The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
zelaminator wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »No, RNG in this game is simply broken. Maybe but accident, maybe intentionally (another gambling practice like crates), but pandemic is slowly going over and most casuals would probably quit a game that is having such practices, when instead of exploring and learning new stuff you are expected to be mindlessly grinding.
Well, they stuck around so far.. They'll probably endure this too The grind is there, sure, but it has been reduced massively through the sticker book
The sticker book did not reduce the grind the chances for getting an item are the same with and without it. The transmute system did because traits don't matter now, at least not as much.
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
When 80% of the playerbase is new and the established players are quitting because of the grind, or no longer doing endgame content because of the grind, that is very unhealthy for future growth of the game because those new players won't have more experienced players to mentor and guide them. Eventually it all crashes down.
(Numbers pulled from thin air, I have no idea what the player retention numbers are like, but the point still stands.)
Nastassiya wrote: »When 80% of the playerbase is new and the established players are quitting because of the grind, or no longer doing endgame content because of the grind, that is very unhealthy for future growth of the game because those new players won't have more experienced players to mentor and guide them. Eventually it all crashes down.
(Numbers pulled from thin air, I have no idea what the player retention numbers are like, but the point still stands.)
If a high percentage of people are quitting because of a grind for a few weapons that alcasthq consider "essential" then people should research their own builds. My build varies, based on the content I want to run. Also, if people quit because they don't get their Medusa staff after 20 runs, well then they don't understand this is how MMOs are designed. Every MMO is designed to keep people logging in and playing.
WoW actually did it right with how gear has item levels and making things obsolete. Arx Corinium really should have become obsolete ages ago. It's silly how people take Medusa into vet trials because it's still "meta" and nearly a decade later people still complain about not getting the staff so easily. It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get. There are other builds that can still do insane damage.
When 80% of the playerbase is new and the established players are quitting because of the grind, or no longer doing endgame content because of the grind, that is very unhealthy for future growth of the game because those new players won't have more experienced players to mentor and guide them. Eventually it all crashes down.
(Numbers pulled from thin air, I have no idea what the player retention numbers are like, but the point still stands.)
Uhhhh if you think endgame players follow Alcast you know nothing about endgame. LMAO.
I have 6 different builds that I use just in one trial, quick swapping between encounters... but that's trifecta progression for you.
Nastassiya wrote: »When 80% of the playerbase is new and the established players are quitting because of the grind, or no longer doing endgame content because of the grind, that is very unhealthy for future growth of the game because those new players won't have more experienced players to mentor and guide them. Eventually it all crashes down.
(Numbers pulled from thin air, I have no idea what the player retention numbers are like, but the point still stands.)
If a high percentage of people are quitting because of a grind for a few weapons that alcasthq consider "essential" then people should research their own builds. My build varies, based on the content I want to run. Also, if people quit because they don't get their Medusa staff after 20 runs, well then they don't understand this is how MMOs are designed. Every MMO is designed to keep people logging in and playing.
WoW actually did it right with how gear has item levels and making things obsolete. Arx Corinium really should have become obsolete ages ago. It's silly how people take Medusa into vet trials because it's still "meta" and nearly a decade later people still complain about not getting the staff so easily. It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get. There are other builds that can still do insane damage.
Uhhhh if you think endgame players follow Alcast you know nothing about endgame. LMAO.
I have 6 different builds that I use just in one trial, quick swapping between encounters... but that's trifecta progression for you.
It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Nastassiya wrote: »It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get.
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »No, we do not need a token system this is not World of Warcraft.
rootkitronin wrote: »Nastassiya wrote: »It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get.
But it is easy to get... you don't need to do anything special, it's not a difficult dungeon, the only obstacle is RNG - all you need to do to get it is literally get a lucky draw, nothing more.
It has the same drop rate as any other piece of equivalent dungeon gear - none of which is based off of how useful or how popular the item is.
That's the frustration, it's just an arbitrary wall that blocks progression for some, but not all, based on luck and not skill or effort. It would be nice to actually earn the item - grinding for RNG isn't earning anything, it's just playing the lottery.
It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
alberichtano wrote: »It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.
Nastassiya wrote: »When 80% of the playerbase is new and the established players are quitting because of the grind, or no longer doing endgame content because of the grind, that is very unhealthy for future growth of the game because those new players won't have more experienced players to mentor and guide them. Eventually it all crashes down.
(Numbers pulled from thin air, I have no idea what the player retention numbers are like, but the point still stands.)
If a high percentage of people are quitting because of a grind for a few weapons that alcasthq consider "essential" then people should research their own builds. My build varies, based on the content I want to run. Also, if people quit because they don't get their Medusa staff after 20 runs, well then they don't understand this is how MMOs are designed. Every MMO is designed to keep people logging in and playing.
WoW actually did it right with how gear has item levels and making things obsolete. Arx Corinium really should have become obsolete ages ago. It's silly how people take Medusa into vet trials because it's still "meta" and nearly a decade later people still complain about not getting the staff so easily. It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get. There are other builds that can still do insane damage.
VampReworkFailed wrote: »alberichtano wrote: »It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand that a token system would actually draw so many more players to the dungeon side of the game. Turns out, most people don't like grinding dungeons because being at the mercy of RNG isn't fun!
Wild, isn't it? How people would rather /work/ and /earn/ a goal they can actually complete than play item-lottery.
This is literally the same guy who probably thinks winning the IRL lottery is considered hardwork yet gradually building savings up over time at a job isn't considered 'working'
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
VampReworkFailed wrote: »rootkitronin wrote: »Nastassiya wrote: »It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get.
But it is easy to get... you don't need to do anything special, it's not a difficult dungeon, the only obstacle is RNG - all you need to do to get it is literally get a lucky draw, nothing more.
It has the same drop rate as any other piece of equivalent dungeon gear - none of which is based off of how useful or how popular the item is.
That's the frustration, it's just an arbitrary wall that blocks progression for some, but not all, based on luck and not skill or effort. It would be nice to actually earn the item - grinding for RNG isn't earning anything, it's just playing the lottery.
Exactly. These people such as @ThorianB PREACH about 'earning' yet RNG isn't working or earning anything. It's literally just getting lucky. Where as a token system would....actually....make you earn and work towards something if you are unlucky with RNG.
These people are literally against implementing a system that lets them earn and work towards X or Y goal without having to rely on RNG. It is absolutely. Insane.
alberichtano wrote: »VampReworkFailed wrote: »alberichtano wrote: »It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand that a token system would actually draw so many more players to the dungeon side of the game. Turns out, most people don't like grinding dungeons because being at the mercy of RNG isn't fun!
Wild, isn't it? How people would rather /work/ and /earn/ a goal they can actually complete than play item-lottery.
This is literally the same guy who probably thinks winning the IRL lottery is considered hardwork yet gradually building savings up over time at a job isn't considered 'working'
Indeed, this is interesting. I have had this thought in my head for a little while now, reading this and similar threads.
There was a research test done somewhere (memory fails on details), where they set up a games of Monopoly on test subjects. One player was given a clear and obvious advantage - more starting money, extra dice rolls, things like that. Obviously, these advantaged players won more often than not. The interesting thing is that when interviewed about the game later, they often bragged about how they won due to their EFFORTS, not because the had a good head start.
This situation reminds me of that. People who have had luck with their RNG, who have the gear they need think that it is "bad" that others, who were not so lucky, get a bit of help on the road. Because that would mean that more people get the same sets that they have "earned" through sheer dumb luck.
(Hope I don't get banned for this entry.)
It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
You like to dismiss every counter argument as "whataboutism" don't you? Did we just learn about whataboutism and it is now our favorite non-argument for everything?
1. The industry standard is for MMOs to be MORE grindy than this one currently is because they use grind as filler between content drops.
2. Your argument is that it is bad to have grind, which i disagree with. Grind is not bad. Removing grind is. The easier it is to obtain items, the faster the game gets boring.
3. Everything you stated is your opinion. Statistically speaking, the general playerbase thinks the grind is fine or they wouldn't keep playing.
4. At the end of the day your video amounts to the same argument as radiant apex mounts( Its nice to find people found something similar to complain about to replace radiant apex complaint. It's a " have not" situation followed by a " i don't want to put the effort in to require" followed by a " you should just give me participation points so i can spend those on acquiring it" which is basically the same argument used for radiant apex mounts. This all boils down to " I don't like the effort i have to put into the game to do X, so rather than just not do X and move on, i want them to change the entire game and make it easier so i don't have to put so much effort into playing"VampReworkFailed wrote: »rootkitronin wrote: »Nastassiya wrote: »It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get.
But it is easy to get... you don't need to do anything special, it's not a difficult dungeon, the only obstacle is RNG - all you need to do to get it is literally get a lucky draw, nothing more.
It has the same drop rate as any other piece of equivalent dungeon gear - none of which is based off of how useful or how popular the item is.
That's the frustration, it's just an arbitrary wall that blocks progression for some, but not all, based on luck and not skill or effort. It would be nice to actually earn the item - grinding for RNG isn't earning anything, it's just playing the lottery.
Exactly. These people such as @ThorianB PREACH about 'earning' yet RNG isn't working or earning anything. It's literally just getting lucky. Where as a token system would....actually....make you earn and work towards something if you are unlucky with RNG.
These people are literally against implementing a system that lets them earn and work towards X or Y goal without having to rely on RNG. It is absolutely. Insane.
Actually it is earning because you EARN the chance each time you kill the boss. Except as is you are earning chances to get a specific drop as opposed to earning participation points and just buying what you want. We don't have to invent a currency for that, lets just make everything in the game purchasable for gold from level 1. We can turn it into Elder Shopping Online.alberichtano wrote: »VampReworkFailed wrote: »alberichtano wrote: »It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand that a token system would actually draw so many more players to the dungeon side of the game. Turns out, most people don't like grinding dungeons because being at the mercy of RNG isn't fun!
Wild, isn't it? How people would rather /work/ and /earn/ a goal they can actually complete than play item-lottery.
This is literally the same guy who probably thinks winning the IRL lottery is considered hardwork yet gradually building savings up over time at a job isn't considered 'working'
Indeed, this is interesting. I have had this thought in my head for a little while now, reading this and similar threads.
There was a research test done somewhere (memory fails on details), where they set up a games of Monopoly on test subjects. One player was given a clear and obvious advantage - more starting money, extra dice rolls, things like that. Obviously, these advantaged players won more often than not. The interesting thing is that when interviewed about the game later, they often bragged about how they won due to their EFFORTS, not because the had a good head start.
This situation reminds me of that. People who have had luck with their RNG, who have the gear they need think that it is "bad" that others, who were not so lucky, get a bit of help on the road. Because that would mean that more people get the same sets that they have "earned" through sheer dumb luck.
(Hope I don't get banned for this entry.)
I don't care enough about having specific sets in a specific amount of time to care about RNG. I do things because they are fun. So If i need something from a dungeon i will run it when i feel like it. If i dont feel like it i won't because i can kill stuff as is.
HOWEVER, i could argue the opposite. People who don't have "good luck" always feel the need to cheat the odds. To tip the scale in there favor. The change the rules of the game so it works out for them instead of just accepting the game as it is.
But whether you're earning chances to get a specific drop, or earning participation points towards an item... you're literally doing the exact same thing - you're still grinding.
Actually it is earning because you EARN the chance each time you kill the boss. Except as is you are earning chances to get a specific drop as opposed to earning participation points and just buying what you want.
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
VampReworkFailed wrote: »alberichtano wrote: »It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand that a token system would actually draw so many more players to the dungeon side of the game. Turns out, most people don't like grinding dungeons because being at the mercy of RNG isn't fun!
Wild, isn't it? How people would rather /work/ and /earn/ a goal they can actually complete than play item-lottery.
This is literally the same guy who probably thinks winning the IRL lottery is considered hardwork yet gradually building savings up over time at a job isn't considered 'working'
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
You like to dismiss every counter argument as "whataboutism" don't you? Did we just learn about whataboutism and it is now our favorite non-argument for everything?
1. The industry standard is for MMOs to be MORE grindy than this one currently is because they use grind as filler between content drops.
2. Your argument is that it is bad to have grind, which i disagree with. Grind is not bad. Removing grind is. The easier it is to obtain items, the faster the game gets boring.
3. Everything you stated is your opinion. Statistically speaking, the general playerbase thinks the grind is fine or they wouldn't keep playing.
4. At the end of the day your video amounts to the same argument as radiant apex mounts( Its nice to find people found something similar to complain about to replace radiant apex complaint. It's a " have not" situation followed by a " i don't want to put the effort in to require" followed by a " you should just give me participation points so i can spend those on acquiring it" which is basically the same argument used for radiant apex mounts. This all boils down to " I don't like the effort i have to put into the game to do X, so rather than just not do X and move on, i want them to change the entire game and make it easier so i don't have to put so much effort into playing"VampReworkFailed wrote: »rootkitronin wrote: »Nastassiya wrote: »It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get.
But it is easy to get... you don't need to do anything special, it's not a difficult dungeon, the only obstacle is RNG - all you need to do to get it is literally get a lucky draw, nothing more.
It has the same drop rate as any other piece of equivalent dungeon gear - none of which is based off of how useful or how popular the item is.
That's the frustration, it's just an arbitrary wall that blocks progression for some, but not all, based on luck and not skill or effort. It would be nice to actually earn the item - grinding for RNG isn't earning anything, it's just playing the lottery.
Exactly. These people such as @ThorianB PREACH about 'earning' yet RNG isn't working or earning anything. It's literally just getting lucky. Where as a token system would....actually....make you earn and work towards something if you are unlucky with RNG.
These people are literally against implementing a system that lets them earn and work towards X or Y goal without having to rely on RNG. It is absolutely. Insane.
Actually it is earning because you EARN the chance each time you kill the boss. Except as is you are earning chances to get a specific drop as opposed to earning participation points and just buying what you want. We don't have to invent a currency for that, lets just make everything in the game purchasable for gold from level 1. We can turn it into Elder Shopping Online.alberichtano wrote: »VampReworkFailed wrote: »alberichtano wrote: »It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand that a token system would actually draw so many more players to the dungeon side of the game. Turns out, most people don't like grinding dungeons because being at the mercy of RNG isn't fun!
Wild, isn't it? How people would rather /work/ and /earn/ a goal they can actually complete than play item-lottery.
This is literally the same guy who probably thinks winning the IRL lottery is considered hardwork yet gradually building savings up over time at a job isn't considered 'working'
Indeed, this is interesting. I have had this thought in my head for a little while now, reading this and similar threads.
There was a research test done somewhere (memory fails on details), where they set up a games of Monopoly on test subjects. One player was given a clear and obvious advantage - more starting money, extra dice rolls, things like that. Obviously, these advantaged players won more often than not. The interesting thing is that when interviewed about the game later, they often bragged about how they won due to their EFFORTS, not because the had a good head start.
This situation reminds me of that. People who have had luck with their RNG, who have the gear they need think that it is "bad" that others, who were not so lucky, get a bit of help on the road. Because that would mean that more people get the same sets that they have "earned" through sheer dumb luck.
(Hope I don't get banned for this entry.)
I don't care enough about having specific sets in a specific amount of time to care about RNG. I do things because they are fun. So If i need something from a dungeon i will run it when i feel like it. If i dont feel like it i won't because i can kill stuff as is.
HOWEVER, i could argue the opposite. People who don't have "good luck" always feel the need to cheat the odds. To tip the scale in there favor. The change the rules of the game so it works out for them instead of just accepting the game as it is.
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
It says his opinions differ from you own and nothing else.
Honestly we don't know how many players (if any) the current system drives away. We don't know what percentage of players give up on an item because of RNG and we don't know how many players would not bother if say one weapon was 100 tokens. We are all of us making assumptions on our personal observations and biases.
And I still say if it is a grind quit doing it for a while. It is only a grind because we make it so. A player created problem not a game created problem. This is gear we want not gear we need.
I token system if correctly implemented would probably be a good thing. Problem is to be properly implemented the number of tokens required would appear daunting to some. That would be necessary to maintain some level of players repeating content. Players repeating content is an absolute must for an MMO to survive.
rootkitronin wrote: »But whether you're earning chances to get a specific drop, or earning participation points towards an item... you're literally doing the exact same thing - you're still grinding.
Actually it is earning because you EARN the chance each time you kill the boss. Except as is you are earning chances to get a specific drop as opposed to earning participation points and just buying what you want.
The only difference is that one grind has no known end point, where as the other would have a set endpoint - a sanity check for people who are getting very poor RNG.
How would that be a bad thing? Everyone still has to go through the same slog, but at least for the bottom 33% of players, there would at least be a light at the end of the tunnel.
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
It says his opinions differ from you own and nothing else.
Honestly we don't know how many players (if any) the current system drives away. We don't know what percentage of players give up on an item because of RNG and we don't know how many players would not bother if say one weapon was 100 tokens. We are all of us making assumptions on our personal observations and biases.
And I still say if it is a grind quit doing it for a while. It is only a grind because we make it so. A player created problem not a game created problem. This is gear we want not gear we need.
I token system if correctly implemented would probably be a good thing. Problem is to be properly implemented the number of tokens required would appear daunting to some. That would be necessary to maintain some level of players repeating content. Players repeating content is an absolute must for an MMO to survive.
If i think his (or her, idk) opinion is based on flawed logic, I will point it out.
I stopped grinding the medusa staff weeks ago and i will never grind again until a token system is implemented; but that does not mean i stopped caring about the health of this game.
Again, as soon as someone gives me a solid argument against a simple-to-implement token system like the one i suggested I will reconsider it, but not until then.
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
It says his opinions differ from you own and nothing else.
Honestly we don't know how many players (if any) the current system drives away. We don't know what percentage of players give up on an item because of RNG and we don't know how many players would not bother if say one weapon was 100 tokens. We are all of us making assumptions on our personal observations and biases.
And I still say if it is a grind quit doing it for a while. It is only a grind because we make it so. A player created problem not a game created problem. This is gear we want not gear we need.
I token system if correctly implemented would probably be a good thing. Problem is to be properly implemented the number of tokens required would appear daunting to some. That would be necessary to maintain some level of players repeating content. Players repeating content is an absolute must for an MMO to survive.
If i think his (or her, idk) opinion is based on flawed logic, I will point it out.
I stopped grinding the medusa staff weeks ago and i will never grind again until a token system is implemented; but that does not mean i stopped caring about the health of this game.
Again, as soon as someone gives me a solid argument against a simple-to-implement token system like the one i suggested I will reconsider it, but not until then.
The solid argument is that an MMO needs players to repeat content to survive. It also needs players doing a variety of content and of course new content.
If tokens were specific to the dungeons you run that would take care of the variety of content thing some as players couldn't just run Fungal Grotto over and over for a Medusa staff. I did say tying a token to pledges would probably be the most practical way to introduce tokens if they are ever in the game. Should take a hell of a lot of tokens though. I would say at least 150% of the average runs it would take to get the piece you want. So if the average is 80 runs it should take 120 tokens.
One other comment. You compare ESO to Guild Wars 2 in your video then claim whataboutism when someone who has a differing opinion makes a comparison to other games. If you didn't want others to compare to different games you should have followed those same rules.