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Why ESO needs a token system
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MaselClass Representative
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
It says his opinions differ from you own and nothing else.
Honestly we don't know how many players (if any) the current system drives away. We don't know what percentage of players give up on an item because of RNG and we don't know how many players would not bother if say one weapon was 100 tokens. We are all of us making assumptions on our personal observations and biases.
And I still say if it is a grind quit doing it for a while. It is only a grind because we make it so. A player created problem not a game created problem. This is gear we want not gear we need.
I token system if correctly implemented would probably be a good thing. Problem is to be properly implemented the number of tokens required would appear daunting to some. That would be necessary to maintain some level of players repeating content. Players repeating content is an absolute must for an MMO to survive.
If i think his (or her, idk) opinion is based on flawed logic, I will point it out.
I stopped grinding the medusa staff weeks ago and i will never grind again until a token system is implemented; but that does not mean i stopped caring about the health of this game.
Again, as soon as someone gives me a solid argument against a simple-to-implement token system like the one i suggested I will reconsider it, but not until then.
The solid argument is that an MMO needs players to repeat content to survive. It also needs players doing a variety of content and of course new content.
If tokens were specific to the dungeons you run that would take care of the variety of content thing some as players couldn't just run Fungal Grotto over and over for a Medusa staff. I did say tying a token to pledges would probably be the most practical way to introduce tokens if they are ever in the game. Should take a hell of a lot of tokens though. I would say at least 150% of the average runs it would take to get the piece you want. So if the average is 80 runs it should take 120 tokens.
One other comment. You compare ESO to Guild Wars 2 in your video then claim whataboutism when someone who has a differing opinion makes a comparison to other games. If you didn't want others to compare to different games you should have followed those same rules.
The difference in terms of the comparison to other games between us is that I used the comparison for potential improvement, so in a positive manner.
Whataboutism is generally used to deflect criticism by pointing at others that are perceived as just as bad or worse. Whataboutism is therefore always negatively connotated.
Simply put, I said: Look at them, they do it better, why don't we try to improve?
That is not whataboutism.
He said: Look at other games, they are worse, so why should we try to improve?
That is whataboutism.
The difference may seem subtle, but is very important.
The second position leads to a stale status quo, while the first one leads to constant improvement, or at least attempted improvement.Edited by Masel on 23 June 2021 01:09PC EU
All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA4 -
akredon_ESO✭✭✭✭Meh, all the people who are like "this game doesnt need a token system" can just go on and keep farming, While the rest of us i think if you invest X amount of runs into X amount of things it should = X amount of reward. There are to many situations where you are litterally left holding nothing your hands for a game. Not saying that you should get a freebie , But there needs to be a balance because there is alot of FEAST vs FAMINE in this, Balance must be obtained.1 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't actually have a horse in this race.
But I remind you all of one almost irrefutable truism about ZOS: be very careful what you ask for. If you think that a token system will enable you to access whatever "prize" you're looking for with "not RNG" time frame....
Consider the Endeavors system before you decide to buy into that.3 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »But I remind you all of one almost irrefutable truism about ZOS: be very careful what you ask for. If you think that a token system will enable you to access whatever "prize" you're looking for with "not RNG" time frame....
There is no guarantee that a ZOS token system would not be an epic grind, true. Just because you can buy your Grand Sword of Holy Prismatic Invulnerability for a mere 10 tokens does not mean that it won't take a month or two to get each token.
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Flamebait✭✭✭This is true, however you would have the singular benefit of knowing that at the end of the grind you will get the item, even if it is a long grind. Then you simply have to decide if the grind is worth it to you. As it is now you may get the item on the first run or simply never get the item at all, so this isn't a grind or work or effort it is simply playing a lottery and hoping you get lucky.2
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kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭alberichtano wrote: »
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
It says his opinions differ from you own and nothing else.
Honestly we don't know how many players (if any) the current system drives away. We don't know what percentage of players give up on an item because of RNG and we don't know how many players would not bother if say one weapon was 100 tokens. We are all of us making assumptions on our personal observations and biases.
And I still say if it is a grind quit doing it for a while. It is only a grind because we make it so. A player created problem not a game created problem. This is gear we want not gear we need.
I token system if correctly implemented would probably be a good thing. Problem is to be properly implemented the number of tokens required would appear daunting to some. That would be necessary to maintain some level of players repeating content. Players repeating content is an absolute must for an MMO to survive.
If i think his (or her, idk) opinion is based on flawed logic, I will point it out.
I stopped grinding the medusa staff weeks ago and i will never grind again until a token system is implemented; but that does not mean i stopped caring about the health of this game.
Again, as soon as someone gives me a solid argument against a simple-to-implement token system like the one i suggested I will reconsider it, but not until then.
The solid argument is that an MMO needs players to repeat content to survive. It also needs players doing a variety of content and of course new content.
If tokens were specific to the dungeons you run that would take care of the variety of content thing some as players couldn't just run Fungal Grotto over and over for a Medusa staff. I did say tying a token to pledges would probably be the most practical way to introduce tokens if they are ever in the game. Should take a hell of a lot of tokens though. I would say at least 150% of the average runs it would take to get the piece you want. So if the average is 80 runs it should take 120 tokens.
One other comment. You compare ESO to Guild Wars 2 in your video then claim whataboutism when someone who has a differing opinion makes a comparison to other games. If you didn't want others to compare to different games you should have followed those same rules.
I wonder if you would argue the same for monster shoulders that are now easily bought for just five keys, with a good chance of getting the right kind.
There is just no reason to force players to redo content just to get certain gear. That does not amuse or entice players to come back, quite the opposite, especially if lady luck is not on their side. I wouldn't argue that the point of a game, even an MMO, is to frustrate the heck out of its players - and customers.
yeah I did.
and yes there is a reason. A very important reason. An MMO will not survive more than a couple of years if players are not repeating content. It is also important that players do a variety of content. That is why skills good for PvE are locked behind PvP content and sets good for PvP are locked behind a variety of PvE content. The third thing needed for an MMO to survive is new content. All three are very important.Edited by kargen27 on 23 June 2021 02:40and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"That is not whataboutism."
Sure it is. What about Guild Wars 2...
Whatever follows positive or negative is what about....
I understand the subtle differences but still it is what about.
I usually tend to just skip posts that mention other games. This isn't another game so why bring them into it. Just say here is what I want and why.
But we are getting away from the topic on hand. For the most part I think we agree. I would prefer no tokens but if they are put in I think your suggestion is right near the top for what would work so long as the number of tokens required is high enough.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
rootkitronin✭✭✭✭✭
and yes there is a reason. A very important reason. An MMO will not survive more than a couple of years if players are not repeating content. It is also important that players do a variety of content. That is why skills good for PvE are locked behind PvP content and sets good for PvP are locked behind a variety of PvE content. The third thing needed for an MMO to survive is new content. All three are very important.
An MMO, or any game, will not survive if players aren't having fun and enjoying themselves - everything else is secondary.2 -
ThorianB✭✭✭✭✭
✭It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
There's just flawed logic here.
How does participation differ from working for something for you?
If I do a dungeon 300 times and still don't have the item, haven't I worked enough? Or did I just "participate"? Is it only counted as "working for it" if the item drops for me?
I don't get it.
People keep defending a system that is meant to exploit addiction-like behavior. I hear many people saying things like "I farmed 30 runs, i cannot stop now because i already invested so much time". That is a sign of classic gambling addiction right there. If you think that a system that is based on pure chance is good for the playerbase, then you might want to rethink your attitude.
I can't wrap my head around that, i really can't.
"There is no reason we need a token system." I gave enough reasons for it in the video that many players seem to agree with, stop saying condescending things like that.
1. Its really simple. Using a token system means i earn tokens for completing dungeons. I then spend X tokens on the item i want. I could run FG1 and get a bunch of tokens to buy gear from a harder dungeon... OR we would have to have a token for each dungeon which would just be absolutely insane. You are no longer running a specific dungeon to earn a specific piece of gear but to earn participation points that can be used on gear from many dungeons. So it really is cheating to get what you want.
2. I like how the people pushing changes are always advocating for people who didn't ask to be advocated for. I see people advocating for gamblers all the time but aren't actually gamblers. Drop chances on loot has been a staple in video games for decades. If randomized loot is a gambling trigger for someone then they should probably stay away from video games shouldn't they? Don't use people with addiction problems as your cannon fodder. Fight your own battles. And don't try to change the whole rule book because you don't want to put in the effort to play by the rules.
3. The current system is fine. It has been fine for decades. It would be a boring game for many people if you always did A and then B and always got C. You might like your games to be nice and tidy and organized and routine so that all the chips fall in place in order, but many people don't. You take the random rewards out of dungeons only lowers the interest in them.
4. You really can't stand people disagreeing with you, can you? Now i am condescending because i say there is no reason we need a token system? You might want to look up the meaning of condescending. A differ of opinion and counter argument isnt condescension, its called a debate.
5. A few people on the forums agree with you... A FEW...on the forums. If more people agreed with you there would be far far more post about it. The forums are not representative of the player base in size or type of players and their preferences. There is no evidence that players would want a token system nor that it would retain more players than the current system.
No your just twisting my words to suit your argument. I said i don't care all that much( enough to grind) about having specific sets. I went on to further clarify this by saying that i play for fun and if i need an item out of a dungeon, i will run it if i want but i am not going to grind it over and over.
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
You like to dismiss every counter argument as "whataboutism" don't you? Did we just learn about whataboutism and it is now our favorite non-argument for everything?
1. The industry standard is for MMOs to be MORE grindy than this one currently is because they use grind as filler between content drops.
2. Your argument is that it is bad to have grind, which i disagree with. Grind is not bad. Removing grind is. The easier it is to obtain items, the faster the game gets boring.
3. Everything you stated is your opinion. Statistically speaking, the general playerbase thinks the grind is fine or they wouldn't keep playing.
4. At the end of the day your video amounts to the same argument as radiant apex mounts( Its nice to find people found something similar to complain about to replace radiant apex complaint. It's a " have not" situation followed by a " i don't want to put the effort in to require" followed by a " you should just give me participation points so i can spend those on acquiring it" which is basically the same argument used for radiant apex mounts. This all boils down to " I don't like the effort i have to put into the game to do X, so rather than just not do X and move on, i want them to change the entire game and make it easier so i don't have to put so much effort into playing"VampReworkFailed wrote: »rootkitronin wrote: »Nastassiya wrote: »It's "meta" staff so it shouldn't be easy to get.
But it is easy to get... you don't need to do anything special, it's not a difficult dungeon, the only obstacle is RNG - all you need to do to get it is literally get a lucky draw, nothing more.
It has the same drop rate as any other piece of equivalent dungeon gear - none of which is based off of how useful or how popular the item is.
That's the frustration, it's just an arbitrary wall that blocks progression for some, but not all, based on luck and not skill or effort. It would be nice to actually earn the item - grinding for RNG isn't earning anything, it's just playing the lottery.
Exactly. These people such as @ThorianB PREACH about 'earning' yet RNG isn't working or earning anything. It's literally just getting lucky. Where as a token system would....actually....make you earn and work towards something if you are unlucky with RNG.
These people are literally against implementing a system that lets them earn and work towards X or Y goal without having to rely on RNG. It is absolutely. Insane.
Actually it is earning because you EARN the chance each time you kill the boss. Except as is you are earning chances to get a specific drop as opposed to earning participation points and just buying what you want. We don't have to invent a currency for that, lets just make everything in the game purchasable for gold from level 1. We can turn it into Elder Shopping Online.alberichtano wrote: »VampReworkFailed wrote: »alberichtano wrote: »It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
"That is actually .... the point?"
Are you seriously saying that the point is that some people should get frustrated, perhaps to the degree of leaving the game? Really?
"There is no reason we need a token system."
No, there is no reason YOU need a token system. And if we would get one, you could ignore it if you so wished.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand that a token system would actually draw so many more players to the dungeon side of the game. Turns out, most people don't like grinding dungeons because being at the mercy of RNG isn't fun!
Wild, isn't it? How people would rather /work/ and /earn/ a goal they can actually complete than play item-lottery.
This is literally the same guy who probably thinks winning the IRL lottery is considered hardwork yet gradually building savings up over time at a job isn't considered 'working'
Indeed, this is interesting. I have had this thought in my head for a little while now, reading this and similar threads.
There was a research test done somewhere (memory fails on details), where they set up a games of Monopoly on test subjects. One player was given a clear and obvious advantage - more starting money, extra dice rolls, things like that. Obviously, these advantaged players won more often than not. The interesting thing is that when interviewed about the game later, they often bragged about how they won due to their EFFORTS, not because the had a good head start.
This situation reminds me of that. People who have had luck with their RNG, who have the gear they need think that it is "bad" that others, who were not so lucky, get a bit of help on the road. Because that would mean that more people get the same sets that they have "earned" through sheer dumb luck.
(Hope I don't get banned for this entry.)
I don't care enough about having specific sets in a specific amount of time to care about RNG. I do things because they are fun. So If i need something from a dungeon i will run it when i feel like it. If i dont feel like it i won't because i can kill stuff as is.
HOWEVER, i could argue the opposite. People who don't have "good luck" always feel the need to cheat the odds. To tip the scale in there favor. The change the rules of the game so it works out for them instead of just accepting the game as it is.
If you dont care about RNG (and in turn, any part of this discussion), then what are you even doing here?
I care about anything that affects my gameplay and have as much right to be here and voice my opinion as you do. How did you become class rep with that attitude? Dismissive of counter arguments, does passive aggressive attacks(" youre being condescending") on people who disagree with you, twist what people say and tries to argue strawmans, and then trying to invalidate the person making the counter argument by implying they don't deserve to have an opinion or their opinion heard. Wow that last one is a great one for class rep.
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Flamebait✭✭✭1. Its really simple. Using a token system means i earn tokens for completing dungeons. I then spend X tokens on the item i want. I could run FG1 and get a bunch of tokens to buy gear from a harder dungeon... OR we would have to have a token for each dungeon which would just be absolutely insane. You are no longer running a specific dungeon to earn a specific piece of gear but to earn participation points that can be used on gear from many dungeons. So it really is cheating to get what you want.
2. I like how the people pushing changes are always advocating for people who didn't ask to be advocated for. I see people advocating for gamblers all the time but aren't actually gamblers. Drop chances on loot has been a staple in video games for decades. If randomized loot is a gambling trigger for someone then they should probably stay away from video games shouldn't they? Don't use people with addiction problems as your cannon fodder. Fight your own battles. And don't try to change the whole rule book because you don't want to put in the effort to play by the rules.
3. The current system is fine. It has been fine for decades. It would be a boring game for many people if you always did A and then B and always got C. You might like your games to be nice and tidy and organized and routine so that all the chips fall in place in order, but many people don't. You take the random rewards out of dungeons only lowers the interest in them.
4. You really can't stand people disagreeing with you, can you? Now i am condescending because i say there is no reason we need a token system? You might want to look up the meaning of condescending. A differ of opinion and counter argument isnt condescension, its called a debate.
5. A few people on the forums agree with you... A FEW...on the forums. If more people agreed with you there would be far far more post about it. The forums are not representative of the player base in size or type of players and their preferences. There is no evidence that players would want a token system nor that it would retain more players than the current system. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
Okay so I will address your points from my point of view then.
1. I agree the token should be specific to the dungeon you are running, no running FG1 for gear from scalecaller peak. I don't see how this is insane since you are saying running the dungeon 200 times for a single drop is fine but running a dungeon for tokens that you can buy the items you want eventually is not.
2. I gamble, so what does that have to do with anything? This is a video game not a casino stop defending what is becoming more and more an illegal practice because you are an addict that is scared of losing his fix.
3. The current system is not fine and no it has not been for decades, that is why most games are phasing it out because people are tired of it and it is not worth it. If the majority of the industry is stopping doing this then pretty good odds that it is a problem. As for me I have no interest in any of the dungeons in this game, haven't in a long time the only reason I do any of them is to fill spots in a sticker book and that is too much grind to bother with anymore.
5. There is literally zero work involved in this game and stop being so silly as to pretend that there is. I have run well over a hundred arx runs and seen an inferno staff drop once, it went to a guy who was leveling his first toon and that was the only time I have seen it since. This is not work this is mindless boring repetition, and it honestly makes me wonder more and more why I even bother playing this game anymore. The amount of grinding in this game is honestly worse than in many of the korean MMO's I have played and that says a lot. You seem to have a different opinion but your view on it also seems to be that running a dungeon 200+ times for a single item that may never drop simply due to complete and total luck is fun gameplay rather than a grind. Also the fact that leveling in this game takes an average of 7+ years is what I would call a grind.
You play this game while having fun with whatever you are doing, fine then why are you trying to stop other people's fun by making them grind endlessly instead of playing the game? You are the one that is actively trying to prevent anyone else from having fun because they are not playing the way you want them to, and that is what I feel makes you very much the one in the wrong in this debate.1 -
ThorianB✭✭✭✭✭
✭The logic in those posts is just so flawed that i'm amazed...
Someone says: "I don't care"
Same person says: "i'm against it even though it doesnt concern me i want other people to keep spending 833525 hours for a single item and still not receive it"
Really what this entire thread says to me is that you are bitter because you didnt get the drop you want after X amount of runs and you are frustrated and just want them to give it to you because you feel after you do X amount of runs you DESERVE it.
You are determined to incorrectly ( and passive aggressively) use words incorrectly to dismiss an argument you can't argue with logic aren't you?Same person uses whataboutism by justifying the bad system in one game by worse systems in other games and then says "you like to use the term whataboutism dont you"
It being a bad system is your opinion. It's not even a majority opinion. It's not even as popular as the whole auction house debate. But you act like the masses have spoken. You tried to convince me its a bad system and i told you it has been a gaming industry standard for decades and a majority of gamers are obviously fine with that. That is not whataboutism. That is showing you that if it were so bad and gamers hated it so much then it still wouldnt be an industry standard and there wouldn't be a lot of games out right now with a lot more grind than this one has. That is called a counterargument.
And here it is folks. Someone is frustrated because they couldn't get the drop they wanted under terms they found acceptable so instead of just accepting that they aren't willing to do what it takes to get that item, they want to change the entire game to SUIT THEM and THEIR PLAYSTYLE and then try to pass it off as if its the masses that want this change including gamblers who they are advocating for apparently.
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
It says his opinions differ from you own and nothing else.
Honestly we don't know how many players (if any) the current system drives away. We don't know what percentage of players give up on an item because of RNG and we don't know how many players would not bother if say one weapon was 100 tokens. We are all of us making assumptions on our personal observations and biases.
And I still say if it is a grind quit doing it for a while. It is only a grind because we make it so. A player created problem not a game created problem. This is gear we want not gear we need.
I token system if correctly implemented would probably be a good thing. Problem is to be properly implemented the number of tokens required would appear daunting to some. That would be necessary to maintain some level of players repeating content. Players repeating content is an absolute must for an MMO to survive.
If i think his (or her, idk) opinion is based on flawed logic, I will point it out.
I stopped grinding the medusa staff weeks ago and i will never grind again until a token system is implemented; but that does not mean i stopped caring about the health of this game.
Again, as soon as someone gives me a solid argument against a simple-to-implement token system like the one i suggested I will reconsider it, but not until then.
I will give you a solid argument against it. No one wants it. A majority of players in video games accept both of these standard features in video games:
1. There will be loot tables for items i want.
2. There will be grinding to get the items i desire the most.
If you cannot live with these two features of all games then you might want to take up a different hobby...like crochet or something where A+B always = C.
PS: You aren't stopping grinding with this system you are only changing the item the grind is for to something that is pointless and unneeded. You didn't fix the problem you changed the target.Edited by ThorianB on 23 June 2021 03:301 -
ThorianB✭✭✭✭✭
✭1. Its really simple. Using a token system means i earn tokens for completing dungeons. I then spend X tokens on the item i want. I could run FG1 and get a bunch of tokens to buy gear from a harder dungeon... OR we would have to have a token for each dungeon which would just be absolutely insane. You are no longer running a specific dungeon to earn a specific piece of gear but to earn participation points that can be used on gear from many dungeons. So it really is cheating to get what you want.
2. I like how the people pushing changes are always advocating for people who didn't ask to be advocated for. I see people advocating for gamblers all the time but aren't actually gamblers. Drop chances on loot has been a staple in video games for decades. If randomized loot is a gambling trigger for someone then they should probably stay away from video games shouldn't they? Don't use people with addiction problems as your cannon fodder. Fight your own battles. And don't try to change the whole rule book because you don't want to put in the effort to play by the rules.
3. The current system is fine. It has been fine for decades. It would be a boring game for many people if you always did A and then B and always got C. You might like your games to be nice and tidy and organized and routine so that all the chips fall in place in order, but many people don't. You take the random rewards out of dungeons only lowers the interest in them.
4. You really can't stand people disagreeing with you, can you? Now i am condescending because i say there is no reason we need a token system? You might want to look up the meaning of condescending. A differ of opinion and counter argument isnt condescension, its called a debate.
5. A few people on the forums agree with you... A FEW...on the forums. If more people agreed with you there would be far far more post about it. The forums are not representative of the player base in size or type of players and their preferences. There is no evidence that players would want a token system nor that it would retain more players than the current system. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
Okay so I will address your points from my point of view then.
1. I agree the token should be specific to the dungeon you are running, no running FG1 for gear from scalecaller peak. I don't see how this is insane since you are saying running the dungeon 200 times for a single drop is fine but running a dungeon for tokens that you can buy the items you want eventually is not.
2. I gamble, so what does that have to do with anything? This is a video game not a casino stop defending what is becoming more and more an illegal practice because you are an addict that is scared of losing his fix.
3. The current system is not fine and no it has not been for decades, that is why most games are phasing it out because people are tired of it and it is not worth it. If the majority of the industry is stopping doing this then pretty good odds that it is a problem. As for me I have no interest in any of the dungeons in this game, haven't in a long time the only reason I do any of them is to fill spots in a sticker book and that is too much grind to bother with anymore.
5. There is literally zero work involved in this game and stop being so silly as to pretend that there is. I have run well over a hundred arx runs and seen an inferno staff drop once, it went to a guy who was leveling his first toon and that was the only time I have seen it since. This is not work this is mindless boring repetition, and it honestly makes me wonder more and more why I even bother playing this game anymore. The amount of grinding in this game is honestly worse than in many of the korean MMO's I have played and that says a lot. You seem to have a different opinion but your view on it also seems to be that running a dungeon 200+ times for a single item that may never drop simply due to complete and total luck is fun gameplay rather than a grind. Also the fact that leveling in this game takes an average of 7+ years is what I would call a grind.
You play this game while having fun with whatever you are doing, fine then why are you trying to stop other people's fun by making them grind endlessly instead of playing the game? You are the one that is actively trying to prevent anyone else from having fun because they are not playing the way you want them to, and that is what I feel makes you very much the one in the wrong in this debate.
1. Because of how games work. To do it the only way that would be fair, creating a token unique to each dungeon, you would have to create dozens of new currencies and the game has to keep track of these on the server end for every player. That is an increase in load times and a decrease in performance for what i see as little to no gain.
2. First don't imply i am some gambling addict needing a fix. You are doing the same thing @Masel does and attack me instead of my argument and it's insulting. Second, loot tables and randomized loot has been the standard for decades and we have done just fine with them. They are a staple in video games that, for many players, me included, make the game more interesting. Three, don't compare using real money to "gamble" in games( loot boxes bought for real world cash) to loot tables on mob drops. That is just silly. They aren't the same thing.
3. I play a lot of games and i play a lot of new games and they are not phasing out random loot drops from killing mobs in games. I am not for sure what games you are playing but that isn't happening in any successful games i play. In fact the games that become more "simple" in acquiring items that i have played actually have been in decline rather than rising in popularity. Not saying it is due to that but it isn't doing it any favors. I don't think as many people as the handful of token advocates in this thread think are all for a system in which you earn a currency and just by whatever you want. That sounds a lot like going to work. If people like that sort of thing, there was a video game for it called "second life" because that is basically what earning currency to exchange in a token shop is... a second job in a virtual world. That doesn't sound very fun to me.
4. ( This is your #5). If there is zero work involved in this game then why is a token system needed? You don't need tokens then. The game is not broken because someone didn't get X drop in Y amount of runs. Running any content in the game over and over is player's choice. YOU choose to run that content. Why do YOU want to change the entire game, which affects me and millions of others just so its easier and less grindy for YOU and YOUR goals? Do you have any idea how selfish this argument sounds? You know what i would do?Use a different staff not try to change the whole game to suit what i wanted. I am not that selfish.
5. ( this is the unnumbered paragraph): This argument is a fallacy because no one is making them grind. They CHOSE to play the game, they CHOOSE to run that dungeon over and over again to try to get that specific item even though they had a multitude of other options. Their own dilemma and obsession is 100% their choice and they can CHOOSE to end it at any time they wish. It is selfish of them to try to change the entire game for millions of people for a problem they themselves created entirely by their own choices. The big fallacy here is you are saying that i am in the wrong because "they are not playing the way i want them too". This is an untrue statement. I am not the one trying to change something. I am trying to prevent someone else from changing it when they agreed to the game design when they started playing it. They want to change how the game is played, not me.They are ruining other peoples fun by trying to change a game that they agreed to the mechanics. So yes that makes the person very wrong in this debate, but the person that is wrong is the one suggesting we should change the rules, because it suits them and their "logic" being that because it suits them it will also suit everyone else( which is also a fallacy).Edited by ThorianB on 23 June 2021 04:161 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rootkitronin wrote: »
and yes there is a reason. A very important reason. An MMO will not survive more than a couple of years if players are not repeating content. It is also important that players do a variety of content. That is why skills good for PvE are locked behind PvP content and sets good for PvP are locked behind a variety of PvE content. The third thing needed for an MMO to survive is new content. All three are very important.
An MMO, or any game, will not survive if players aren't having fun and enjoying themselves - everything else is secondary.
Good thing the vast majority is having fun and enjoying themselves. Remember the forums represent a miniscule percentage of the entire player population. Just barely an iota of the population is represented here. And as it is human nature to speak out more when you feel something is wrong I think the game is probably doing really well in the players are happy category.
Always room for improvements but honestly the token idea is down the list quite a ways for most players.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
VixxVexx✭✭✭✭✭Good arguments @Masel.
New currency means more server load? Okay zos. But you keep adding new currencies almost every patch. Telvar, writ vouchers, crown gems, endeavors, outfit change tokens, event tickets, keys, fragments, crystals, proofs, merits, medals, etc. Could even argue undaunted plunder is currency.
I don't know if keys should be the solution though. There's a limit on how many you can get in a day.
I personally propose to just make them all tradeable. Let people make money doing PvE. No need for a token system.- People lose money on potions just running trials (even with plunder).
- Why should some sets be tradable and others not (see Sorrow vs Leviathan or Crafty vs Draugr).
- I don't care if people can buy arena weapons, let me at least make some money by running vMA for the 100th time and not gettting my 2H maul.
Edited by VixxVexx on 23 June 2021 06:292 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭MMO is all about creating a space where people can work together to reach a common goal. So assuming we would have a token system for each dung where n=1, vet=2 & hardmode=3 with a single piece or motif =10, sure, I can ask my guildmates for a help, cause three hardmode runs you could do in less then hour, even SCP.
BUT expecting that they would run with me 80 times as now? No, that won't work. And even if, there is great chance they would have the item I want, which could lead to toxic situations. So you are destined to solo or pugs - both options have nothing to do with MMO experience. It is just timefiller to hide lazyness of design, assuming that we can create a small amount of content & expect that due to RNG people would spend dozens of hours to get this one piece.
And no, Undaunted Coffers are not a solution. Once I spend 50 keys to get a medium shoulders and... I still don't have them. So yeah, even if you design an RNG, you should remember it is not "mathematical" randomness but only a simulation of randomness, and RNG will only as good as the simulator you have created and after more than 1000 hours of gameplay I have the impression that this simulator is no good...-_-2 -
zelaminator✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ippokrates wrote: »MMO is all about creating a space where people can work together to reach a common goal.
So you are destined to solo or pugs - both options have nothing to do with MMO experience.
Two questions, out of curiosity..
1 Why does mmo have to mean that you work together.?
2 Why does a pug not count as an mmo experience.? You are more than 1 player, working towards finishing the dungeon together
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Tolath✭I think that something is really broken in loot tables.
Not sure how loot is generated and based on what values but truth is that the system have serious flaws.
Flaws that are noticeable without even knowing anything regarding the code behind.
To give you any idea the last 3 months i am trying to get an Inferno Medusa Staff.
i have more than 400 runs and usually i have friends with me that trying to find the Staff for me in some runs.
So the number 400 is even a lot higher probably 500 or more.
So how many runs need to do in order to get the damn Staff?
1000? 2000?
I think that no matter how many times i will try the Inferno Staff can't drop on me because based on my specific char and specific account the input values make it impossible for the specific item to drop.
Fix the random tables or put a token system.
I have no problem with grinding overall but this thing is really frustrating and i am very close to my limits.
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Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭zelaminator wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »MMO is all about creating a space where people can work together to reach a common goal.
So you are destined to solo or pugs - both options have nothing to do with MMO experience.
Two questions, out of curiosity..
1 Why does mmo have to mean that you work together.?
2 Why does a pug not count as an mmo experience.? You are more than 1 player, working towards finishing the dungeon together
Because if I wanted to play a single game, I would choose far more immerse single player games.
Have you ever played with pugs? Most of them do not even bother with single hi or thx and are quiting a group immediately after last boss is dead. There is no difference between them & companions. Oh, sorry, sometimes my companion is better in tanking then fake tank divas ^^Edited by Ippokrates on 23 June 2021 08:101 -
MaselClass RepresentativeThe logic in those posts is just so flawed that i'm amazed...
Someone says: "I don't care"
Same person says: "i'm against it even though it doesnt concern me i want other people to keep spending 833525 hours for a single item and still not receive it"
Really what this entire thread says to me is that you are bitter because you didnt get the drop you want after X amount of runs and you are frustrated and just want them to give it to you because you feel after you do X amount of runs you DESERVE it.
You are determined to incorrectly ( and passive aggressively) use words incorrectly to dismiss an argument you can't argue with logic aren't you?Same person uses whataboutism by justifying the bad system in one game by worse systems in other games and then says "you like to use the term whataboutism dont you"
It being a bad system is your opinion. It's not even a majority opinion. It's not even as popular as the whole auction house debate. But you act like the masses have spoken. You tried to convince me its a bad system and i told you it has been a gaming industry standard for decades and a majority of gamers are obviously fine with that. That is not whataboutism. That is showing you that if it were so bad and gamers hated it so much then it still wouldnt be an industry standard and there wouldn't be a lot of games out right now with a lot more grind than this one has. That is called a counterargument.
And here it is folks. Someone is frustrated because they couldn't get the drop they wanted under terms they found acceptable so instead of just accepting that they aren't willing to do what it takes to get that item, they want to change the entire game to SUIT THEM and THEIR PLAYSTYLE and then try to pass it off as if its the masses that want this change including gamblers who they are advocating for apparently.
The ever increasing game population tells me that the balance is fine. Also ESO is light on grind to other MMORPGS i have played in the past and a cakewalk compared to Koran style MMORPGs.It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.
In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.
That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.
In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.
Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.
ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.
"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.
You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.
To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:
“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."
Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.
Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!
Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.
I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.
I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.
Again, that is whataboutism.
Just because other games are worse and new players keep coming in, that doesn't make the grind that dedicated players have to go through okay, not at all.
It's interesting that I have to keep repeating stuff I talk about in the video... says quite a lot
It says his opinions differ from you own and nothing else.
Honestly we don't know how many players (if any) the current system drives away. We don't know what percentage of players give up on an item because of RNG and we don't know how many players would not bother if say one weapon was 100 tokens. We are all of us making assumptions on our personal observations and biases.
And I still say if it is a grind quit doing it for a while. It is only a grind because we make it so. A player created problem not a game created problem. This is gear we want not gear we need.
I token system if correctly implemented would probably be a good thing. Problem is to be properly implemented the number of tokens required would appear daunting to some. That would be necessary to maintain some level of players repeating content. Players repeating content is an absolute must for an MMO to survive.
If i think his (or her, idk) opinion is based on flawed logic, I will point it out.
I stopped grinding the medusa staff weeks ago and i will never grind again until a token system is implemented; but that does not mean i stopped caring about the health of this game.
Again, as soon as someone gives me a solid argument against a simple-to-implement token system like the one i suggested I will reconsider it, but not until then.
I will give you a solid argument against it. No one wants it. A majority of players in video games accept both of these standard features in video games:
1. There will be loot tables for items i want.
2. There will be grinding to get the items i desire the most.
If you cannot live with these two features of all games then you might want to take up a different hobby...like crochet or something where A+B always = C.
PS: You aren't stopping grinding with this system you are only changing the item the grind is for to something that is pointless and unneeded. You didn't fix the problem you changed the target.
I will try to answer one more time.
" I will give you a solid argument against it. No one wants it. A majority of players in video games accept both of these standard features in video games:
1. There will be loot tables for items i want.
2. There will be grinding to get the items i desire the most. "
That is not a solid argument, but a pretty drastic claim based on your subjective view. What kind of data are you basing that on? Just going through forum threads searching for "token system", you see this topic recurring pretty often. Alongside with "Lead farms are unfair and the rng is bad" / "new motif rng is bad" etc.
Excessive RNG is something that a lot of players speak out against and rightly so. It happens pretty much everytime soemthing new comes out; that alone makes it a problem worth considering. One more time: 'm not saying that all RNG is bad, i just say that EXCESSIVE RNG through very low chances is bad design. For items with such low chances, there should be a safety net because otherwise people will inevitably be frustrated, as you can see by the current shadowfen lead outrage and many posts within this thread.
And telling me that i should get a different hobby... wow.
This will be my last reply to your post, because you don't seem to understand that my goal is not to fundamentally change the game and erase all uncertainty within it, but to reach a quality of life change for dedicated PvE players.Edited by Masel on 23 June 2021 08:15PC EU
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MaselClass Representativezelaminator wrote: »
That can very much happen.
If there is no guarantee for an event, there is a chance left that the event will not occur.
That's the beauty about excessive RNG. What you desire might just never happen, no matter how ahrd you work for it.PC EU
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MaselClass RepresentativeI think that something is really broken in loot tables.
Not sure how loot is generated and based on what values but truth is that the system have serious flaws.
Flaws that are noticeable without even knowing anything regarding the code behind.
To give you any idea the last 3 months i am trying to get an Inferno Medusa Staff.
i have more than 400 runs and usually i have friends with me that trying to find the Staff for me in some runs.
So the number 400 is even a lot higher probably 500 or more.
So how many runs need to do in order to get the damn Staff?
1000? 2000?
I think that no matter how many times i will try the Inferno Staff can't drop on me because based on my specific char and specific account the input values make it impossible for the specific item to drop.
Fix the random tables or put a token system.
I have no problem with grinding overall but this thing is really frustrating and i am very close to my limits.
From what I know, loot tables aren't broken or rigged in any way.
What you describe is just bad luck, which is the result of excessive RNG in the loot table. There is always a chance that what you desire will not happen, and the chance does not increase the longer you are at it. Every run, you start with the same tiny chance (1.28% for the final boss and 1.65% for intermediate chest) to get what you want. If you're unlucky, it just never occurs withn a timeframe to any human being can tolerate
I have an excel sheet somewhere with data back from the days when I was farming a tzogvin greatsword. I did around 200 runs of frostvault (some with friends, some with pugs), and neither did i get that greatsword, nor is my stickerbook close to being completed:
Assuming that a run in there takes around 10 minutes, that is over 33 hours of time just trying to get an item.
Honestly, i don't get how anyone can look at this system and say: "that is fine, no problem there".Edited by Masel on 23 June 2021 08:36PC EU
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zelaminator✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ippokrates wrote: »zelaminator wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »MMO is all about creating a space where people can work together to reach a common goal.
So you are destined to solo or pugs - both options have nothing to do with MMO experience.
Two questions, out of curiosity..
1 Why does mmo have to mean that you work together.?
2 Why does a pug not count as an mmo experience.? You are more than 1 player, working towards finishing the dungeon together
Because if I wanted to play a single game, I would choose far more immerse single player games.
Have you ever played with pugs? Most of them do not even bother with single hi or thx and are quiting a group immediately after last boss is dead. There is no difference between them & companions. Oh, sorry, sometimes my companion is better in tanking then fake tank divas ^^
So it's because other players don't do what you expect them to do, therefore they do not count, and then it's not a "massive multiplayer online" game to you.. fair enough.. to me it's an mmo when there are lots of players running around me, and with mezelaminator wrote: »
That can very much happen.
If there is no guarantee for an event, there is a chance left that the event will not occur.
That's the beauty about excessive RNG. What you desire might just never happen, no matter how ahrd you work for it.
How does your reply to my post have anything to do with what he said, that I replied to.. "Migth" is an entirely different thing than him saying it will never happen based upon a conspiracy like theory about him being denied a piece of loot because of his character and accountEdited by zelaminator on 23 June 2021 08:382 -
Tolath✭zelaminator wrote: »
That can very much happen.
If there is no guarantee for an event, there is a chance left that the event will not occur.
That's the beauty about excessive RNG. What you desire might just never happen, no matter how ahrd you work for it.
I am not kidding but based on statistics its nearly impossible that's the reason i believe that the loot tables are completely broken.
I don't believe that the Inferno medusa Staff have less than 1% drop rate from final boss in theory.
Problem is how you access the loot tables for the item to drop.
In the past i did grind items in games that had drop chance 0.04 and that kind of numbers without any problem.
But i am to the point that most of 50% of my game the last 3 months is doing arx and when you do so many runs that's serious bs.
Probably in 500 runs i will stop and send ticket explaining the bug but not sure if support team will understand.1 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭zelaminator wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »zelaminator wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »MMO is all about creating a space where people can work together to reach a common goal.
So you are destined to solo or pugs - both options have nothing to do with MMO experience.
Two questions, out of curiosity..
1 Why does mmo have to mean that you work together.?
2 Why does a pug not count as an mmo experience.? You are more than 1 player, working towards finishing the dungeon together
Because if I wanted to play a single game, I would choose far more immerse single player games.
Have you ever played with pugs? Most of them do not even bother with single hi or thx and are quiting a group immediately after last boss is dead. There is no difference between them & companions. Oh, sorry, sometimes my companion is better in tanking then fake tank divas ^^
So it's because other players don't do what you expect them to do, therefore they do not count, and then it's not a "massive multiplayer online" game to you.. fair enough.. to me it's an mmo when there are lots of players running around me, and with me
If by expecting a minimum courtesy in treating an another human like a human, not a bot, you see "do what i want!" XD than yes, I am not counting pugs experience as an MMO.
Because there are no social aspects of interactions and due to that (unless you are doing vet content and they start nagging^^), I could just play with a bot. What is more like mobile game experience than MMO.
2 -
Tolath✭I think that something is really broken in loot tables.
Not sure how loot is generated and based on what values but truth is that the system have serious flaws.
Flaws that are noticeable without even knowing anything regarding the code behind.
To give you any idea the last 3 months i am trying to get an Inferno Medusa Staff.
i have more than 400 runs and usually i have friends with me that trying to find the Staff for me in some runs.
So the number 400 is even a lot higher probably 500 or more.
So how many runs need to do in order to get the damn Staff?
1000? 2000?
I think that no matter how many times i will try the Inferno Staff can't drop on me because based on my specific char and specific account the input values make it impossible for the specific item to drop.
Fix the random tables or put a token system.
I have no problem with grinding overall but this thing is really frustrating and i am very close to my limits.
From what I know, loot tables aren't broken or rigged in any way.
What you describe is just bad luck, which is the result of excessive RNG in the loot table. There is always a chance that what you desire will not happen, and the chance does not increase the longer you are at it. Every run, you start with the same tiny chance (1.28% for the final boss and 1.65% for intermediate chest) to get what you want. If you're unlucky, it just never occurs withn a timeframe to any human being can tolerate
I have an excel sheet somewhere with data back from the days when I was farming a tzogvin greatsword. I did around 200 runs of frostvault (some with friends, some with pugs), and neither did i get that greatsword, nor is my stickerbook close to being completed:
Assuming that a run in there takes around 10 minutes, that is over 33 hours of time just trying to get an item.
Honestly, i don't get how anyone can look at this system and say: "that is fine, no problem there".
Sorry but there is no such thing as bad luck.
Also there is no such thing as random in any computer program
We emulate random based on specific values ( we made it appear random but its never is really random)
Guess what is the missing Item
It took me around 200 runs to collect any other item that drops in the setup that's statistically correct
When i say i ran more than 400 arx i am not joking
Edited by Tolath on 23 June 2021 09:060 -
zelaminator✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ippokrates wrote: »zelaminator wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »MMO is all about creating a space where people can work together to reach a common goal.
So you are destined to solo or pugs - both options have nothing to do with MMO experience.
Two questions, out of curiosity..
1 Why does mmo have to mean that you work together.?
2 Why does a pug not count as an mmo experience.? You are more than 1 player, working towards finishing the dungeon together
Because if I wanted to play a single game, I would choose far more immerse single player games.
Have you ever played with pugs? Most of them do not even bother with single hi or thx and are quiting a group immediately after last boss is dead. There is no difference between them & companions. Oh, sorry, sometimes my companion is better in tanking then fake tank divas ^^
So it's because other players don't so what you expect them to do, therefore they do not count, and then it's not a "massive multiplayer onlIppokrates wrote: »zelaminator wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »zelaminator wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »MMO is all about creating a space where people can work together to reach a common goal.
So you are destined to solo or pugs - both options have nothing to do with MMO experience.
Two questions, out of curiosity..
1 Why does mmo have to mean that you work together.?
2 Why does a pug not count as an mmo experience.? You are more than 1 player, working towards finishing the dungeon together
Because if I wanted to play a single game, I would choose far more immerse single player games.
Have you ever played with pugs? Most of them do not even bother with single hi or thx and are quiting a group immediately after last boss is dead. There is no difference between them & companions. Oh, sorry, sometimes my companion is better in tanking then fake tank divas ^^
So it's because other players don't do what you expect them to do, therefore they do not count, and then it's not a "massive multiplayer online" game to you.. fair enough.. to me it's an mmo when there are lots of players running around me, and with me
If by expecting a minimum courtesy in treating an another human like a human, not a bot, you see "do what i want!" XD than yes, I am not counting pugs experience as an MMO.
Because there are no social aspects of interactions and due to that (unless you are doing vet content and they start nagging^^), I could just play with a bot. What is more like mobile game experience than MMO.
Fair enough, as I said I was just curious
I 100% agree with you in that more socializing in pugs would be nice.. it's still an mmo to me, but I also try to do dungeons with friends when I can.. my pug experience is probably 2-3 runs a day at most 1 -
Paulytnz✭✭✭✭✭Watched the video - seems like a valid argument/suggestion to me. Then again I come from GW2 and as stated in the video - they have this system in place.
Please support my Quality of Life Suggestions here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/578316/qol-suggestions#latest1 -
FluffWit✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I ran one dungeon like 10 times to get a drop 4 years ago and said "never again!"
Now I just build around whatever I can do with overland and crafted sets.
Another easy option would be to add dungeon weapons to the Goldens loot table. You've already decided it's ok to buy the jewelery that way not the weapons too?1
This discussion has been closed.