Tigor wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

Just an Idea : 💡

If some groups/players are better in organisation and structure than others, would it then not be wise to have a possibility to sign up for casual, balanced or hardcore campaigns? In the guild finder these options already excist. The discussion about proc sets could then be more uplifting and opens doors to balanced fights. I can't forsee many cons.

but how would you keep skilled players from queuing into the casual campaign?

That is one of the concerns I thought about. If players are on the wrong campaign then at least there would be an option to move to the other. Everything still with a free choice, and no forcing. Could be interesting to have this running for a while, just to see how the game evolves, if casual vs hardcore campaigns would excist. On the otherhand it is just an idea from me putting to much effort.

I agree we could have a casual and hardcore campaign provided the hardcore campaign provided significantly better rewards for playing in it to encourage players to elevate their gameplay.

Also a point of order, we are deviating from the point of the whole discussion.

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

People love procs because they need the free damage to kill, the free sustain to survive, and/or the free resource recovery to stay in the fight.

It's bomber meta right now because your average bomber wasn't good enough to bomb during no proc so now everyone and their mother has to bomb. And now you get the arguments that if you want to defeat bomb and ball groups you have to bomb too.

So by that argument everyone should be a bomber.

Lazy argument is lazy.

People simply enjoy being able to use more than 19 sets in a game with literally hundreds.

You're implying that people are running vastly different builds which, of course, isn't true.

Another lazy argument that's also false.

If you took a snapshot and instant gear census of a pop-locked Cyrodiil you would find people running TONS of different sets.

Some of those people have no idea what they are doing (e.g. PvE tourists) but between solo, small-scale, and group play, people are wearing all sorts of sets. A single ball group is likely using 25-30+ different sets (inclusive of monster sets, arena weapons, and Mythics) by themselves and different ball groups run different combinations of sets. An there's usually 3-6+ ball groups active in a pop-locked campaign at any given time.

Then you have different set configurations for 1vX'ing, ganking, bombing, brawling, scroll-running, non-group-comp small-scale, group-comp small-scale, etc.

Sure, sets like Balorgh dominate for damage builds and 1vX'ers are gravitating toward sets like Pariah but whatever siloed PvP bubble you live in does not happen to represent PvP build diversity as a whole.

So let's all agree to put this tired meme about the lack of PvP build diversity to bed once and for all.

Large section of the population are wearing VD and MA.

Those who have access to blackwood are running Sithis with a pen set and damage set.

Stamblades are mostly wearing Pen + NMA because dot builds aren't killing anyone due to the above mentioned bombers who can heal through dots OR brawlers wearing Sithis and can easily shrug it off.

Sorcs and Wolves wearing Engine Guardian.

I can keep going.

Are there outliers? Yes. But most people min max. They find out what performs best and use that, no different than no proc. The real difference between the updates is the bomber groups rampaging across the map. Most people are bombers and bomber groups can own the map unless you give up and run your own bomber group.

Every play style in Cyro right now was viable in no proc. The difference is you had to learn to run it without free damage, armor, and resources.

Most people do *not* min max. If they did, there wouldn't be "casuals" and threads like this in the first place.

Majority of Cyro is not casual PVE players. And even the ones that are still do the same thing.
Everyone looks online or asks guild mates for build advice which leads to a consolidation of sets, no matter how many are available.

Every proc build can be done in no proc. A magblade doesn't need VD to bomb or Caruulians to gank. But people are wearing them now because it's the easy way to get kills or they feel pressure to in order to compete.

To say otherwise is just silly.

As a raid leader I simply don't know what sets are good for pvp, anymore. The hugh amount of diferent sets nowadays and even more combinations to run with, makes it almost impossible for me to give help in what sets to use. Everyone in the group is using what he/she thinks is the best, but I don't have a clue what the best sets are.

What this game has different with other games is, the accessabilty of sets, easy to collect in pve, but after some tweaks good usable in pvp. To get the best usable build for pvp would take hours and hours of puzzling with a lot of different sets and combinations. Boring! I don't even know how to do it. The game is not providing me any tool.

Other players more skilled in puzzling the right build for whole groups will create the hard to kill ball groups. A clear outcome.

What could close the gap before only ball groups are succesful? I don't know, everything is changing quicker and quicker it seems. Focus has shifted from campaign tactics and lets fight, to hopefully the ball groups stay away and what will be the weather tomorrow.

More zergs? Less sets? In game set builder for everyone? AOE Timers? Ramping costs? Less or no procs? Something else?

Difficult nut to crack. For me Pvp has become a puzzle, with missing pieces.

Wraithseer_ESO wrote: »

Well, I know a simple way of nerfing ball groups without much impact on other players:

chain reaction siege

a ballista/cata/lancer that does regular damage + creates an explosion of high damage around every player hit, in a very small radius, 3-4m

Normal pug groups, smallscalers and spread out zergs can safely ignore it, while ball groups will suffer, even if slightly.

I do understand the intention, however, have you consider its unintended consequences?
Such a mechanic has been introduced before. For example, proximity detonation works in a similar fashion. It was meant to be used against balls of players but instead (as an unintended consequence) it was primarily to the benefit of ball groups and they continue to use it as one of their main damaging abilities to this day.

Another example is the Vicious Death set, which is more in line with what you propose because of its chain reaction mechanic. It was intended to be used against ball groups. However, the unintended consequence was that it was perfect for ball groups to use against any other group. As stated before, ball groups do a lot of overhealing and thus almost never die. As a consequence, the vicious death set doesn't kill ball groups at all. Instead, it is now the prime and butter of ball groups to use against any other less organized group.

DTStormfox wrote: »

Also a point of order, we are deviating from the point of the whole discussion.

What else would you like to accomplish from the discussion of the topic?

Tigor wrote: »

As a raid leader I simply don't know what sets are good for pvp, anymore. The hugh amount of diferent sets nowadays and even more combinations to run with, makes it almost impossible for me to give help in what sets to use. Everyone in the group is using what he/she thinks is the best, but I don't have a clue what the best sets are.

What this game has different with other games is, the accessabilty of sets, easy to collect in pve, but after some tweaks good usable in pvp. To get the best usable build for pvp would take hours and hours of puzzling with a lot of different sets and combinations. Boring! I don't even know how to do it. The game is not providing me any tool.

Other players more skilled in puzzling the right build for whole groups will create the hard to kill ball groups. A clear outcome.

What could close the gap before only ball groups are succesful? I don't know, everything is changing quicker and quicker it seems. Focus has shifted from campaign tactics and lets fight, to hopefully the ball groups stay away and what will be the weather tomorrow.

More zergs? Less sets? In game set builder for everyone? AOE Timers? Ramping costs? Less or no procs? Something else?

Difficult nut to crack. For me Pvp has become a puzzle, with missing pieces.

The game actually has many tools for testing and trying out various sets. There's PTS where you have access to every set for free, There's the character sheet and advanced stats, Addons for those playing on PC, Training dummies, Cross faction communication and no alliance locking on certain campaigns.

Then of course there are the outside of game tools, Videos, Discords, Twitch Streams. Community Sites, etc
The argument that because you personally don't understand or want to invest time into something there should be changes is a really poor one.
There should never be any changes to the game ever made on the assumption that players who put no effort in should achieve on-par results to those who do put the time and effort in.

You are free to play the way you wish to. Others who want to invest more time and thought into their gameplay are also free to do so.

Also as an aside, you asked me what rewards I would like to see - you can see the rough outline here (this is around 2-3y old at this point so scale them up to current content but you will get a rough idea): https://i.imgur.com/msLOrrA.png - From Dracast Episode 5.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The game actually has many tools for testing and trying out various sets. There's PTS where you have access to every set for free, There's the character sheet and advanced stats, Addons for those playing on PC, Training dummies, Cross faction communication and no alliance locking on certain campaigns.

Then of course there are the outside of game tools, Videos, Discords, Twitch Streams. Community Sites, etc
The argument that because you personally don't understand or want to invest time into something there should be changes is a really poor one.
There should never be any changes to the game ever made on the assumption that players who put no effort in should achieve on-par results to those who do put the time and effort in.

You are free to play the way you wish to. Others who want to invest more time and thought into their gameplay are also free to do so.

Also as an aside, you asked me what rewards I would like to see - you can see the rough outline here (this is around 2-3y old at this point so scale them up to current content but you will get a rough idea): https://i.imgur.com/msLOrrA.png - From Dracast Episode 5.

You are right. It is possible to put a lot of effort in the game, only not everyone has the same time to spend. At least I don't have. It would be like readinig all the books from the library for learning how to boil an egg. 🥚😄, not everyone would come with the same result. 🍳. I would eat eggs raw, the idea to have to read everything would already make me sick. 🤢.🤭

But if everyone would have one book, or lets call it a builder, the unexplainable (proc) advantages could be easier to find. Then fighting ball groups might even give the fun back, lets assume it will not lead to more unkillable groups.

And I will check your wished rewards. What is that site linked to?

Tigor wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The game actually has many tools for testing and trying out various sets. There's PTS where you have access to every set for free, There's the character sheet and advanced stats, Addons for those playing on PC, Training dummies, Cross faction communication and no alliance locking on certain campaigns.

Then of course there are the outside of game tools, Videos, Discords, Twitch Streams. Community Sites, etc
The argument that because you personally don't understand or want to invest time into something there should be changes is a really poor one.
There should never be any changes to the game ever made on the assumption that players who put no effort in should achieve on-par results to those who do put the time and effort in.

You are free to play the way you wish to. Others who want to invest more time and thought into their gameplay are also free to do so.

Also as an aside, you asked me what rewards I would like to see - you can see the rough outline here (this is around 2-3y old at this point so scale them up to current content but you will get a rough idea): https://i.imgur.com/msLOrrA.png - From Dracast Episode 5.

You are right. It is possible to put a lot of effort in the game, only not everyone has the same time to spend. At least I don't have. It would be like readinig all the books from the library for learning how to boil an egg. 🥚😄, not everyone would come with the same result. 🍳. I would eat eggs raw, the idea to have to read everything would already make me sick. 🤢.🤭

But if everyone would have one book, or lets call it a builder, the unexplainable (proc) advantages could be easier to find. Then fighting ball groups might even give the fun back, lets assume it will not lead to more unkillable groups.

And I will check your wished rewards. What is that site linked to?

To further your analogy, I would simply read a book on basic cooking or ask an expert if I really wasn't able to find a solution and as a last resource I would try different methods myself to see which worked best.

Also its imgur (image hosting site) you can also just checkout the Youtube playlist in my signature.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

To further your analogy, I would simply read a book on basic cooking or ask an expert if I really wasn't able to find a solution and as a last resource I would try different methods myself to see which worked best.

Also its imgur (image hosting site) you can also just checkout the Youtube playlist in my signature.

I watched the episode 5 by clicking directly "Videos" in your footer. Back to 2018 you guys gave an impression of how a complete improvement of campaign fighting would look like. It is good to keep as a reference to see at what stage the game now is. If I can remember, the only thing that came true was receiving ticks from defended keeps while not in the area. The rest was about a more competitive game play, that was very interesting to see. What I missed was how to build up a perfect group. Any reason not to present?

At that stage you talked already about better performance. In the meantime the game introduced a lot of new proc-sets and there was something done to reduce the size of the game by GB's, to get it better. Reducing the size of phone books to send up and down the server should do it, something like that. Necromancer, juwelry crafting has been introduced, revamped CP system was set up, excavation and some more chapters/DLC's were added. So a lot of extra material to do. Resulting in a bigger phonebook, and everything starting from the beginning again.

Ballgroups have been around from the start of ESO. I remember the time the first healing trains showed up. I was just a volunteer and I joined D.Elite in 2014, started leading groups. In the beginning there were not so many ball groups, only Banana squad and Exile I remember, very organised and strong, as if belonging to an other league already. In the end we gathered more players and more leaders, and we succeeded to pacify our keeps. Summarised we were playing in 24 sized groups but not as organised, just tactical. The reason comes from the larger pool of players in the guild. You on the otherhand belong to a small community of more AP driven players. In that video it looked as if you care about the campaign and want to give handles to improve it, but in reality the ball group play style is experienced as malignant. So I am not convinced of the true meaning of that video yet.

The reason of this thread was that the activation of the proc sets have more advantages to ball groups then solo players or less organised groups. The lag and other performance issue's like skills not working, staying in combat for minutes, slow walking, and revolving doors are now recognisable to every casual player. Especially the newest batch of players with a less thick skin are not amused at MYM. The ball groups take server priority and we casuals are not capable it do anything against it. Something has to change.

Thraben wrote: »

Here a shorter solution:


1) Introduce the rule that everyone in the group equips a group healing skill and the most powerful ranged skill available (which is Inevitable Detonation when magicka, and Heavy-Attack-Silver Shards when Stamina).

2) Introduce the rule that everyone wears Harmony as jewelry trait if possible.

3) Personally lead with a Necromancer. You can basically carry the whole group without any real group composition (when they wear Harmony) by making sure that Wall of Frost, Purge (or use the Curse- Eater set), Speed Buff, Grave Yard, Caltrops, and Mystic Orbs are used by yourself. Doesn't matter if Magicka or Stamina, and you don't need reg either, because you can use the skill Balance.


-> Now you are able to face anything except Roleplay Circle if you pick the right combat strategy for the situation, which is typically skirmishing when facing a ballgroup until they start making mistakes.

@Thraben. You are providing help. Interesting solutions, worth to give a try and implementable to players. No game changes needed. Hopefully lag is not a disturbance. One note: Why not usable against Roleplay Circle?

Tigor wrote: »

@Thraben. You are providing help. Interesting solutions, worth to give a try and implementable to players. No game changes needed. Hopefully lag is not a disturbance. One note: Why not usable against Roleplay Circle?

You cannot do everything without going "progress". You will always have this one bad player who thinks he is great in melee but who does nothing but to steal heals that you would need for more important group members. You will always have that one guy who kills you all by triggering VD. That's nothing you can change in a casual group. But you can succeed far more often than people realise. There is no unbridgable skill gap on Ravenwatch between most semi-casual and progress groups.

DTStormfox wrote: »

Wraithseer_ESO wrote: »

Well, I know a simple way of nerfing ball groups without much impact on other players:

chain reaction siege

a ballista/cata/lancer that does regular damage + creates an explosion of high damage around every player hit, in a very small radius, 3-4m

Normal pug groups, smallscalers and spread out zergs can safely ignore it, while ball groups will suffer, even if slightly.

I do understand the intention, however, have you consider its unintended consequences?
Such a mechanic has been introduced before. For example, proximity detonation works in a similar fashion. It was meant to be used against balls of players but instead (as an unintended consequence) it was primarily to the benefit of ball groups and they continue to use it as one of their main damaging abilities to this day.

Another example is the Vicious Death set, which is more in line with what you propose because of its chain reaction mechanic. It was intended to be used against ball groups. However, the unintended consequence was that it was perfect for ball groups to use against any other group. As stated before, ball groups do a lot of overhealing and thus almost never die. As a consequence, the vicious death set doesn't kill ball groups at all. Instead, it is now the prime and butter of ball groups to use against any other less organized group.

What was the popular belief is that both proxy det and VD was needed to stop the rampant stacking of players. I do not recall the ball groups being primarily targeted when they were introduced. There were some extremely shady big zergs that would lag the server by spamming healing springs. Remember the raid size was 24. Some guilds could manouver 3 raids. Think the frustration that was boiling over such big groups taking keeps.