrificed cards with little regard to the strategic value and towards the end had almost no cards left. It did not discard bewilderment cards. It bought agents, but sacrificed them after one turn. The prioritizing of the patron win is very annoying and it's not even really using them (with 1 gold it turns crow) just aiming to win with just patrons. It just wack-a-mole with patrons.

Occasionaly for reasons I don't understand it seems to use the treasury enough to be useful, hang onto good cards.

I use Rajii and Hlaalu.

Necrotech_Master · July 2023

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

They aren't making master level moves is my point. On Live they are buying up the best cards every turn, aggressively comboing to earn 10+ prestige a turn.

Now they are much less perceptive to the cards available to buy, aren't comboing effectively, and are actually using the treasury again.

In short, they are playing like Novices again.

So from my experiances yesterday. The novice NPC, almost never used the treasury. It for the most part sacrificed cards with little regard to the strategic value and towards the end had almost no cards left. It did not discard bewilderment cards. It bought agents, but sacrificed them after one turn. The prioritizing of the patron win is very annoying and it's not even really using them (with 1 gold it turns crow) just aiming to win with just patrons. It just wack-a-mole with patrons.

Occasionaly for reasons I don't understand it seems to use the treasury enough to be useful, hang onto good cards.

I use Rajii and Hlaalu.

rahjin and hlaalu is one of the most effective combos against the novice npcs

this is my experience, i still have like 90% win rate against novice npcs using these decks, and the games still only take about 10-15 min most times

Necrotech_Master · July 2023

TybaltKaine wrote: »

I can happily report that Novice NPC's seem to have been toned down.

They still make obvious and aggressive mistakes, like sacrificing cards recklessly.

They also seem to prioritize Patron victories now.

I did notice on the first hand that the NPC somehow got two coins for playing a single coin card (the basic coin card) and finished the hand with 6 coin which allowed them to magically by up a 6 cost treasury card( I think it was a Crow, not sure which one though) that had appeared after I bought a cheap card on my turn. They then, of course, sacrificed that card as soon as they could for a cheap 6 power.

I ended up winning 57-21, mostly because they kept sacrificing cards and ended up with coins and nothing else by the end.

I used the base game decks. It was the novice NPC in the Stormhold tavern.

this is exactly how they have been playing to my experience since necrom dropped

novices do prioritize buying tavern and pick up whatever they can afford, but if you have hlaalu in play they sacrifice every card they buy and iif you have rahjin to stall them with some bewilderments it slows them down to the point they can hardly buy anything (as well as the -prestige from rahjin being direct counter to hlaalu patron)

Lugaldu · July 2023

Today, just for fun, I tried out whether they had changed the difficulty of the novice NPCs - no, they are still ridiculously difficult!
If ToT had been like this from the start, I would never have played it for even a week. And now victories in ToT should be added as a daily task for endeavours, it's really no fun anymore!

Edit: a bit additional info, because others said that the novice NPCs have been made a little milder again - before the changes, the novice players hardly ever played the patrons and always only the tavern first, in the game that I had today, the NPC focused on the patrons from the start, didn't even play the tavern once - this is definitely not a step back to that what we had before (the good old times when you could just do quickly a novice game ToT in 5 minutes in between and victory was a guarantee - why are there different levels anyway when the novices are harder than the expert NPS....?)

emilyhyoyeon · July 2023

I really want the new glyphic secrets music box; the TOT reward box lead is the last one I need. I'm doing expert NPCs, and games take me about 10-15min. 45 minutes for a couple shots at RNG for the lead... I've done two dailies worth of boxes (6 green 2 purple + a couple white from losses) with no lead. None of the other 10 leads from this have taken me more than the 2ish hours I've spent on this one.

I actually don't want in-game earnable rewards anymore, if they come from TOT RNG boxes.

Or they could revert the novice NPC changes so I can only spend 10min of my day grinding, instead of an hour, for pitiful chances at the lead. Or they could buff the expert NPC reward boxes; a 50% chance at the lead would be nice

I actually enjoy this game on its own. But it's not fun when there's no easy option anymore for when I'm just trying to get the daily done.

I also just remembered the Captain Kaleen houseguest I wanted essentially comes from these boxes as well...

CGPsaint · July 2023

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I really want the new glyphic secrets music box; the TOT reward box lead is the last one I need. I'm doing expert NPCs, and games take me about 10-15min. 45 minutes for a couple shots at RNG for the lead... I've done two dailies worth of boxes (6 green 2 purple + a couple white from losses) with no lead. None of the other 10 leads from this have taken me more than the 2ish hours I've spent on this one.

I actually don't want in-game earnable rewards anymore, if they come from TOT RNG boxes.

Or they could revert the novice NPC changes so I can only spend 10min of my day grinding, instead of an hour, for pitiful chances at the lead. Or they could buff the expert NPC reward boxes; a 50% chance at the lead would be nice

I actually enjoy this game on its own. But it's not fun when there's no easy option anymore for when I'm just trying to get the daily done.

I also just remembered the Captain Kaleen houseguest I wanted essentially comes from these boxes as well...

I did a couple of days worth of NPC dailies where I completed all three matches for the max level reward and didn't get the lead from any of those coffers. I then tried casual matchmaker and won three matches for the max level reward and promptly got the lead from the first purple coffer I opened. Might be worth trying that route.

netch_a_sketch · July 2023

I disagree that they are more difficult, they just gain points quicker because they sacrifice a lot of cards with the hlaalu patron power or grab a ton of Pelin cards, even ones that are terrible such at portcullis, and they end up all adding up.

You can take advantage of the fact that the novices use the crow patron very early in the game when they have none or barely any gold, and then they'll do it again a second time.

Lady_Rosabella · July 2023

netch_a_sketch wrote: »

I disagree that they are more difficult, they just gain points quicker because they sacrifice a lot of cards with the hlaalu patron power or grab a ton of Pelin cards, even ones that are terrible such at portcullis, and they end up all adding up.

You can take advantage of the fact that the novices use the crow patron very early in the game when they have none or barely any gold, and then they'll do it again a second time.

I literally started my new Arcanist on ToT today, I like to have it on every toon, and I've played 9 games today on her while going through the main quest and every single NPC I have played today has started their very first hand with turning their cards, buying a card from the board, and trading in 1 gold by sacrificing the Duke. Then they proceed with also sacrificing every card with with the Grandmaster. I don't know who decided this was the way to have the NPC's play but it's boring.

Necrotech_Master · July 2023

Lady_Rosabella wrote: »

netch_a_sketch wrote: »

I disagree that they are more difficult, they just gain points quicker because they sacrifice a lot of cards with the hlaalu patron power or grab a ton of Pelin cards, even ones that are terrible such at portcullis, and they end up all adding up.

You can take advantage of the fact that the novices use the crow patron very early in the game when they have none or barely any gold, and then they'll do it again a second time.

I literally started my new Arcanist on ToT today, I like to have it on every toon, and I've played 9 games today on her while going through the main quest and every single NPC I have played today has started their very first hand with turning their cards, buying a card from the board, and trading in 1 gold by sacrificing the Duke. Then they proceed with also sacrificing every card with with the Grandmaster. I don't know who decided this was the way to have the NPC's play but it's boring.

i actually played an expert npc yesterday for the first time in months, and they still seem to have a different priority set than the novice/proficient npcs

the expert still prioritized using the treasury on gold coin, and rarely hit the patrons

difficulty wise, i wouldnt say the expert or novice is any harder than the other, the novice only seems superficially harder because they spam hlaalu patron (the prestige does add up, but if you counter with rahjin they go nowhere), but i overall felt like they definitely make a lot more "novice" mistakes compared to the expert npc

Roxxsmom · July 2023

I still don't find them terribly difficult, per se, but I've been playing them since the beginning. I suspect it's more frustrating for newer players, since the novice seem smarter, or at least just as "smart," in some ways than the more advanced npcs. For instance, the novice player now uses the patron cards quite heavily, which wasn't the case early on.

I still nearly always win unless the rng is really against me, or if I play a bonehead move. The npcs still make the stupidest mistakes, such as being on the last turn and needing to catch up in points to "stay in the game," but instead of turning the crow patron at the beginning of the turn, when they have lots of gold to convert into points, they buy a bunch of cards that won't help them, then turn the crow at the end for just one point.

The npcs in general also tend to get very spammy with their use of a patron. Once they use a given patron once, they will do it every chance they get, even if it's not helpful, and a different patron would have done more for them. They still don't tend to be very smart about which patrons they choose and how they use them.

The main thing is that they seem to employ strategies and buy the cards that prolong the game, even when it doesn't help them. I will sometimes leave the room to make myself a sandwich when the psijic deck is in play and they get into that endlessly turning and shuffling cards back and forth thing, which they do very slowly and deliberately, with noticeable pauses.

CGPsaint · August 2023

PTS Patch Notes v9.1.3

Expert NPCs will now use all the cards available in the Almalexia deck.
Novice NPCs now play more appropriate to their level.

Maybe this will alleviate some of the issues that some players are having with Novice NPCs.

MidniteOwl1913 · August 2023

Roxxsmom wrote: »

The main thing is that they seem to employ strategies and buy the cards that prolong the game, even when it doesn't help them. I will sometimes leave the room to make myself a sandwich when the psijic deck is in play and they get into that endlessly turning and shuffling cards back and forth thing, which they do very slowly and deliberately, with noticeable pauses.

I too find this card dance really annoying. It can and often does add quite a bit of time to the game and accomplishes nothing.

Tzirzhalir · August 2023

I agree completely. People generally want to feel like they are progressing in a game. Tales of Tribute npc just suck all the fun out. Want to do my daily Tot which now takes more than 2 hours only to not get upgrades and fragment pieces for the Necrom achievements not forgetting the music box lead which is an utter joke. Do something about your Npc Tot. I sometimes feel like the devs really just want to punish us as players on the game we spend so much time and money on.

bulbousb16_ESO · August 2023

I started ToT only recently. I did the tutorial, and then challenged every NPC upstairs in Gonfalon to a match. I lost every match, to every NPC. TWICE.

But then everything just clicked. Now, no lose no more. Hoping the founders might be a challenge, but doubtful.

dazee · August 2023

Yeah I've noticed its literally impossible to beat even a novice NPC in 100 matches. Thanks ZOS, another feature I looked forward to rendered a dissapointment at best.

Maybe its time we stopped expecting anything remotely good and found another game to play..

spartaxoxo · August 2023

dazee wrote: »

Yeah I've noticed its literally impossible to beat even a novice NPC in 100 matches. Thanks ZOS, another feature I looked forward to rendered a dissapointment at best.

Maybe its time we stopped expecting anything remotely good and found another game to play..

Why don't you share a video of what you're doing. Once the game clicks, the NPCs all become really easy to beat.

SeaGtGruff · August 2023

And they've just gotten harder (smarter) again, I think.

Lugaldu · August 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

And they've just gotten harder (smarter) again, I think.

I had to try it right away since I was playing quite a lot in the last week... Yes, they did changed something, it never happened before to me that a match against a beginner NPC lasts 30 min. and that he was able to gain 25 gold as well as 27 power in one single round!
Thats annoying!

SeaGtGruff · August 2023

Lugaldu wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

And they've just gotten harder (smarter) again, I think.

I had to try it right away since I was playing quite a lot in the last week... Yes, they did changed something, it never happened before to me that a match against a beginner NPC lasts 30 min. and that he was able to gain 25 gold as well as 27 power in one single round!
Thats annoying!

I haven't tried playing against the Beginner NPCs; I was referring to the Expert NPCs. It's still possible to beat them, but their tactics have changed again to be more aggressive in the use of certain patrons that they used to ignore. That, plus the faster decision making, threw me for a loop at first. Supposedly the Beginner NPCs now play more appropriately to their level, but I'd have to try playing against them a few times to see.