High Isle - What Did it Do for Bretons? (Lore Spoilers, No Story Spoilers)

BlissfulDeluge

INTRODUCTION:
Just so we're clear, there are both things that I like and dislike, and I am sure plenty of people have enjoyed or will enjoy the content and lore. If you enjoyed the chapter, good for you! I am happy for you. This is just a lore analysis going over what I think was done well, what I think could have been done better, and what I am hoping to see before the year is done as far as improving the Bretons’ image goes. I wrote two other threads on this subject, the first expressing hope for the year’s teaser, and the second expressing disappointment with the priorities of the reveal. This will probably be the last thread I cook up on the subject. TL;DR at the bottom.

With that said, here are some canon descriptions of the Bretons:

Dialogue from TES3:
"Passionate and eccentric, poetic and flamboyant, intelligent and willful, Bretons feel an inborn, instinctive bond with the mercurial forces of magic and the supernatural. Many great sorcerers have come from their home province of High Rock, and in addition to their quick and perceptive grasp of spellcraft, enchantment, and alchemy, even the humblest of Bretons can boast a high resistance to destructive and dominating magical energies."

ESO’s pre-release Daggerfall Covenant Description:
“Passionate and flamboyant, intelligent and resourceful, the Bretons are renowned and talented craftsmen, shrewd merchants, gallant cavaliers, and inventive wizards.”

TES2’s King Edward, Part IX:
“Bretons like things explained, clear and reasonable, in sequence, so one thing follows from another, and you know where you are.”

ESO’s Breton Motif:
“The gleaming heavy armor of a Breton knight is as tough and practical as that of a Nord housecarl, but its pleasing form exhibits a subtle sophistication that is reminiscent of Elven elegance. One sees the same influence in Breton weaponry, which is beautiful yet undeniably deadly.”

Excerpt from ‘The Bretons: Mongrels or Paragons?’:
“The passionate race of Bretons embodies the strengths of both Men and Mer—as well as their flaws.”

Excerpt from ‘Orcs? Could Be Worse’:
“And if there's one thing Bretons know how to do, it's make money. Well, it's not the only thing we do, but you get the idea.”

These descriptions speak of an inherently magical race known for their intelligence, resourcefulness, inventiveness, creativity and mercantile pursuits. A race that is a middle ground between Elven and human races, taking the best from both worlds and pursuing elegance without compromising on practicality. It’s what made me fall in love with the Bretons. Yes, Bretons have an undeniably “generic” appearance with their medieval aesthetic, the same way Nords have a viking aesthetic and Imperials have a Roman aesthetic. I love the medieval flair as an aesthetic, but my biggest problem is that the writers have largely chosen to take lore inspiration from their aesthetic inspiration, which is arguably the greatest contributor to their reputation as bland and boring due to how the medieval setting saturates the fantasy genre.

So what did High Isle do for the Bretons?

THE GOOD:
I love the amount of eccentric and flamboyant Bretons we meet, from the quirky Valentyn Dantaine and Moric Guidroz, to the “charming” Jakarn, Sir Coliinean Maurard, and Sir Langley. The lore on Tobin Moorcroft and his building of the Colossus with craft-mages is great, as are the various plots and schemes you find in quests throughout the chapter. I especially liked “The All Flags Curse” on the All Flags Islet and “An Experiment with Peace“ at the Steadfast Manor. Squire Rayan also made for an exemplary scholastic knight, and the Tribute players in the Wayrest chapter are delightfully insufferable.

The druid lore is stellar, and I am really excited that ZOS decided to explore the Bretons’ human roots. It was great to see the Wyrd be reaffirmed to be Bretons culturally, as with the introduction of Reachman lore with Markarth, many people I know had begun to see the Wyrd as being Reachmen instead of Bretons. I am also glad to see that the History of House Dufort showed how anyone can climb to the ranks of nobility, given enough time, guile and resources. I also fell in love with Count Damard Dufort, who confirmed that all Bretons, no matter who they might be, have at least some magical talent.

THE BAD:
Despite the Bretons’ reputation as inventive and intelligent, there is nothing in the chapter that reflects this reputation. There are no books on the Bretons' philosophy, no books on the laws protecting the citizens of High Rock, no respected Breton academies or universities, and no inventive Bretons or books on inventions created by Bretons. While Altmer got full-fledged clocks with Summerset, this chapter only gave the Bretons pitiful bucket sundials. Though Tales of Tribute originated in High Isle, none of the game's creators are Bretons. They consist of a Redguard, an Altmer, an Orc, a Nord and a Bosmer. Zero Bretons. There is also a tragically low amount of variety in food furnishings, despite how some of the best cooks have been Bretons. I would have loved to see food such as souffle, chocolate, croissants, pizza and pancakes, but instead all we got was seafood. And a very small amount of it, too, compared to the food variety found in other chapters.

Unfortunately, one of the chapter’s strong points is also one of its weakest. My biggest gripe with the druids is that they separate themselves from the city-dwellers culturally, creating a troubling dichotomy between “cool anti-establishment nature-dwelling Bretons” and “boring mainstream city-dwelling Bretons,” analogous to the Dunmeri Ashlanders and housemen. This means that lore that druids get isn’t necessarily applied to the city-dwellers, such as how the druids call themselves “manmer,” which the mainstream Bretons unfortunately do not. I am honestly worried if the unique take on the conflict between Men and Mer that @ZOS_LeamonTuttle promised us will be something acknowledged and believed by all Bretons, or if it will be an exclusively druidic belief. Furthermore, druids are not shown to live on the mainland in High Rock, and the Q4 prologue claims they haven't for centuries. They feel so far removed from Bretondom that they are virtually unimportant.

A big problem with the writing is that the writers operate off of Todd Howard’s credo that, “If magic suddenly disappeared from the world, most people wouldn’t notice.” While I am aware of Todd’s seniority at Bethesda Game Studios, I would respectfully like to remind everyone that this is The Elder Scrolls, which has an in-universe “Mages Guild” that the average person seems to be aware of. Unless the average person avoids social interactions at all cost, most people would realistically talk about it if the continent-spanning magic monopoly with a facility in the majority of cities and townships in Tamriel became obsolete. Not to mention the sheer amount of spellcasters we encounter in every faction that would suddenly become powerless, the magical shops set up in every town and city that would be out of business, or the implications of the Tribunal losing their powers. You can argue that Howard is right when magic becomes less prominent in 4E, but we are in 2E, so I think it is senseless to apply that to TESO. By shoehorning a low fantasy vision into the game, the writers are robbing the Bretons of one of their key traits, while still letting the Altmer keep their famous magical institutions, letting the Bosmer keep their magical green singing necessary to grow their homes, and letting the Dunmer keep their living gods and magical mushroom towers. In my opinion, it is entirely out of touch with the setting.

MISSED OPPORTUNITIES:
While I think the lore of the knightly orders introduced with the island is mostly good, the notion that the Oaken Order somehow makes members of a continent-spanning magic monopoly feel threatened is ludicrous. I would be more inclined to believe the claim if the Oaken Order threatened the Mages Guild's interests on the Systres specifically, or if the claim had been made about a Bretonic magical institution as capable and renowned as the College of Sapiarchs. Because the Oaken order is tucked away on some faraway islands, saying that they threaten members of the Mages Guild comes across as baseless posturing. Why the Bretons did not get any renowned educational institutions when they are canonically regarded as an intellectual race baffles me.

The main quest’s focus on classism in Breton society sounds good on paper, but I think too little effort is made to highlight the differences between the classes and what sort of benefits people get from being part of a higher caste aside from the obvious wealth and influence. Without showcasing how the classism in High Rock makes it different from the rest of Tamriel, the main quest could essentially have been told anywhere else and still made perfect sense. I think something that could have made the Bretons’ classism interesting would be to make it segregating, with certain privileges only being reserved for certain classes, or services refusing to serve certain castes.

Noble Ranks and Titles speaks of unique customs in the different regions of High Rock, but the subcultures of these regions are not explored. I would have loved to read lorebooks on the subcultures of Stormhaven, Rivenspire and Bangkorai written in the same vein as Glenumbra’s People or Glenumbra’s Towns and Cities.

I am very disappointed to see that the chapter did not revitalize TES2 lore like the creation myth about the Light and the Dark or the pantheon of minor Breton gods. I think it would be interesting to see Bretons perhaps have a more rationalizing take on the conflict between Anu and Padomay and the birth of the Aurbis, given their reputation as a race of logicians. It was also disappointing to not get lore on the history of King Edward and the Immortal Sage.

Ember has a neat story, but I think a Direnni companion would have been a good opportunity to explore the modern relationship between the Bretons and Clan Direnni, or even dive into the Direnni account of their own downfall, as their perspective has never been properly explored. I am also disappointed to see that the Society of the Steadfast is not led by a Breton family like the Motierres, who are well-established and already recognized as nobility in Cyrodiil in 2E.

While it was nice to get lore on the Bretons’ views on honor, when comparing it to real-life chivalric values it reads like a complete copy of the ten chivalric commandments. A huge opportunity was missed by not exploring how the Bretons rationalize scheming and politicking as honorable, such as how they could argue that assassinating political opponents would save more lives than forcing a population to starve through a siege. To copy real-life chivalric values almost entirely is both bland and boring, and does not improve the Bretons’ poor reputation.

I immediately fell in love with Sergeant Dupertuis and Charbel Pamarc, whose dialogue I used to ask about the Rights Charter and legal protections in Breton society for the Loremaster Q&A. Why was the Q&A a missed opportunity? Because 1), it was phrased in a way that made it difficult to ask questions relevant to all Bretons, 2), it was heavily delayed, and 3), when it finally did arrive, almost all the questions that were answered were already answered in-game, defeating the point of hosting the Q&A. As was pointed out by lorehounds in one thread, and then later reaffirmed in another, the Loremaster Q&A's are meant to answer questions NOT answered in-game. Reaffirming the Rights Charter would have been a perfect opportunity to illustrate why the Bretons are regarded as intelligent and more enlightened than the rest of Tamriel. It is not even that far-fetched, in my opinion, as the Orcs of the First Orsinium also had a charter granting them rights. The Rights Charter can also coexist with Amenos, as modern democracies with constitutions also operate prison camps with inhumane conditions.

I was glad to see the Bretons receive multicultural influences with the bardic performances played on the Swedish Nyckelharpa, but the songs do not really add anything to Breton culture at large. I would have loved to hear bardic performances about profiteering, politicking and upward mobility, or Breton values such as freedom and honor, but sadly, the music focuses specifically on life on the Systres. It does not feel applicable to Bretons in High Rock at all.

I love the Dutch Imperial influences that the chapter introduced with House Dufort’s shipbuilding, providing ships for “every navy afloat,” but this lore is diminished by Colovian engineers designing the All-Flags Fleet instead of Bretons. Sure, Breton laborers built the fleet, but not letting them mastermind its creation takes away from their reputation as intelligent and creative thinkers at best, and at worst boils them down to being a cheap labor race. It essentially robs them of what could have been one of their greatest achievements, which is just a spit in the face when the accomplished Direnni were retconned to be Altmer.

TL;DR:
To me, High Isle does not feel like a Breton chapter. It feels like an Imperial chapter that relegates the Bretons to being the Empire’s henchmen. Little of the lore introduced in the chapter is applicable to Bretons in High Rock due to how the druids reject the mainstream Breton culture, as well as the focus on the island culture rather than Breton culture at large. The applicable lore that we do get is mostly the same bland generic medieval stuff that most people think makes the Bretons boring. I have honestly seen far more enthusiasm for the Imperial lore, Maormer lore and Redguard lore on High Isle.

As someone who loves Bretons and who wanted to see this year do their descriptions justice, I feel immensely disappointed with what has been delivered with Q1 and Q2, and so I need to ask, WHERE are the Elven influences on their society? WHERE is the Rights Charter? WHERE are the famed and powerful Breton mages one would expect to see when they are such a magically inclined race? WHY are there no Breton theaters? WHY are there no prestigious magical institutes that rival the Mages Guild? WHY are there no books about Bretonic philosophy? WHY are there no Breton inventors? WHY does their classism not have any depth? All this would have helped to make the Bretons more interesting, and yet none of it is seen. None!

So what can be done to help the Bretons at this point? Personally, I hope that Q3 and Q4 will add unique lore that is relevant to both mainstream Bretons and druidic Bretons as well as lore that connects the two, and lore that reflects their descriptions of being intelligent and inventive. (Heck, I’d gladly volunteer to write a few lorebooks if I could.) Dividing the druidic Bretons and mainstream Bretons, then giving more interesting lore to the former than the latter is not a good start to pulling them out of their reputation as the “bland, generic fantasy” race, since the medieval fantasy is what people generally think makes the mainstream Bretons boring. If Q3 and Q4 continue to explore the druids and leave mainstream Bretons in their current state, I fear that their reputation will never be fixed. As a fan of Bretons, I sincerely hoped that ZOS would redeem them by making them less generic, but with what has been delivered so far I am honestly starting to lose interest in the race.

What are people’s thoughts on this? Do you agree with my sentiment that the mainstream Bretons need to be given lore that makes them less generic, or do you think the chapter has improved their public image?

Ratzkifal

Well said.
The only thing I want to add is about Todd Howard's statement, which can very well still be true in ESO's time (aside from economic ripple effects etc). The reason being that humans outnumber the elves and that in Redguard, Nord and Imperial society mages are not as common as they are with the Bretons, High Elves and Dark Elves. Orcs and Bosmer also contribute a lot of nonmagickal people to the overall population, thus allowing for the average person to have no connection to magic in their day to day lives, even if it would majorly screw things up locally (like in High Rock, Summerset and Valenwood mainly due to a housing crisis) - so the point you made still stands regardless of whether Todd is right or not.

But yeah, a proper caste system would have been interesting, especially because it doesn't have to be grounded in real world history. You could have a peasant caste of people without name or magic, a caste above them of people who are at least able to use magic, a caste above them of accomplished scholars, important families and knightly orders and a noble caste above them who can trace their lineage back to the times of Elven rule in true mer fashion.
Considering how little effort it took me to come up with this on the spot, it's disappointing that these things haven't been fleshed out yet.

KingArthasMenethil

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Well said.
The only thing I want to add is about Todd Howard's statement, which can very well still be true in ESO's time (aside from economic ripple effects etc). The reason being that humans outnumber the elves and that in Redguard, Nord and Imperial society mages are not as common as they are with the Bretons, High Elves and Dark Elves. Orcs and Bosmer also contribute a lot of nonmagickal people to the overall population, thus allowing for the average person to have no connection to magic in their day to day lives, even if it would majorly screw things up locally (like in High Rock, Summerset and Valenwood mainly due to a housing crisis) - so the point you made still stands regardless of whether Todd is right or not.

But yeah, a proper caste system would have been interesting, especially because it doesn't have to be grounded in real world history. You could have a peasant caste of people without name or magic, a caste above them of people who are at least able to use magic, a caste above them of accomplished scholars, important families and knightly orders and a noble caste above them who can trace their lineage back to the times of Elven rule in true mer fashion.
Considering how little effort it took me to come up with this on the spot, it's disappointing that these things haven't been fleshed out yet.

I feel the "Imperial society mages not being as common" is just the games not portraying Nibenay well at all (or just about any culture of Cyrodiil) which also slides into TES issue of not getting Battlemages ingame an issue TES4 and 5 have.

CoolBlast3

There's nothing I can add here that wouldn't just be droning onto points you already made. Especially the fact Druids aren't intergrated into Breton society despite even High Isle lore books claiming they are.
The loremaster's archive especially annoyed me, but you mentioned that here too.

So yeah, agree 100% with all you said, both the good and the bad.

Ratzkifal

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Well said.
The only thing I want to add is about Todd Howard's statement, which can very well still be true in ESO's time (aside from economic ripple effects etc). The reason being that humans outnumber the elves and that in Redguard, Nord and Imperial society mages are not as common as they are with the Bretons, High Elves and Dark Elves. Orcs and Bosmer also contribute a lot of nonmagickal people to the overall population, thus allowing for the average person to have no connection to magic in their day to day lives, even if it would majorly screw things up locally (like in High Rock, Summerset and Valenwood mainly due to a housing crisis) - so the point you made still stands regardless of whether Todd is right or not.

But yeah, a proper caste system would have been interesting, especially because it doesn't have to be grounded in real world history. You could have a peasant caste of people without name or magic, a caste above them of people who are at least able to use magic, a caste above them of accomplished scholars, important families and knightly orders and a noble caste above them who can trace their lineage back to the times of Elven rule in true mer fashion.
Considering how little effort it took me to come up with this on the spot, it's disappointing that these things haven't been fleshed out yet.

I feel the "Imperial society mages not being as common" is just the games not portraying Nibenay well at all (or just about any culture of Cyrodiil) which also slides into TES issue of not getting Battlemages ingame an issue TES4 and 5 have.

Imperial mages are certainly more common among their people than is the case for Nords and Redguards, but with the whole Colovia/Nibenay divide and not every single person in Nibenay being a mage, my assumption was that Imperials are still a net-negative to magic being a big part of life in Tamriel. For the Imperials that's still enough to give them that reputation of having these Battlemages and forming special schools and institutions like the mages guild, but other than the services they offer I can still see magic being a somewhat exclusive thing in Imperial society (Nibenay included). At least Imperials don't need the magic to be an interesting culture, so I'd rather leave that to the Bretons.

My expectations for Bretons are that at least 50% of the Breton population if not more know at least one basic spell. That alone would already have huge societal implications, even if it was something as basic as mage light. Imagine the mediterranean culture of staying up way past sundown being a big part of Breton culture, because everyone has their personal mage light. Bretons being nightowls who party all the way into the evening and are tired in the morning as a stereotype for them is already really refreshing because it sets them apart from the other human races. Bretons having invented fire brigades and safety measures because too many times has a fire spell set a building on fire. The fire brigade could even be a knightly order itself.
There are already endless possibilities with just a couple of small changes. We don't even need to get too far into high fantasy territory to get fascinating results.

Vylaera

I agree 100% with the sentiments here. What also would have been interesting is the societal conflict that arises when some breton subcultures embrace their elven roots (glenumbra) and some reject it (rivenspire, stormhaven), which was a huge missed opportunity in the base game.

For all of the reasons you gave and more, I personally ignore ESO lore (not just for bretons either, but for all the races, I totally disregard ESO lore as canon until BGS includes it in TES VI simply because of how lazy, generic, and uninspired it is) and will instead wait for BGS to write new lore for bretons that will actually (hopefully) be inspired.

Thevampirenight

Vylaera wrote: »

I agree 100% with the sentiments here. What also would have been interesting is the societal conflict that arises when some breton subcultures embrace their elven roots (glenumbra) and some reject it (rivenspire, stormhaven), which was a huge missed opportunity in the base game.

For all of the reasons you gave and more, I personally ignore ESO lore (not just for bretons either, but for all the races, I totally disregard ESO lore as canon until BGS includes it in TES VI simply because of how lazy, generic, and uninspired it is) and will instead wait for BGS to write new lore for bretons that will actually (hopefully) be inspired.

ESO is officially canon according to Bethesda that is a fact basically.
Everything in ESO is canon according to Bethesda, that means that ESO lore likely will at least be included in some form, oh and if you look at Legends a Bethesda game, it technically has been. In some ways. They have cards that include a lot of stuff from ESO in them.
So like it or not ESO and everything they do is Canon.

Jazraena

I agree with much here, but I really have to stress that the monolithical appearance of the Mage's Guild in this era is very overblown.

They may be far-flung, but hardly monopolistic (especially in places such as Morrowind), and in particular post-Soulburst they are a greatly weakened organization whose reputation may or may not be all that stellar.

Ratzkifal

Jazraena wrote: »

I agree with much here, but I really have to stress that the monolithical appearance of the Mage's Guild in this era is very overblown.

They may be far-flung, but hardly monopolistic (especially in places such as Morrowind), and in particular post-Soulburst they are a greatly weakened organization whose reputation may or may not be all that stellar.

I love the Mage's Guild in Sadrith Mora. It's literally just a small rundown tent and a guy boasting about how great the mages guild is while standing in the shade of Tel Naga.

BlissfulDeluge

Jazraena wrote: »

I agree with much here, but I really have to stress that the monolithical appearance of the Mage's Guild in this era is very overblown.

They may be far-flung, but hardly monopolistic (especially in places such as Morrowind), and in particular post-Soulburst they are a greatly weakened organization whose reputation may or may not be all that stellar.

I have to disagree with this, because regardless of their receiving the blame in the wake of the Soulburst, they also played a pivotal part in ending it, which realistically speaking would redeem them in the eyes of the public, I think.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see unique magical institutions in High Rock/Breton lands, it's one of the things I am in favor of with this year's content, but sadly the Mages Guild over-saturates magical academia in ESO, so I think the natural conclusion is that they are that monopolistic.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

But yeah, a proper caste system would have been interesting, especially because it doesn't have to be grounded in real world history. You could have a peasant caste of people without name or magic, a caste above them of people who are at least able to use magic, a caste above them of accomplished scholars, important families and knightly orders and a noble caste above them who can trace their lineage back to the times of Elven rule in true mer fashion.
Considering how little effort it took me to come up with this on the spot, it's disappointing that these things haven't been fleshed out yet.

Sergeant Dupertuis confirms that High Rock have trials where convictions of guilt require incriminating evidence. Imagine if High Rock courts did not grant a right to remain silent, but instead mandated silence from the lower classes, allowed members of the middle class to speak in their own defense, and allowed the upper class to bring in a legal defense team.

Or if city magistrates were not appointed, but elected, and only members of the middle and upper classes could vote.

Or heck, take the Rights Charter. What if it had an Arms Mandate that went something like "The right to keep and bear arms being universally recognized, and the defense of High Rock and her holdings being the duty of every citizen, the Arms Mandate stipulates that all citizens must either possess a weapon or display aptitude in the use of offensive spells."

The classism in High Rock is a bare canvas, ready to be painted on. I would love to see them go crazy with it, and make the feudal hierarchy of Bretons actually stand out.

KingArthasMenethil

I feel they left the City Bretons as bland because they wanted to connect the city Bretons to those in High Rock when honestly they should've just done something with the city Bretons and then later (however long that takes) apply these updates to High Rock. I see similar things with the Imperials post TES4 given their lack of culture to fit with their TES4 version.

BlissfulDeluge

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

I feel they left the City Bretons as bland because they wanted to connect the city Bretons to those in High Rock when honestly they should've just done something with the city Bretons and then later (however long that takes) apply these updates to High Rock. I see similar things with the Imperials post TES4 given their lack of culture to fit with their TES4 version.

I wholeheartedly agree. Honestly, even with city Bretons in their vanilla state they could have gone whichever way they wanted by writing lorebooks applicable to all Bretons. Like say if they wrote books with titles like "Bretonic Law," "The History of Knighthood" etc. etc.

I feel like ZOS have shot themselves in the foot, though. Take Antiquities, for example. The writers utterly retconned the Breton nobility taking pride in their Elven heritage, instead of making it exclusive to Rivenspire where the antiquity is found. I would have loved to see cultural diversity in High Rock like that, with some regions being proud of their Direnni ancestors and others being ashamed.

Jazraena

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

I agree with much here, but I really have to stress that the monolithical appearance of the Mage's Guild in this era is very overblown.

They may be far-flung, but hardly monopolistic (especially in places such as Morrowind), and in particular post-Soulburst they are a greatly weakened organization whose reputation may or may not be all that stellar.

I have to disagree with this, because regardless of their receiving the blame in the wake of the Soulburst, they also played a pivotal part in ending it, which realistically speaking would redeem them in the eyes of the public, I think.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see unique magical institutions in High Rock/Breton lands, it's one of the things I am in favor of with this year's content, but sadly the Mages Guild over-saturates magical academia in ESO, so I think the natural conclusion is that they are that monopolistic.

That speaks towards a potentially conflicted reputation depending on local rep, which would have been cool to explore. As is however, the game very much presents us with a variety of different arcane institutions or experts beyond the Mage's Guild. Telvanni, Shad Astula, the Psijics, the Coterie, the Oaken Order, Winterhold is also a thing still. Sure, in some places the Guild dominates because they're just that close to the former Empire, but in others, they're just present.

BlissfulDeluge

Jazraena wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

I agree with much here, but I really have to stress that the monolithical appearance of the Mage's Guild in this era is very overblown.

They may be far-flung, but hardly monopolistic (especially in places such as Morrowind), and in particular post-Soulburst they are a greatly weakened organization whose reputation may or may not be all that stellar.

I have to disagree with this, because regardless of their receiving the blame in the wake of the Soulburst, they also played a pivotal part in ending it, which realistically speaking would redeem them in the eyes of the public, I think.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see unique magical institutions in High Rock/Breton lands, it's one of the things I am in favor of with this year's content, but sadly the Mages Guild over-saturates magical academia in ESO, so I think the natural conclusion is that they are that monopolistic.

That speaks towards a potentially conflicted reputation depending on local rep, which would have been cool to explore. As is however, the game very much presents us with a variety of different arcane institutions or experts beyond the Mage's Guild. Telvanni, Shad Astula, the Psijics, the Coterie, the Oaken Order, Winterhold is also a thing still. Sure, in some places the Guild dominates because they're just that close to the former Empire, but in others, they're just present.

Sure, there's a variety of organizations, but none of which are shown to have the resources to be as far-flung as the Mages Guild is. Heck, even on the Gold Coast and in Blackwood, where they would realistically have been ousted given they received the blame for the Soulburst, they still appear to operate without any overt resistance/negative public opinion.

I'd very much like to see more competing arcane universities, but when there are only so many of them, I think that more than likely, the Mages Guild has largely absorbed and/or replaced other academia. I think it's poor world-building, but the lore do be like that sometimes.

I'd love to see a few "Mages Guildhalls" that are actually just other scholarly institutions where a representative of the Mages Guild just happens to hang out and shamelessly advertise how much "better" the Mages Guild is.

Jazraena

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Sure, there's a variety of organizations, but none of which are shown to have the resources to be as far-flung as the Mages Guild is. Heck, even on the Gold Coast and in Blackwood, where they would realistically have been ousted given they received the blame for the Soulburst, they still appear to operate without any overt resistance/negative public opinion.

I'd very much like to see more competing arcane universities, but when there are only so many of them, I think that more than likely, the Mages Guild has largely absorbed and/or replaced other academia. I think it's poor world-building, but the lore do be like that sometimes.

I'd love to see a few "Mages Guildhalls" that are actually just other scholarly institutions where a representative of the Mages Guild just happens to hang out and shamelessly advertise how much "better" the Mages Guild is.

As said, they are far-flung. That says nothing about local importance, local reputation, and it most definitely doesn't say anything about them absorbing local institutions. That's pure conjecture from players.

And we do have an example of what you seek - Western Skyrim, where the Mage's Guild can't breathe without the Coterie of Organized Scholars giving them the go-ahead. An equally obvious example of where the Mage's Guild plays second fiddle is Telvanni Territory, and of course Deshaan, where everyone only talks about Shad Astula - a Pact academy from which the Mage's Guild actively copies the curriculum because it's more effective.

And the Sapiarchs and Psijics outlast them anyway.

BlissfulDeluge

Jazraena wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Sure, there's a variety of organizations, but none of which are shown to have the resources to be as far-flung as the Mages Guild is. Heck, even on the Gold Coast and in Blackwood, where they would realistically have been ousted given they received the blame for the Soulburst, they still appear to operate without any overt resistance/negative public opinion.

I'd very much like to see more competing arcane universities, but when there are only so many of them, I think that more than likely, the Mages Guild has largely absorbed and/or replaced other academia. I think it's poor world-building, but the lore do be like that sometimes.

I'd love to see a few "Mages Guildhalls" that are actually just other scholarly institutions where a representative of the Mages Guild just happens to hang out and shamelessly advertise how much "better" the Mages Guild is.

As said, they are far-flung. That says nothing about local importance, local reputation, and it most definitely doesn't say anything about them absorbing local institutions. That's pure conjecture from players.

And we do have an example of what you seek - Western Skyrim, where the Mage's Guild can't breathe without the Coterie of Organized Scholars giving them the go-ahead. An equally obvious example of where the Mage's Guild plays second fiddle is Telvanni Territory, and of course Deshaan, where everyone only talks about Shad Astula - a Pact academy from which the Mage's Guild actively copies the curriculum because it's more effective.

And the Sapiarchs and Psijics outlast them anyway.

And again, I would love to see other institutions taking their place. When we only see so many other institutions than the Mages Guild, the implication is that they are largely accepted and the mainstream. The Coterie of Organized Scholars is a good example of anti-guild resentment, but unfortunately it is an outlier, not the norm.

Jazraena

Sorry, but what you call implication, I see as assumption based on how widespread they are, rather on how they may be viewed locally, to the point that it becomes outright bizarre in places like Morrowind. Presence is not Dominance.

BlissfulDeluge

Jazraena wrote: »

Sorry, but what you call implication, I see as assumption based on how widespread they are, rather on how they may be viewed locally, to the point that it becomes outright bizarre in places like Morrowind. Presence is not Dominance.

And yet we see very few instances where there is outright resistance or opposition to the Mages Guild. It is equally if not more assumptive to conclude that they are disliked if no opposition is shown. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this particular subject. Either way it has no bearing on the crux of my argument, which is that they are widespread enough that essentially all people would realize if they were gone.

Ratzkifal

Honestly, I don't mind the Mages Guild being strong in High Rock because we've been told that the Bretons sort of hijack everything Imperial, influencing the Imperials more than being influenced by them.
But that would still look a bit different than what we got in High Isle, where the Mages Guild is just sort of... there.
From the Bretons I would expect that they'd have a number of magic schools all over the place, all of which have now integrated into the Mages Guild but each having a significantly longer history, because a public education system would have been an exclusively Breton thing before the guilds act copied their idea. And now the Breton schools would have significant influence over the Mages Guild as a whole as most of its renowned teaching staff came from their Breton branches, and where most of their funding comes from and also where most of their funding goes, because the Bretons are using the Mages Guild to funnel the Empire's wealth into their own magic schools with nobody noticing that the Bretons are net-recipients rather than net-contributors. That's how I would do things.

Aliyavana

I love the druid lore, but my issue with them is that they are very distant. I hope there is a line of dialogue or something about efforts to reintroduce druidism to mainstream breton culture to make them more relevant.

I also wanted to hear more about the obscure breton gods that were mentioned in Daggerfall. We got mentions of minor spirits like Una the Green Elk that were invented for High Isle, why not just use pre-existing ones like Raen or Druugada?

Jazraena

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Sorry, but what you call implication, I see as assumption based on how widespread they are, rather on how they may be viewed locally, to the point that it becomes outright bizarre in places like Morrowind. Presence is not Dominance.

And yet we see very few instances where there is outright resistance or opposition to the Mages Guild. It is equally if not more assumptive to conclude that they are disliked if no opposition is shown. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this particular subject. Either way it has no bearing on the crux of my argument, which is that they are widespread enough that essentially all people would realize if they were gone.

See, that's the difference - I am very much not assuming they are disliked or locally weak, except in the obvious places.

I'm merely contending their dominance, simply because that isn't actually shown ingame - that's something very different from what you posit my statement meant. They're everywhere, they're obviously a relevant continental magical player as you'd expect with an organization of it's spread, but we have no statement about their respective local importance and dominance with a scarce few exceptions, while the local importance of Shad Astula, the Telvanni themselves and the Coterie are clearly on display.

BlissfulDeluge

Jazraena wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Sorry, but what you call implication, I see as assumption based on how widespread they are, rather on how they may be viewed locally, to the point that it becomes outright bizarre in places like Morrowind. Presence is not Dominance.

And yet we see very few instances where there is outright resistance or opposition to the Mages Guild. It is equally if not more assumptive to conclude that they are disliked if no opposition is shown. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this particular subject. Either way it has no bearing on the crux of my argument, which is that they are widespread enough that essentially all people would realize if they were gone.

See, that's the difference - I am very much not assuming they are disliked or locally weak, except in the obvious places.

I'm merely contending their dominance, simply because that isn't actually shown ingame - that's something very different from what you posit my statement meant. They're everywhere, they're obviously a relevant continental magical player as you'd expect with an organization of it's spread, but we have no statement about their respective local importance and dominance with a scarce few exceptions, while the local importance of Shad Astula, the Telvanni themselves and the Coterie are clearly on display.

Ah I see, my apologies, I made an assumption off your statement that you thought they were more widely disliked.

I still lean in favor of them being predominant, however, given how widespread they are.

Aliyavana wrote: »

I love the druid lore, but my issue with them is that they are very distant. I hope there is a line of dialogue or something about efforts to reintroduce druidism to mainstream breton culture to make them more relevant.

I also wanted to hear more about the obscure breton gods that were mentioned in Daggerfall. We got mentions of minor spirits like Una the Green Elk that were invented for High Isle, why not just use pre-existing ones like Raen or Druugada?

It's honestly tragic. High Isle was a great opportunity to revitalize and rewrite the TES2 lore, and I would love to see the druids be incorporated into the Breton population.

We might see some more "city druids" on Galen in Q4, but then my fear is that the insinuation will be that city druids are exclusive to Galen, and not accepted as a thing on the mainland. They are far too distant to be considered part of the mainstream, having different religious views, different architectural styles and even differentiating themselves from the mainstream Bretons by calling them their "civilized brethren." It is like Ashlanders to housemen in Dunmer society.

Depending on how early druidism was invented, they are arguably not even ancestors of the Bretons, but rather a sect of Bretons who struck out to do their own thing away from the Direnni and Alessians. That's certainly the insinuation of Wyrd and Druid, with how they did not even worship Y'ffre before the Direnni introduced him to them.

KingArthasMenethil

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Honestly, I don't mind the Mages Guild being strong in High Rock because we've been told that the Bretons sort of hijack everything Imperial, influencing the Imperials more than being influenced by them.
But that would still look a bit different than what we got in High Isle, where the Mages Guild is just sort of... there.
From the Bretons I would expect that they'd have a number of magic schools all over the place, all of which have now integrated into the Mages Guild but each having a significantly longer history, because a public education system would have been an exclusively Breton thing before the guilds act copied their idea. And now the Breton schools would have significant influence over the Mages Guild as a whole as most of its renowned teaching staff came from their Breton branches, and where most of their funding comes from and also where most of their funding goes, because the Bretons are using the Mages Guild to funnel the Empire's wealth into their own magic schools with nobody noticing that the Bretons are net-recipients rather than net-contributors. That's how I would do things.

IMO It's less of a Mages Guild being strong it's more of a Mages Guild drowning out everything else as the Mages Guild tends to take the local magic role. Like for example go to Cyrodiil and you'll only see Mages Guild with nothing for the Nibenese and no other groups despite knowing inlore there are other magic groups in Cyrodiil like the University of Gwylim (offered training in Illusion) and the Battlespire.

Mascen

@BlissfulDelusions

As a crafter, housing enthusiast and Breton main I wholeheartedly agree with your OP. High Isle fell greatly short in alot of aspects.

I think one of the biggest problems is ZOS and Bethesda by large have forgotten the source material for Breton culture, that is to say French in both ancient Gallo-Celtic and medieval Frankish aspects. They've failed to realize that there's tons of variety and regional subcultures to draw ans model Tamriel's Bretons on from the real life namesakes in northwestern France with stunning fortifications like Mont St.Michel, to the Occitan troubadours of Languedoc and Provence (whose topography seems to have inspired High Isle) and the wines of Burgundy.

Beyond a 3rd and final chapter expansion to make up for how underwhelming High Isle has been, I've often advocated that maybe ZOS could spend some time to update the base game zones like Glenumbra or Grahtwood with new graphics, NPCs, costumes, and maybe adjust the terrains a bit since 8 years has shown considerable aging and difference compared to the DLC zones. In regards to the impetus, an updated High Rock would present an opportunity to flesh out the lore with the built up assets ZOS has developed over the years of chapters and DLCs.

BlissfulDeluge

Mascen wrote: »

@BlissfulDelusions

As a crafter, housing enthusiast and Breton main I wholeheartedly agree with your OP. High Isle fell greatly short in alot of aspects.

I think one of the biggest problems is ZOS and Bethesda by large have forgotten the source material for Breton culture, that is to say French in both ancient Gallo-Celtic and medieval Frankish aspects. They've failed to realize that there's tons of variety and regional subcultures to draw ans model Tamriel's Bretons on from the real life namesakes in northwestern France with stunning fortifications like Mont St.Michel, to the Occitan troubadours of Languedoc and Provence (whose topography seems to have inspired High Isle) and the wines of Burgundy.

Beyond a 3rd and final chapter expansion to make up for how underwhelming High Isle has been, I've often advocated that maybe ZOS could spend some time to update the base game zones like Glenumbra or Grahtwood with new graphics, NPCs, costumes, and maybe adjust the terrains a bit since 8 years has shown considerable aging and difference compared to the DLC zones. In regards to the impetus, an updated High Rock would present an opportunity to flesh out the lore with the built up assets ZOS has developed over the years of chapters and DLCs.

I appreciate the support! While I'd love to see High Rock receive a facelift, I doubt that would be a priority, unfortunately. So I would content myself with lorebooks covering the Bretons' historical achievements, influence on Tamriel and their subcultures. Like I said in the OP it'd be great to get lorebooks in the same vein as Glenumbra's People or Glenumbra's Towns and Cities. Like take Wayrest for example, which is said to host festivals that are reminiscent of furry conventions. I would LOVE to read lorebooks on those kinds of cultural quirks.

It might be weird to cram those books into the Q4 DLC if it is going to be Galen, but I think it'd be better than nothing.

Mascen

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Mascen wrote: »

@BlissfulDelusions

As a crafter, housing enthusiast and Breton main I wholeheartedly agree with your OP. High Isle fell greatly short in alot of aspects.

I think one of the biggest problems is ZOS and Bethesda by large have forgotten the source material for Breton culture, that is to say French in both ancient Gallo-Celtic and medieval Frankish aspects. They've failed to realize that there's tons of variety and regional subcultures to draw ans model Tamriel's Bretons on from the real life namesakes in northwestern France with stunning fortifications like Mont St.Michel, to the Occitan troubadours of Languedoc and Provence (whose topography seems to have inspired High Isle) and the wines of Burgundy.

Beyond a 3rd and final chapter expansion to make up for how underwhelming High Isle has been, I've often advocated that maybe ZOS could spend some time to update the base game zones like Glenumbra or Grahtwood with new graphics, NPCs, costumes, and maybe adjust the terrains a bit since 8 years has shown considerable aging and difference compared to the DLC zones. In regards to the impetus, an updated High Rock would present an opportunity to flesh out the lore with the built up assets ZOS has developed over the years of chapters and DLCs.

I appreciate the support! While I'd love to see High Rock receive a facelift, I doubt that would be a priority, unfortunately. So I would content myself with lorebooks covering the Bretons' historical achievements, influence on Tamriel and their subcultures. Like I said in the OP it'd be great to get lorebooks in the same vein as Glenumbra's People or Glenumbra's Towns and Cities. Like take Wayrest for example, which is said to host festivals that are reminiscent of furry conventions. I would LOVE to read lorebooks on those kinds of cultural quirks.

It might be weird to cram those books into the Q4 DLC if it is going to be Galen, but I think it'd be better than nothing.

I say don't content yourself with so little, always reach for more. And it wouldn't be just High Rock alone, but how its done would be a conundrum. Ive often wondered if ZOS could do a DLC that both updates old existing zones with new content while giving them a facelift as well. Valenwood in particular comes to mind because Bosmer stuff is often overlooked. In theory from a mechanical perspective, it should br possible to implement since the games engine already supports dozens of instances across the servers never mind all the player houses.

Issue I suppose is would people buy such a DLC? IMO ZOS put way too much effort into ToT and its been mixed reviews so far compared to say antiquities in Greymoor. So I don't think it would be financially successful unless some really game changing feature or mechanic is added to compensate. That being said though I would kill for it to happen if only to make Wayrest and Daggerfall Castles bigger in the interior. Seriously, most Cyrodiil forts are bigger than Breton Castles.

BlissfulDeluge

Mascen wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Mascen wrote: »

@BlissfulDelusions

As a crafter, housing enthusiast and Breton main I wholeheartedly agree with your OP. High Isle fell greatly short in alot of aspects.

I think one of the biggest problems is ZOS and Bethesda by large have forgotten the source material for Breton culture, that is to say French in both ancient Gallo-Celtic and medieval Frankish aspects. They've failed to realize that there's tons of variety and regional subcultures to draw ans model Tamriel's Bretons on from the real life namesakes in northwestern France with stunning fortifications like Mont St.Michel, to the Occitan troubadours of Languedoc and Provence (whose topography seems to have inspired High Isle) and the wines of Burgundy.

Beyond a 3rd and final chapter expansion to make up for how underwhelming High Isle has been, I've often advocated that maybe ZOS could spend some time to update the base game zones like Glenumbra or Grahtwood with new graphics, NPCs, costumes, and maybe adjust the terrains a bit since 8 years has shown considerable aging and difference compared to the DLC zones. In regards to the impetus, an updated High Rock would present an opportunity to flesh out the lore with the built up assets ZOS has developed over the years of chapters and DLCs.

I appreciate the support! While I'd love to see High Rock receive a facelift, I doubt that would be a priority, unfortunately. So I would content myself with lorebooks covering the Bretons' historical achievements, influence on Tamriel and their subcultures. Like I said in the OP it'd be great to get lorebooks in the same vein as Glenumbra's People or Glenumbra's Towns and Cities. Like take Wayrest for example, which is said to host festivals that are reminiscent of furry conventions. I would LOVE to read lorebooks on those kinds of cultural quirks.

It might be weird to cram those books into the Q4 DLC if it is going to be Galen, but I think it'd be better than nothing.

I say don't content yourself with so little, always reach for more. And it wouldn't be just High Rock alone, but how its done would be a conundrum. Ive often wondered if ZOS could do a DLC that both updates old existing zones with new content while giving them a facelift as well. Valenwood in particular comes to mind because Bosmer stuff is often overlooked. In theory from a mechanical perspective, it should br possible to implement since the games engine already supports dozens of instances across the servers never mind all the player houses.

Issue I suppose is would people buy such a DLC? IMO ZOS put way too much effort into ToT and its been mixed reviews so far compared to say antiquities in Greymoor. So I don't think it would be financially successful unless some really game changing feature or mechanic is added to compensate. That being said though I would kill for it to happen if only to make Wayrest and Daggerfall Castles bigger in the interior. Seriously, most Cyrodiil forts are bigger than Breton Castles.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'd love a base game redesign showing off different Breton cultures in different regions of High Rock, showing theaters and famed scholarly institutions, and making the land more culturally diverse by adding NPCs reflecting all the subcultures, as well as adding unique fauna to High Rock that does not appear anywhere else. And replacing all the darn Ayleid ruins with Direnni ones. It is nice to have SOME Ayleid ruins, but they saturate High Rock far too much. Sadly, though, I don't think ZOS would prioritize that, so my expectations are a little more humble.

If I could volunteer to write a few lorebooks, however, I'd add the following:

• The Rights Charter - A legal document covering the rights of citizens of High Rock, drawing inspiration from historical legal documents such as the Great Charter (1215), the Declaration of the Rights of Man (1789), and the Bill of Rights (1791). Naturally it'd make room for inequality for non-citizens, too.
• Bretonic Inventions - A book speaking of various inventions that have been made by Bretons over the years, naming who created them and when, to reflect their reputation of being inventive mages.
• Bretonic Law - A book going over the Altmeri legal process and what changes Bretons have made to improve it, as well as the role of magistrates in cities and the laws of High Rock. Including jury trials, presumption of innocence and burden of proof.
• Bretonic Philosophy - A book on Bretonic Philosophy penned by Ryain Direnni (whom in another book is rewritten into being a Breton.) Including sayings such as:
  • War is the safest investment.
  • No price is worth your freedom.
  • Find a new hill, become a monarch.
  • Your word is your bond. Add loopholes to your phrasing.
  • Assassinations save cities from starving through sieges.
  • Your enemy is your friend so long as you share enemies.
  • The one you call your servant you may one day call your lord.
  • When odds are stacked against you, honor adapts to circumstance.
    Etc.
• Freedom and Honor - A book covering the relationship between the Breton values of freedom and honor, going over how to approach and balance the two in one's life.
• From Darkness to Light, Life and Death - A rewrite of the Bretonic creation myth The Light and the Dark, taking a more rationalistic approach to Anu and Padomay by regarding them as natural forces rather than personified entities.
• Legacy of the Manmer - A book written by Beredalmo the Signifier providing an account of the Direnni's downfall and the Breton ascension, going over how the Direnni are treated today, as well as touting the Bretons’ abilities and reclaiming some of the famed and accomplished Direnni such as Raven and Ryain as Bretons.
• Social Status - A book on the classes of High Rock society (serfs, lower class, middle-class, upper-class, nobility) and their different privileges.
• The History of Knighthood - A book defining knighthood as a Nedic concept, making Sir Cadwell of the Al-Cuhr tribe in western Stormhaven the oldest knight on record, then making Knightly Orders conceptualized by Ryain Direnni, whose Breton knightly order influenced the Alessian Empire to create the Order of the Hour and Vivec to create the Buoyant Armigers at the coronation of Emperor Gorieus in 1E.
• X's People - Three individual books on the subcultures of Bangkorai, Rivenspire and Stormhaven written in the same vein as Glenumbra's People

Sadly this is all wishful thinking. I doubt we'll see any of this added, but these would be my ideal lorebooks for Q4.

Eporem

For me I know next to nothing of the Breton lore in ESO except for the Beldama Wyrd lore, so I do appreciate reading here the thoughts and insights of those that do know more of the Bretons in the Elder Scrolls world.

Faulgor

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vylaera wrote: »

I agree 100% with the sentiments here. What also would have been interesting is the societal conflict that arises when some breton subcultures embrace their elven roots (glenumbra) and some reject it (rivenspire, stormhaven), which was a huge missed opportunity in the base game.

For all of the reasons you gave and more, I personally ignore ESO lore (not just for bretons either, but for all the races, I totally disregard ESO lore as canon until BGS includes it in TES VI simply because of how lazy, generic, and uninspired it is) and will instead wait for BGS to write new lore for bretons that will actually (hopefully) be inspired.

ESO is officially canon according to Bethesda that is a fact basically.
Everything in ESO is canon according to Bethesda, that means that ESO lore likely will at least be included in some form, oh and if you look at Legends a Bethesda game, it technically has been. In some ways. They have cards that include a lot of stuff from ESO in them.
So like it or not ESO and everything they do is Canon.

Sidestepping the question of the validity of "canon" in TES: Most of ESO's "lore" is so broad and non-specific, it's pretty easy to ignore for players and developers alike. I have absolutely no doubt that BGS will do so if they feel it doesn't fit the game they want to make, as they have repeatedly done with their own lore. They pretty much reimagine TES every time they make a new game, I don't expect it to be any different with TES VI.

I also want to defend Todd Howard a bit. Judging from other interviews he has done over the years, he's a very big believer in keeping things unexplored, mysterious and obscure. Magic is almost by definition something unknowable and mysterious, and as such, should be kept away from the mundane, i.e. everyday life. So in his games, the arcane is something rare and outstanding.

Compare Skyrim's Blackreach with ESO's and you'll know what I mean.

IMO, that could have been accomplished in regards to Bretons in certain ways, for example, with a magical academy that we can see from a distance but can't enter. No plebs allowed. A bit like Red Mountain in Vvardenfell.

Mascen

@BlissfulDelusions

Eh it depends on the Ayleid ruins. Remember there were other smaller and less successful Ayleid enclaves before the Direnni, they were just the most successful, plus theres also the Alessian diaspora from Cyrodiil who probably occupied a place of nobility above the Bretons but below the Direnni. Also its fair to argue Direnni architecture would be highly similar to Ayleid architecture if not identical since they both stem from the Aldmer exodites of Summerset.

KingArthasMenethil

Mascen wrote: »

@BlissfulDelusions

Eh it depends on the Ayleid ruins. Remember there were other smaller and less successful Ayleid enclaves before the Direnni, they were just the most successful, plus theres also the Alessian diaspora from Cyrodiil who probably occupied a place of nobility above the Bretons but below the Direnni. Also its fair to argue Direnni architecture would be highly similar to Ayleid architecture if not identical since they both stem from the Aldmer exodites of Summerset.

They are different culture groups. There's similar and then there's looking like a province of the Ayleid Empire that base game High Rock is.
We've seen what ESO uses for Drienni architecture and it isn't Ayleid as it uses Summerset assets (the Direnni place on Summerset and during the intro) because there is no Direnni architecture at all.