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Why ESO needs a token system
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MaselClass Representative
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lotPC EU
All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA2 -
rootkitronin✭✭✭✭✭The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
So, wait a second... what's the difference between grinding over and over again until you get your reward, and grinding a set amount of time until you get your reward? You haven't done anything special either way, it's just the amount of time put into it... one being random, the other being set.
What exactly is the work that people are doing to get their RNG? If they're working for it, that seems to suggest that their actions have some sort of affect on the outcome... but it's RNG, their actions don't. So where's the work? Putting more work into it does not ensure a better outcome - and in the case of the Arx, it's not very difficult content.
Or by work do we just mean putting time into it? Does the number of times you run the dungeon affect the outcome, no, no it does not.
And what about all the people that just waltzed in and got the item on their first/second/third try, why didn't they have to work for it or put the time into it? There's probably a good 33% of players out there who had no problem getting the item whatsoever.
So... one group of random people should just have a much easier time getting the same item as another group of random people? Well that doesn't seem balanced, or based off of work, time, skill, effort, or anything of value that should be rewarded.
I agree, that giving away items isn't a solution either (and no one is really suggesting that), but I'd like to believe there are some better and more constructive designs out there than just leaving it all up to chance - no one is earning anything that way, it's just luck not work.3 -
zelaminator✭✭✭✭✭
✭zelaminator wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »No, RNG in this game is simply broken. Maybe but accident, maybe intentionally (another gambling practice like crates), but pandemic is slowly going over and most casuals would probably quit a game that is having such practices, when instead of exploring and learning new stuff you are expected to be mindlessly grinding.
Well, they stuck around so far.. They'll probably endure this too
The grind is there, sure, but it has been reduced massively through the sticker book
The sticker book did not reduce the grind the chances for getting an item are the same with and without it. The transmute system did because traits don't matter now, at least not as much.
I'd still say that the stickerbook had a hand in reducing the grind, since the transmutation system is only half of it Of course you could keep re-using the same piece of gear across your characters, but that would be a pain 1 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
When 80% of the playerbase is new and the established players are quitting because of the grind, or no longer doing endgame content because of the grind, that is very unhealthy for future growth of the game because those new players won't have more experienced players to mentor and guide them. Eventually it all crashes down.
(Numbers pulled from thin air, I have no idea what the player retention numbers are like, but the point still stands.)3 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
Amazing how we keep coming back to this, a claim that has been refuted multiple times despite the fact there was literally never any argument to support the claim at all.
Villainizing those who disagree with you using claims that have never, not once, been offered in good faith is a bad look.Edited by MasterSpatula on 22 June 2021 21:32"A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle6 -
Nastassiya✭✭✭When 80% of the playerbase is new and the established players are quitting because of the grind, or no longer doing endgame content because of the grind, that is very unhealthy for future growth of the game because those new players won't have more experienced players to mentor and guide them. Eventually it all crashes down.
(Numbers pulled from thin air, I have no idea what the player retention numbers are like, but the point still stands.)
If a high percentage of people are quitting because of a grind for a few weapons that alcasthq consider "essential" then people should research their own builds. My build varies, based on the content I want to run. Also, if people quit because they don't get their Medusa staff after 20 runs, well then they don't understand this is how MMOs are designed. Every MMO is designed to keep people logging in and playing.
WoW actually did it right with how gear has item levels and making things obsolete. Arx Corinium really should have become obsolete ages ago. It's silly how people take Medusa into vet trials because it's still "meta" and nearly a decade later people still complain about not getting the staff so easily. It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get. There are other builds that can still do insane damage.
Edited by Nastassiya on 22 June 2021 21:422 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nastassiya wrote: »When 80% of the playerbase is new and the established players are quitting because of the grind, or no longer doing endgame content because of the grind, that is very unhealthy for future growth of the game because those new players won't have more experienced players to mentor and guide them. Eventually it all crashes down.
(Numbers pulled from thin air, I have no idea what the player retention numbers are like, but the point still stands.)
If a high percentage of people are quitting because of a grind for a few weapons that alcasthq consider "essential" then people should research their own builds. My build varies, based on the content I want to run. Also, if people quit because they don't get their Medusa staff after 20 runs, well then they don't understand this is how MMOs are designed. Every MMO is designed to keep people logging in and playing.
WoW actually did it right with how gear has item levels and making things obsolete. Arx Corinium really should have become obsolete ages ago. It's silly how people take Medusa into vet trials because it's still "meta" and nearly a decade later people still complain about not getting the staff so easily. It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get. There are other builds that can still do insane damage.
Uhhhh if you think endgame players follow Alcast you know nothing about endgame. LMAO.
I have 6 different builds that I use just in one trial, quick swapping between encounters... but that's trifecta progression for you.3 -
zelaminator✭✭✭✭✭
✭When 80% of the playerbase is new and the established players are quitting because of the grind, or no longer doing endgame content because of the grind, that is very unhealthy for future growth of the game because those new players won't have more experienced players to mentor and guide them. Eventually it all crashes down.
(Numbers pulled from thin air, I have no idea what the player retention numbers are like, but the point still stands.)
I love your thought line here It's the job of older players to guide the new ones along, so we need a good amount of them.. Luckily though, it still seems that we are doing fine on that front 1 -
Nastassiya✭✭✭Uhhhh if you think endgame players follow Alcast you know nothing about endgame. LMAO.
I have 6 different builds that I use just in one trial, quick swapping between encounters... but that's trifecta progression for you.
I used TheTankClub for my initial build. But I see so many people throwing around AlCast. I'm aware that most vet/
hm trial guilds set their own requirements for builds1 -
xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nastassiya wrote: »When 80% of the playerbase is new and the established players are quitting because of the grind, or no longer doing endgame content because of the grind, that is very unhealthy for future growth of the game because those new players won't have more experienced players to mentor and guide them. Eventually it all crashes down.
(Numbers pulled from thin air, I have no idea what the player retention numbers are like, but the point still stands.)
If a high percentage of people are quitting because of a grind for a few weapons that alcasthq consider "essential" then people should research their own builds. My build varies, based on the content I want to run. Also, if people quit because they don't get their Medusa staff after 20 runs, well then they don't understand this is how MMOs are designed. Every MMO is designed to keep people logging in and playing.
WoW actually did it right with how gear has item levels and making things obsolete. Arx Corinium really should have become obsolete ages ago. It's silly how people take Medusa into vet trials because it's still "meta" and nearly a decade later people still complain about not getting the staff so easily. It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get. There are other builds that can still do insane damage.
Uhhhh if you think endgame players follow Alcast you know nothing about endgame. LMAO.
I have 6 different builds that I use just in one trial, quick swapping between encounters... but that's trifecta progression for you.
May you never run out of coffee and may your fingers never break.
You will need both, god speed.
Just thinking about trifecta progression gives me an aneurysm lmfaoEdited by xeNNNNN on 22 June 2021 21:56Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.1 -
VampReworkFailed✭✭✭It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
What statistics are you using? Name a game where X niche item has a 1% chance of dropping is a good thing. Im about to blow your mind: no other game locks niche or non-legendary gear behind a 1% droprate.
Also I find it absolutely hilarious you're all for working towards something and fully back RNG which is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to time and work spent, yet think earning tokens for 1 piece of gear isn't 'working'.
You're literally not understanding that to WORK towards something you need to be on the track to GAINING something. RNG doesn't do that. PLEASE EXPLAIN why most other MMOs like ffxiv and gw2 have token systems if this '1% drop rate for an epic piece of gear' is so common and liked.
Edited by VampReworkFailed on 22 June 2021 22:141 -
rootkitronin✭✭✭✭✭Nastassiya wrote: »It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get.
But it is easy to get... you don't need to do anything special, it's not a difficult dungeon, the only obstacle is RNG - all you need to do to get it is literally get a lucky draw, nothing more.
It has the same drop rate as any other piece of equivalent dungeon gear - none of which is based off of how useful or how popular the item is.
That's the frustration, it's just an arbitrary wall that blocks progression for some, but not all, based on luck and not skill or effort. It would be nice to actually earn the item - grinding for RNG isn't earning anything, it's just playing the lottery.
3 -
VampReworkFailed✭✭✭
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
what other mmos have you played? Also, where are you getting the stats that the player population is increasing?
Objectively, grind with an endpoint you can visualize even if you're unlucky leads to happy players and happy players leads to more players. Im STILL WAITING for you to explain why this is a bad thing.Edited by VampReworkFailed on 22 June 2021 22:112 -
VampReworkFailed✭✭✭alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »No, we do not need a token system this is not World of Warcraft.
Ah, so you mean we shouldn't take something that players love in the second most popular MMO and implement it in our mmo? Have any actual reasoning behind that or....?
Do you know how competition works? Chances are if X game has X feature that players love and makes the game better than Y game, then Y game should probably implement something like the feature X game has because it's just common sense.
People. Don.t Like. Endless. Grinds.
TURNS OUT most people like having a goal in sight that they can gradually work towards regardless of bad RNG or not.
4 -
VampReworkFailed✭✭✭rootkitronin wrote: »Nastassiya wrote: »It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get.
But it is easy to get... you don't need to do anything special, it's not a difficult dungeon, the only obstacle is RNG - all you need to do to get it is literally get a lucky draw, nothing more.
It has the same drop rate as any other piece of equivalent dungeon gear - none of which is based off of how useful or how popular the item is.
That's the frustration, it's just an arbitrary wall that blocks progression for some, but not all, based on luck and not skill or effort. It would be nice to actually earn the item - grinding for RNG isn't earning anything, it's just playing the lottery.
Exactly. These people such as @ThorianB PREACH about 'earning' yet RNG isn't working or earning anything. It's literally just getting lucky. Where as a token system would....actually....make you earn and work towards something if you are unlucky with RNG.
These people are literally against implementing a system that lets them earn and work towards X or Y goal without having to rely on RNG. It is absolutely. Insane.4 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.3 -
VampReworkFailed✭✭✭alberichtano wrote: »It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand that a token system would actually draw so many more players to the dungeon side of the game. Turns out, most people don't like grinding dungeons because being at the mercy of RNG isn't fun!
Wild, isn't it? How people would rather /work/ and /earn/ a goal they can actually complete than play item-lottery.
This is literally the same guy who probably thinks winning the IRL lottery is considered hardwork yet gradually building savings up over time at a job isn't considered 'working'3 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nastassiya wrote: »When 80% of the playerbase is new and the established players are quitting because of the grind, or no longer doing endgame content because of the grind, that is very unhealthy for future growth of the game because those new players won't have more experienced players to mentor and guide them. Eventually it all crashes down.
(Numbers pulled from thin air, I have no idea what the player retention numbers are like, but the point still stands.)
If a high percentage of people are quitting because of a grind for a few weapons that alcasthq consider "essential" then people should research their own builds. My build varies, based on the content I want to run. Also, if people quit because they don't get their Medusa staff after 20 runs, well then they don't understand this is how MMOs are designed. Every MMO is designed to keep people logging in and playing.
WoW actually did it right with how gear has item levels and making things obsolete. Arx Corinium really should have become obsolete ages ago. It's silly how people take Medusa into vet trials because it's still "meta" and nearly a decade later people still complain about not getting the staff so easily. It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get. There are other builds that can still do insane damage.
You can research your build to your heart's content, it won't matter smack when the raidleader DEMANDS that you have Set of Uber Metaness to join the party.3 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭VampReworkFailed wrote: »alberichtano wrote: »It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand that a token system would actually draw so many more players to the dungeon side of the game. Turns out, most people don't like grinding dungeons because being at the mercy of RNG isn't fun!
Wild, isn't it? How people would rather /work/ and /earn/ a goal they can actually complete than play item-lottery.
This is literally the same guy who probably thinks winning the IRL lottery is considered hardwork yet gradually building savings up over time at a job isn't considered 'working'
Indeed, this is interesting. I have had this thought in my head for a little while now, reading this and similar threads.
There was a research test done somewhere (memory fails on details), where they set up a games of Monopoly on test subjects. One player was given a clear and obvious advantage - more starting money, extra dice rolls, things like that. Obviously, these advantaged players won more often than not. The interesting thing is that when interviewed about the game later, they often bragged about how they won due to their EFFORTS, not because the had a good head start.
This situation reminds me of that. People who have had luck with their RNG, who have the gear they need think that it is "bad" that others, who were not so lucky, get a bit of help on the road. Because that would mean that more people get the same sets that they have "earned" through sheer dumb luck.
(Hope I don't get banned for this entry.)1 -
ThorianB✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
You like to dismiss every counter argument as "whataboutism" don't you? Did we just learn about whataboutism and it is now our favorite non-argument for everything?
1. The industry standard is for MMOs to be MORE grindy than this one currently is because they use grind as filler between content drops.
2. Your argument is that it is bad to have grind, which i disagree with. Grind is not bad. Removing grind is. The easier it is to obtain items, the faster the game gets boring.
3. Everything you stated is your opinion. Statistically speaking, the general playerbase thinks the grind is fine or they wouldn't keep playing.
4. At the end of the day your video amounts to the same argument as radiant apex mounts( Its nice to find people found something similar to complain about to replace radiant apex complaint. It's a " have not" situation followed by a " i don't want to put the effort in to require" followed by a " you should just give me participation points so i can spend those on acquiring it" which is basically the same argument used for radiant apex mounts. This all boils down to " I don't like the effort i have to put into the game to do X, so rather than just not do X and move on, i want them to change the entire game and make it easier so i don't have to put so much effort into playing"VampReworkFailed wrote: »rootkitronin wrote: »Nastassiya wrote: »It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get.
But it is easy to get... you don't need to do anything special, it's not a difficult dungeon, the only obstacle is RNG - all you need to do to get it is literally get a lucky draw, nothing more.
It has the same drop rate as any other piece of equivalent dungeon gear - none of which is based off of how useful or how popular the item is.
That's the frustration, it's just an arbitrary wall that blocks progression for some, but not all, based on luck and not skill or effort. It would be nice to actually earn the item - grinding for RNG isn't earning anything, it's just playing the lottery.
Exactly. These people such as @ThorianB PREACH about 'earning' yet RNG isn't working or earning anything. It's literally just getting lucky. Where as a token system would....actually....make you earn and work towards something if you are unlucky with RNG.
These people are literally against implementing a system that lets them earn and work towards X or Y goal without having to rely on RNG. It is absolutely. Insane.
Actually it is earning because you EARN the chance each time you kill the boss. Except as is you are earning chances to get a specific drop as opposed to earning participation points and just buying what you want. We don't have to invent a currency for that, lets just make everything in the game purchasable for gold from level 1. We can turn it into Elder Shopping Online.alberichtano wrote: »VampReworkFailed wrote: »alberichtano wrote: »It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand that a token system would actually draw so many more players to the dungeon side of the game. Turns out, most people don't like grinding dungeons because being at the mercy of RNG isn't fun!
Wild, isn't it? How people would rather /work/ and /earn/ a goal they can actually complete than play item-lottery.
This is literally the same guy who probably thinks winning the IRL lottery is considered hardwork yet gradually building savings up over time at a job isn't considered 'working'
Indeed, this is interesting. I have had this thought in my head for a little while now, reading this and similar threads.
There was a research test done somewhere (memory fails on details), where they set up a games of Monopoly on test subjects. One player was given a clear and obvious advantage - more starting money, extra dice rolls, things like that. Obviously, these advantaged players won more often than not. The interesting thing is that when interviewed about the game later, they often bragged about how they won due to their EFFORTS, not because the had a good head start.
This situation reminds me of that. People who have had luck with their RNG, who have the gear they need think that it is "bad" that others, who were not so lucky, get a bit of help on the road. Because that would mean that more people get the same sets that they have "earned" through sheer dumb luck.
(Hope I don't get banned for this entry.)
I don't care enough about having specific sets in a specific amount of time to care about RNG. I do things because they are fun. So If i need something from a dungeon i will run it when i feel like it. If i dont feel like it i won't because i can kill stuff as is.
HOWEVER, i could argue the opposite. People who don't have "good luck" always feel the need to cheat the odds. To tip the scale in there favor. The change the rules of the game so it works out for them instead of just accepting the game as it is.2 -
MaselClass RepresentativeIt doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
There's just flawed logic here.
How does participation differ from working for something for you?
If I do a dungeon 300 times and still don't have the item, haven't I worked enough? Or did I just "participate"? Is it only counted as "working for it" if the item drops for me?
I don't get it.
People keep defending a system that is meant to exploit addiction-like behavior. I hear many people saying things like "I farmed 30 runs, i cannot stop now because i already invested so much time". That is a sign of classic gambling addiction right there. If you think that a system that is based on pure chance is good for the playerbase, then you might want to rethink your attitude.
I can't wrap my head around that, i really can't.
"There is no reason we need a token system." I gave enough reasons for it in the video that many players seem to agree with, stop saying condescending things like that.PC EU
All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA2 -
MaselClass Representative
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
You like to dismiss every counter argument as "whataboutism" don't you? Did we just learn about whataboutism and it is now our favorite non-argument for everything?
1. The industry standard is for MMOs to be MORE grindy than this one currently is because they use grind as filler between content drops.
2. Your argument is that it is bad to have grind, which i disagree with. Grind is not bad. Removing grind is. The easier it is to obtain items, the faster the game gets boring.
3. Everything you stated is your opinion. Statistically speaking, the general playerbase thinks the grind is fine or they wouldn't keep playing.
4. At the end of the day your video amounts to the same argument as radiant apex mounts( Its nice to find people found something similar to complain about to replace radiant apex complaint. It's a " have not" situation followed by a " i don't want to put the effort in to require" followed by a " you should just give me participation points so i can spend those on acquiring it" which is basically the same argument used for radiant apex mounts. This all boils down to " I don't like the effort i have to put into the game to do X, so rather than just not do X and move on, i want them to change the entire game and make it easier so i don't have to put so much effort into playing"VampReworkFailed wrote: »rootkitronin wrote: »Nastassiya wrote: »It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get.
But it is easy to get... you don't need to do anything special, it's not a difficult dungeon, the only obstacle is RNG - all you need to do to get it is literally get a lucky draw, nothing more.
It has the same drop rate as any other piece of equivalent dungeon gear - none of which is based off of how useful or how popular the item is.
That's the frustration, it's just an arbitrary wall that blocks progression for some, but not all, based on luck and not skill or effort. It would be nice to actually earn the item - grinding for RNG isn't earning anything, it's just playing the lottery.
Exactly. These people such as @ThorianB PREACH about 'earning' yet RNG isn't working or earning anything. It's literally just getting lucky. Where as a token system would....actually....make you earn and work towards something if you are unlucky with RNG.
These people are literally against implementing a system that lets them earn and work towards X or Y goal without having to rely on RNG. It is absolutely. Insane.
Actually it is earning because you EARN the chance each time you kill the boss. Except as is you are earning chances to get a specific drop as opposed to earning participation points and just buying what you want. We don't have to invent a currency for that, lets just make everything in the game purchasable for gold from level 1. We can turn it into Elder Shopping Online.alberichtano wrote: »VampReworkFailed wrote: »alberichtano wrote: »It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand that a token system would actually draw so many more players to the dungeon side of the game. Turns out, most people don't like grinding dungeons because being at the mercy of RNG isn't fun!
Wild, isn't it? How people would rather /work/ and /earn/ a goal they can actually complete than play item-lottery.
This is literally the same guy who probably thinks winning the IRL lottery is considered hardwork yet gradually building savings up over time at a job isn't considered 'working'
Indeed, this is interesting. I have had this thought in my head for a little while now, reading this and similar threads.
There was a research test done somewhere (memory fails on details), where they set up a games of Monopoly on test subjects. One player was given a clear and obvious advantage - more starting money, extra dice rolls, things like that. Obviously, these advantaged players won more often than not. The interesting thing is that when interviewed about the game later, they often bragged about how they won due to their EFFORTS, not because the had a good head start.
This situation reminds me of that. People who have had luck with their RNG, who have the gear they need think that it is "bad" that others, who were not so lucky, get a bit of help on the road. Because that would mean that more people get the same sets that they have "earned" through sheer dumb luck.
(Hope I don't get banned for this entry.)
I don't care enough about having specific sets in a specific amount of time to care about RNG. I do things because they are fun. So If i need something from a dungeon i will run it when i feel like it. If i dont feel like it i won't because i can kill stuff as is.
HOWEVER, i could argue the opposite. People who don't have "good luck" always feel the need to cheat the odds. To tip the scale in there favor. The change the rules of the game so it works out for them instead of just accepting the game as it is.
If you dont care about RNG (and in turn, any part of this discussion), then what are you even doing here?
PC EU
All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA1 -
rootkitronin✭✭✭✭✭
But whether you're earning chances to get a specific drop, or earning participation points towards an item... you're literally doing the exact same thing - you're still grinding.
Actually it is earning because you EARN the chance each time you kill the boss. Except as is you are earning chances to get a specific drop as opposed to earning participation points and just buying what you want.
The only difference is that one grind has no known end point, where as the other would have a set endpoint - a sanity check for people who are getting very poor RNG.
How would that be a bad thing? Everyone still has to go through the same slog, but at least for the bottom 33% of players, there would at least be a light at the end of the tunnel.1 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
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The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
It says his opinions differ from you own and nothing else.
Honestly we don't know how many players (if any) the current system drives away. We don't know what percentage of players give up on an item because of RNG and we don't know how many players would not bother if say one weapon was 100 tokens. We are all of us making assumptions on our personal observations and biases.
And I still say if it is a grind quit doing it for a while. It is only a grind because we make it so. A player created problem not a game created problem. This is gear we want not gear we need.
I token system if correctly implemented would probably be a good thing. Problem is to be properly implemented the number of tokens required would appear daunting to some. That would be necessary to maintain some level of players repeating content. Players repeating content is an absolute must for an MMO to survive.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
MaselClass RepresentativeVampReworkFailed wrote: »alberichtano wrote: »It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand that a token system would actually draw so many more players to the dungeon side of the game. Turns out, most people don't like grinding dungeons because being at the mercy of RNG isn't fun!
Wild, isn't it? How people would rather /work/ and /earn/ a goal they can actually complete than play item-lottery.
This is literally the same guy who probably thinks winning the IRL lottery is considered hardwork yet gradually building savings up over time at a job isn't considered 'working'
The logic in those posts is just so flawed that i'm amazed...
Someone says: "I don't care"
Same person says: "i'm against it even though it doesnt concern me i want other people to keep spending 833525 hours for a single item and still not receive it"
Same person uses whataboutism by justifying the bad system in one game by worse systems in other games and then says "you like to use the term whataboutism dont you"
yeah, cause thats what you keep doing.
It's not like i'm doing this for my own personal benefit only; i think this would improve the state of the entire game if implemented well, and i have not heard a single argument against the system that isn't completely subjective or selfish.
PC EU
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alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
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The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
You like to dismiss every counter argument as "whataboutism" don't you? Did we just learn about whataboutism and it is now our favorite non-argument for everything?
1. The industry standard is for MMOs to be MORE grindy than this one currently is because they use grind as filler between content drops.
2. Your argument is that it is bad to have grind, which i disagree with. Grind is not bad. Removing grind is. The easier it is to obtain items, the faster the game gets boring.
3. Everything you stated is your opinion. Statistically speaking, the general playerbase thinks the grind is fine or they wouldn't keep playing.
4. At the end of the day your video amounts to the same argument as radiant apex mounts( Its nice to find people found something similar to complain about to replace radiant apex complaint. It's a " have not" situation followed by a " i don't want to put the effort in to require" followed by a " you should just give me participation points so i can spend those on acquiring it" which is basically the same argument used for radiant apex mounts. This all boils down to " I don't like the effort i have to put into the game to do X, so rather than just not do X and move on, i want them to change the entire game and make it easier so i don't have to put so much effort into playing"VampReworkFailed wrote: »rootkitronin wrote: »Nastassiya wrote: »It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get.
But it is easy to get... you don't need to do anything special, it's not a difficult dungeon, the only obstacle is RNG - all you need to do to get it is literally get a lucky draw, nothing more.
It has the same drop rate as any other piece of equivalent dungeon gear - none of which is based off of how useful or how popular the item is.
That's the frustration, it's just an arbitrary wall that blocks progression for some, but not all, based on luck and not skill or effort. It would be nice to actually earn the item - grinding for RNG isn't earning anything, it's just playing the lottery.
Exactly. These people such as @ThorianB PREACH about 'earning' yet RNG isn't working or earning anything. It's literally just getting lucky. Where as a token system would....actually....make you earn and work towards something if you are unlucky with RNG.
These people are literally against implementing a system that lets them earn and work towards X or Y goal without having to rely on RNG. It is absolutely. Insane.
Actually it is earning because you EARN the chance each time you kill the boss. Except as is you are earning chances to get a specific drop as opposed to earning participation points and just buying what you want. We don't have to invent a currency for that, lets just make everything in the game purchasable for gold from level 1. We can turn it into Elder Shopping Online.alberichtano wrote: »VampReworkFailed wrote: »alberichtano wrote: »It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand that a token system would actually draw so many more players to the dungeon side of the game. Turns out, most people don't like grinding dungeons because being at the mercy of RNG isn't fun!
Wild, isn't it? How people would rather /work/ and /earn/ a goal they can actually complete than play item-lottery.
This is literally the same guy who probably thinks winning the IRL lottery is considered hardwork yet gradually building savings up over time at a job isn't considered 'working'
Indeed, this is interesting. I have had this thought in my head for a little while now, reading this and similar threads.
There was a research test done somewhere (memory fails on details), where they set up a games of Monopoly on test subjects. One player was given a clear and obvious advantage - more starting money, extra dice rolls, things like that. Obviously, these advantaged players won more often than not. The interesting thing is that when interviewed about the game later, they often bragged about how they won due to their EFFORTS, not because the had a good head start.
This situation reminds me of that. People who have had luck with their RNG, who have the gear they need think that it is "bad" that others, who were not so lucky, get a bit of help on the road. Because that would mean that more people get the same sets that they have "earned" through sheer dumb luck.
(Hope I don't get banned for this entry.)
I don't care enough about having specific sets in a specific amount of time to care about RNG. I do things because they are fun. So If i need something from a dungeon i will run it when i feel like it. If i dont feel like it i won't because i can kill stuff as is.
HOWEVER, i could argue the opposite. People who don't have "good luck" always feel the need to cheat the odds. To tip the scale in there favor. The change the rules of the game so it works out for them instead of just accepting the game as it is.
What you just wrote amounts to "it is unfair that people work for money, you should only get money through gambling." Which to me is very odd indeed. How is working hard for something "cheating the odds"? Why is it worth more to get something on the first run by pure luck than getting the same thing after having done fifty or a hundred runs, but not get it through luck?1 -
MaselClass Representative
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
It says his opinions differ from you own and nothing else.
Honestly we don't know how many players (if any) the current system drives away. We don't know what percentage of players give up on an item because of RNG and we don't know how many players would not bother if say one weapon was 100 tokens. We are all of us making assumptions on our personal observations and biases.
And I still say if it is a grind quit doing it for a while. It is only a grind because we make it so. A player created problem not a game created problem. This is gear we want not gear we need.
I token system if correctly implemented would probably be a good thing. Problem is to be properly implemented the number of tokens required would appear daunting to some. That would be necessary to maintain some level of players repeating content. Players repeating content is an absolute must for an MMO to survive.
If i think his (or her, idk) opinion is based on flawed logic, I will point it out.
I stopped grinding the medusa staff weeks ago and i will never grind again until a token system is implemented; but that does not mean i stopped caring about the health of this game.
Again, as soon as someone gives me a solid argument against a simple-to-implement token system like the one i suggested I will reconsider it, but not until then.PC EU
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MaselClass Representativerootkitronin wrote: »
But whether you're earning chances to get a specific drop, or earning participation points towards an item... you're literally doing the exact same thing - you're still grinding.
Actually it is earning because you EARN the chance each time you kill the boss. Except as is you are earning chances to get a specific drop as opposed to earning participation points and just buying what you want.
The only difference is that one grind has no known end point, where as the other would have a set endpoint - a sanity check for people who are getting very poor RNG.
How would that be a bad thing? Everyone still has to go through the same slog, but at least for the bottom 33% of players, there would at least be a light at the end of the tunnel.
This 100%. This is the main reason why I made this thread and video in the first place; but people take it as "whiners want stuff immediately". I dont want to remove RNG, i dont want items be given for free; just a safety net for dedicated players. Not more, not lessEdited by Masel on 23 June 2021 00:42PC EU
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kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
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The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
It says his opinions differ from you own and nothing else.
Honestly we don't know how many players (if any) the current system drives away. We don't know what percentage of players give up on an item because of RNG and we don't know how many players would not bother if say one weapon was 100 tokens. We are all of us making assumptions on our personal observations and biases.
And I still say if it is a grind quit doing it for a while. It is only a grind because we make it so. A player created problem not a game created problem. This is gear we want not gear we need.
I token system if correctly implemented would probably be a good thing. Problem is to be properly implemented the number of tokens required would appear daunting to some. That would be necessary to maintain some level of players repeating content. Players repeating content is an absolute must for an MMO to survive.
If i think his (or her, idk) opinion is based on flawed logic, I will point it out.
I stopped grinding the medusa staff weeks ago and i will never grind again until a token system is implemented; but that does not mean i stopped caring about the health of this game.
Again, as soon as someone gives me a solid argument against a simple-to-implement token system like the one i suggested I will reconsider it, but not until then.
The solid argument is that an MMO needs players to repeat content to survive. It also needs players doing a variety of content and of course new content.
If tokens were specific to the dungeons you run that would take care of the variety of content thing some as players couldn't just run Fungal Grotto over and over for a Medusa staff. I did say tying a token to pledges would probably be the most practical way to introduce tokens if they are ever in the game. Should take a hell of a lot of tokens though. I would say at least 150% of the average runs it would take to get the piece you want. So if the average is 80 runs it should take 120 tokens.
One other comment. You compare ESO to Guild Wars 2 in your video then claim whataboutism when someone who has a differing opinion makes a comparison to other games. If you didn't want others to compare to different games you should have followed those same rules.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
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The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
It says his opinions differ from you own and nothing else.
Honestly we don't know how many players (if any) the current system drives away. We don't know what percentage of players give up on an item because of RNG and we don't know how many players would not bother if say one weapon was 100 tokens. We are all of us making assumptions on our personal observations and biases.
And I still say if it is a grind quit doing it for a while. It is only a grind because we make it so. A player created problem not a game created problem. This is gear we want not gear we need.
I token system if correctly implemented would probably be a good thing. Problem is to be properly implemented the number of tokens required would appear daunting to some. That would be necessary to maintain some level of players repeating content. Players repeating content is an absolute must for an MMO to survive.
If i think his (or her, idk) opinion is based on flawed logic, I will point it out.
I stopped grinding the medusa staff weeks ago and i will never grind again until a token system is implemented; but that does not mean i stopped caring about the health of this game.
Again, as soon as someone gives me a solid argument against a simple-to-implement token system like the one i suggested I will reconsider it, but not until then.
The solid argument is that an MMO needs players to repeat content to survive. It also needs players doing a variety of content and of course new content.
If tokens were specific to the dungeons you run that would take care of the variety of content thing some as players couldn't just run Fungal Grotto over and over for a Medusa staff. I did say tying a token to pledges would probably be the most practical way to introduce tokens if they are ever in the game. Should take a hell of a lot of tokens though. I would say at least 150% of the average runs it would take to get the piece you want. So if the average is 80 runs it should take 120 tokens.
One other comment. You compare ESO to Guild Wars 2 in your video then claim whataboutism when someone who has a differing opinion makes a comparison to other games. If you didn't want others to compare to different games you should have followed those same rules.
I wonder if you would argue the same for monster shoulders that are now easily bought for just five keys, with a good chance of getting the right kind.
There is just no reason to force players to redo content just to get certain gear. That does not amuse or entice players to come back, quite the opposite, especially if lady luck is not on their side. I wouldn't argue that the point of a game, even an MMO, is to frustrate the heck out of its players - and customers.1
This discussion has been closed.