Thank you for ruining pvp fun with proc sets, to the benefit of ball groups

DTStormfox

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A faction-stack is the default state of casual players when they enter Cyrodiil. Why? Because it's in their nature.

False assumption. Not all casuals participate in faction stacks or form faction stacks. Faction stacks are also a result of ball groups. Allow me to elaborate on the latter point. In their behaviour, ball groups bait players towards certain points on the map. For example, by taking a scroll or a keep/fort/castle and using it as bait. Players respond to that bait, hardcore and casual players alike. As a result, the only action that takes place is centred around the ball group because the ball group requires a faction stack or a better ball group to be killed. Since most players are not in ball groups, and smaller groups and randoms (those without a group) accumulate to kill the ball group to take back an objective, a faction stack emerges.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Run around as a solo casual and you're bound to get ganked. Run around in a small casual group and you can't accomplish anything because other small groups or even NPCs will wipe you.

That is again a false assumption. There are plenty of solo casuals and small group casuals who do just fine in Cyrodiil. Until they meet a ball group. Then they literally stand no chance.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Casuals are, by definition, less skilled in PvP than hardcore players.

Unless you can statistically support this claim, I say this claim does not apply.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Due to this fact, they require overwhelming numbers to accomplish tasks when pitted against more skilled players. And, check it out, there's nothing actually wrong with that.

You assume that ball group players are by definition more skilled. My antithesis is that ball group players are being carried a lot more by proc sets than casual players. As such, they are not by definition better than casual players because they are "more skilled" but instead they are better because they can combine proc sets that make them immune to (nearly) every counter-play.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

If I rounded up four random friends to play 5v1 against Kawhi Leonard in basketball, he would still completely destroy us because he is incalculably better at the game than we are, even greatly outnumbered. So what should our response to that loss be? Come up with ways to rig the rules against Kawhi so that we could continue to be mediocre but still possibly win? Or maybe we should try practicing more and improving our own teamwork. The latter is obviously the better idea... for a multitude of reasons.

This illustration falsely depicts my point. Your illustration suggests I am advocating for an equal outcome. I am not suggesting that we need equality of outcome by rigging the rules for ball groups. I am suggesting creating an even playing field with equal opportunities. Proc sets create an uneven playing field. Ball groups benefit much more from proc sets than any casual group or casual player can achieve. They already have an advantage by simply wearing the right combination of proc sets, regardless of their skill to play the game.

So, what happens is that Kawhi Leonard gets completely destroyed in a game of basketball against you and your friend because you can combine magical clothing that gives you a synergetic advantage over Kawhi Leonard.
Per exemplary: Kawhi Leonard has to choose for a shirt that either gives him and his teammates (recall that he plays alone) more throwing distance, or better accuracy, or more stamina. You and your friends can benefit from all the bonuses that are shared with the group by each person wearing another shirt, creating a synergetic advantage over Kawhi Leonard, regardless of the skill difference.

I do not argue that proc sets need to be nerfed to the ground or that ball groups need to be nerfed to the ground to achieve an equal outcome. I argue that there should be a mechanism that makes sure that the distance in comparative advantage is reduced.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

So no, players should seek to elevate themselves rather than tearing others down. The best groups will always be the best groups no matter what the rules are.

I agree that players need to elevate themselves. Hence I argue for the change or removal of proc sets in PvP arenas. Proc sets do not elevate anyone. Proc sets are not an additive for a player's skill. Instead, proc sets are a substitute for a player's skill.

DTStormfox

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's the nature of the beast. Anything that grants players power, whether it's gear or abilities or CP, is going to favor organized groups because that's the whole point of organization: to optimize things, remove redundancies, cover weaknesses, etc.
So yes, organized groups do benefit more with proc (or any) sets, though I think you severely underestimate how much power a good theorycrafter can squeeze out of the sets available in the game. In truth it's not just the organized ball groups, but those experienced players who can optimize and min-max builds that benefit the most.

The problem isn't that organized groups benefit from proc sets per se but that they benefit way more from proc sets than casuals. I don't blame them for combining sets to optimize their play. I argue that proc sets carry ball groups to such an extent that they are practically immune to every counterplay. This basically involves an uneven playing ground, unequal opportunity. I would like to point you towards my original post to illustrate that point.

Joy_Division wrote: »

So what's the alternative? Go back to being allowed to wear 19 sets and thereby deleting the sets, gear, mats, time, money, etc., that we invested in acquiring everything else and trivializing theorycrafting to ensure casual groups can compete better? No thanks. The reason for the competitive disparity is not that these casual groups are playing at a mechanical disadvantage, it's that they are just that, casual. I thus see no need for ZOS to hold their hands any more than the previous dozen of so (failed) attempts to raise the so-called floor / lower the proverbial ceiling. If a casual player or groups wishes to be more competitive, it's on them and it's perfectly possible for them to attain that goal by just getting better.

You make two points: sunk costs and the "get good"-argument.

On the former. I rather have fun in the game at the expense of some invested time and money. Than retaining the invested time and money at the expense of fun.

On the latter. The point is: If a ball group is practically immune to every counterplay because of the combination of proc sets, "getting gud" is completely irrelevant.

AmoralOne

Crispen_Longbow wrote: »

Now to the proc sets argument. It only takes a couple of bombers, specked with the right proc sets, to take down any group. THERE ISN'T A SINGLE GROUP that can't be taken down by a few well placed bombers. If you are sick of being farmed by ball groups. Stop being casuals and build a few bomber builds. Some groups take more bombers then others but all of them can be taken down.

Not enough people understand what you're saying - My group can go almost all night without wiping, but once bombers catch wind we are around, best believe at some point we are getting wiped - its just how that works.

Casul

Make siege damage work like prox det.

DTStormfox

BuildMan wrote: »

Make siege damage work like prox det.

You mean: The damage increases as more players are in the area of effect?
Or do you mean: The damage hits instantly causing a major peak in damage?

xylena_lazarow

DTStormfox wrote: »

You mean: The damage increases as more players are in the area of effect? Or do you mean: The damage hits instantly causing a major peak in damage?

I vote both, even Coldfire DoT siege is pathetic against a group prepared for it.

Marcus_Aurelius

One purge should no be able to remove DoTs from 3 different coldfire.

Seeing ball groups showered in oil and hit by multiple coldfire taking no damage shows how broken are the mechanics exploited by ball groups.

Sandman929

Crispen_Longbow wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

highly organized ball groups have a HUGE advantage over casual players.

L_Nici wrote: »

You just speak the truth and literally everyone knows it

Fixed your quotes for you guys.

Yep, highly organized groups have advantages over casual players. It doesn't matter what zos does that will always be the case.

Now to the proc sets argument. It only takes a couple of bombers, specked with the right proc sets, to take down any group. THERE ISN'T A SINGLE GROUP that can't be taken down by a few well placed bombers. If you are sick of being farmed by ball groups. Stop being casuals and build a few bomber builds. Some groups take more bombers then others but all of them can be taken down.

So much this, except for the "casuals" part. Just a few like-minded ball group hating folks can be absolute thorns in the side of an organized group with a few strong bombers.
Xbox NA is filling quickly with bombers every night and soon I expect that all players on all factions will be magblades. They are brutal this patch.

AmoralOne

Sandman929 wrote: »

Xbox NA is filling quickly with bombers every night and soon I expect that all players on all factions will be magblades. They are brutal this patch.

This is the ugly truth, you cant go anywhere on Xbox NA without finding 3+ bombers in stealth waiting around lol Im running around with Blinding Flare during sieges out of fear of a hidden bomb group

Sandman929

DTAmoral wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Xbox NA is filling quickly with bombers every night and soon I expect that all players on all factions will be magblades. They are brutal this patch.

This is the ugly truth, you cant go anywhere on Xbox NA without finding 3+ bombers in stealth waiting around lol Im running around with Blinding Flare during sieges out of fear of a hidden bomb group

Group comp should just be 12 bombers.

AmoralOne

Sandman929 wrote: »

DTAmoral wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Xbox NA is filling quickly with bombers every night and soon I expect that all players on all factions will be magblades. They are brutal this patch.

This is the ugly truth, you cant go anywhere on Xbox NA without finding 3+ bombers in stealth waiting around lol Im running around with Blinding Flare during sieges out of fear of a hidden bomb group

Group comp should just be 12 bombers.

11 bombers - 1 necro tank to pull everyone in

what a world lmao

Joy_Division

DTStormfox wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's the nature of the beast. Anything that grants players power, whether it's gear or abilities or CP, is going to favor organized groups because that's the whole point of organization: to optimize things, remove redundancies, cover weaknesses, etc.
So yes, organized groups do benefit more with proc (or any) sets, though I think you severely underestimate how much power a good theorycrafter can squeeze out of the sets available in the game. In truth it's not just the organized ball groups, but those experienced players who can optimize and min-max builds that benefit the most.

The problem isn't that organized groups benefit from proc sets per se but that they benefit way more from proc sets than casuals. I don't blame them for combining sets to optimize their play. I argue that proc sets carry ball groups to such an extent that they are practically immune to every counterplay. This basically involves an uneven playing ground, unequal opportunity. I would like to point you towards my original post to illustrate that point.

You argue in vague terms and use hyperbole instead of any examples that show of what you speak. I run in an organized group and I can assure you I do not have infinite sustain. I can also assure you I am not immune to damage or debuffs. It is true that I have support players that help mitigate this, but this is primarily done by them using abilities rather than proc sets. The majority of the spike damage comes from synchronizing ultimates, burst skills like proximity detonation, and harmony synergies, all of which are independent of proc sets. The one set that does have a decisive impact here is vicious death. But that is a singular set and a specific instance, not "proc sets."

"Ball groups" and "proc sets" have became a sort of phantom or Bogeyman that are cited for most of the game's problems and are often the target of frustrated players. You do know that in 2014 before ZOS had proc sets people on these forums were complaining about the very same things you are asserting now: no counterplay, they are immune to damage, imbalanced playing field, etc? I can give you a dozen studies that prove human memory is utterly unreliable and not to be trusted, especially when it comes to facts. Organized groups play on a different level not because of proc sets but because they are organized. If you seek to level the playing field so to speak, you ought to better understand exactly what makes an organized group functions as effectively as it does. Because from what you write and argue, you don't. You're just voicing frustrations. And neither do the developers, which is why for every patch of this game, organized groups seem so oppressively regardless of the means and measures the devs seek to "lower the ceiling."

So instead or ruining the game and theorycrafting by forcing us to wear 19 sets just so casual players who are not motivated to either play better, adopt their own tactics, or optimize their builds can be more competitive, how about being specific and actually try to identify culprits and problematic gear? You know what ZOs should have done 6 months ago instead of banning 90% of our gear?

Regarding group play, there are two proc sets in the game that I do think provide way too much action economy, Vicious Death and Earthgore. Vicious Death is a bit trickier as it probably the only means a solitary player can decisively impact an opposing group. This is something else you argument does not acknowledge, that proc sets can be used by outnumbered and disadvantage players against ball groups. Even the supposedly immune to damage "ball group" players fear this set and adjust their tactics because of it. So removing it is going to create as many problems as doing so attempts to solve.

Earthgore is more straightforward. It is, in my opinion, a poorly designed set that does too much to excuse mistakes and even worse has tremendous power: it remove ultimates for one. Neither of which should have ever left the design table and most certainly should not have been combined into one set. It is in short, a crutch. From the day it was introduced, it has always been a staple and equipped by multiple members of organized groups. When there are dozens and dozens of monster sets this particular one is still worn by so many just shows how strong it is.

AuraNebula

Crispen_Longbow wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

highly organized ball groups have a HUGE advantage over casual players.

L_Nici wrote: »

You just speak the truth and literally everyone knows it

Fixed your quotes for you guys.

Yep, highly organized groups have advantages over casual players. It doesn't matter what zos does that will always be the case.

Now to the proc sets argument. It only takes a couple of bombers, specked with the right proc sets, to take down any group. THERE ISN'T A SINGLE GROUP that can't be taken down by a few well placed bombers. If you are sick of being farmed by ball groups. Stop being casuals and build a few bomber builds. Some groups take more bombers then others but all of them can be taken down.

I agree. With the buff to solo bombers, ballgroups aren't farming keeps for 1+ hours.

DTStormfox

Joy_Division wrote: »

You argue in vague terms and use hyperbole instead of any examples that show of what you speak.

The fact that you find my terminology vague doesn't prove that I am wrong about what I speak of. Furthermore, as you also state that:

Joy_Division wrote: »

I can give you a dozen studies that prove human memory is utterly unreliable and not to be trusted, especially when it comes to facts.

What is the point of giving examples if I rely on human memory to give examples?

Joy_Division wrote: »

I run in an organized group and I can assure you I do not have infinite sustain. I can also assure you I am not immune to damage or debuffs. It is true that I have support players that help mitigate this, but this is primarily done by them using abilities rather than proc sets. The majority of the spike damage comes from synchronizing ultimates, burst skills like proximity detonation, and harmony synergies, all of which are independent of proc sets. The one set that does have a decisive impact here is vicious death. But that is a singular set and a specific instance, not "proc sets."

Interesting line of reasoning. You claim: "I do not have infinite sustain", yet you also say: "It is true that I have support players that help mitigate this." You are contradicting your own claim with your own arguments, and you actually provide anecdotal evidence in favour of the point I am making. Also, the fact that you run organized groups is irrelevant to the discussion (it is in fact an argument from authority).

Joy_Division wrote: »

"Ball groups" and "proc sets" have became a sort of phantom or Bogeyman that are cited for most of the game's problems and are often the target of frustrated players.

This is just an attempt to frame my arguments as a bogeyman to delegitimize my concerns and arguments. Nice try, bad play.

Joy_Division wrote: »

You do know that in 2014 before ZOS had proc sets people on these forums were complaining about the very same things you are asserting now: no counterplay, they are immune to damage, imbalanced playing field, etc?

The situation in and game of 2014 is incomparable with today.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Organized groups play on a different level not because of proc sets but because they are organized. If you seek to level the playing field so to speak, you ought to better understand exactly what makes an organized group functions as effectively as it does.

This is victim-blaming and nothing more than a "get good" type of argument. It doesn't address the concerns I raise. It is just another attempt to delegitimize my concerns and arguments.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Because from what you write and argue, you don't. You're just voicing frustrations. And neither do the developers, which is why for every patch of this game, organized groups seem so oppressively regardless of the means and measures the devs seek to "lower the ceiling."

Projection. I am not frustrated at all.

Joy_Division wrote: »

So instead or ruining the game and theorycrafting by forcing us to wear 19 sets just so casual players who are not motivated to either play better, adopt their own tactics, or optimize their builds can be more competitive, how about being specific and actually try to identify culprits and problematic gear? You know what ZOs should have done 6 months ago instead of banning 90% of our gear?

I spend time on theory crafting and on how to optimize groups. So, that makes your entire argument invalid. Also, I know from theory crafting and group optimization that proc sets carry ball groups too much. That is the whole point of discussion. I don't want to lower the ceiling or raise the floor. I want proc sets to have less efficacy in groups for PvP. Such that skill matters more than "wearing best in slot" gear.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Regarding group play, there are two proc sets in the game that I do think provide way too much action economy, Vicious Death and Earthgore. Vicious Death is a bit trickier as it probably the only means a solitary player can decisively impact an opposing group. This is something else you argument does not acknowledge, that proc sets can be used by outnumbered and disadvantage players against ball groups. Even the supposedly immune to damage "ball group" players fear this set and adjust their tactics because of it. So removing it is going to create as many problems as doing so attempts to solve.

For vicious death to be a counter to ball groups, you first need to kill somebody in the ball group. As I already pointed out: ball groups overheal themselves to such an extent that they are practically immune to (almost all) damage. As such, vicious death will not proc on them, hence it is not a counter. Instead, ball groups can make full use of them because they can peak their damage from abilities on casual groups and create a chain effect of vicious deaths.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Earthgore is more straightforward. It is, in my opinion, a poorly designed set that does too much to excuse mistakes and even worse has tremendous power: it remove ultimates for one. Neither of which should have ever left the design table and most certainly should not have been combined into one set. It is in short, a crutch. From the day it was introduced, it has always been a staple and equipped by multiple members of organized groups. When there are dozens and dozens of monster sets this particular one is still worn by so many just shows how strong it is.[/quote[

We agree on something then. Earthgore should not have been added to the game.

heng14rwb17_ESO

BALL GRPS IS NO MATCH FOR BOMBERS !

DTStormfox

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

BALL GRPS IS NO MATCH FOR BOMBERS !

OKAY GOOD TO KNOW BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO SHOUT IT!!!

Tommy_The_Gun

Agree.

Do you know what is the biggest enemy of "balance" in any multiplayer pvp game (especially mmos) ?

It is Multiplicity.

If you have one thing (like skill or set proc etc), then well, it is all fine.

But what if you multiply it by 12?

Suddenly (on an average build, since sets scale now) Almalexia's Mercy 3K over 3 seconds heal proc for all people within 7 meters becomes 36K. That is 12K health per second (equivalent of 24K health recovery for everyone in a group), if all players in a group have this set.

24K health recovery...

Is Almalexia's Mercy set balanced ? Yes, it is. No one ever said it is OP. But is "group enviroment" balanced ? Definitely not. Ball group behaviour reminds me of something I have seen happening in eso long time ago - multi account cheat (Players were using remote control on PC, so one keyboard & mice was controlling 3 - 4 laptops / pcs). In game it was visible as 3 - 4 players stacked in one place, moving the same way, using same skills in the same time etc. It is illegal, and yet the description sounds familiar, right ? Stacking, using same skills at the same time etc...

Anyway, we all know that ball groups are destroying pvp experience for pretty much everyone else. It is not a mystery. But I am not blaming them. They are just playing using "Most Effective Tactics Available". It is ZOS who made it possible and has done nothing to fix it.

If you would ask me, then I would say that the only way to fix Ball groups is to give all skills & sets in pvp a Pale Order treatment. That is it.

I am gonna leave it here. Peace.

Abyssmol

Soul tether - 15,840 damage to a character with 3 heavy, 3 light and 1 medium. ZOS you broke your game!

Joy_Division

Well I can see this is going nowhere. I'm not wasting time with people with thinks I have infinite sustain (when ESO logs show a very different story - 253 heavy attacks made in just a two hour period, for example), that Viscous Death is incapable of killing players in an organized group, and someone who argues stating that the fact that I run in organized groups is irrelevant and then turns around claiming that because they theorycraft on how to optimize groups, their arguments are to be trusted.

Sandman929

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Agree.

Do you know what is the biggest enemy of "balance" in any multiplayer pvp game (especially mmos) ?

It is Multiplicity.

If you have one thing (like skill or set proc etc), then well, it is all fine.

But what if you multiply it by 12?

Suddenly (on an average build, since sets scale now) Almalexia's Mercy 3K over 3 seconds heal proc for all people within 7 meters becomes 36K. That is 12K health per second (equivalent of 24K health recovery for everyone in a group), if all players in a group have this set.

24K health recovery...

Is Almalexia's Mercy set balanced ? Yes, it is. No one ever said it is OP. But is "group enviroment" balanced ? Definitely not. Ball group behaviour reminds me of something I have seen happening in eso long time ago - multi account cheat (Players were using remote control on PC, so one keyboard & mice was controlling 3 - 4 laptops / pcs). In game it was visible as 3 - 4 players stacked in one place, moving the same way, using same skills in the same time etc. It is illegal, and yet the description sounds familiar, right ? Stacking, using same skills at the same time etc...

Anyway, we all know that ball groups are destroying pvp experience for pretty much everyone else. It is not a mystery. But I am not blaming them. They are just playing using "Most Effective Tactics Available". It is ZOS who made it possible and has done nothing to fix it.

If you would ask me, then I would say that the only way to fix Ball groups is to give all skills & sets in pvp a Pale Order treatment. That is it.

I am gonna leave it here. Peace.

Last I checked on console Almalexia didn't stack, is that not true?

Amottica

VaranisArano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I have only been around for a few months but I keep seeing threads talking about proc sets and ball groups as they are the blame for seemingly everything.

Why is this the case?

That's a long and complicated answer.

Cyrodiil was designed for large scale combat between groups of 8 to 24 players, and so when you take PVP guilds who work and move together using voice comms and who build as a unit, those organized raids are extremely powerful and able to defeat much more than their numbers in less organized powers.

The superior organization and cooperation of those PVP guilds allows them to use proc sets that less organized or smaller groups can't use effectively. Consider that some proc sets required group mates to be within a certain radius. PUGs rarely stick that close together, while small scale fighters prefer to be able to fight as individuals. It's really only the organized guilds who systematically build for specialized roles and wear sets that buff, heal, and output extra damage as a group and combine that with focused fire, constant cross healing, and ulti dumps. That makes them very hard to kill and dangerous in a farming situation.

Now, in the past before all the Cyrodiil testing, ZOS called out the organized guilds for creating a situation where groups where able to have infinite sustain and healing, and thus were able to spam AOEs in a way ZOS said the server struggles with. Anecdotally, this is supported by the impressions of some players. So there was a logical reason for the criticisms.

The problem with that is that since then ZOS has tested a number of factors to try to prevent guilds from being able to do that, including AOE cooldowns, no cross-healing, and no proc sets,, and did not find any factor that substantially increased performance. They did drop the group size to 12, but at that time, they said it wasn't going to improve Cyrodiil performance. The result is that ZOS killed a lot of the larger PUG guilds, while many ball group style PVP guilds who already ran about 12 people carried on unscathed.


So where we're at is that:
A. Some players don't like ball groups and feel they are to blame for the bad performance (which ZOS has never proven nor properly addressed if they are) or feel ball groups create very un-fun gameplay (to each their own).

B. Some players really hate proc sets, mostly for competitive reasons, or because they feel like ball groups use proc sets more efficiently than anyone else (which they do, but only because ball groups use almost everything more efficiently than any smaller or less organized group.)

Thank you for this history. Yes, it would make sense that a group of players with good leadership and communication would be stronger than disorganized groups or pugs and I can see that those others would be upset about that.

As for the proc sets, it would seem, and I would hazard a guess, that Zenimax works to balance them so they do not offer an advantage over using solid non-proc sets. Isn't that what they tried to do with this last update?

DTStormfox

Joy_Division wrote: »

Well I can see this is going nowhere. I'm not wasting time with people with thinks I have infinite sustain (when ESO logs show a very different story - 253 heavy attacks made in just a two hour period, for example), that Viscous Death is incapable of killing players in an organized group, and someone who argues stating that the fact that I run in organized groups is irrelevant and then turns around claiming that because they theorycraft on how to optimize groups, their arguments are to be trusted.

The longest strawman I have ever read.

DTStormfox

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Agree.

Do you know what is the biggest enemy of "balance" in any multiplayer pvp game (especially mmos) ?

It is Multiplicity.

If you have one thing (like skill or set proc etc), then well, it is all fine.

But what if you multiply it by 12?

Suddenly (on an average build, since sets scale now) Almalexia's Mercy 3K over 3 seconds heal proc for all people within 7 meters becomes 36K. That is 12K health per second (equivalent of 24K health recovery for everyone in a group), if all players in a group have this set.

24K health recovery...

Is Almalexia's Mercy set balanced ? Yes, it is. No one ever said it is OP. But is "group enviroment" balanced ? Definitely not. Ball group behaviour reminds me of something I have seen happening in eso long time ago - multi account cheat (Players were using remote control on PC, so one keyboard & mice was controlling 3 - 4 laptops / pcs). In game it was visible as 3 - 4 players stacked in one place, moving the same way, using same skills in the same time etc. It is illegal, and yet the description sounds familiar, right ? Stacking, using same skills at the same time etc...

Anyway, we all know that ball groups are destroying pvp experience for pretty much everyone else. It is not a mystery. But I am not blaming them. They are just playing using "Most Effective Tactics Available". It is ZOS who made it possible and has done nothing to fix it.

If you would ask me, then I would say that the only way to fix Ball groups is to give all skills & sets in pvp a Pale Order treatment. That is it.

I am gonna leave it here. Peace.

Thank you for adding this to the discussion. Indeed. The sets may be balanced for individuals but when multiple sets stack (they don't have to be the same sets), they can become unbalanced. This is especially true for group play.

doesurmindglow

As a ball group organizer, I remember distinctly warning about this excessively on the PTS forums.

I was usually countered by "small scalers" and "casuals" that seemed to believe, for some unknown and incomprehensible reason, ball groups wouldn't have access to the same sets as them in their comps, and as result, lots of free damage would be a good thing for them compared to larger, more organized groups.

Surprise, surprise: proc sets with the scaling regime currently in place has given ball groups a huge advantage as within a week they've pretty much all outfitted their comp with all of the strongest proc sets and people are already complaining. Ball group play is far less challenging than it was a couple weeks ago; pugs are useless against them unless in overwhelming numbers, and the only realistic counterplay this patch offers is more powerful bombers, which most of us have mostly already adapted to and learned to defeat.

I appreciate a tougher challenge in PVP. I hope something is done to rebalance such that smaller groups and pugs can be effective against highly organized raids, especially when either comes to the field with a high level of player skill and experience. I agree that there should be an advantage to organized group play, for sure, but all the free damage and healing feels a bit overtuned currently, especially compared to The 19 Sets.

In the meantime I guess I hope more groups and guilds do get organized, as it'd be nice to see a wider variety of competitive raid leaders compared to the mere handful we seem to have in play right now.

ResidentContrarian

DTAmoral wrote: »

Crispen_Longbow wrote: »

Now to the proc sets argument. It only takes a couple of bombers, specked with the right proc sets, to take down any group. THERE ISN'T A SINGLE GROUP that can't be taken down by a few well placed bombers. If you are sick of being farmed by ball groups. Stop being casuals and build a few bomber builds. Some groups take more bombers then others but all of them can be taken down.

Not enough people understand what you're saying - My group can go almost all night without wiping, but once bombers catch wind we are around, best believe at some point we are getting wiped - its just how that works.

Even though you can just throw caltops around and/or use arrow barrage or another AoE and no bomber can come close without being revealed?

Even though if your group is built for speed, no bomber can ever catch up to all of you?

Even though if you are in a semi-loose formation (or group in 6: better for healing anyway), no bomber can wipe your group?

You don't have to pretend that bombers are a real threat to a ball group...

DjinnAeternam

DTStormfox wrote: »

In my opinion, PvP fun has been completely ruined by facilitating ball groups with unlimited resource sustain, complete immunity to all snares and roots, and giving them a huge LAG advantage.

Proc sets need to be removed from PvP. PERIOD. Proc sets give highly organized ball groups a HUGE advantage over casual players.

1. Proc sets allow highly organized ball groups to have unlimited resource sustain, without having to sacrifice Max stats or Damage stats.
2. Proc sets allow highly organized ball groups to time proc sets to proc all at the same time. Causing major damage spikes that casual players cannot achieve and not recover (heal) from.
3. Proc sets allow highly organized ball groups to buff their teammates, as a consequence other ball group teammates do not have to experience diminishing returns for wearing only proc sets.
4. Proc sets allow highly organized ball groups to overheal their teammates (often for free), as a consequence making them literally IMMUNE TO DAMAGE, especially damage over time abilities. Also because they are overhealing all the time, it renders all proc sets that are designed against groups (such as Vicious Death) completely useless. Instead, these ball groups benefit from the fact that they can cause major peaks in damage and utilize Vicious Death against casual players.
5. Proc sets allow highly organized ball groups to cleanse their teammates (often for free), same consequence as point 4.
6. Proc sets allow highly organized ball groups to ignore stuns, roots, snares, and silence. As a consequence, it is impossible to fix ball groups in a point and negating them is literally useless.

I will probably get a lot of negative backlash from this. Well, I don't care. Proc sets ruin the fun for all casual players (which is the majority of PvP players) and only these highly organized ball groups of 12 players "enjoy" this meta. In other words, the majority of players have seen the fun diminish while only a small group of players have more fun now because they can infinitely farm casual players and enjoy (almost) complete immunity to any counter action.

Imagine wanting to have the same efficiency playing as a casual, than an optimized group (with actual experienced PvP players who spend hundreds of hours perfecting their skills/group play).

If you recall, even with no procsets, some good groups still had big advantages over casuals, i can agree to some extent that some sets do exacerbate this gap, but nothing near to what you describe.

If enemy groups use that sets, and you want to be competitive, start to use them also ; If enemy coordinates in a good group and has advantage, why don't you start to do the same? Organize, make builds/setups/tactics, study enemy and learn how to counter them.

Expecting playing casual vs. organized group and win easily doesn't make any sense. Take out all sets ingame, organized groups will still have advantage over casuals/inexperienced players.

DjinnAeternam

HanStolo wrote: »

Their biggest weapon is they cause everyone's performance around them to be unplayable while they do whatever they want.

Thats actually not true at all, if you notice when faction stacks in zergs that also causes big performance drops, everyone struggles to use skills, some don't even work anymore.

DjinnAeternam

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Why can't we just stop heals of the same type stacking and put a ramping cost on purge?

Ballgroups would die pretty fast without these things.

Groups would run more purgers, and use more healers, that would have some impact, but not what you are expecting.

DTStormfox

DjinnAeternam wrote: »

Imagine wanting to have the same efficiency playing as a casual, than an optimized group (with actual experienced PvP players who spend hundreds of hours perfecting their skills/group play).

Strawman. This is not what I want.

DjinnAeternam wrote: »

If you recall, even with no procsets, some good groups still had big advantages over casuals, i can agree to some extent that some sets do exacerbate this gap, but nothing near to what you describe.

Yes, they had an advantage but not as big as it is now. In my experience, ball groups are literally immune now. The sets that were enabled during the 'no proc sets test' only benefited the stats of the individual player. Hence every player could only boost themselves. There are plenty of examples of proc sets that are now enabled that benefit entire groups, giving everybody in the group minor (and sometimes major) buffs or automatic resource regeneration bonuses.

DjinnAeternam wrote: »

If enemy groups use that sets, and you want to be competitive, start to use them also ; If enemy coordinates in a good group and has advantage, why don't you start to do the same? Organize, make builds/setups/tactics, study enemy and learn how to counter them.

There is the good old "get good" argument again. This is avoiding the problem and blaming the problem on the victim.

DjinnAeternam wrote: »

Expecting playing casual vs. organized group and win easily doesn't make any sense. Take out all sets ingame, organized groups will still have advantage over casuals/inexperienced players.

Another strawman. I am not expecting casuals to win easily. And yes, also when you take all sets out of the game, organized groups would still have an advantage. However, that is not the point. The point is: proc sets benefit organized groups way too much. Yesterday evening, for example, a ball group was running around in a keep and they were unkillable. Only when the entire faction stacked on the ball group, they were killed. If it really takes a faction stack to kill a ball group, something is wrong with the balance. I am not blaming the ball groups for this. I blame the imbalance that proc sets created for this.

Goregrinder

Uh well there is another thread that claims ballgroups are now ruined because of all the bombers roaming around....so which is it? Ballgroups are getting rekt by bombers, or are ball groups destroying everything including bombers? I am confuse...