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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Do you actually enjoy the light/heavy attack weaving mechanic within ESO's combat system?
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Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YesAgenericname wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »propertyOfUndefined wrote: »
It's always felt like a bug to me, which the devs eventually called a "feature".
I'll also add that I think it's the biggest barrier to entry for most players. Through the years, I've gotten many of my friends to play the game, but none of them really stuck around for endgame because weaving seemed weird to them. Note that some of those players were veterans of other MMOs, albeit of the tab-target variety.
Just my honest opinion...
Weaving is only a percentage of the DPS capability in this game. Like any MMORPG, a good build and reasonable player skill make up the difference between a good DPS and one that struggles. The difference between the top DPS in this game and the average DPS would be very similar if weaving was removed.
Sorry, but I have to disagree here. Pre LA nerfs, weaving was maybe 15% DPS. People showed many times on the forums parses (not HA builds) with 100k plus and no LAs whatsoever. There is a lot more room than that between the top and your average player. Weaving gets way too much credit for the difference between your average joe and those pushing leaderboards.
-Maintaining pace of your GCD to as close to 1 second as possible
-Dynamically managing your DOT buff timers*
-Proper opening rotations and pre buffs
-Proper execute rotations, knowing what to recast and what to let expire*
-Ultimate and Potions management
-Positioning during a fight to maximize cleave*
-The ability to DPS while moving, aka respecting mechanics*
And that doesnt even get into the difference between a good group and a bad group. Certainly, weaving makes some of those things a little more difficult, but if they removed LAs from the game tomorrow, their would still be a massive gap in DPS in this game.
And here is the funny/sad part. Yes they nerfed LA damage, but the skill gap has actually widened since update 35 or whenever it was. We now have so many freaking DOT timers, that rotations have actually become more difficult and it shows, despite LAs being less of a piece of the proverbial DPS pie.
* These in particular have gotten harder lately.
I do not see any disagreement here.
As I noted, a good build and reasonable player skill make up the difference between a good DPS and one that struggles and you note multiple points that are essential parts of a good build and player skill.
Exactly what I was saying because if they are only missing that 15% from LAs they are doing pretty good. If they struggle with the points you make, they are lacking in player skill and maybe also with having a decent build.
I think the point of contention is specifically what separates an average dps from a top dps. They can certainly speak for themselves though. The issue that I see with that is LAs may separate 100k from 110k or 120k, but not 60k from 100k.
Above a certain point, sure, but below that point, theres more missing than LAs. They seem to be more of a scapegoat. An example, what would be detrimental to parse, being 10% slower than the GCD or missing 50% of the LAs?
If the average DPS were higher, sure.
@Agenericname
Clearly we agree as we basically said the same thing but with different words. Thx for further noting this.
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Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NoNot very familiar with history of DPS in ESO, but I typed in youtube "eso dps 2014" and was very surprised, no not by numbers like "1000 dps build" (apparently in those days it was impressive damage lol), but approach to dealing damage: they didn't use LA weaving at all. They just... spam skills and thats it )
Apparently LA weaving was some kind of side effect, maybe even a bug that they didn't change.
The whole "animation canceling is a bug" thing really needs to be seen in the context of ESO at the time.
Yes, canceling animations because defensive combat abilities like block, dodge, bash, etc take priority was always intended.
What was not intended was that this would be used to create fluent offensive combat rotations with LA weaving - because you weren't expected to use your skills on global cooldown. You weren't even supposed to have the resources for that!
In the downtime, you were expected to use your base combat abilities, chiefly medium/heavy attacks, which at the time didn't return resources either (except for Restoration Staves).
But people quickly figured out that with weaving, they could increase their DPS substantially and didn't have to rely on their resources as much (like, 6 months after release weaving was the standard).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s6EeG3eugg
So ESO's combat was this strange combination of restricting resources, with the intent to make combat more reactive and resource- rather than cooldown-based; yet this very restriction forced people into using their light attacks before every skil for the resource-free damage it provided, giving birth to weaving-focused rotations that weren't intended.
Because this weaving playstyle became wide-spread, ZOS figured this is how people wanted to play, and began to encourage it.
Maybe it was always inevitable, but I prefered the slower, more resource-based and strategic early combat to the hectic weave-fest players eventually developed.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.6 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoNot very familiar with history of DPS in ESO, but I typed in youtube "eso dps 2014" and was very surprised, no not by numbers like "1000 dps build" (apparently in those days it was impressive damage lol), but approach to dealing damage: they didn't use LA weaving at all. They just... spam skills and thats it )
Apparently LA weaving was some kind of side effect, maybe even a bug that they didn't change.
The whole "animation canceling is a bug" thing really needs to be seen in the context of ESO at the time.
Yes, canceling animations because defensive combat abilities like block, dodge, bash, etc take priority was always intended.
What was not intended was that this would be used to create fluent offensive combat rotations with LA weaving - because you weren't expected to use your skills on global cooldown. You weren't even supposed to have the resources for that!
In the downtime, you were expected to use your base combat abilities, chiefly medium/heavy attacks, which at the time didn't return resources either (except for Restoration Staves).
But people quickly figured out that with weaving, they could increase their DPS substantially and didn't have to rely on their resources as much (like, 6 months after release weaving was the standard).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s6EeG3eugg
So ESO's combat was this strange combination of restricting resources, with the intent to make combat more reactive and resource- rather than cooldown-based; yet this very restriction forced people into using their light attacks before every skil for the resource-free damage it provided, giving birth to weaving-focused rotations that weren't intended.
Because this weaving playstyle became wide-spread, ZOS figured this is how people wanted to play, and began to encourage it.
Maybe it was always inevitable, but I prefered the slower, more resource-based and strategic early combat to the hectic weave-fest players eventually developed.
Swallow Soul as spammable? what is this? 2014?
Oh wait...0 -
Luth7✭✭✭NoFrom JSH about ESO combat in general, but probably also related to the topic specifically:
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Anifaas✭✭✭✭✭NoNo, I think it is a detriment to this game on PC. It seems like a console-derived mechanism hastily forced upon a PC.1 -
SerafinaWaterstar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YesNo, I think it is a detriment to this game on PC. It seems like a console-derived mechanism hastily forced upon a PC.
How? This game is primarily designed & implemented for PCs, then ported to consoles.
LA weaving is fine - I think the main thing that made it click for me is that it does not need to be done as fast as you think it should be done 🙂
And please dear god no to auto attack.1 -
AScarlato✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoHate it. I preferred mmos that auto attacked and I spent my time focusing on skills with cast times.
I don’t enjoy clicking constantly and hurts I fear repetitive motion injury in the long run. Will probably use the new mythic next expansion for those I don’t use Oakensoul on.8 -
JMadFour✭✭✭✭✭NoFrom JSH about ESO combat in general, but probably also related to the topic specifically:
The way he describes ESO is the way I feel about EVE Online.1 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭Noabsolutely hating it, have always hated it very much
Same and it appears, zos answer to not weaving is being ruined in the recent patch. I love the lore and world and I’ve been playing this series since Daggerfall but I can’t stand weaving it’s the worst combat it feels more like a combo fighting game than a rpg. Many people leave the game because they don’t like the combat after trying. They had An answer to not and now are ruining it.
They never should have allowed this bug to be a thing in the first place it should have been patched out.6 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭NoFrom JSH about ESO combat in general, but probably also related to the topic specifically:
The way he describes ESO is the way I feel about EVE Online.
He’s right they should have never done mmo combat and went with Bethesda style combat where it’s full on hack and slash where to can do abilities like shouts in Skyrim but not “weaving “ them like you are playing some weird Asian fighting rhythm game.
It plays more like guitar hero than it does a elder scrolls game.Edited by isadoraisacat on 17 April 2023 22:206 -
CrashTest✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoMeh, I can do it really well, but I can't say I enjoy it. It's just something I have to do to play at top tier level.0 -
Luth7✭✭✭Noisadoraisacat wrote: »He’s right they should have never done mmo combat and went with Bethesda style combat where it’s full on hack and slash where to can do abilities like shouts in Skyrim but not “weaving “ them like you are playing some weird Asian fighting rhythm game.
It plays more like guitar hero than it does a elder scrolls game.
I think them trying to do elder scrolls single player combat in an MMO is what led, besides other things, to the situation the combat is in.
It seems like a weird amalgam of "must feel like an elder scrolls game + must be console/controller compatible + must work in MMO situations/mass combat + must feel fast paced".
I'm pretty sure some combinations in there can't work with each other.SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »No, I think it is a detriment to this game on PC. It seems like a console-derived mechanism hastily forced upon a PC.
How? This game is primarily designed & implemented for PCs, then ported to consoles.
LA weaving is fine - I think the main thing that made it click for me is that it does not need to be done as fast as you think it should be done 🙂
And please dear god no to auto attack.
When you plan to release a game on PC and consoles, it doesn't matter in what order you release the clients. The limiting platform always becomes the maximum you can do when you design the game. For example, controllers vs keyboard and mouse -> the controllers have way more limited input possibilities, therefore the whole combat system is limited by them. I'm aware that you can also play with controller on PC, though it would not make any sense to limit the whole combat system in an MMO, just to get controller support for a PC-only game.
It could be the same with the loading screens and limited hardware capabilities of consoles.
As a disclaimer, this isn't hate against consoles.
Also, as far as i remember, the only people who mentioned auto attacks in this thread have been the ones who like and defend the light/heavy attack system. I don't think anyone asked for that to be implemented, so i'm not sure where that strange fear comes from. An altered L/H attack combat doesn't necessarily lead to auto attack.2 -
Jammy420✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes
Even on controller its super easy, I have played with controller on pc since it was implemented. Its god awful easy.SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »No, I think it is a detriment to this game on PC. It seems like a console-derived mechanism hastily forced upon a PC.
How? This game is primarily designed & implemented for PCs, then ported to consoles.
LA weaving is fine - I think the main thing that made it click for me is that it does not need to be done as fast as you think it should be done 🙂
And please dear god no to auto attack.Loves_guars wrote: »First off, lag, I live in the south hemisphere, so weaving is extremely annoying and feels laggy all the time. Second, it is clear that it was never the intention to make it a feature, it was a bug or whatever you wanna call it that they did not fixed.
There is no official tutorial for any new or casual or any player that doesn't google guides.
Overall it just feels so crappy and unintended.
It was literally in the letter for the future of the game as an intrigal part of the combat. It is 100 percent intended.
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adriant1978✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoI don't like it much because I'm not very good at doing it.
That said I appreciate that it's just a side-effect of the way combat works and couldn't be removed without fundamentally changing how the game feels.
That also said, I preferred it when it was a side-effect or bug or call it what you will that good players could "exploit" to up their DPS and I dislike how abilities and sets have been added and tweaked to explicitly interact with it as a mechanic, creating a feeling for those of us who are not good at weaving that we aren't playing the game "properly".4 -
aurelius_fx✭✭✭Nonope. animation cancelling makes your character looks like they're having a seizure, and clicking every second does not makes combat any more fast paced, you still need to position yourself, place aoes, worry about class mechanics, roll dodge, block and heal either way. i want to concern about bashing baddies heads, not memorizing a metronome. just make it so you get resources that you get from LAs from just hitting any direct damage skill, i find it so weird that people use "grim focus" and "you get ult/resources back" as an excuse
combat could also use being a little less floaty in general7 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭Noisadoraisacat wrote: »He’s right they should have never done mmo combat and went with Bethesda style combat where it’s full on hack and slash where to can do abilities like shouts in Skyrim but not “weaving “ them like you are playing some weird Asian fighting rhythm game.
It plays more like guitar hero than it does a elder scrolls game.
I think them trying to do elder scrolls single player combat in an MMO is what led, besides other things, to the situation the combat is in.
It seems like a weird amalgam of "must feel like an elder scrolls game + must be console/controller compatible + must work in MMO situations/mass combat + must feel fast paced".
I'm pretty sure some combinations in there can't work with each other.SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »No, I think it is a detriment to this game on PC. It seems like a console-derived mechanism hastily forced upon a PC.
How? This game is primarily designed & implemented for PCs, then ported to consoles.
LA weaving is fine - I think the main thing that made it click for me is that it does not need to be done as fast as you think it should be done 🙂
And please dear god no to auto attack.
When you plan to release a game on PC and consoles, it doesn't matter in what order you release the clients. The limiting platform always becomes the maximum you can do when you design the game. For example, controllers vs keyboard and mouse -> the controllers have way more limited input possibilities, therefore the whole combat system is limited by them. I'm aware that you can also play with controller on PC, though it would not make any sense to limit the whole combat system in an MMO, just to get controller support for a PC-only game.
It could be the same with the loading screens and limited hardware capabilities of consoles.
As a disclaimer, this isn't hate against consoles.
Also, as far as i remember, the only people who mentioned auto attacks in this thread have been the ones who like and defend the light/heavy attack system. I don't think anyone asked for that to be implemented, so i'm not sure where that strange fear comes from. An altered L/H attack combat doesn't necessarily lead to auto attack.
They could have literally made the combat like Skyrim. And just had “skills” work the same as shouts. Especially shouts in Skyrim are “skills”.
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Kiyonami✭✭✭NoI would like to know how to enjoy light/heavy attack weaving with a constant ping of 300-350ms...
Weaving separates the players into 2 groups, those who have access to all the content of the game (since they can show more DPS), and those who are "overboard" (not only because of ping, or they don't know how, or etc...). I don't mind weaving, but it's not fair, because that creates a gap between the players. The saddest thing is that it's ok almost for everyone.Edited by Kiyonami on 18 April 2023 18:165 -
Mesite✭✭✭✭NoI have to admit I'd been playing for a couple of years before I realised you didn't just click as quickly as you could to defeat enemies, and a couple more years before I found out about GCD. I used to just play without listening to people who mentioned training.
I click a lot less often now. I also managed to join the ranks of the average DPS once I concentrated on how it works.0 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NoI would like to know how to enjoy light/heavy attack weaving with a constant ping of 300-350ms...
Weaving separates the players into 2 groups, those who have access to all the content of the game (since they can show more DPS), and those who are "overboard" (not only because of ping, or they don't know how, or etc...). I don't mind weaving, but it's not fair, because that creates a gap between the players. The saddest thing is that it's ok almost for everyone.
Try 700-750 ping normally, and frequently more than that. Oakensoul 1bar non-HA build does help (I don't like HA, not fun), but it's still a crapshoot whether I kill something or not.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....2 -
Stanelis✭✭✭NoI hate the weaving mechanics, it feels unatural. It s what made me stop the game a few years ago.2
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FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes but animations need an update. The lighting and resto staff have better animations then fire and frost staff.
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Beilin_Balreis_Colcan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Same here, I've never had any success with LA weaving, given that my average ping is about 400 always. I'm not sure my wrist muscles could handle LA weaving for a long period, either.I would like to know how to enjoy light/heavy attack weaving with a constant ping of 300-350ms...
Weaving separates the players into 2 groups, those who have access to all the content of the game (since they can show more DPS), and those who are "overboard" (not only because of ping, or they don't know how, or etc...). I don't mind weaving, but it's not fair, because that creates a gap between the players. The saddest thing is that it's ok almost for everyone.
Try 700-750 ping normally, and frequently more than that. Oakensoul 1bar non-HA build does help (I don't like HA, not fun), but it's still a crapshoot whether I kill something or not.PC(Steam) / EU / play from Melbourne, Australia / avg ping 3901 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No
Same here, I've never had any success with LA weaving, given that my average ping is about 400 always. I'm not sure my wrist muscles could handle LA weaving for a long period, either.I would like to know how to enjoy light/heavy attack weaving with a constant ping of 300-350ms...
Weaving separates the players into 2 groups, those who have access to all the content of the game (since they can show more DPS), and those who are "overboard" (not only because of ping, or they don't know how, or etc...). I don't mind weaving, but it's not fair, because that creates a gap between the players. The saddest thing is that it's ok almost for everyone.
Try 700-750 ping normally, and frequently more than that. Oakensoul 1bar non-HA build does help (I don't like HA, not fun), but it's still a crapshoot whether I kill something or not.
Yes, that's another issue. I don't actually have wrist problems - but damn my hands get tired! My hands are very small, with short fingers, and keyboarding combat in this game is - difficult to say the least. Also, my reflexes are crap (mid 70s - not going to get any better).
I'll do whatever I have to in order to continue with Oakensoul 1 bar non-HA. Hope it doesn't get nerfed to hellangone..... *sigh*______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....8 -
Bodycounter✭✭✭✭NoHard for me to decide between a simple yes or no because i really like manual auto attacks in this game. I can never go back to games like WoW with their dull passive combat. What i don't like is the weaving system itself. Some animations feel really clunky and the system just eats some of my inputs.
Everything should feel and look smoother, auto attacks should look intended within the system. Currently you interupt every real animation with an awkward different animation which visually gives my character seizures. Im constantly reminded that light attack weaving wasn't an intentional decision by the developers.
Edited by Bodycounter on 20 April 2023 06:501 -
TheForFeeF✭✭✭YesWeaving is what makes this MMO unique and not another WoW clone. Please don't beg for this games combat mechanics to change, otherwise we'll end up with another RuneScape and Evolution of Combat situation, where it completely ruined the game.
Just accept that you're not good at it and either try to improve or move on. A game shouldn't have to change around you and your playing capabilities.
If you try it and say its too difficult, you haven't tried it enough. That is the honest truth. Weaving is not difficult at all. It seems daunting at first, yes, but once you get used to it, its second nature. If you've tried it for like a week, and still think its too difficult, just accept that maybe your combat mechanical skills aren't as good as they need to be for this game. It is blunt, but it is true. However, I understand that some people have disabilities that stop them from doing this, which is where the Heavy Attack weaving and Oakensoul comes in to play.
If you don't like it, simply find a new MMO with a combat system that you like. If you want to stick around and enjoy this game, accept what the combat system is like.4 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭Once again, here's another example of how Oakensoul has divided the community. On one side, we have players who want to improve and demonstrate that they are superior to those who may not have the time or ability to progress. On the other side, we have players who simply want to enjoy the game without worrying about being better than others. Unfortunately, Zenimax assume that players will focus solely on improving their skills rather than enjoying the game. It's a disappointing reality.
In the end, no matter how skilled certain players are in their rotations, they are not rewarded for being the best. And the only ones who will be disadvantaged are those who focus on playing the game and seeking greater challenges in the HMs.
Edited by Tradewind on 19 April 2023 08:152 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭NoOnce again, here's another example of how Oakensoul has divided the community. On one side, we have players who want to improve and demonstrate that they are superior to those who may not have the time or ability to progress. On the other side, we have players who simply want to enjoy the game without worrying about being better than others. Unfortunately, Zenimax assume that players will focus solely on improving their skills rather than enjoying the game. It's a disappointing reality.
In the end, no matter how skilled certain players are in their rotations, they are not rewarded for being the best. And the only ones who will be disadvantaged are those who focus on playing the game and seeking greater challenges in the HMs.
It’s only divided because elitist gatekeepers want to keep it that way. Personally I don’t care that some 2 bar parse god is better than me. As long as I can enjoy the game with my group and solo I’m good to go. And the vast majority that is using a causal build feels that way.10 -
Riddari✭✭✭NoNo. I would prefer LA to have some type of tactical usage rather than just spamming them in between skills. I think HA could be sped up slightly but i enjoy how they knock enemies down if you interrupt them. Bash and HA both have reasons to use them (beyond spamming HA with current silly builds lol)
LA needs something more interesting. As is its very boring and feels weightless like I'm just waving a sword shaped wand in between using my skills.
A combo system might be cool. Probably won't ever happen with the state of things but would me more interesting.4 -
Saint-Ange✭✭✭No
[snip]TheForFeeF wrote: »..
Just accept that you're not good at it and either try to improve or move on
..
you and people like you keep telling us 'git gud'
while us we do not want to use animation canceling and we want it gone
because we like video games hence animations
because we'd prefer to avoid carpal tunnel syndroma
we're the majority, it shows here already but if ZoS polled all the players through a mass mailing then we'd be the vast majority
so you're the one that can leave while we stay. good ridance!
and it's not about changing the game, it's about fixing an exploit that has too long been overlooked. to make the game better, fairer, and open the gate to hundreds of thousands people that would love to play ESO but refuse animation canceling.
exploits and cheats have always been a big no no in gaming culture and ZoS crossed the red line by making it a feature. Funcom understood the uproar about Age of Conan and fixed the combo weaving .. too late for the game but in time to rebuild their reputation.
it's time Zenimax rebuild its reputation because it is seriously stained with that 'feature' [snip]
[Edited for baiting and bashing]Edited by ZOS_Phoenix on 20 April 2023 02:178
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQZm3eawMis