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ADarklore wrote: »

So almost a 50/50 split between likes and dislikes... which means ZOS will not make or consider any changes to something when the player base (at least on the forums) is evenly split.

Personally, I enjoy HA weaving with Lightning staff... and LA weaving with Flame/Frost staff due to HA sometimes missing a moving target with them.

To be honest, 50:50 on these forums translates into something altogether different elsewhere, so I wouldn't be so sure about that. The ESO forums are disproportionately populated by hardcore players. If even *they* don't think animation cancelling (and it is animation cancelling) is the bee's knees, that's not a positive result.

That said, given that it became part of the game because it was too difficult to fix, perhaps not.

colossalvoids wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

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ADarklore wrote: »

So almost a 50/50 split between likes and dislikes... which means ZOS will not make or consider any changes to something when the player base (at least on the forums) is evenly split.

Personally, I enjoy HA weaving with Lightning staff... and LA weaving with Flame/Frost staff due to HA sometimes missing a moving target with them.

The ESO forums are disproportionately populated by hardcore players.

That was a thing long time ago, it doesn't look like it nowadays by any stretch. Might depend on what's "hardcore" mean for one though, skills or playtime.

Playtime, at least from what I've seen.

Northwold wrote: »

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ADarklore wrote: »

So almost a 50/50 split between likes and dislikes... which means ZOS will not make or consider any changes to something when the player base (at least on the forums) is evenly split.

Personally, I enjoy HA weaving with Lightning staff... and LA weaving with Flame/Frost staff due to HA sometimes missing a moving target with them.

To be honest, 50:50 on these forums translates into something altogether different elsewhere, so I wouldn't be so sure about that. The ESO forums are disproportionately populated by hardcore players. If even *they* don't think animation cancelling (and it is animation cancelling) is the bee's knees, that's not a positive result.

That said, given that it became part of the game because it was too difficult to fix, perhaps not.

I suspect that the "yes" votes come almost entirely from the PvE-only subgroup of that hardcore part of the playerbase. I can imagine that the weaving minigame is enjoyed by the DPS in PvE content as it makes the tank&spank situations maybe a bit more entertaining.
I can't imagine that most people enjoy it in PvP, particularly in melee situations. Here the unfair advantage of the combination of low latency together with the, ofc completely theoretically, macro usage is maybe more obvious.

I suspect that the "yes" votes come almost entirely from the PvE-only subgroup of that hardcore part of the playerbase. I can imagine that the weaving minigame is enjoyed by the DPS in PvE content as it makes the tank&spank situations maybe a bit more entertaining.
I can't imagine that most people enjoy it in PvP, particularly in melee situations. Here the unfair advantage of the combination of low latency together with the, ofc completely theoretically, macro usage is maybe more obvious.

Possibly. I think it would be interesting to see the background of the players giving different answers though. When I first heard people complain that you didn´t auto-attack "like in other MMOs" I didn´t get what the hell they were talking about at first. I haven´t played other MMOs but I have played several RTS games online. There, if anything, people complained about automation - like autoqueue in Age of Mythology which was removed for Age of Empires 3 and instead micro-managing unit creation was encouraged (start making one unit, queue up the other four some time later and make them as a batch).

For Starcraft 2, some players actually complained that you could select several buildings at once. No, I´m serious. It was comething of a controversy.

Werewolf is my personal go-to for simplicity. But mastering heavy attacks for a period of resource restore and LA weave for burst... yeah PvP would be (even more) pointless without that.

should be fixed the attack should happen at the end of the animation. If the animation is interrupted the intended attack never happens. End of bug, end of weaving.

ArchMikem wrote: »

Animation Canceling itself was not intended by the developers, therefore its a bug. Justify it all you want, fact is there was no intention for it to exist.

That is simply wrong, and it doesn't get truer by repeating it.

I'm not particularly for or against it, as long as the balance is done in a way that even the average player can participate in all content.

If they would remove it, I'd expect them to make light and heavy attacks more important somehow. Their damage would have to be more impactful, and the resources they restore maybe. As the game is, the average Skyrim fan who comes into ESO thinking that just spamming LMB is combat deals lackluster damage and takes ages to kill even overland mobs.

But I'm positive that most players will eventually figure out that using skills is more effective. Like, your stamina/magicka pool is still full, so why not keep pushing that button? And while you're at it (spamming buttons), might as well just press your mouse button in advance to queue for an attack and — oh, wow. What was that? Did the attack go together with the skill?

I discovered animation cancelling naturally as such, before I even knew it was a standard practice (I wasn't as proficient at it before, though). If there is another action you can do to increase your damage without compromising your rotation/your gameplay, then players will naturally find it and start using it.

ArchMikem wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

I feel like I'm the only one who never forgets that "Weaving", is called Animation Cancelling, which is NOT an intended mechanic, but a bug. An exploit that ZOS chose to adopt rather than patch, because too many players used it in their playstyle.

When literally everyone uses an exploit, is it still an exploit?

It's not a bug or an exploit, because it's the direct result of multiple deliberate design decisions by zos. Zos may not have anticipated the particulars of how weaving was adopted by players as the standard, but it's completely inside the boundaries zos created.

Animation Canceling itself was not intended by the developers, therefore its a bug. Justify it all you want, fact is there was no intention for it to exist.

Doubt it. If it was a bug, we would be breaking animations and skills back and forth all the time when weaving, but we're not. In fact, they have many times made fixes to problems related to weaving, while keeping weaving in the game. It's not some kind of major oversight, just a design decision for the pacing of the combat.

We have channeled skills in the game that lock you out of anything while active, so I see not real reason why developers would be unable to do the same to every skill in the game.

I'm undecided on this, so I'll just not vote at all. I know that I do NOT support auto attacks being implemented, as TES games have always had on-demand combat where you only attack if you do an action to attack. I don't want that line blurred and severed by making ESO's action combat more similar to other MMOs more generic combat systems.

That being said, I'm pretty neutral on light attack weaving. I was never taught how to do it, I just started to do it myself because it gave me something to press/do in between my abilities. So in that sense it's satisfying to do, but at the same time I can understand if people would prefer to just see it gone. Maybe reducing the global cooldown of abilities + a general resource cost reduction across the board would keep action fast-paced and give our hands something to do, while not forcing us to burn through our resources so much.

kadar wrote: »

ESO is a street fighter in MMO garb. Reactive, fast-paced combat that involves timing, is everything.

Auto attacking is a snooze fest of a mechanic. No one is here to play a WoW knockoff.

No it isn't, I wish it was. In Street Fighter, you can't just cancel any move and still get the damage for free. Every time you decide to push a button you have to consider the cost, and when you find an opening, convert it into the most damage possible.
ESO's light attack weaving is nothing like that. It's just another button you push before you use a skill. It's completely repetitive, not reactive at all, and the little timing involved isn't even remotely comparable to Street Fighter combos. Street FIghter also isn't necessarily fast-paced, the high variance in gameplay speed is a huge part of the challenge, shifting from strategic footsies to explosive combos and vice versa. In contrast you could set a metronome to ESO's combat.

Even outside of weaving, the reactive, timing-based aspects of ESO's combat have been watered down considerably since release, to the point where they are largely irrelevant and certainly not "everything" in most content.
I wish I could play the game you describe, but it's not ESO.

Speaking of, Street Fighter 6 releases a few days before the Necrom chapter. I'll probably get that one instead, Lily looks interesting and I like Cammy's new design.

Saint-Ange wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

You're confusing ac and weaving here. Second one wasn't anticipated, but was embraced after the beta. First one is the reason combat works as is, where you can block and roll dodge on demand, read: be reactive.

wait, when you cancel an animation while dodging or blocking the damage is still registred?

The large majority of ESO's skills, including light attacks, are "instant" (I mean, it says so on the tool tip that everyone totally reads) - as soon as you press the key / click the button / do whatever you do on a controller, it goes off. It may have a travel time until it lands on the target, but you cast it instantly. That's the whole point.
The animation is just there for eye candy, and can be cut short when something more important is happening, like rolldodging. You don't cancel the animation "while" dodging, you cancel it by dodging.

So requesting that the animation be played fully until a skill is registered, is essentially lobbying to have every. single. skill. and. attack. be a channeled attack with a cast time. And I'm pretty sure that if you ask it like that, not too many people would be on board.

There are many reasons why a person wouldn't be able to weave, and that's unfortunate. However, the people who say "weaving is braindead" have either:

1) No idea what they're talking about
2) Aren't a player that participates in any content that's even remotely challenging

Weaving is basically the only skill progression one can have in this game. Progression is systematically horizontal if LA or HA weren't a thing. Lay out your bar, press skills in order of left to right as they appear on your bar, that takes maybe 10 minutes to learn how to do it. When you add weaving, not only does your damage increase significantly, but it shows that you as a player have fundamentally learned how to master the combat in this game.

The people who complain about AC are being disingenuous as well. Most of them participate in animation cancelling without them ever realizing that they do. As an example, imagine you're fighting a world boss. You press one of your skills to do damage or you press a heal, at the same time it is doing a heavy attack that could kill you. You instinctively block, stopping the animation of the attack/heal but still doing damage to the boss. (Technically they might not be on the same GCD) You animation cancelled your attack. Imagine you couldn't do that. You are forced to go through with the animation of the skill you use and then get hit with a heavy because you were stuck in the animation of whatever skill you cast. Would dying in that way upset you?

Sorry if this was a ramble or aggressively typed out, this is a topic I'm extremely passionate about and I don't like when people don't understand the fundamentals are against it.

Visually, weaving looks very janky. However, I really like the increased APM. I have tried to play a character without weaving, and it just feels awful. I would probably not continue to play ESO if weaving was removed instead of being polished.

Faulgor wrote: »

kadar wrote: »

ESO is a street fighter in MMO garb. Reactive, fast-paced combat that involves timing, is everything.

Auto attacking is a snooze fest of a mechanic. No one is here to play a WoW knockoff.

No it isn't, I wish it was. In Street Fighter, you can't just cancel any move and still get the damage for free. Every time you decide to push a button you have to consider the cost, and when you find an opening, convert it into the most damage possible.
ESO's light attack weaving is nothing like that. It's just another button you push before you use a skill. It's completely repetitive, not reactive at all, and the little timing involved isn't even remotely comparable to Street Fighter combos. Street FIghter also isn't necessarily fast-paced, the high variance in gameplay speed is a huge part of the challenge, shifting from strategic footsies to explosive combos and vice versa. In contrast you could set a metronome to ESO's combat.

Even outside of weaving, the reactive, timing-based aspects of ESO's combat have been watered down considerably since release, to the point where they are largely irrelevant and certainly not "everything" in most content.
I wish I could play the game you describe, but it's not ESO.

Speaking of, Street Fighter 6 releases a few days before the Necrom chapter. I'll probably get that one instead, Lily looks interesting and I like Cammy's new design.

I'm exaggerating. But the similarity, especially in certain types of content e.g. dueling, is definitely there. You're right that LA weaving is simple, but it's just a single part of the action priority system that makes ESO's combat fast paced and reactive in comparison to other MMOs like WoW (OP mentions auto attacking /vomit).

Block, dodge, swap, and bash have priority over all abilities which have priority over light and heavy attacks. IDK what context you're playing in where this system priority is "watered down" and "largely irrelevant" though. In the contexts I'm playing in these days failing to react properly to damage or combo my own damage on enemies means losing. It's why I'm still playing this game after so many years.