Why ESO needs a token system

Masel

Hi!

The recent grind i did for medusa staves has frustrated me so much that i had to make a video about the ridiculous RNG that this game this has.

So I did some math based on the information I had on loot tables and realized how bad the situation actually is. Explanations and stuff in the video!

https://youtu.be/tbVeO1WSlIU

Cheers,

Masel

zelaminator

It does not

Malthorne

Yes it does

sarahthes

zelaminator wrote: »

It does not

Did you watch the video? It maths out that you need to run an average of 78x to get the item you're farming if it is a weapon.

That seems a bit excessive.

Danikat

I agree that this would be a good addition. Keep the current drops but include tokens as an alternative so you know the absolute maximum number of attempts it will take.

They could make that more than the expected average of course. Say for example they expect it to take an average of 50 runs to get a specific weapon from a dungeon, each successful completion gives 1 token and the weapon costs 100 tokens, so you only get it that way if you've put in twice the effort ZOS expect without any success.

(An alternative would be a system like some other games use where behind the scenes it keeps track of how many attempts you've made and increases the drop rate each time so eventually you will succeed. So it starts off with a 10% chance or whatever, then the next time it's 12%, then 14% and so on. Once you get the drop it resets to the base value. But that might be a bit much for ESO's servers.)

Masel

zelaminator wrote: »

It does not

So you're okay with investing 13563207562 hours for a single item?

Because that's technically possible if there is no guarantee, e.g. in form of a token system.

Systems that rely on chance only are gambling and nothing else.

cmetzger93

I absolutely agree but it should just be limited to items. After running DSA over 10 times for the new lead I am about to just give up

Tommy_The_Gun

sarahthes wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

It does not

Did you watch the video? It maths out that you need to run an average of 78x to get the item you're farming if it is a weapon.

That seems a bit excessive.

78 if you are lucky. I remember that some time ago I needed Draugr Hulk great sword and it took me ONLY 104 runs. No joke. Despite being able to often find chests, it took me way to long than it is necessary. Some kind of token system should be introduced.
Funny thing is that IC dungeons actually have something like that. You have trophy vaults that you can open with special currency (key stones). Also thos "key stones" are tradeable so you could technically "buy" dungeon gear with gold. Other, simpler way would be to simply make all gear in eso tradeable.

Ksariyu

I've long vouched for dungeons to drop materials that could be used to craft set gear, which would essentially do the same thing (While also adding a much needed reason for crafters to actually exist). Lucky people aside, very few argue that the RNG grind in this game is reasonable, especially for a B2P game. It's just insane the number of runs it takes, even with multiple people in the group looking for the pieces, to get certain weapon/jewelry pieces.

Xebov

What the game needs is some system that adds an upper limit to the amount of tries it should take to get anything in the game. This is not only for weapons, but also for leads and some otehr rare things.

For gear a token system is only one possibility. Another would be that we have a chance of obtaining an item we dont have yet collected that increases everytime we dont get one. You could also have the loot tables for gear unified and simply have all bosses drop everything.

zelaminator

sarahthes wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

It does not

Did you watch the video? It maths out that you need to run an average of 78x to get the item you're farming if it is a weapon.

That seems a bit excessive.

I did not, no.. saw no reason for it

Masel wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

It does not

So you're okay with investing 13563207562 hours for a single item?

Because that's technically possible if there is no guarantee, e.g. in form of a token system.

Systems that rely on chance only are gambling and nothing else.

I am okay with the system, yes.. if not, I would not play.. I could also get the staff on my first run

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

So if Masel is a class rep that means we are getting this system, right?
I can't imagine letting him freely rant otherwise

Hi Masel by the way *waves*

Elsonso

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

some time ago I needed Draugr Hulk great sword and it took me ONLY 104 runs. No joke. Despite being able to often find chests, it took me way to long than it is necessary. Some kind of token system should be introduced.
Funny thing is that IC dungeons actually have something like that. You have trophy vaults that you can open with special currency (key stones). Also thos "key stones" are tradeable so you could technically "buy" dungeon gear with gold. Other, simpler way would be to simply make all gear in eso tradeable.

That is the difference between a guaranteed drop and a drop that is not guaranteed.

It seems obvious to me that the ESO designers wanted a system where the drops in question were not guaranteed. Instead, roughly half the people would eventually get it in the first "X" attempt while the other half would not. Thus, some number of people attempting would never get the drop. That is RNG.

The token systems tend to be guarantee, in so far as the currency used to buy them does not drop randomly and cannot be shared.

That is a fundamental entitlement issue. Is the player entitled to that drop, and thus the drop should be guaranteed?

Shantu

Totally agree, but I doubt ZOS cares about a the negative impact of a player's invested time due to RNG. In fact, keeping you logged in, for whatever reason (including grinding for 100 hours), is the primary principle that underpins the entire game. The longer you're logged in, the more likely you are to spend real money in the Crown Store. In doing so, they leverage the gambling and obsessive tendencies people have to obtain a desired item. In other words, not having something you want motivates you to log in to get it.

Now I would agree that getting said item would offer a greater sense of satisfaction and motivate you to log in to do something you actually enjoy...until it becomes boring. Leveraging the urge to gamble and grind, however, is a constant, regardless of how one feels about it. So unfortunately, my guess it that ZOS sees terrible RNG as a much more profitable approach. Hence, it never changes regardless of how many times some kind equitable resolution is brought up.

MasterWarrior

I agree with the OP, there should be a token system in ESO. But it should be only be earnable by doing doing random dungeons or pledges.

OR

Make weapons purchaseable with undaunted keys but make it so it costs like 50 keys. Undaunted keys are essentially tokens too.

Lephrel

I would welcome a system to limit the amount of time needed to get a specific drop (e.g. tokens). Unfortunately, ZOS has a tendency to replace actual content (and a working pvp environment) with gruelling gear farms - nearly every update you have to re-gear some/all of your characters for both pve and pvp. I suppose we should be thankful for shared loot, transmutation and the collection system and move on. I seriously doubt they will make gear grinds any easier, apart from maybe adding double drops to ESO+ .

Generally, drop chances are a very interesting topic imo. Has it ever actually been confirmed that item drops are statistically independent events? And do all weapon and armour types share the same drop chances? Intuitively, this should be the case, but some players are convinced that there dark and mysterious forces at play when it comes to item drops. I once got five 1hs drops in a row from vma (including reward mails), that totally freaked me out. ^^

Even if drop chances are as simple as they are in the video, should they be? Maybe a far more elegant solution to the gear grind problem would be a more sophisticated drop system. For example, they could decrease the chances of dropping items you have already looted or bound to your collections, making it less likely to end up with an inventory full of undaunted infiltrator mauls and without a single medusa staff.

BTW: In English you don't usually say "x high N" (like you do in German) but "x to the power of N" instead.

Masel

Youyouz06 wrote: »

So if Masel is a class rep that means we are getting this system, right?
I can't imagine letting him freely rant otherwise

Hi Masel by the way *waves*

HI!

I can rant about whatever I want, as long as I don't break the NDA

Let me put it this way: If i knew that this system was coming, I wouldn't have to do this video.

The problem is that the devs with whom we as reps are in regular contact with aren't the same devs who get to decide these things, so tough luck

Nastassiya

This game does NOT need a token system. Some items should require grinding and not be easy to obtain.

EverQuest, I spent over 730 active play hours for 1 item for my Shadow Knight Epic.

A Medusa Staff is essentially an epic weapon for spell casters. It should not be easy to obtain and not everyone should be able to easily built out their character with their dream gear.

Elsonso

Lephrel wrote: »

Generally, drop chances are a very interesting topic imo. Has it ever actually been confirmed that item drops are statistically independent events? And do all weapon and armour types share the same drop chances? Intuitively, this should be the case, but some players are convinced that there dark and mysterious forces at play when it comes to item drops. I once got five 1hs drops in a row from vma (including reward mails), that totally freaked me out. ^^

No one really knows how the RNG works in this game. They love the concept, and people can sometimes spend an inordinate amount of time fiddling with things they love. At this point, the RNG could be weighted by a number of different criteria. They may even have a trivial task to change it that can be done at any time, or even managed by some automated tool that monitors actual vs planned drops.

Personally, I think it is "random" in name only.

Nastassiya

Edit: I post this in the wrong thread

Masel

Nastassiya wrote: »

This game does NOT need a token system. Some items should require grinding and not be easy to obtain.

EverQuest, I spent over 730 active play hours for 1 item for my Shadow Knight Epic.

A Medusa Staff is essentially an epic weapon for spell casters. It should not be easy to obtain and not everyone should be able to easily built out their character with their dream gear.

You do not make any argument that is valid here. Instead, you provide a selfish reason for why you think other people should invest as much time as you did.

I'm fairly certain you didnt watch the video, because what you did is whataboutism. If one game forces you to spend a lot of time without any reward, is it okay for others to do the same? I don't think it is. Just because Riot Games pours oil into the ocean, is it okay for Zenimax to do the same?

I'm also fairly certain because I explicitly say that its not meant to give items away for free. You still have to invest time, but you at least know that it would not be in vain.

Question 1: How would a token system hurt you?

Right, it wouldn't at all.

Question 2: What is bad about a system that guarantees you a reward if you work hard to get it compared to one that doesn't?

Right, nothing.

Masel

Nastassiya wrote: »

Edit: I post this in the wrong thread

I'm fairly certain that the post in inexactly the right thread

At least it concerns exactly what is discussed here.

Nastassiya

Masel wrote: »

I'm fairly certain that the post in inexactly the right thread

At least it concerns exactly what is discussed here.

No, I actually intended my edited post to go here

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/578530/rollback-the-increased-equipment-damage-rate-please#latest

Masel

Nastassiya wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

I'm fairly certain that the post in inexactly the right thread

At least it concerns exactly what is discussed here.

No, I actually intended my edited post to go here

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/578530/rollback-the-increased-equipment-damage-rate-please#latest

Ah ok, i get it now. Nevermind then!

alberichtano

Ksariyu wrote: »

I've long vouched for dungeons to drop materials that could be used to craft set gear, which would essentially do the same thing (While also adding a much needed reason for crafters to actually exist). Lucky people aside, very few argue that the RNG grind in this game is reasonable, especially for a B2P game. It's just insane the number of runs it takes, even with multiple people in the group looking for the pieces, to get certain weapon/jewelry pieces.

Agreed. I don't even know how many times I did Scalecaller Peak for a shield. Lost count.

To me, there is a difference between having to work for something and to slave away farming with ridiculously small chance of getting what you want. If I want frustration, I go out to real life. :-P

BlueRaven

Maybe just do the content with friends and trade gear drops?

sarahthes

The main reason I take issue with the grind is that dungeon, trial, and arena gear is the only gear that is gated in this way. Overland gear and PvP gear can be purchased from coffers using tokens.

Why is group content gear gated this way?

Masel

BlueRaven wrote: »

Maybe just do the content with friends and trade gear drops?

If you watched the video, you'd know that that argument doesn't cut it.


You have friends that spend hours just to get you the item without any benefit for themselves? Great for you. That doesn't apply to everyone else, which is why on both EU and NA, queuing for Arx gets you into groups that are pretty much guaranteed to include farmers that want the same item as you do. A system that requires you to have other people spend time for you is a bad one. And you're still not guaranteed to get it in a reasonable amount of time, even with 4 people. Keep in mind that usually, everyone in a farming group looks for the same item, so strictly speaking, you'd just have to beat the chance 4 times.


You also didn't watch the video, because I talk about exactly that in there as well.

Nastassiya

sarahthes wrote: »

The main reason I take issue with the grind is that dungeon, trial, and arena gear is the only gear that is gated in this way. Overland gear and PvP gear can be purchased from coffers using tokens.

Why is group content gear gated this way?

To keep the world populated by requiring you to log on and do stuff. The longer you play means more money for the ZOS. I'm an ESO plus player. I've spent more crowns that I want to add up. If this world wasn't populated by players, even free 2 play players, I wouldn't be here. A lot of people wouldn't want to log into an empty world. This mmo would die.

You don't need a staff on day 1, nor a kilt, or to insta class change. The game needs people running around collecting lore books, shards, leads, and dungeons. That keeps the world alive and people logging on to play so ZOS can make money and keep developing this world.

Agenericname

Masel wrote: »

Nastassiya wrote: »

This game does NOT need a token system. Some items should require grinding and not be easy to obtain.

EverQuest, I spent over 730 active play hours for 1 item for my Shadow Knight Epic.

A Medusa Staff is essentially an epic weapon for spell casters. It should not be easy to obtain and not everyone should be able to easily built out their character with their dream gear.

You do not make any argument that is valid here. Instead, you provide a selfish reason for why you think other people should invest as much time as you did.

I'm fairly certain you didnt watch the video, because what you did is whataboutism. If one game forces you to spend a lot of time without any reward, is it okay for others to do the same? I don't think it is. Just because Riot Games pours oil into the ocean, is it okay for Zenimax to do the same?

I'm also fairly certain because I explicitly say that its not meant to give items away for free. You still have to invest time, but you at least know that it would not be in vain.

Question 1: How would a token system hurt you?

Right, it wouldn't at all.

Question 2: What is bad about a system that guarantees you a reward if you work hard to get it compared to one that doesn't?

Right, nothing.

Question 1 should be rephrased to "How would a token system effect ZOS?" It wouldnt hurt me at all, but that's not what is stopping it from happening. We are doing older content. We complain, but we do it. And we will do it until we get it. Working as intended.

Elsonso

Masel wrote: »

Question 1: How would a token system hurt you?

Right, it wouldn't at all.

Question 2: What is bad about a system that guarantees you a reward if you work hard to get it?

Right, nothing.

The token system is philosophically different from the RNG system. The real question is whether it is the intention of the developers to not guarantee that everyone gets the drop they want. If that is the intent, then a token system replacement would have to be similarly "harsh" in execution. Thus, the answer to #2 would be "because that is not what the developers want".