Hodors Update - Are you aware

Lucidilusions · June 2022

Recent update to Hodors has added an ability which is on by default (can not be turned off)that gives raid leads the ability to prevent other group members using Hodors from using your abilities in order to stop damage. I find it pretty intrusive myself, especially without the ability to turn it off or any notification in game that allows you to opt into it. My goal is not to influence your opinion of the change but to simply make people aware who might not read the update notes.

Make up your mind, and do with what you will.

Baertram · June 2022

The day where such methods are needed clearly show me that some addons think they can fix every problem

I get the point about this, this problem exists since MMOs exist.
"Stop attacking the boss!!! He heals himself!" etc.

I'd rather start explanation of mechanics, tell ppl to be awake, do their homework, instead of adding more and more visual and other help by addons where everyone relies on. Because every help by addons will even increase the problem that "press 1,press 2,do not watch the surrounding or what was said before by the raid lead" happens, cuz: brain off, someone/something will handle that for me... IMHO.

It's clearly meant to be used at the raid start to prevent annoying spam of skills

Intrusive or not, you may disable the addon if you do not like that. And for the ones not being able to disable the addon as it is raid mandatory: the raid lead can use the feature or not, but should explain it to the others in advance. As explained above I do not think this will help in total, and is contra-productive. But the world changed, learning is not that important anymore, so why not, easy mode on.

robpr · June 2022

Baertram wrote: »

It's clearly meant to be used at the raid start to prevent annoying spam of skills

It's for first boss of DSR where overdpsing makes things difficult with the atros

perfiction · June 2022

robpr wrote: »

Baertram wrote: »

It's clearly meant to be used at the raid start to prevent annoying spam of skills

It's for first boss of DSR where overdpsing makes things difficult with the atros

But it's available everywhere, for every group leader. I can imagine crag pugs trolling each other using this.
I disabled it on my end, if you want to do it as well go to HodorReflexes/modules/share/main.lua and remove/comment lines 578-580:

if IsUnitGroupLeader(tag) and data >= 30 and data < 40 then
	M.ToggleBossDamage(data > 30 and data - 29 or 0)
end

Baertram · June 2022

Yeah, I know what it was designed for. But having ppl paying attention to the boss, the mechanics, and not just pressing keys and doing dmg raises would fix that too, and better.
Another story as I tried to describe above.

pupsas · June 2022

People who do not stop dps and do not listen to raid leaders tend not to stay in groups for long even IF they use hodor and have this joke of an option enabled. It is kinda hilarious in a mundane sort of way. I bet lots of DDs will love when their rotations are interrupted, or a nighblade/templar dies because they cant use jabs/swallow soul to heal.
I'm betting that this ''function'' is a prank that Hodor devs put out.

Lucidilusions · June 2022

pupsas wrote: »

IF they use hodor and have this joke of an option enabled.

Just to clarify, everyone has this option enabled if your running hodors. You do not have the ability to turn this option off without going into the code and editing it.

Baertram · June 2022

Imo this kind of things should be removed "fast" from ANY addon as this is something that technically could be caled an abuse or forced toggle.
Beside my personal dislike for such stuff I even fear that this could harm the addon community as exisitng API, which can be used for better things like that, could be locked down

We had that happen in the past.

A good advice what addons must not do:
https://wiki.esoui.com/How_to_get_your_AddOn_removed

85flyingbrick_ESO · June 2022

i was looking at the comment section on esoui and he actually responded that it doesn't violate TOS because you agree to use it by downloading the addon. what a crap legal take that is.

Jaimeh · June 2022

It's not just stopping damage, it's actually re-placing the DOTs so they won't keep ticking, and usually players do neither or are slow in doing them. I'm not a fan of having this mechanic available for all trials, and not just this DSR fight, because it can encourage troll shenanigans (and we know that when given the opportunity, some players will certainly troll), but on the other hand I also sympathize with raid leads who have to keep repeating themselves, and having to deal with wipes because DDs tunnel-vision, and aren't raid-aware.

Baertram · June 2022

but on the other hand I also sympathize with raid leads who have to keep repeating themselves, and having to deal with wipes because DDs tunnel-vision, and aren't raid-aware.

Well, I understand that. Have been raid lead (in other games) for years.
Repeating everything again and again sucks but is often necessary.

But features like this won't fix it, they will even make it worse. Each addon and thing that helps them to just press 1, 2, 1, 2 in the end will lower brain activity even more

making them watch videos on 2nd screen, or whatever.
My best raid runs were the ones were even the DDs knew what is happening when, what boss does what, and why.
We trained that before the raids, in theory, with videos and other stuff.

Today: Raid leads should not need to repeat themselves, there are tons of material out there which show what is to do. Provide it up ahead, let them study it, ask questions 2 days before raid, if they fail to answer correctly -> next DD is waiting already. They'll learn pretty quick, or leave the raid (shouldn't be a loss then).
Make them learn and be ready, like with all other stuff like food, skills etc.

But maybe that all changed and ppl dislike to do anything for a raid, for the team in advance.

kwinter · June 2022

So I am concern that it is even possible for one player to be able to affect how another player does damage and make me wonder if some players will figure out how to make this happen in place another then raids. I know this is an add-on that requires both to have right now, but still I can't help but wonder if someone will figure a cheat around this. I think ZOS needs to look into this before it has a chance to become something bigger. Also don't say it can't happen there are creative people out there who can figure this stuff out.

Baertram · June 2022

kwinter wrote: »

So I am concern that it is even possible for one player to be able to affect how another player does damage and make me wonder if some players will figure out how to make this happen in place another then raids. I know this is an add-on that requires both to have right now, but still I can't help but wonder if someone will figure a cheat around this. I think ZOS needs to look into this before it has a chance to become something bigger. Also don't say it can't happen there are creative people out there who can figure this stuff out.

There is no "cheat way around it", it depends on an API function that is given since years (MapPings) so do not fear anything here. Cheats can always happen and there also exist some, but not via addons, and ZOs already detects and bans them.

Why is everyone just starting to get that angsty without knowing the facts, and all of sudden there was started an avalanche...
So many fears, and especially written down, to start these avalanches

Relax or do not use addons, or at least FIRST inform yourself what was done, or ask what was technically done and what is technically possible.
And AFTER THAT start to think about it and fear (if necessary -> it isn't here) and write your concerns.

Addons could always change your game by whatever you'd not expect them to do (like easter eggs

).
This addon is not using any cheats not coming near there, it's just sending data to other addon users who are using the same addon.
So this is not even somethig that happens cross-addons.
ZOs prevents this for good reasons.

As this here is a workaround which was tolerated sine years it might be changed by ZOs.
Means:
The only real fear here should be if ZOs will react relaxed or lock down API functions which other addons would love to use for other means...because one addon now was "over the top somehow".... it's always a decision by ZOs.

Amottica · June 2022

I would suggest it should be off by default. With that, I can also see that some raid leaders may require it turned on. At least for players that have problems with paying attention. Granted, this is not needed for a skilled group of players.

VoM is a great example where DPS does not stop damage on Cursed One when they are channeling drain life on a party member. Every pug I have seen has killed one of their party members in this fight because of a lack of self-control or not bothering to learn the dungoen/ask questions if not familiar.

code65536 · June 2022

It crosses a line that should not have been crossed. Saying that the user agrees to it by downloading it is as specious as saying that a user agreed to have their computer be controlled remotely because they downloaded and installed malware.

Fortunately, it's possible to make an addon kill this so-called "feature" entirely...
https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info3409.html

daim · June 2022

The addon is not to blame. I think it's good he added the feature so the people here know that it's possible. It would be used in other silent ways if not in a popular addon.

Baertram · June 2022

Yes this single addon is to blaim as the API to share data between group members is known for years and used for many addons, not only combat or raid related. And it was never used like that before, with a clear understanding of "what addons must not do', until now.

Btw: How should this be used in other silent ways if you need to be grouped AND install the addon? As I wrote above already: Please stop insulting all addons and the technic if you do not know the technic and just got fears, inform yourself in advance, thank you.

code65536 · June 2022

daim wrote: »

The addon is not to blame. I think it's good he added the feature so the people here know that it's possible. It would be used in other silent ways if not in a popular addon.

That is absolutely absurd and ridiculous.

Addons have a lot of power. They can, for example, delete items from your inventory. That's not a bad thing, and there are legitimate uses: there are many people who have addons like that to automatically delete junk items that they loot.

Addons can also do things like monitor chat. That's not a bad thing, and people might want an addon that filters out some kinds of chat messages or flags things in chat messages that might interest them.

These are two things that an addon can do that's completely legitimate. But what if you combined them? Made an addon that, upon seeing something in chat, deleted everything in a player's inventory? Surely, a player would not opt to download such an addon. But what if they didn't know that the addon did such a thing? They downloaded the addon for another purpose, but hidden inside was this feature where the addon would delete the player inventory when it receives a command via game chat.

You know what else behaves like this? Malware. Modifying or deleting files is a perfectly legitimate thing for software to do. Receiving data from the Internet is also a perfectly legitimate thing for software to do. The difference between malware and legitimate software is that the malware does these things without the user's consent.

You can't say, "software shouldn't be allowed to modify files" (then how would a piece of software save a document?) or "software can't receive data from the Internet" (RIP web browsers). You can't restrict these things. The user just has to trust that legitimate software don't combine these things in some nefarious away, where it will go modify or delete data based on a command it receives over the Internet. And that's what I mean by the fundamental trust that must exist between addons and users. It's the same trust that you have that Firefox isn't going to take over your machine and that whatever it does is with your consent.

Slipping in a feature like this, enabled by default with no way to disable it, which enables another player to affect what you can do, in an addon that's supposed to about sharing ultimate numbers, most definitely does not meet any reasonable bar for consent. I should note that andy.s had the gall to argue that players "agree to this (by installing and using this addon)", which, taken to its logical conclusion, means that some cryptominer disguised as a game has the consent of the user, which is as reprehensible as it is laughable.

And just as software that violate this trust gets branded as malware, addons that violate this trust must be too. And frankly, what andy.s did here is absolutely appalling. At the minimum this "feature" must be removed from HR with a full apology. And I would not be opposed to some sort of punitive action by the admins at ESOUI on top of that. This sort of thing must never be condoned.

Baertram · June 2022

Beside that there was only 1 real malicious addon in all the years that I know off, sending gold to some other user. And this was an oversight of ZOs not restricting the mail attachments with an addon safe acknowledgment (What got fixed pretty fast).
So do not fear guys, we are not here to trick you (only with some April fools :-)).

I agree with code above except I would not ban Andy for this feature. Yes, it's not good and one should have thought about it more in advance AND talk to the dev community in advance as it clearly is something we would have said: no, please, no!
He should simply remove it quickly and learn from it.
But if he refuses to I'd be very disappointed.

Belegnole · June 2022

Should be banned and removed from the game. The ability to do so again should be removed a well.

Troodon80 · June 2022

I honestly think the feature is a good thing, though its uses are actually extremely minimal given that AoEs/DoTs continue ticking (damage can't realistically stop instantaneously, and hungry DDs can refresh their DoTs ahead of a DPS stop), but it should be opt-in. This shouldn't be something with no opt-out, but could be something a raid lead requires you to activate.

My only worry here is that ZOS will look at this and restrict the API to get rid of this 'feature' for sharing data which a lot of addons rely on(Hodor Reflexes, RdK, etc.), or blocking skill casts (impacting addons like Perfect Weave and Swiss Knife), in order to stop things like this potentially being abused.

FluffyBird · June 2022

Waiting for an addon where raid leader positions and presses skill buttons for the whole group themselves. If your party can't comprehend simple "stop damaging the boss", they need either better explanation or new brains, that level of hand-holding won't let them improve.

I see no problem when an addon adds new ways of interaction that are limited to the users of that addon. I'm concerned, though, that such thing can be added silently. If an addon uses such intrusive (even if allowed) functionality it should have some kind of well visible warning. Just my opinion, ofc.

Baertram · June 2022

Belegnole wrote: »

Should be banned and removed from the game. The ability to do so again should be removed a well.

This would also remove all kind of other companion, block stealing or interaction, block skills, dps or heal share, ultimate share and other addons (ropeplay maybe)... I don't care about and DPS or heal or ulti share addons at all, they were always something that would not be needed imho but are just used as they are allowed/possible. But some of the other addons are QOL improvements!

I hope ZOs thinks about it and will not do that "big purge" because of 1 failure of 1 addon, would make me and many devs and players REALLY sad

FluffyBird wrote: »

I see no problem when an addon adds new ways of interaction that are limited to the users of that addon. I'm concerned, though, that such thing can be added silently. If an addon uses such intrusive (even if allowed) functionality it should have some kind of well visible warning. Just my opinion, ofc.

It is visible at the changelog, one should always read that

It was not added silently, he described it and the purpose.

Adding visual indicators ingame for each new feature is kinda too much imo as you'd have a nice techno light show and banners everywhere. Some users think feature A is such one, others just think feature B is. So do we need to add a banner and ingame info for each new feature? It's a mess to maintain that.
Therefor we got the changelog and the addon description and you need, no you must read this please. Else it would be twice the work to create the texts AND in addition add some kind of visual info ingame as you login, take care of only showing this once (which is not that easy) and so on. To show these we would need some new library you need to install, LibChangelog or similar, as there is no easy way to create your own "new features" informationcontrol, this would need to be builded from the scratch for each addon again. You see wehere this leads to...

But there simply exist features that should not be added, which addons must not use. And this should be common sense, like code also explained above.

JanTanhide · June 2022

Thank you all for this information. Uninstalling the Addon now.

JanTanhide · June 2022

There is this for those that want to keep the Addon: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info3409-HodorReflexesShouldNotViolateUserTrust.html

Baertram · June 2022

Yes, and it was linked above already by the author

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7630096/#Comment_7630096

acastanza_ESO · June 2022

The author has now had all comments critical of this change deleted from the comments page and is pitching a hissy fit in the change log with a new "feature"

1.8.38
- Replaced the feature introduced in the previous update with a new one: you can now automatically report a player if they are doing more dps than you or ignoring raid leader's commands.

At this point, I think ESO UI needs to automatically hold this authors future updates for manual review. This kind of behavior is unacceptable, and if this was being done by any less ubiquitous of an addon, I'd say it should be a bannable offense.

virtus753 · June 2022

That new feature is also explicitly against ToS/CoC, even more indisputably than the first. I seriously hope it’s a bad joke.

code65536 · June 2022

virtus753 wrote: »

That new feature is also explicitly against ToS/CoC, even more indisputably than the first. I seriously hope it’s a bad joke.

It's just a joke. If you compare the .38 files with .36, they're identical. So the new .38 is just a full rollback of the changes made in .37.

virtus753 · June 2022

code65536 wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

That new feature is also explicitly against ToS/CoC, even more indisputably than the first. I seriously hope it’s a bad joke.

It's just a joke. If you run compare the .38 files with .36, they're identical. So the new .38 is just a full rollback of the changes made in .37.

Thank you! I’m in the middle of switching flights and didn’t have a computer to check. Appreciate the quick response.

acastanza_ESO · June 2022

Good. Glad it's just a "joke". That author needs a time out.