CoolBlast3 wrote: »

Once again, I sadly have to agree with all of this.
What annoys me the most about my question specifically though, is that I wasn't the only one to ask about Daggerfall gods! There were at least two or three other questions about them! So ZOS could clearly see that it was a topic of interest.
I'm just disappointed and saddened really. There's zero point to loremaster archives if they continue this way, but I do adore the concept of them, and hope ZOS takes this feedback to heart.

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

I wrote the "High Isle - What did it do for Bretons?" thread, and I want to weigh in here to say that I 100% agree with the sentiment regarding the Loremaster Q&A. Not only was it phrased in a way that made it difficult to ask questions relevant to all Bretons, or Breton history and culture in general, but few of the questions had anything to do with Bretons at all, if they were not already answered in-game.

I have to admit I am incredibly disappointed. I requested a Q&A so that we could get a chance to ask about Bretons, not about a specific group of Bretons isolated on an island far away from High Rock. Whether the Q&A was delayed by deliberations or by merely keeping the Q&A on the backburner, the end result is the same; questions with answers that are largely irrelevant to the Bretons at large, mostly regurgitating lorebooks that are already in-game. In my sincere opinion, it is a spit in the face of the legacy of Loremaster Q&A's, as this does NOTHING to contribute to the lore. In fact, it defeats the point of hosting a Loremaster Q&A altogether. Why waste time on repeating what is already known? The Loremaster Q&A's used to be an opportunity for players to engage with the writers to get new information regarding the lore; to clear up confusion or to confirm speculation. I feel confident in saying that I think most of us lorehounds are not interested in seeing old information repeated unnecessarily for these.

I know I am speaking harshly,, but I am not sure how else I can convey how much of a wasted opportunity this was. If Zenke would be willing to do so, I would welcome either a part two of the Q&A that answers all our questions, or an all-new Q&A that is more relevant to Breton lore in general. In fact, I vehemently encourage it! I, like others in this thread, want to see the Bretons live up to their potential as a mercantile, inventive, intelligent and creative race that happens to have some medieval flair.

I loved the questions asked by @CoolBlast3 and @Aliyavana and was looking forward to seeing the answers to them, as Bretons are sorely lacking both in revitalization of their creation myth as well as important mages on the levels of Shalidor, though I will admit I am biased about my own question, given how much setup ZOS have done for it. The Rights Charter is not a figment of my imagination, it is actually mentioned in the lore. Bretons openly praise freedom in their tavern songs, singing "Rise, rise, to freedom rise / Arise, ye Breton sons and daughters!" Working class people on High Isle boast about openly insulting nobles and getting away with it. Self-proclaimed citizens in Evermore wrote open letters denouncing the crown, signed with their own names, and spread them around like candy. Darius Shano humiliated nobility, clergy, and even the king of Daenia, and they could only sit on their hands until he insulted TIBER SEPTIM. He was executed for breaking Imperial law, NOT local law. The Order of the Silver Rose hunted down Daedra worshipers who espoused venerations in public, yet remained chummy with Daedra worshipers who kept their faith quiet. Not to mention that there is an ABBEY dedicated to Azura in Menevia in Stormhaven, which is known to be allowed to operate by in-universe scholars. Baron Sorick goes to trial if you don't leave him to be lynched by a mob. Medya Zurric, a lower-class Reachman who let the Dark Witnesses clan raid Murcien's Hamlet and who blatantly admits to feeling justified in doing so, gets to go to trial if you choose to not be a vigilante. And if there is one thing I will absolutely praise High Isle for? It is how Sergeant Dupertuis repeatedly speaks of being unable to secure a conviction of a skooma dealer without incriminating evidence.

I already hyperlinked all the canon descriptions speaking about how Bretons are regarded as intelligent in the thread expressing my disappointment with ZOS' portrayal of Bretons in High Isle. Bretons currently have NOTHING reflecting their supposed intelligence other than the potential confirmation of the Rights Charter. What better way to illustrate their intelligence than to make them more socially enlightened than the rest of Tamriel by giving them a constitution granting them rights in a similar vein to the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen or the Bill of Rights? The Rights Charter can even coexist with Amenos, given how a certain constitutional republic operates an inhumane overseas prison to this day.

Heck, @ZOS_LeamonTuttle even referred to Breton society as neo-feudalism in an interview. The writers need to understand that boiling Bretons down to the stereotypically bland and boring generic medieval fantasy is what drives the average player away from them. But a feudal society that encourages upward mobility between classes, with a constitution, rights, and distinct privileges for belonging to certain castes? That's a complete subversion of historical feudalism, and it is INTERESTING. I would LOVE to read lorebooks on the relationship between freedom and honor as Breton values, and how one needs to balance the two with respect to one's duties and who one is beholden to, and what is morally right and just. Like how one could write that just because you are FREE TO insult your liege, that it would be dishonorable to do so if they are providing for you, or how one could write that if a lord has shamed himself by not providing the necessary help, then one is free to abandon them.

I am sure everyone is familiar with The School of Athens, right?



It's a beautiful painting, and probably my favorite. But you take those famous philosophers, you give them the de jure mindset of Enlightenment thinkers, you slap some medieval armor on them and paint them flinging magic just to show off, THAT is the kind of Bretons I want to see.

Oh, and I also asked about Breton lifespans, given that we have a canonical mention of "aged like a Breton." For one, it is an oddly specific thing to say, and second of all, if having .001% Elven blood makes one a natural spellcaster, then who is to say it does not also give one an extra 50 years? Emeric is kicking bum in ESO, both in base game and in the chapter, and in 2E 582 he's like 60. How many people are in that good shape at that age IRL?

If the writers read this, and I hope they do, then give Bretons some unique and interesting lore, PLEASE.

OgrimTitan wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

I wrote the "High Isle - What did it do for Bretons?" thread, and I want to weigh in here to say that I 100% agree with the sentiment regarding the Loremaster Q&A. Not only was it phrased in a way that made it difficult to ask questions relevant to all Bretons, or Breton history and culture in general, but few of the questions had anything to do with Bretons at all, if they were not already answered in-game.

I have to admit I am incredibly disappointed. I requested a Q&A so that we could get a chance to ask about Bretons, not about a specific group of Bretons isolated on an island far away from High Rock. Whether the Q&A was delayed by deliberations or by merely keeping the Q&A on the backburner, the end result is the same; questions with answers that are largely irrelevant to the Bretons at large, mostly regurgitating lorebooks that are already in-game. In my sincere opinion, it is a spit in the face of the legacy of Loremaster Q&A's, as this does NOTHING to contribute to the lore. In fact, it defeats the point of hosting a Loremaster Q&A altogether. Why waste time on repeating what is already known? The Loremaster Q&A's used to be an opportunity for players to engage with the writers to get new information regarding the lore; to clear up confusion or to confirm speculation. I feel confident in saying that I think most of us lorehounds are not interested in seeing old information repeated unnecessarily for these.

I know I am speaking harshly,, but I am not sure how else I can convey how much of a wasted opportunity this was. If Zenke would be willing to do so, I would welcome either a part two of the Q&A that answers all our questions, or an all-new Q&A that is more relevant to Breton lore in general. In fact, I vehemently encourage it! I, like others in this thread, want to see the Bretons live up to their potential as a mercantile, inventive, intelligent and creative race that happens to have some medieval flair.

I loved the questions asked by @CoolBlast3 and @Aliyavana and was looking forward to seeing the answers to them, as Bretons are sorely lacking both in revitalization of their creation myth as well as important mages on the levels of Shalidor, though I will admit I am biased about my own question, given how much setup ZOS have done for it. The Rights Charter is not a figment of my imagination, it is actually mentioned in the lore. Bretons openly praise freedom in their tavern songs, singing "Rise, rise, to freedom rise / Arise, ye Breton sons and daughters!" Working class people on High Isle boast about openly insulting nobles and getting away with it. Self-proclaimed citizens in Evermore wrote open letters denouncing the crown, signed with their own names, and spread them around like candy. Darius Shano humiliated nobility, clergy, and even the king of Daenia, and they could only sit on their hands until he insulted TIBER SEPTIM. He was executed for breaking Imperial law, NOT local law. The Order of the Silver Rose hunted down Daedra worshipers who espoused venerations in public, yet remained chummy with Daedra worshipers who kept their faith quiet. Not to mention that there is an ABBEY dedicated to Azura in Menevia in Stormhaven, which is known to be allowed to operate by in-universe scholars. Baron Sorick goes to trial if you don't leave him to be lynched by a mob. Medya Zurric, a lower-class Reachman who let the Dark Witnesses clan raid Murcien's Hamlet and who blatantly admits to feeling justified in doing so, gets to go to trial if you choose to not be a vigilante. And if there is one thing I will absolutely praise High Isle for? It is how Sergeant Dupertuis repeatedly speaks of being unable to secure a conviction of a skooma dealer without incriminating evidence.

I already hyperlinked all the canon descriptions speaking about how Bretons are regarded as intelligent in the thread expressing my disappointment with ZOS' portrayal of Bretons in High Isle. Bretons currently have NOTHING reflecting their supposed intelligence other than the potential confirmation of the Rights Charter. What better way to illustrate their intelligence than to make them more socially enlightened than the rest of Tamriel by giving them a constitution granting them rights in a similar vein to the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen or the Bill of Rights? The Rights Charter can even coexist with Amenos, given how a certain constitutional republic operates an inhumane overseas prison to this day.

Heck, @ZOS_LeamonTuttle even referred to Breton society as neo-feudalism in an interview. The writers need to understand that boiling Bretons down to the stereotypically bland and boring generic medieval fantasy is what drives the average player away from them. But a feudal society that encourages upward mobility between classes, with a constitution, rights, and distinct privileges for belonging to certain castes? That's a complete subversion of historical feudalism, and it is INTERESTING. I would LOVE to read lorebooks on the relationship between freedom and honor as Breton values, and how one needs to balance the two with respect to one's duties and who one is beholden to, and what is morally right and just. Like how one could write that just because you are FREE TO insult your liege, that it would be dishonorable to do so if they are providing for you, or how one could write that if a lord has shamed himself by not providing the necessary help, then one is free to abandon them.

I am sure everyone is familiar with The School of Athens, right?



It's a beautiful painting, and probably my favorite. But you take those famous philosophers, you give them the de jure mindset of Enlightenment thinkers, you slap some medieval armor on them and paint them flinging magic just to show off, THAT is the kind of Bretons I want to see.

Oh, and I also asked about Breton lifespans, given that we have a canonical mention of "aged like a Breton." For one, it is an oddly specific thing to say, and second of all, if having .001% Elven blood makes one a natural spellcaster, then who is to say it does not also give one an extra 50 years? Emeric is kicking bum in ESO, both in base game and in the chapter, and in 2E 582 he's like 60. How many people are in that good shape at that age IRL?

If the writers read this, and I hope they do, then give Bretons some unique and interesting lore, PLEASE.

Thank you for contributing to the thread. The more the merrier. More rich the discussion becomes - the more is a chance my letter, and all our wishes, will be noticed.

Again, first of all I'll encourage to have a rational hope for the 4th DLC. No reason the current approach will be changed now: most of the valuable lore is presented in those. The only thing that we should be afraid of is the possibility this DLC will be 80% about druids, since it's bound to be Galen.

Now, about some things that need clarifications, I think. Rights Charter is a great theme. The sophisticated and just law system would be nice to be be attributed to bretons, but it would be sad indeed to be attributed ONLY to bretons. That exclusiveness will do bad for the other countries, creating the image of some kind of Wild West. There is a huge tumor-sized misconception that The Elder Scrolls takes place in medieval world, although even in Daggerfall there were sophisticated banking and law systems, and even periodic scholarly journals were mentioned casually. ESO has mentions of veterinarians and Ministries of Finance. Quite the medieval world alright. So to talk about Rights Charter not only not strange, it's strange not to. In any way the book you mentioned is talking about Direnny Hegemony time, not High Rock per se and de jure. Another thing I want to point out - "Aged like a breton" really is not a flattering term judging by the context. Re-read it carefully.

On the other side I absolutely love emphasis on neo-feudalism by mr. Tuttle, too. To add to the pile there are mentions of so many breton universities that people don't even want to keep track on the closed ones. Those world facts seem obvious to me, and, I'm sure, to many other people. The reason I mention this is that I met people who fiercely defended their idea of Conan-like or LotR-like TES despite all the counter-arguments.

As for writing contract books, as many lorehounds would like to, I'm positive it's not happening even if the world ends tomorrow. Not for me with real contract journalist work experience, not for you, not for anyone out of ZeniMax staff or circles connected to them, but I encourage you to try yourself in Apocrypha on TESLore Reddit. It can be quite influential. Like Uutak Mythos. Some texts posted on this subreddit are really great. In the end the more we (the community) argue about canonicity of canon, the less value this term holds.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Anyway, I don't want to stray to far from the original theme or start an argument on some lore details. Thank you for posting here again. Would be nice if we can summon here as much lorehounds who care as possible, so share this thread if you can. The only way to force the change, I wager.

OgrimTitan wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

OgrimTitan wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

I wrote the "High Isle - What did it do for Bretons?" thread, and I want to weigh in here to say that I 100% agree with the sentiment regarding the Loremaster Q&A. Not only was it phrased in a way that made it difficult to ask questions relevant to all Bretons, or Breton history and culture in general, but few of the questions had anything to do with Bretons at all, if they were not already answered in-game.

I have to admit I am incredibly disappointed. I requested a Q&A so that we could get a chance to ask about Bretons, not about a specific group of Bretons isolated on an island far away from High Rock. Whether the Q&A was delayed by deliberations or by merely keeping the Q&A on the backburner, the end result is the same; questions with answers that are largely irrelevant to the Bretons at large, mostly regurgitating lorebooks that are already in-game. In my sincere opinion, it is a spit in the face of the legacy of Loremaster Q&A's, as this does NOTHING to contribute to the lore. In fact, it defeats the point of hosting a Loremaster Q&A altogether. Why waste time on repeating what is already known? The Loremaster Q&A's used to be an opportunity for players to engage with the writers to get new information regarding the lore; to clear up confusion or to confirm speculation. I feel confident in saying that I think most of us lorehounds are not interested in seeing old information repeated unnecessarily for these.

I know I am speaking harshly,, but I am not sure how else I can convey how much of a wasted opportunity this was. If Zenke would be willing to do so, I would welcome either a part two of the Q&A that answers all our questions, or an all-new Q&A that is more relevant to Breton lore in general. In fact, I vehemently encourage it! I, like others in this thread, want to see the Bretons live up to their potential as a mercantile, inventive, intelligent and creative race that happens to have some medieval flair.

I loved the questions asked by @CoolBlast3 and @Aliyavana and was looking forward to seeing the answers to them, as Bretons are sorely lacking both in revitalization of their creation myth as well as important mages on the levels of Shalidor, though I will admit I am biased about my own question, given how much setup ZOS have done for it. The Rights Charter is not a figment of my imagination, it is actually mentioned in the lore. Bretons openly praise freedom in their tavern songs, singing "Rise, rise, to freedom rise / Arise, ye Breton sons and daughters!" Working class people on High Isle boast about openly insulting nobles and getting away with it. Self-proclaimed citizens in Evermore wrote open letters denouncing the crown, signed with their own names, and spread them around like candy. Darius Shano humiliated nobility, clergy, and even the king of Daenia, and they could only sit on their hands until he insulted TIBER SEPTIM. He was executed for breaking Imperial law, NOT local law. The Order of the Silver Rose hunted down Daedra worshipers who espoused venerations in public, yet remained chummy with Daedra worshipers who kept their faith quiet. Not to mention that there is an ABBEY dedicated to Azura in Menevia in Stormhaven, which is known to be allowed to operate by in-universe scholars. Baron Sorick goes to trial if you don't leave him to be lynched by a mob. Medya Zurric, a lower-class Reachman who let the Dark Witnesses clan raid Murcien's Hamlet and who blatantly admits to feeling justified in doing so, gets to go to trial if you choose to not be a vigilante. And if there is one thing I will absolutely praise High Isle for? It is how Sergeant Dupertuis repeatedly speaks of being unable to secure a conviction of a skooma dealer without incriminating evidence.

I already hyperlinked all the canon descriptions speaking about how Bretons are regarded as intelligent in the thread expressing my disappointment with ZOS' portrayal of Bretons in High Isle. Bretons currently have NOTHING reflecting their supposed intelligence other than the potential confirmation of the Rights Charter. What better way to illustrate their intelligence than to make them more socially enlightened than the rest of Tamriel by giving them a constitution granting them rights in a similar vein to the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen or the Bill of Rights? The Rights Charter can even coexist with Amenos, given how a certain constitutional republic operates an inhumane overseas prison to this day.

Heck, @ZOS_LeamonTuttle even referred to Breton society as neo-feudalism in an interview. The writers need to understand that boiling Bretons down to the stereotypically bland and boring generic medieval fantasy is what drives the average player away from them. But a feudal society that encourages upward mobility between classes, with a constitution, rights, and distinct privileges for belonging to certain castes? That's a complete subversion of historical feudalism, and it is INTERESTING. I would LOVE to read lorebooks on the relationship between freedom and honor as Breton values, and how one needs to balance the two with respect to one's duties and who one is beholden to, and what is morally right and just. Like how one could write that just because you are FREE TO insult your liege, that it would be dishonorable to do so if they are providing for you, or how one could write that if a lord has shamed himself by not providing the necessary help, then one is free to abandon them.

I am sure everyone is familiar with The School of Athens, right?



It's a beautiful painting, and probably my favorite. But you take those famous philosophers, you give them the de jure mindset of Enlightenment thinkers, you slap some medieval armor on them and paint them flinging magic just to show off, THAT is the kind of Bretons I want to see.

Oh, and I also asked about Breton lifespans, given that we have a canonical mention of "aged like a Breton." For one, it is an oddly specific thing to say, and second of all, if having .001% Elven blood makes one a natural spellcaster, then who is to say it does not also give one an extra 50 years? Emeric is kicking bum in ESO, both in base game and in the chapter, and in 2E 582 he's like 60. How many people are in that good shape at that age IRL?

If the writers read this, and I hope they do, then give Bretons some unique and interesting lore, PLEASE.

Thank you for contributing to the thread. The more the merrier. More rich the discussion becomes - the more is a chance my letter, and all our wishes, will be noticed.

Again, first of all I'll encourage to have a rational hope for the 4th DLC. No reason the current approach will be changed now: most of the valuable lore is presented in those. The only thing that we should be afraid of is the possibility this DLC will be 80% about druids, since it's bound to be Galen.

Now, about some things that need clarifications, I think. Rights Charter is a great theme. The sophisticated and just law system would be nice to be be attributed to bretons, but it would be sad indeed to be attributed ONLY to bretons. That exclusiveness will do bad for the other countries, creating the image of some kind of Wild West. There is a huge tumor-sized misconception that The Elder Scrolls takes place in medieval world, although even in Daggerfall there were sophisticated banking and law systems, and even periodic scholarly journals were mentioned casually. ESO has mentions of veterinarians and Ministries of Finance. Quite the medieval world alright. So to talk about Rights Charter not only not strange, it's strange not to. In any way the book you mentioned is talking about Direnny Hegemony time, not High Rock per se and de jure. Another thing I want to point out - "Aged like a breton" really is not a flattering term judging by the context. Re-read it carefully.

On the other side I absolutely love emphasis on neo-feudalism by mr. Tuttle, too. To add to the pile there are mentions of so many breton universities that people don't even want to keep track on the closed ones. Those world facts seem obvious to me, and, I'm sure, to many other people. The reason I mention this is that I met people who fiercely defended their idea of Conan-like or LotR-like TES despite all the counter-arguments.

As for writing contract books, as many lorehounds would like to, I'm positive it's not happening even if the world ends tomorrow. Not for me with real contract journalist work experience, not for you, not for anyone out of ZeniMax staff or circles connected to them, but I encourage you to try yourself in Apocrypha on TESLore Reddit. It can be quite influential. Like Uutak Mythos. Some texts posted on this subreddit are really great. In the end the more we (the community) argue about canonicity of canon, the less value this term holds.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Anyway, I don't want to stray to far from the original theme or start an argument on some lore details. Thank you for posting here again. Would be nice if we can summon here as much lorehounds who care as possible, so share this thread if you can. The only way to force the change, I wager.

On the contrary, I would prefer if the Rights Charter was unique to the Bretons. The Bretons are desperately lacking in unique and exclusive lore. I would invite you to name one thing that is exclusive to Bretons.

Knights? The Buoyant Armigers of Morrowind call themselves knight errant, and the Order of the Hour of Cyrodiil is a knightly order devoted to Akatosh.

Class system and social mobility? In Morrowind you can climb from a servant to becoming a House Councilor. In Skyrim you can become a thane, and then later a jarl. The other classes (middle class, working class) do not really MEAN anything if there are no benefits to belonging to a certain caste aside from the obvious ones (wealth, influence)

As for the "aged like a Breton" comment, why not say "aged like a man" or "aged like a human" if it is not supposed to be flattering? It evidently suggests that Bretons age slower than other human races, given how it is so oddly specific.

Again, I would like to not stray off from the theme, but will encourage this details clarification one more time.
Bretons are unique. They just lack the proper representation of it. You said it yourself: "A feudal society that encourages upward mobility between classes, with a constitution, rights, and distinct privileges for belonging to certain castes." .

Neo-feudal society that encourages upward mobility between classes? "Find a new hill, become a king.", remember? That's exactly that principle of breton society, here, since 1998. Also paraphrased in TESO, too. And also plainly said again in the great book The Knightly Orders of High Rock: Second, the bestowal of a knighthood on a lower-class man or woman is a convenient way to reward outstanding contributions to society (or to the elevating lord), and confers a measure of that nobility so prized in Breton society. In Morrowind it's more like social machiavellism, and in Skyrim it's measuring of biceps and other body parts.

As we mentioned knights, let's smoothly switch to talk about them. Yes, there are Buoyant Armigers, and Order of the Hour (which was made imperial retroactively, by the way). There are also Welkynar and redguard knights, prudently renamed gallants that thankfully function another way than your stereotypical questing knight of TES's bretons or knight romances of our world. Those are rare examples, literal exceptions that prove the rule that knighthood are immanent part of the both breton culture (questers, nobles-in-arms) and society (social class). Sources I link would be one, two, three, four.

Constitution and rights? Again, it's all here. We don't have the plain text of it, but it's presence is evident undeniably: Master Pellingare refuses to talk without a lawyer, traitor can be brought to a trial, disgraced knight can serve penance, and, well, there are literal courts of law in TESII. The books of law would improve the lore with details, but the lore is already there.

And another last subversion of feudal Europe would be equality of rights. Not only upward mobility works the same for knights of any gender, but even fair maidens, prize brides are usually serve as trophies only if it's profitable for them.

Summing up: the lore and culture are all here. They just need to bloom. Partly it's already there with High Isle, and you know it.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Now, if you want to talk about real problems of High Rock, there are many, and some are really hard to fix. Proper culture representation, more magic involved - yes, let's call it number 1. Partly solved by High Isle.

More unique landscape and architecture. Number 2. Cliff landscape, unimaginably big towers and small cozy village homes are the things that we needed from Greater Bretony. Again it's partly solved by High Isle.




(first picture is mine, second is an official promo, third and fourth are from UESP, ownership sorted)
But now we've got the whole of High Rock of dwarf castles and other outdated and half-empty artdesign that just asks to be remade. There is yet another problem with all great cities having the same architecture, but that's the problem of the whole game, not even vanilla to my grief.

Another thing. Ayleid ruins, and breton dungeons in general. Number 3. 'Nuff said. Partly solved by High Isle, too. But the rest of High Rock, real High Rock really doesn't deserve what it got. Ayleid ruins started to be interesting only in 2018-2020, with Murkmire, Wrathstone and Blackwood. Before that it was the most uninspired type of dungeon possible, and High Rock got it all.

Last thing. Fauna of High Rock. Number 4. I don't like to criticize, yet vanilla TESO had very weak faunas of represented countries. Almost nothing new was added, and even a lot of existing animals and creatures were not represented, like Morrowind ones, for example. Gladly, it did change drastically in DLC era. Even Skyrim became more diverse with sea giants and bristlebacks. High Rock has nothing unique. Literally. High Isle saved the day again. Fauns are great addition, fresh and not cliché. Also, very celtic. Soulrazer knights are also very, very good. Not banal enough to be just animated armor, and also very breton-fitting type of monster - magical necromantic ghost in an armored shell.


(second picture is not mine and made for UESP)

But what of High Rock when it gets the redesign? The first monster I added would've been lou carcolh. It fits perfectly. Dangerous as a dragon, not overused and very unusual. It's french in origin and it can also serve as an homage to mysterious giant snails opposing knights in medieval art. On that note I'll finish this giant rant.


(both arts are not mine and I don't own them)

OgrimTitan wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

OgrimTitan wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

OgrimTitan wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

I wrote the "High Isle - What did it do for Bretons?" thread, and I want to weigh in here to say that I 100% agree with the sentiment regarding the Loremaster Q&A. Not only was it phrased in a way that made it difficult to ask questions relevant to all Bretons, or Breton history and culture in general, but few of the questions had anything to do with Bretons at all, if they were not already answered in-game.

I have to admit I am incredibly disappointed. I requested a Q&A so that we could get a chance to ask about Bretons, not about a specific group of Bretons isolated on an island far away from High Rock. Whether the Q&A was delayed by deliberations or by merely keeping the Q&A on the backburner, the end result is the same; questions with answers that are largely irrelevant to the Bretons at large, mostly regurgitating lorebooks that are already in-game. In my sincere opinion, it is a spit in the face of the legacy of Loremaster Q&A's, as this does NOTHING to contribute to the lore. In fact, it defeats the point of hosting a Loremaster Q&A altogether. Why waste time on repeating what is already known? The Loremaster Q&A's used to be an opportunity for players to engage with the writers to get new information regarding the lore; to clear up confusion or to confirm speculation. I feel confident in saying that I think most of us lorehounds are not interested in seeing old information repeated unnecessarily for these.

I know I am speaking harshly,, but I am not sure how else I can convey how much of a wasted opportunity this was. If Zenke would be willing to do so, I would welcome either a part two of the Q&A that answers all our questions, or an all-new Q&A that is more relevant to Breton lore in general. In fact, I vehemently encourage it! I, like others in this thread, want to see the Bretons live up to their potential as a mercantile, inventive, intelligent and creative race that happens to have some medieval flair.

I loved the questions asked by @CoolBlast3 and @Aliyavana and was looking forward to seeing the answers to them, as Bretons are sorely lacking both in revitalization of their creation myth as well as important mages on the levels of Shalidor, though I will admit I am biased about my own question, given how much setup ZOS have done for it. The Rights Charter is not a figment of my imagination, it is actually mentioned in the lore. Bretons openly praise freedom in their tavern songs, singing "Rise, rise, to freedom rise / Arise, ye Breton sons and daughters!" Working class people on High Isle boast about openly insulting nobles and getting away with it. Self-proclaimed citizens in Evermore wrote open letters denouncing the crown, signed with their own names, and spread them around like candy. Darius Shano humiliated nobility, clergy, and even the king of Daenia, and they could only sit on their hands until he insulted TIBER SEPTIM. He was executed for breaking Imperial law, NOT local law. The Order of the Silver Rose hunted down Daedra worshipers who espoused venerations in public, yet remained chummy with Daedra worshipers who kept their faith quiet. Not to mention that there is an ABBEY dedicated to Azura in Menevia in Stormhaven, which is known to be allowed to operate by in-universe scholars. Baron Sorick goes to trial if you don't leave him to be lynched by a mob. Medya Zurric, a lower-class Reachman who let the Dark Witnesses clan raid Murcien's Hamlet and who blatantly admits to feeling justified in doing so, gets to go to trial if you choose to not be a vigilante. And if there is one thing I will absolutely praise High Isle for? It is how Sergeant Dupertuis repeatedly speaks of being unable to secure a conviction of a skooma dealer without incriminating evidence.

I already hyperlinked all the canon descriptions speaking about how Bretons are regarded as intelligent in the thread expressing my disappointment with ZOS' portrayal of Bretons in High Isle. Bretons currently have NOTHING reflecting their supposed intelligence other than the potential confirmation of the Rights Charter. What better way to illustrate their intelligence than to make them more socially enlightened than the rest of Tamriel by giving them a constitution granting them rights in a similar vein to the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen or the Bill of Rights? The Rights Charter can even coexist with Amenos, given how a certain constitutional republic operates an inhumane overseas prison to this day.

Heck, @ZOS_LeamonTuttle even referred to Breton society as neo-feudalism in an interview. The writers need to understand that boiling Bretons down to the stereotypically bland and boring generic medieval fantasy is what drives the average player away from them. But a feudal society that encourages upward mobility between classes, with a constitution, rights, and distinct privileges for belonging to certain castes? That's a complete subversion of historical feudalism, and it is INTERESTING. I would LOVE to read lorebooks on the relationship between freedom and honor as Breton values, and how one needs to balance the two with respect to one's duties and who one is beholden to, and what is morally right and just. Like how one could write that just because you are FREE TO insult your liege, that it would be dishonorable to do so if they are providing for you, or how one could write that if a lord has shamed himself by not providing the necessary help, then one is free to abandon them.

I am sure everyone is familiar with The School of Athens, right?



It's a beautiful painting, and probably my favorite. But you take those famous philosophers, you give them the de jure mindset of Enlightenment thinkers, you slap some medieval armor on them and paint them flinging magic just to show off, THAT is the kind of Bretons I want to see.

Oh, and I also asked about Breton lifespans, given that we have a canonical mention of "aged like a Breton." For one, it is an oddly specific thing to say, and second of all, if having .001% Elven blood makes one a natural spellcaster, then who is to say it does not also give one an extra 50 years? Emeric is kicking bum in ESO, both in base game and in the chapter, and in 2E 582 he's like 60. How many people are in that good shape at that age IRL?

If the writers read this, and I hope they do, then give Bretons some unique and interesting lore, PLEASE.

Thank you for contributing to the thread. The more the merrier. More rich the discussion becomes - the more is a chance my letter, and all our wishes, will be noticed.

Again, first of all I'll encourage to have a rational hope for the 4th DLC. No reason the current approach will be changed now: most of the valuable lore is presented in those. The only thing that we should be afraid of is the possibility this DLC will be 80% about druids, since it's bound to be Galen.

Now, about some things that need clarifications, I think. Rights Charter is a great theme. The sophisticated and just law system would be nice to be be attributed to bretons, but it would be sad indeed to be attributed ONLY to bretons. That exclusiveness will do bad for the other countries, creating the image of some kind of Wild West. There is a huge tumor-sized misconception that The Elder Scrolls takes place in medieval world, although even in Daggerfall there were sophisticated banking and law systems, and even periodic scholarly journals were mentioned casually. ESO has mentions of veterinarians and Ministries of Finance. Quite the medieval world alright. So to talk about Rights Charter not only not strange, it's strange not to. In any way the book you mentioned is talking about Direnny Hegemony time, not High Rock per se and de jure. Another thing I want to point out - "Aged like a breton" really is not a flattering term judging by the context. Re-read it carefully.

On the other side I absolutely love emphasis on neo-feudalism by mr. Tuttle, too. To add to the pile there are mentions of so many breton universities that people don't even want to keep track on the closed ones. Those world facts seem obvious to me, and, I'm sure, to many other people. The reason I mention this is that I met people who fiercely defended their idea of Conan-like or LotR-like TES despite all the counter-arguments.

As for writing contract books, as many lorehounds would like to, I'm positive it's not happening even if the world ends tomorrow. Not for me with real contract journalist work experience, not for you, not for anyone out of ZeniMax staff or circles connected to them, but I encourage you to try yourself in Apocrypha on TESLore Reddit. It can be quite influential. Like Uutak Mythos. Some texts posted on this subreddit are really great. In the end the more we (the community) argue about canonicity of canon, the less value this term holds.
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Anyway, I don't want to stray to far from the original theme or start an argument on some lore details. Thank you for posting here again. Would be nice if we can summon here as much lorehounds who care as possible, so share this thread if you can. The only way to force the change, I wager.

On the contrary, I would prefer if the Rights Charter was unique to the Bretons. The Bretons are desperately lacking in unique and exclusive lore. I would invite you to name one thing that is exclusive to Bretons.

Knights? The Buoyant Armigers of Morrowind call themselves knight errant, and the Order of the Hour of Cyrodiil is a knightly order devoted to Akatosh.

Class system and social mobility? In Morrowind you can climb from a servant to becoming a House Councilor. In Skyrim you can become a thane, and then later a jarl. The other classes (middle class, working class) do not really MEAN anything if there are no benefits to belonging to a certain caste aside from the obvious ones (wealth, influence)

As for the "aged like a Breton" comment, why not say "aged like a man" or "aged like a human" if it is not supposed to be flattering? It evidently suggests that Bretons age slower than other human races, given how it is so oddly specific.

Again, I would like to not stray off from the theme, but will encourage this details clarification one more time.
Bretons are unique. They just lack the proper representation of it. You said it yourself: "A feudal society that encourages upward mobility between classes, with a constitution, rights, and distinct privileges for belonging to certain castes." .

Neo-feudal society that encourages upward mobility between classes? "Find a new hill, become a king.", remember? That's exactly that principle of breton society, here, since 1998. Also paraphrased in TESO, too. And also plainly said again in the great book The Knightly Orders of High Rock: Second, the bestowal of a knighthood on a lower-class man or woman is a convenient way to reward outstanding contributions to society (or to the elevating lord), and confers a measure of that nobility so prized in Breton society. In Morrowind it's more like social machiavellism, and in Skyrim it's measuring of biceps and other body parts.

As we mentioned knights, let's smoothly switch to talk about them. Yes, there are Buoyant Armigers, and Order of the Hour (which was made imperial retroactively, by the way). There are also Welkynar and redguard knights, prudently renamed gallants that thankfully function another way than your stereotypical questing knight of TES's bretons or knight romances of our world. Those are rare examples, literal exceptions that prove the rule that knighthood are immanent part of the both breton culture (questers, nobles-in-arms) and society (social class). Sources I link would be one, two, three, four.

Constitution and rights? Again, it's all here. We don't have the plain text of it, but it's presence is evident undeniably: Master Pellingare refuses to talk without a lawyer, traitor can be brought to a trial, disgraced knight can serve penance, and, well, there are literal courts of law in TESII. The books of law would improve the lore with details, but the lore is already there.

And another last subversion of feudal Europe would be equality of rights. Not only upward mobility works the same for knights of any gender, but even fair maidens, prize brides are usually serve as trophies only if it's profitable for them.

Summing up: the lore and culture are all here. They just need to bloom. Partly it's already there with High Isle, and you know it.
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Now, if you want to talk about real problems of High Rock, there are many, and some are really hard to fix. Proper culture representation, more magic involved - yes, let's call it number 1. Partly solved by High Isle.

More unique landscape and architecture. Number 2. Cliff landscape, unimaginably big towers and small cozy village homes are the things that we needed from Greater Bretony. Again it's partly solved by High Isle.




(first picture is mine, second is an official promo, third and fourth are from UESP, ownership sorted)
But now we've got the whole of High Rock of dwarf castles and other outdated and half-empty artdesign that just asks to be remade. There is yet another problem with all great cities having the same architecture, but that's the problem of the whole game, not even vanilla to my grief.

Another thing. Ayleid ruins, and breton dungeons in general. Number 3. 'Nuff said. Partly solved by High Isle, too. But the rest of High Rock, real High Rock really doesn't deserve what it got. Ayleid ruins started to be interesting only in 2018-2020, with Murkmire, Wrathstone and Blackwood. Before that it was the most uninspired type of dungeon possible, and High Rock got it all.

Last thing. Fauna of High Rock. Number 4. I don't like to criticize, yet vanilla TESO had very weak faunas of represented countries. Almost nothing new was added, and even a lot of existing animals and creatures were not represented, like Morrowind ones, for example. Gladly, it did change drastically in DLC era. Even Skyrim became more diverse with sea giants and bristlebacks. High Rock has nothing unique. Literally. High Isle saved the day again. Fauns are great addition, fresh and not cliché. Also, very celtic. Soulrazer knights are also very, very good. Not banal enough to be just animated armor, and also very breton-fitting type of monster - magical necromantic ghost in an armored shell.


(second picture is not mine and made for UESP)

But what of High Rock when it gets the redesign? The first monster I added would've been lou carcolh. It fits perfectly. Dangerous as a dragon, not overused and very unusual. It's french in origin and it can also serve as an homage to mysterious giant snails opposing knights in medieval art. On that note I'll finish this giant rant.


(both arts are not mine and I don't own them)

I know you'd rather not stray too far off-topic, but I think it's worthwhile to discuss this, because we all agree that the Q&A was lackluster, and because Bretons are in a sore spot right now due to how ZOS have opted to lean too heavily into the medieval flair and influences it is a good call to get our thoughts out here.

As far as upward mobility goes, History of House Dufort outright called upward mobility from rags to riches a "rare case", implying that it does not happen as often as one would think. If upward mobility to nobility is rare in High Rock, then it is arguably not an outstanding feature as compared to the Great House ranks which are openly said to be purely meritocratic, or the thanedoms of Skyrim, which can be granted for doing favors for the Jarls. In Skyrim it's not necessarily about muscle, either, as you can become thane of Winterhold, The Pale (if the Jarl is Brina) Haafingar and the Reach (if the Jarl is Thongvor) without ever measuring your strength against anyone.

Knighthood might be more central in High Rock, but making it central does not make it unique anymore than valuing strength in Breton society makes it a unique thing in Nordic or Orcish society. Redguards, Bretons and Dunmer all value strength, it's just not a central theme. Knights are not unique. Though if there were a lorebook on how knighthood had originated in Nedic society in High Rock, and that Cadwell was the first knight who traveled from High Rock to become the hero of Cyrod? Then sure, that'd be something. One could have taken that a step further by making knightly orders originate in High Rock, and then having the Order of the Hour and Buoyant Armigers be inspired from the meeting between Ryain Direnni's Breton legions, Chimer and Cyrods at the coronation of Emperor Gorieus. That would have firmly placed knights in Breton origin, and even shown Breton influence on the rest of Tamriel. Bretons have had zero influence on the world stage.

As for constitutions and rights? No. It is not "all there." If it was, I would not have needed to ask for the Rights Charter in the Q&A. The sources you used are the VERY SAME I used to ask about the Rights Charter, and ZOS pointedly ignored it. We have off-hand mentions and circumstantial evidence which I pointed out, but without a full-fledged rights document as a lorebook, and complimentary lorebooks on how the system of law functions, it does not mean SQUAT. Heck, even Summerset has legal systems requiring proof. If ZOS would confirm with lorebooks that Bretons value both freedom and systems of law, though, making High Rock a more liberal version of Summerset? Then that would mean something. Though arguably not, since even the First Orsinium had rights and privileges set out by Torug.

I wrote a draft of what I'd consider the ideal Rights Charter in the Fiction & Roleplaying forum, though I doubt it'll ever see the light of day.

Someone once asked me if I wanted medieval Summerset, and you know what? They were darn right I do. Liberal medieval Summerset. As for a High Rock redesign, yeah, I doubt that is even going to be considered. And besides, all of High Rock's fauna is found in other parts of Tamriel. There is nothing interesting or unique about Bretons or High Rock so long as ZOS continue to be implicit in the lore they deliver, rather than explicit.

Yes, gladly, let's continue then if you're willing.

With House Dufort book it will be misinterpretation of words, hope you don't mind me being plain and won't consider this rude. "In this rare case, it was through loyalty, shrewd practices, and above all, patience.". This particular case is rare, because the elevation was achieved through patience and loyalty, unlike usual famous High Rock way of intrigue and scheming among nobles. Remember Helseth? After spending the youth in court intrigues of Wayrest he completely dominated Morrowind political landscape.
The misinterpretation is the same as with "aged like a breton". Cassynder aged like a breton, because he was half-dunmer, half-breton, and he aged like a breton, to make it precise breton genes were dominating among the 2, which didn't help his poor health with his quick human aging.


Breton intrigues are also the thing that need more shine, right. You know the book Guide to the Daggerfall Covenant? It always stroke me how very convenient it was for Emeric Cumberland that entire Gardner Dynasty just died out from Tamriel's Corona. I always had a theory that Emeric had to poison them or not curing them with the ability to do so, perhaps thinking of greater good like escaping political stagnation or seeing himself as a more suitable ruler (and perhaps being right). This is such a bretonic thing to do. I wonder if the original writer (developer) of this book had in mind this interpretation of events. Would be interesting to see if political opponents of Emeric Cumberland would accuse him of secretly killing Gardners no matter if this thing is true or not, as a way to darken his image to people. This would also make Emeric more sympathetic to me, as nothing I hate more than black/white dichotomy, and I simply don't buy "positive" characters. I'm not forcing this idea and respect another vision, although it would be nice see this at least theorized in-universe.

Now back in the saddle. Oh yes, opportunists can say Telvanni is meritocratic, but should I remind you how many people this person who's author of those words killed and cheated to gain the high position? Should I remind you that Telvanni accept killing political opponents as absolutely normal?
No. The only meritocracy of dunmer would be Clockwork City. Small world of mostly peaceful scientists. That can work as meritocracy.

Same goes for Skyrim. Yes, I'm fully aware it's not necessary to be a jock to be a thane, but Skyrim's culture is undeniable heavily focused on struggle presented by harsh weather and fauna. It's very well reflected in the single best Skyrim item description - Crafted from horker leather and metal reworked from weapons, this circlet marks your lofty status among the Nords. Even their aristocratic fancy things heavily connected with death and war.

Knighthood being central and distinguishing feature of High Rock with some cases of knights being present in other countries/cultures doesn't really steal High Rock's flair. Again, it's only strengthen the rule with all those little exceptions. There are a lot of funny examples of things becoming strongly associated with particular cultures not even being native to them. Tea, for example. 1 000+ in China yet it's 100% british thing. Or the song Sweet Home Alabama written by people who weren't even living there (weird trivia that I know). I'm saying this because there are some peculiar headcanons that knighthood originated from ayleids, and breton plumes are remnants of ayleid fascinations with bird symbols (It's not my text and ideas, I would never force my writings to others like that). I'm not fan of yet another masquerading of the Divines as cultural heroes, but some ideas are quite good.
And yes, I'm totally up for the idea that Buoyant Armigers could be inspired by breton knights, seeing how Vivec wants to absorb every culture (He wishes to be all things at all times. Every race, every gender, every hero, both divine and finite...). I even used this idea in text RP I host for 3 years now, if you can believe it.

Another notion I want to disprove. "Bretons have had zero influence on the world stage." Not only bretons are extremely influential, I would go as far as naming them the single most influential nation in all the Tamriel. They influenced Cyrodiil for almost a thousand years by the time of TESO only. We can stop right here, because if you influence the literal center of the world, you influence all, yet let's check another examples. They owned Septim Dynasty. They got their ways adopted even by remote Elsweyr (note that bretons mentioned first, then imperials): one, two, three. I can easily see a picture of a breton becoming the first non-dunmeri Ordinator, mirroring the story of William Adams.


As of Rights it's seems we came to circling around. In the very first message I wrote to you I said that Constitution just can't be unique to bretons. It would unnecessary diminish other counties and nations. Tamriel is not Hyboria or Middle-Earth or I don't know what other your stereotypical fantasy land. You see for yourself now that similar things were even in the first Orsinium, a land that could've been truly something Hyboria-like from the first glance. Without a doubt, sophisticated law system of High Rock is welcome. I mentioned your question among the interesting right from the start for a reason. Law system lore would work especially good if it'll be made good enough in-universe to considered the best, and the one that inspired other countries law systems through millenia. There should be a lot of laws taking to account High Rock's unique characteristics, like heavy use of magic: law considering the use of spells, and the possible loopholes those spells can create. For example, would it be considered a crime if mysticism teacher accidentally driven a pupil insane? Or this would pass on as a collateral damage? Do mysticism teachers sign up some papers so they take no responsibility for the possibility of students going loony? Do doctors study necromancy? To what extent is necromancy or blood magic use is acceptable in saving lives (like reanimating some malfunctioning organ)? What if a doctor breaks a law of allowed necromancy / blood magic appliance but saves a life? If a ghost or a skeleton of a dead person escapes from a family crypt and kills an innocent would this crime pass on living descendants, like some money debts do? What laws govern which daedra are acceptable to summon depending on the situation? Say, for people like Cabal? Like summoning an ogrim service would be available only for people who have mages diploma (we already established there are a ton of universities in High Rock in the earlier messages), but, say, summoning a havocrel would be a crime even in case of self-defense?


I can cook up more questions like that, using healthy amount of logic and a bit of creativity. It's not easy, and it's equally not easy to answer them, especially minding the bigger universe behind you, but worthy nonetheless, if you want to do something unique.

You said correct: bretons are smart and intelligent, inventive and creative. Creating smart characters and, all the more so, cultures, is extremely difficult. It's a global problem, not limited to anything, any form of art, any medium, sadly. People don't understand what being "intelligent" means for starters. Usually, intelligent character plays chess and engages in witty banter with others, creating a macguffin that saves the day in the end: bringing an army, stopping a rocket, creating a weapon, et cetera. We don't really see their smarts: suddenly they just solve everything. Fanfics and roleplay plots I saw are also uninspired in that way, full of silly, to put it lightly, boring characters who solve mudane evil-because-evil plots with sudden macguffin solutions.
Bretons are perfect in that way. They just inspire you to be creative with roleplay. They can't catch your eye alone by their designs, like dunmeri do. They have to be interesting as characters, and the only way for that is to make them intelligent. Their law book, concerning all the spell and enchantment and alchemy crimes and limitations, could be a true creativity fest with right approach.

It fits so much that bretons favor Julianos, god of logic, rationality and intellect. You know that Eliezer Yudkowsky, one of the leading Artificial Intelligence theorists and rationalists of our time, is into roleplay and fanfics, so to say, and wrote some extremely illuminating guides and books on how to optimize your mind, and minds of characters you create? I'm not sure how much of it can be found free on the internet, but parts are available.

CoolBlast3 wrote: »

There's zero point to loremaster archives if they continue this way, but I do adore the concept of them, and hope ZOS takes this feedback to heart.

CoolBlast3 wrote: »

If the writers read this, and I hope they do, then give Bretons some unique and interesting lore, PLEASE.