Just starting a game with a Proficient NPC now.
Round 1: Makes a good choice from the Tavern, then Duke of Crows for 1 power.
Round 2: Buys a Tithe from the Tavern, without using its benefit, therefore allowing a good card to come up for me.
Rounds 3-4: Reasonable. We're flipping Hunding back and forth, with nobody reaching a good 6-coin card.
Rounds 5-6: Reasonable. NPC is up to 3 Patrons now, but it won't be able to use Pelin any time soon.
Rounds 6-7: I got to good 6-coin cards first, because I've been buying more Writs of Coin.

Later rounds:

• I have a nice lead in deck quality. Frequently sitting at 3 patrons down does put some pressure on my choices.
• The NPC knocked out one of my agents and DIDN'T pick the Contract one.
• That No-Shira Poet I wouldn't have bought except to forestall the NPC using Pelin's has twice boosted Rally into my hand. NPC has never been able to muster 8 gold.
• I've generally coasted to a win.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I finally played a Novice NPC tonight after winning 3 matches against Expert NPCs for the daily.

Wow, I see what you all mean! I won the first 2 matches, but both of them were close. I lost the third match because the NPC kept using the Hlaalu patron to get way ahead and I couldn't catch up. In all 3 matches he started out by trying to get a patron victory, so that meant I had to work to stop him from winning that way while also trying to keep up with his spamming of the Hlaalu patron. It was unreal.

Yup! I avoid Hlaalu if at all possible. Even if I win in the end, it's just no fun to play.

ToT was only only marginally fun before Necrom released, but with the recent changes to NPC difficulty levels and the new Almalexia deck, I just don't think that it's worth my time any more. Why play something that isn't even remotely fun for subpar rewards?

Honestly the daily against the NPC isn't worth anymore. The rewards aren't bad, but now it takes 40-45 minutes to complete. And in addition to that the game just isn't as much fun. Luck plays much more a role in winning. It only takes a few bad rounds at the start and there is no recovering. I don't enjoy having to play multiple additional games to finish the quest.

I don't understand who benefits by these changes.

I noticed that too. I am bad at card games so I only play against easy and sometimes intermediate npcs. Recently I just stopped playing at all because the daily quest just isn't worth it when even the novice npcs are making long elaborate turns. Imo it's fair to make the master/expert npcs difficult to beat, but there should be a casual option just like with dungeons.

delenn35 wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

Having played against Expert NPCs today after seeing how buffed up Novice and Proficient NPCs were, I'd put money down that ZOS accidentally applied the buff that was intended for Expert NPCs to Novice NPCs instead. The Expert NPCs still had the same old habits like spamming coin upgrades and largely ignoring patrons. I'm not complaining, since it's nice to get a daily done in less than an hour, but it would make way more sense for the Novice opponents to be the ones you can readily beat.

Yep, I definitely agree with this - there is no way the novice NPC is a 'novice'.

It does seem that expert and novice have been swapped.

from my experience playing the different level npcs, they all appear to be using the same AI, they all tend to play the cards the same (if your playing novice you can select other than the basic decks and the novice uses those decks the same as the expert/proficient npcs)

the ones above novice just have access to more decks to select than the basic 4

which is actually funny because the basic 4 decks are all reasonably strong, the only basic deck the npcs are really bad with is hlaalu because they indiscriminately sacrifice every card they buy

I went ahead and played some expert NPCs yesterday. My conclusion is that someone who is troubled by the expert NPCs likely has a fundamental misunderstanding of how deck building games work.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

delenn35 wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

Having played against Expert NPCs today after seeing how buffed up Novice and Proficient NPCs were, I'd put money down that ZOS accidentally applied the buff that was intended for Expert NPCs to Novice NPCs instead. The Expert NPCs still had the same old habits like spamming coin upgrades and largely ignoring patrons. I'm not complaining, since it's nice to get a daily done in less than an hour, but it would make way more sense for the Novice opponents to be the ones you can readily beat.

Yep, I definitely agree with this - there is no way the novice NPC is a 'novice'.

It does seem that expert and novice have been swapped.

from my experience playing the different level npcs, they all appear to be using the same AI, they all tend to play the cards the same (if your playing novice you can select other than the basic decks and the novice uses those decks the same as the expert/proficient npcs)

the ones above novice just have access to more decks to select than the basic 4

which is actually funny because the basic 4 decks are all reasonably strong, the only basic deck the npcs are really bad with is hlaalu because they indiscriminately sacrifice every card they buy

Hmmm... I'm not so sure, although admittedly I've only ever played the experts. Now, and previously, I've noticed that the (expert) NPC will sacrifice all of their single gold cards in order to build their coin before picking any other card from the tavern, all the while leaving very worthwhile and powerful cards in the tavern for me to pick.

Since the update, this has stayed the same. After noticing these posts where people are saying the NPCs are now too strong, even novice, I thought I'd put it to the test. So, I've played a few novice games and the NPC will immediately choose powerful cards from the tavern, restricting my access to them. Not only this, but they are VERY proficient with the patrons - all patrons. In the past year, every time we get an update where the NPCs are supposed to a bit stronger, I have found that all that happens is that a new patron becomes the focus. For example, early on when ToT was released, the Crow patron was used by NPCs. In updates since then, they didn't use it at all, they would focus on another patron. Now, in these 'novice' matches, the NPCs know exactly what they're doing as far as patrons AND picking cards from the tavern goes.

Now, to be honest, I really don't have a problem with this, but just assign these advanced strategies to the 'expert' NPC and maybe adjust the reward to reflect a win against the more advanced AI?? What do you think?

Thanks for your reply.

delenn35 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

delenn35 wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

Having played against Expert NPCs today after seeing how buffed up Novice and Proficient NPCs were, I'd put money down that ZOS accidentally applied the buff that was intended for Expert NPCs to Novice NPCs instead. The Expert NPCs still had the same old habits like spamming coin upgrades and largely ignoring patrons. I'm not complaining, since it's nice to get a daily done in less than an hour, but it would make way more sense for the Novice opponents to be the ones you can readily beat.

Yep, I definitely agree with this - there is no way the novice NPC is a 'novice'.

It does seem that expert and novice have been swapped.

from my experience playing the different level npcs, they all appear to be using the same AI, they all tend to play the cards the same (if your playing novice you can select other than the basic decks and the novice uses those decks the same as the expert/proficient npcs)

the ones above novice just have access to more decks to select than the basic 4

which is actually funny because the basic 4 decks are all reasonably strong, the only basic deck the npcs are really bad with is hlaalu because they indiscriminately sacrifice every card they buy

Hmmm... I'm not so sure, although admittedly I've only ever played the experts. Now, and previously, I've noticed that the (expert) NPC will sacrifice all of their single gold cards in order to build their coin before picking any other card from the tavern, all the while leaving very worthwhile and powerful cards in the tavern for me to pick.

Since the update, this has stayed the same. After noticing these posts where people are saying the NPCs are now too strong, even novice, I thought I'd put it to the test. So, I've played a few novice games and the NPC will immediately choose powerful cards from the tavern, restricting my access to them. Not only this, but they are VERY proficient with the patrons - all patrons. In the past year, every time we get an update where the NPCs are supposed to a bit stronger, I have found that all that happens is that a new patron becomes the focus. For example, early on when ToT was released, the Crow patron was used by NPCs. In updates since then, they didn't use it at all, they would focus on another patron. Now, in these 'novice' matches, the NPCs know exactly what they're doing as far as patrons AND picking cards from the tavern goes.

Now, to be honest, I really don't have a problem with this, but just assign these advanced strategies to the 'expert' NPC and maybe adjust the reward to reflect a win against the more advanced AI?? What do you think?

Thanks for your reply.

i pretty much only play novice, and i wouldnt call them "proficient" with the patrons, they will just spam whichever one they have the ability to do so

in games with the crow, the npcs will frequently hit the crow patron with only 1-2 coins, gaining little or nothing and then locking them out of the patron

in games with hlaalu, the npcs will sacrifice every card they buy, so even if they get a good card, you 100% for sure know they are going to sacrifice it the next time it comes up in their draw, its insanely predictable

the novice npcs rarely use the treasury unless they havent burned their patron use, and dont have enough coin to buy anything from the tavern (though they prioritize buying from the tavern regardless of the type of card, for example if they have 2 coin left and the only 2 coin card is a black sacrament card to knock out an agent, they will buy it even if you have no agents available to knock out)

playing with rahjin and hlaalu is an excellent way to win against the npcs with the current AI, with hlaalu they sacrifice every card they buy and rarely use the treasury thus making their economy and power generation pretty low, with rahjin you can stall them further with bewilderments (the npc may occasionally use the rahjin patron on you now, but the npc will not prioritize getting rid of the bewilderments, if they buy like ragpicker or another card remover, they remove gold coin instead of bewilderments)

if the reach deck is in play and they get one or 2 of the agents that can remove cards from their deck, they will actually 100% just remove every card from their own deck

i was playing against an npc like that, they were actually beating me at the time (they got to around 32 prestige when i still had less than 10), and they had 3 of the reach agents to remove cards from their deck, when they got to around 32 prestige, they had no cards left in their deck except the 3 agents, and then the following turn they removed those agents and literally had 0 cards to play with, i was sitting there playing by myself effectively because at that point it was impossible for me to lose

Ilsabet wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i was playing against an npc like that, they were actually beating me at the time (they got to around 32 prestige when i still had less than 10), and they had 3 of the reach agents to remove cards from their deck, when they got to around 32 prestige, they had no cards left in their deck except the 3 agents, and then the following turn they removed those agents and literally had 0 cards to play with, i was sitting there playing by myself effectively because at that point it was impossible for me to lose

That's fantastic.

i was actually discussing that situation with a friend in game

if you removed all of the cards in your deck, it might as well be considered an auto-loss because you have nothing to play, so you couldnt gain coin, power, or prestige to do anything and at that point it would be impossible to win

against players it is very very unlikely to happen, but still technically possible

I quit playing ToT quite awhile ago but did the tournament quests on my new character just to get them out of the way. The NPC's are definitely more difficult to the point that it's not even remotely enjoyable.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

delenn35 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

delenn35 wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

Having played against Expert NPCs today after seeing how buffed up Novice and Proficient NPCs were, I'd put money down that ZOS accidentally applied the buff that was intended for Expert NPCs to Novice NPCs instead. The Expert NPCs still had the same old habits like spamming coin upgrades and largely ignoring patrons. I'm not complaining, since it's nice to get a daily done in less than an hour, but it would make way more sense for the Novice opponents to be the ones you can readily beat.

Yep, I definitely agree with this - there is no way the novice NPC is a 'novice'.

It does seem that expert and novice have been swapped.

from my experience playing the different level npcs, they all appear to be using the same AI, they all tend to play the cards the same (if your playing novice you can select other than the basic decks and the novice uses those decks the same as the expert/proficient npcs)

the ones above novice just have access to more decks to select than the basic 4

which is actually funny because the basic 4 decks are all reasonably strong, the only basic deck the npcs are really bad with is hlaalu because they indiscriminately sacrifice every card they buy

Hmmm... I'm not so sure, although admittedly I've only ever played the experts. Now, and previously, I've noticed that the (expert) NPC will sacrifice all of their single gold cards in order to build their coin before picking any other card from the tavern, all the while leaving very worthwhile and powerful cards in the tavern for me to pick.

Since the update, this has stayed the same. After noticing these posts where people are saying the NPCs are now too strong, even novice, I thought I'd put it to the test. So, I've played a few novice games and the NPC will immediately choose powerful cards from the tavern, restricting my access to them. Not only this, but they are VERY proficient with the patrons - all patrons. In the past year, every time we get an update where the NPCs are supposed to a bit stronger, I have found that all that happens is that a new patron becomes the focus. For example, early on when ToT was released, the Crow patron was used by NPCs. In updates since then, they didn't use it at all, they would focus on another patron. Now, in these 'novice' matches, the NPCs know exactly what they're doing as far as patrons AND picking cards from the tavern goes.

Now, to be honest, I really don't have a problem with this, but just assign these advanced strategies to the 'expert' NPC and maybe adjust the reward to reflect a win against the more advanced AI?? What do you think?

Thanks for your reply.

i pretty much only play novice, and i wouldnt call them "proficient" with the patrons, they will just spam whichever one they have the ability to do so

in games with the crow, the npcs will frequently hit the crow patron with only 1-2 coins, gaining little or nothing and then locking them out of the patron

in games with hlaalu, the npcs will sacrifice every card they buy, so even if they get a good card, you 100% for sure know they are going to sacrifice it the next time it comes up in their draw, its insanely predictable

the novice npcs rarely use the treasury unless they havent burned their patron use, and dont have enough coin to buy anything from the tavern (though they prioritize buying from the tavern regardless of the type of card, for example if they have 2 coin left and the only 2 coin card is a black sacrament card to knock out an agent, they will buy it even if you have no agents available to knock out)

playing with rahjin and hlaalu is an excellent way to win against the npcs with the current AI, with hlaalu they sacrifice every card they buy and rarely use the treasury thus making their economy and power generation pretty low, with rahjin you can stall them further with bewilderments (the npc may occasionally use the rahjin patron on you now, but the npc will not prioritize getting rid of the bewilderments, if they buy like ragpicker or another card remover, they remove gold coin instead of bewilderments)

if the reach deck is in play and they get one or 2 of the agents that can remove cards from their deck, they will actually 100% just remove every card from their own deck

i was playing against an npc like that, they were actually beating me at the time (they got to around 32 prestige when i still had less than 10), and they had 3 of the reach agents to remove cards from their deck, when they got to around 32 prestige, they had no cards left in their deck except the 3 agents, and then the following turn they removed those agents and literally had 0 cards to play with, i was sitting there playing by myself effectively because at that point it was impossible for me to lose

You know what? You are absolutely right!

I didn't notice, but I've now played a few rounds with the Hlaalu deck and they are sacrificing perfectly good agent cards.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i was playing against an npc like that, they were actually beating me at the time (they got to around 32 prestige when i still had less than 10), and they had 3 of the reach agents to remove cards from their deck, when they got to around 32 prestige, they had no cards left in their deck except the 3 agents, and then the following turn they removed those agents and literally had 0 cards to play with, i was sitting there playing by myself effectively because at that point it was impossible for me to lose

That's fantastic.

i was actually discussing that situation with a friend in game

if you removed all of the cards in your deck, it might as well be considered an auto-loss because you have nothing to play, so you couldnt gain coin, power, or prestige to do anything and at that point it would be impossible to win

against players it is very very unlikely to happen, but still technically possible

Strictly speaking, that depends on whether you had agents out that could produce power or coin. But yeah, if even those were removed, then you're right.

The other night I finally had a match where the Expert NPC eliminated every single card in its deck. I was behind by about 10 Prestige (something like 17 to 7) when I suddenly noticed that the NPC had only 1 card. I was like, "Wut?" I took my turn and then it was the NPC's turn. It played its card, which was 3 coins (the 2-cost Hlaalu card). One of the cards in the tavern was a 3-cost contract card that lets you remove one of your played cards-- so it bought that card, removed the Hlaalu card from its played cards pile, and was left with 0 cards. Needless to say, I came up from behind and won the match.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

The other night I finally had a match where the Expert NPC eliminated every single card in its deck. I was behind by about 10 Prestige (something like 17 to 7) when I suddenly noticed that the NPC had only 1 card. I was like, "Wut?" I took my turn and then it was the NPC's turn. It played its card, which was 3 coins (the 2-cost Hlaalu card). One of the cards in the tavern was a 3-cost contract card that lets you remove one of your played cards-- so it bought that card, removed the Hlaalu card from its played cards pile, and was left with 0 cards. Needless to say, I came up from behind and won the match.

this just further makes me believe that the NPC AI is identical regardless if its novice, proficient, or expert lol

the only real difference between the NPCs is the availability of decks

The few times that I've played the Novice NPCs, they were definitely using different logic than the Expert NPCs.

Right now, Expert NPCs will typically begin their turns by using the Treasury to convert a 1-coin card to a 2-coin card, then they'll buy a card from the Tavern if they can afford one. There are exceptions, such as if a very desirable card is in the Tavern that they can afford only if they skip using the Treasury-- but they'll leave some desirable cards untouched in favor of using the Treasury, so there's some kind of prioritizing in their logic which determines when to buy a desirable card versus when to use the Treasury. This is in sharp contrast to the pre-Necrom Expert NPCs, who put a higher priority on buying cards versus using the Treasury.

On the other hand, the logic of the Novice NPCs seems to be focused primarily on achieving a patron win, which I have not seen to be the case with the Expert NPCs.

The most problematic logic with all NPCs seems to be with respect to replacing cards in the Tavern and removing cards from their hands. In short, they are programmed to always replace or remove the maximum number of cards, regardless of whether or not it makes any sense.

"Replace up to 2 cards in the Tavern"-- they act like it says "You MUST replace 2 cards in the Tavern," and they are programmed to always replace whichever cards they consider to be the best ones (presumably to prevent their opponent from being able to buy those cards), even if they would have been able to buy one or both of those cards themselves during their turn.

"Remove up to 2 cards from your played pile"-- they act like it says "You MUST remove 2 cards from your played pile."

Also, they still continue to cheat when using the "Replace up to X cards in the Tavern," because theur programming allows them to replace cards which don't come up until after they've bought the card that lets them replace up to X cards. Players are not allowed to do that because if we buy a card that lets us replace cards from the Tavern, the game refuses to draw another card to replace the one we just bought until after we've selected the card(s) we want to replace (if any) and then confirmed our choice. In contrast, the game will go ahead a draw another card when the NPC buys a 'Replace" card, even before the NPC has made and confirmed its choice, which thereby allows it to replace the card that was just drawn.