Do you actually enjoy the light/heavy attack weaving mechanic within ESO's combat system?

Agenericname

No

Amottica wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

It's always felt like a bug to me, which the devs eventually called a "feature".

I'll also add that I think it's the biggest barrier to entry for most players. Through the years, I've gotten many of my friends to play the game, but none of them really stuck around for endgame because weaving seemed weird to them. Note that some of those players were veterans of other MMOs, albeit of the tab-target variety.

Just my honest opinion...

Weaving is only a percentage of the DPS capability in this game. Like any MMORPG, a good build and reasonable player skill make up the difference between a good DPS and one that struggles. The difference between the top DPS in this game and the average DPS would be very similar if weaving was removed.

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. Pre LA nerfs, weaving was maybe 15% DPS. People showed many times on the forums parses (not HA builds) with 100k plus and no LAs whatsoever. There is a lot more room than that between the top and your average player. Weaving gets way too much credit for the difference between your average joe and those pushing leaderboards.

-Maintaining pace of your GCD to as close to 1 second as possible
-Dynamically managing your DOT buff timers*
-Proper opening rotations and pre buffs
-Proper execute rotations, knowing what to recast and what to let expire*
-Ultimate and Potions management
-Positioning during a fight to maximize cleave*
-The ability to DPS while moving, aka respecting mechanics*

And that doesnt even get into the difference between a good group and a bad group. Certainly, weaving makes some of those things a little more difficult, but if they removed LAs from the game tomorrow, their would still be a massive gap in DPS in this game.

And here is the funny/sad part. Yes they nerfed LA damage, but the skill gap has actually widened since update 35 or whenever it was. We now have so many freaking DOT timers, that rotations have actually become more difficult and it shows, despite LAs being less of a piece of the proverbial DPS pie.

* These in particular have gotten harder lately.

I do not see any disagreement here.

As I noted, a good build and reasonable player skill make up the difference between a good DPS and one that struggles and you note multiple points that are essential parts of a good build and player skill.

Exactly what I was saying because if they are only missing that 15% from LAs they are doing pretty good. If they struggle with the points you make, they are lacking in player skill and maybe also with having a decent build.

I think the point of contention is specifically what separates an average dps from a top dps. They can certainly speak for themselves though. The issue that I see with that is LAs may separate 100k from 110k or 120k, but not 60k from 100k.

Above a certain point, sure, but below that point, theres more missing than LAs. They seem to be more of a scapegoat. An example, what would be detrimental to parse, being 10% slower than the GCD or missing 50% of the LAs?

If the average DPS were higher, sure.

Varana

Yes

NettleCarrier wrote: »

I think most people playing this game are still doing so because they like the way combat is and accept this as part of it. The results of this are likely skewed as a consequence of that. If you look anywhere outside of this forum or the subreddit, you'll notice that the game is heavily criticized because of light attack weaving. If we as a community want the game to prosper, we need to consider those people that feel that way.

Though I get the distinct feeling that that criticism is not because of how LA weaving actually works, but because it has become kind of fashionable to blame everything you could think of on some strawman based on a vague idea of it.

MmmmTofu

No

No. Attacks that do not complete should not do damage.

I enjoy the active combat system such as Soul series, King of fighters, Street fighters etc., where the combat is a decisions of trade-offs. Stronger attacks have a longer spin-up, so light attacks are used to lead the stronger attacks into combos, such as, Ryu's light punch + light punch + Shoryuken, or DS3's drang hammer L1 + full weapon art. Many of the attacks in KoF can cancel half-way, where the player can then block/dodge or connect with another attack into a stronger combo. In those titles, if the players make a mistake and use the wrong action at the wrong time, they are locked in with the animation, giving the opponents chance to attack. There are weaving/animation cancelling in those games, but none of them register damage for attacks that does not complete the animation.

ESO's combat system completely breaks this concept. It brings the skill level lower since there is no trade-off or any decision-making. One can squeeze heavy attack + skill + bash all into one twitching action, the opponents don't see most of attacks but get hit by all of them.

Snamyap

No

It's not that I dislike the mechanic persee but I personally can't get it to work properly on all skills, just doesn't flow and feels awkward. Main reason why I don't use surprise attack on my main, don't like playing warden at all and never got into playing a templar with puncturing strikes. /shrug

ApoAlaia

No

I personally preferred the combat system of FFXI, where it was all about timing, coordination and chaining the right combos.

Said that is probably considered sorely outdated now, like yours truly.

Heromofo

No

Well light weaving is not exactly possible when playing on a console from Australia with an avg of 400 + ping and packet loss. The combat in ESO has always felt clunky and is definitely one of my least favourites among gaming. Just a shame that Elder Scrolls is probably my favourite universe to explore.

Anifaas

No

No because it is physically painful to have to mash the mouse button so much. Also, I really dislike bar switching because intermittently it doesn't work. I have a keyboard full of buttons but I can only access 6 abilities at a time because of console-focused design. It is such an artificial limitation on PC, it borders on the absurd.

Saint-Ange

No

[snip]

WaywardArgonian

Yes

Yes. ESO's combat is one of the reasons why I play ESO and not some other MMO.

Destai

No

No.

It's very painful to maintain on consoles. On top of it, I don't find that it performs well. It just feels clunky to me when it works, and there's times where LA doesn't even happen due to lag. I love the skills in this game, but LA weaving is something I'd love to see reworked.

Faulgor

No

Enjoy, no, definitely not. Although I don't mind it either.

It's just one of those things you do. Whether I push 2 buttons or 1 to deal damage isn't really an issue for me, but it's not fun. It's not engaging. It makes rotations more repetitive, metronome-like activites, which might be helpful for some but it's pretty boring to me.

I prefer reactive combat, blocking or dodging in time, interrupting, exploiting. You know, the things ESO's combat was actually built around, not the messy happenstance that is light attack weaving.

Ashryn

No

No.

Physical pain and my poor internet speed make using the light/heavy attack to be totally useless.

JMadFour

No

LA Weaving is dumb. It makes your character look dumb. and it feels dumb to do it.

But it is a part of the game that ZOS can't or won't ever remove, so it is what it is and arguing about it is pointless.

LunaFlora

No

it sucks because it requires fast clicking and no lag

Charon_on_Vacation

No

i think it's a nice mechanic while you are getting used to it, because it gives you something else to do, but when it becomes muscle memory, it doesn't really matter that much anymore. the click just happens.
can't talk about the big issue i have with it, because the post will get deleted if i do.

ArchMikem

No

I feel like I'm the only one who never forgets that "Weaving", is called Animation Cancelling, which is NOT an intended mechanic, but a bug. An exploit that ZOS chose to adopt rather than patch, because too many players used it in their playstyle.

When literally everyone uses an exploit, is it still an exploit?

Luth7

No

I play ESO despite its combat, not because of it.
I don't know why people started to call the animation cancelling of light attacks "weaving", maybe because it sounds more mystical and skillful. Animation cancelling is the equivalent of learning a poem by heart until you are able to do it blindfolded but when i read people praising it, i get the impression they think it's chess. Ironically, to fulfill such basic, repetitive tasks, we originally invented computers.
I think if light/heavy attacks didn't exist, it would free up one of the scarce controller keys and we could have one ability slot more on each bar (i guess that's the limiting factor, but i don't play with controller).

Finedaible

They should remove the snare from heavy attacks like they almost did before. That's the only thing I would change.

kringled_1

ArchMikem wrote: »

I feel like I'm the only one who never forgets that "Weaving", is called Animation Cancelling, which is NOT an intended mechanic, but a bug. An exploit that ZOS chose to adopt rather than patch, because too many players used it in their playstyle.

When literally everyone uses an exploit, is it still an exploit?

It's not a bug or an exploit, because it's the direct result of multiple deliberate design decisions by zos. Zos may not have anticipated the particulars of how weaving was adopted by players as the standard, but it's completely inside the boundaries zos created.

Turtle_Bot

Yes

Yes and no.

I love the concept since ESO's combat would feel quite slow without it, but at the same time, as someone whos ping doesn't allow for reliable weaving, I also hate that so much damage potential is tied to it.

Hurbster

No

I'm on a waiting list to have carpal tunnel operations on both wrists, so I'm having loads of fun with weaving.

TaSheen

No

Hurbster wrote: »

I'm on a waiting list to have carpal tunnel operations on both wrists, so I'm having loads of fun with weaving.

Oh, gosh. That's not good, I'm so sorry you're dealing with that. I hope the waiting list isn't too long.... My sister had to have both wrists done about 20 years back now. She wasn't happy about it, but now she's in a much better place.

irswat

Yes

Wouldn't want to play without it. Ive turned back from other mmo because I am in love with eso combat

MidniteOwl1913

No

I don't even have that much lag and it affects me.

Dojohoda

No

I light attack weave everywhere in the game, because I primarily play a nightblade and light attacks are part of the nightblade kit. My hand gets tired. My newest mouse, a different brand, is too big for my hand which makes combat clunky.

I'm used to light attack weaving. I don't dislike it but I don't enjoy it either.

kadar

Yes

ESO is a street fighter in MMO garb. Reactive, fast-paced combat that involves timing, is everything.

Auto attacking is a snooze fest of a mechanic. No one is here to play a WoW knockoff.

Runefang

No

I do it, but I think there are better ways to keep players active in combat. HA builds are slow AF and boring so I’m glad we don’t all do low APM builds.

Trejgon

Yes

Reading through that thread I see alot of people confusing weaving with animation cancelling.
LA weaving, is just the subject of tossing light attack in between your skill casts. Perfect weaving means you have light attack in between every skill cast, and still manage to get skills cast on gcd. Perfect weaving is achievable by the notion that light attacks have a bit of an aftercast animation that can be cancelled by skill casts (I am unsure if it applies to all weapon to be honest, for example I can't see any obvious aftercast on bow light attacks), so basically the light attack has already landed, but there is some additional animation that will get overriden by pressing skill button.

LA aftercast animation cancelling is the thing that makes the combat look "janky" and is the reason for alot of things a number of people in this thread attributed to weaving itself.

I do not like OPs suggestion of auto-attack - this would turn ESO combat into pretty much copy of every WoW-esque tab targeted MMO, with that exception that we'd have extremely limited skill selection to use in any given encounter, and would have half of our skills locked behind having to swap bars.

karthrag_inak

No

Khajiit enjoys it when it works. Unfortunately, with the inconsistent connections that ESO seems to suffer at this one's house (where ping varies from 40 to many hundreds sometimes) it does not consistently work.

Saint-Ange

No

[snip]