Opinion: The Revealed Crown Gems for Radiants Amounts Are Fair

trackdemon5512 · March 2021

So with the new crown crate season we see the developers actually allowing for Radiant Apex Mounts to be acquired via Crown Gem exchange. We now know those amounts to start at 1200 Gems and max at 2500 Gems depending on the mount. Some may find such numbers outlandish, especially considering other premium Crown Gem only mounts were offered for 600 Crown Gems. However I'm of the mind that this currency exchange valuation is more than fair.

I'm of a type of player that has an excessive amount of gold, doesn't run a trader guild, and is on the PS4. As such that combination of factors means a lot of players are willing to fairly gift me crown crates. Out of boredom I've made it a point to try and get all 3 Radiant Apex Mounts during certain seasons. I can say I easily spent 20 million gold plus in crate exchanges to get those mounts each time. RNG is a fickle mistress.

That said these are vanity items and they are in no way pay-to-win. You don't have to get a radiant and there are thousand upon thousand of games out there that have rewards like this. So in my opinion arguing about if it's even fair to have these things is a moot point.

Considering that on average it would take between 150 and 250 crown crates to get a Radiant Apex Mount with their drop rates, a player would tend to amass an insane amount of crown gems if going for more than one or a specific one. In fact that amount easily falls into a range about or greater than 2500 gems. This effectively puts a cap on endless crate farming and the incessant customer service calls about bad RNG and that "I deserve a radiant for all I put in".

The amounts aren't too outlandish but they do emphasize that these are rare and that not everyone is guaranteed to get one. And if you save up enough crown gems over time you can be discerning and get a radiant you want. Those that get one can feel lucky that they did and prideful that a vanity item isn't really a dime a dozen. To me that's fair.

Prof_Bawbag · March 2021

Nope. "Fair" would be allowing the player to know exactly how much any given item is in their local currency. I wouldn't mind a mount being priced at £200 because the price is laid out in front of you. Would I buy a £200 mount? Hell no, but the price is laid out for those who would wish to buy it. "Gem" pricing still an outright money gouging tactic.

Seraphayel · March 2021

[snip] ESO is still an MMORPG that has a subscription going. It’s not pay to win and it’s just fluff, but even in that regard these prices are mind-boggling.

1200 gems for the Wolf is a fair price in my opinion, although that’s already quite overpriced.

2500 gems for the Senche is not fair, it’s ridiculous. To get this amount of gems you have to spend $600-800 and be lucky with duplicates. If you’re not lucky with duplicates, we’re looking at a price beyond $1000 which is just insanity for a simple mount in an MMORPG.

I‘m not saying that nobody will go out and spend this amount of money on these mounts, [snip] I even think - with these price points - having them only as a tiny drop chance is better than making them buyable. Because now you have people that will waste hundreds, thousands of dollars to have enough gems to buy one of these mounts - a tiny random percentage was maybe a limiting factor, but now you can actually buy them for money. [snip]

[edited for baiting/bashing]

Prof_Bawbag · March 2021

Seraphayel wrote: »

[snip] ESO is still an MMORPG that has a subscription going. It’s not pay to win and it’s just fluff, but even in that regard these prices are mind-boggling.

1200 gems for the Wolf is a fair price in my opinion, although that’s already quite overpriced.

2500 gems for the Senche is not fair, it’s ridiculous. To get this amount of gems you have to spend $600-800 and be lucky with duplicates. If you’re not lucky with duplicates, we’re looking at a price beyond $1000 which is just insanity for a simple mount in an MMORPG.

I‘m not saying that nobody will go out and spend this amount of money on these mounts, [snip] I even think - with these price points - having them only as a tiny drop chance is better than making them buyable. Because now you have people that will waste hundreds, thousands of dollars to have enough gems to buy one of these mounts - a tiny random percentage was maybe a limiting factor, but now you can actually buy them for money. [snip]

Yup, ZoS don't even need to come out and justify their practices. They have paying customers that do it for them.

trackdemon5512 · March 2021

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Nope. "Fair" would be allowing the player to know exactly how much any given item is in their local currency. I wouldn't mind a mount being priced at £200 because the price is laid out in front of you. Would I buy a £200 mount? Hell no, but the price is laid out for those who would wish to buy it. "Gem" pricing still an outright money gouging tactic.

It's a lottery/game of chance. There is no actual value and it's impossible to assign one. You can spend $500 on 200 crates or buy 1 crate and you still have the same chances of getting the same items. This just effectively caps it after a point so it's not endless.

Prof_Bawbag · March 2021

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Nope. "Fair" would be allowing the player to know exactly how much any given item is in their local currency. I wouldn't mind a mount being priced at £200 because the price is laid out in front of you. Would I buy a £200 mount? Hell no, but the price is laid out for those who would wish to buy it. "Gem" pricing still an outright money gouging tactic.

It's a lottery/game of chance. There is no actual value and it's impossible to assign one. You can spend $500 on 200 crates or buy 1 crate and you still have the same chances of getting the same items. This just effectively caps it after a point so it's not endless.

I know exactly what it is. It's just a scummy practice. People complain about the pricing in other games. For example, £50 for 1 tank, or £70 for an inane plane, but at least the buyer knows exactly what is required. We bought an rpg, not a gambling simulator that pays out fresh air.

Like i said, I have no issue with what they price stuff at. I have an issue with how they implement some of their pricing. As things stand, here in the UK that 2500 gem mount could cost you between £3.99 or £1000. That's **** up.

hexnotic · March 2021

lol and here i was hoping the radiants would be 600 gems like some of the mounts they put up from time to time. big rip!

INe_Saninus · March 2021

...I think they missed the mark with this pricing.

Instead of being excited that I could acquire an apex of my choosing, I pondered whether I would be embarrassed riding around town.

Before, a person could have just got lucky or they could have spent a lot of money.
...and while that's still true, if I see that senche out in the wild I'm going to think "sucker".

Full disclosure: I might still get it.
...but I don't know.
Going to have to think about that one for a while.
You want your mount to be flashy and unique.
....but do I want my mount to say I make bad decisions?!

B0SSzombie · March 2021

I wouldn't ever buy one, but it's good they have the option.

Now I'm curious, if they do this with Older Crates, which of the Radiants I've gotten would be the "most valuable."

trackdemon5512 · March 2021

INe_Saninus wrote: »

...I think they missed the mark with this pricing.

Instead of being excited that I could acquire an apex of my choosing, I pondered whether I would be embarrassed riding around town.

Before, a person could have just got lucky or they could have spent a lot of money.
...and while that's still true, if I see that senche out in the wild I'm going to think "sucker".

Full disclosure: I might still get it.
...but I don't know.
Going to have to think about that one for a while.
You want your mount to be flashy and unique.
....but do I want my mount to say I make bad decisions?!

And that debate is the thing. I either save up crown gems and get a radiant apex I really want in the future or this season, or I really press into crates for a single season trying to get what I want. It's all vanity, totally optional, not play to win. Those that complain about gatcha mechanics well that is another argument all together. Within this system I think its all good.

furiouslog · March 2021

What crossed my mind when I saw the prices was whether or not the gem price was directly tied to the individual mount drop rates, or if they were scaled based on perceived market value.

Trevore · March 2021

Why do the gem prices even vary in the first place? Don't all of the radiant apex mounts have the same odds? I just don't get why one is fair but the other is extremely high.

trackdemon5512 · March 2021

furiouslog wrote: »

What crossed my mind when I saw the prices was whether or not the gem price was directly tied to the individual mount drop rates, or if they were scaled based on perceived market value.

I believe it has been shown in another recent forum post that there are indeed unique drop rates per radiant mount, with some being rarer than others. This would confirm that the Apex mounts have set drop rate chance and the Radiants have significantly smaller. It would be interesting if someone could compute, based upon chances of the various drops if the crown gem prices are direct correlations of a 1-to-X chance.

Girl_Number8 · March 2021

Fair would be in the crown store, not hidden behind carnival loot crates....

There is not a guaranteed set gem quantity to each crate. Gambling is gambling, if they wanted fair it would be in the crown store at a set price.

Orion_89 · March 2021

In my opinion, 1200 gems is fair. Even 1600 is still ok. But 2500 is to much.
Why not to make the gap like 200 gems? 1200-1400-1600 for example? Or 800-1200-1600?

trackdemon5512 · March 2021

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Fair would be in the crown store, not hidden behind carnival loot crates....

There is not a guaranteed set gem quantity to each crate. Gambling is gambling, if they wanted fair it would be in the crown store at a set price.

Again, I'm arguing that within the system of crown crates, in which you knowingly pay for crowns, exchange them for crates or whatever, that this is fair.

Issues with concepts of gambling versus straight purchases aren't being argued here. Gatcha concepts are their own huge problem.

But if you willing choose to engage in this system, then the exchange rate of gems to mounts seems fair given their rarity.

Starlock · March 2021

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

[snip] ESO is still an MMORPG that has a subscription going. It’s not pay to win and it’s just fluff, but even in that regard these prices are mind-boggling.

1200 gems for the Wolf is a fair price in my opinion, although that’s already quite overpriced.

2500 gems for the Senche is not fair, it’s ridiculous. To get this amount of gems you have to spend $600-800 and be lucky with duplicates. If you’re not lucky with duplicates, we’re looking at a price beyond $1000 which is just insanity for a simple mount in an MMORPG.

I‘m not saying that nobody will go out and spend this amount of money on these mounts, [snip] I even think - with these price points - having them only as a tiny drop chance is better than making them buyable. Because now you have people that will waste hundreds, thousands of dollars to have enough gems to buy one of these mounts - a tiny random percentage was maybe a limiting factor, but now you can actually buy them for money. [snip]

Yup, ZoS don't even need to come out and justify their practices. They have paying customers that do it for them.

And those who call it out for what it is get the [snip]. The gambling is by far the most problematic form of video game monetization because of how human psychology works, especially gambling addiction. Addiction isn't a matter of self-control, or just remembering "but it's optional!" Some customers have and will continue to spend beyond their means to obtain these rewards. There's a word for that. It's [snip] monetization. Which we apparently aren't allowed to call like it is around here, probably because the industry [snip]. *rolls eyes*

Girl_Number8 · March 2021

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Fair would be in the crown store, not hidden behind carnival loot crates....

There is not a guaranteed set gem quantity to each crate. Gambling is gambling, if they wanted fair it would be in the crown store at a set price.

Again, I'm arguing that within the system of crown crates, in which you knowingly pay for crowns, exchange them for crates or whatever, that this is fair.

Issues with concepts of gambling versus straight purchases aren't being argued here. Gatcha concepts are their own huge problem.

But if you willing choose to engage in this system, then the exchange rate of gems to mounts seems fair given their rarity.

I am not arguing and digital created content that is just really mostly a reskin is not rare....to create

Gambling crates are not a very good business practice for the players bluntly put. They should be removed, ZOS was more then fine when they just had crown store items.

Danikat · March 2021

furiouslog wrote: »

What crossed my mind when I saw the prices was whether or not the gem price was directly tied to the individual mount drop rates, or if they were scaled based on perceived market value.

I think it's both. I suspect the drop rates from the crates are also weighted based on perceived market value, or popularity.

It's been a long time since I looked into crown crate drops rates in any detail but I suspect the same is true within other categories of items: the ones ZOS knows players are more likely to want are harder to get because then people will buy more crates trying to get them.

rrimöykk · March 2021

Knew it's gonna be 1200 min. That's the price they used to sell radiant ones directly to players.

2500 ia absurd but doesn't bother me as I'd never spent that much on a mount. It looks decent, yeah but I prefer the wolf.

Fischblut · March 2021

...I think they missed the mark with this pricing.

Instead of being excited that I could acquire an apex of my choosing, I pondered whether I would be embarrassed riding around town.

Before, a person could have just got lucky or they could have spent a lot of money.
...and while that's still true, if I see that senche out in the wild I'm going to think "sucker".

I think they did very nice with this pricing

I hope old seasons will not have buyable radiants. But I will not be angry if developers keep this "kind of Radiant" mount model and prices for all new seasons from now.
Iron Atronach mounts should be hot. Well, they better be hot, cause it's been long time since I saw a truly well-done Radiant Apex mount

This season is very nice compromise between having RNG-only mounts, and having some valuable enough mounts. Radiants lost big part of their "prestige" in this season without doubt, cause there will be much more people riding these in the game than it was in any previous season.

As for 2500 gem Senche, somebody could have gotten that Senche from just 1 crate, or from few hundreds of crates (either by RNG, or with gems at that point). If somebody makes showcase video of that senche, and it will have super awesome effects when roaring + super awesome trail when riding, I will not be embarrased to ride that mount

What crossed my mind when I saw the prices was whether or not the gem price was directly tied to the individual mount drop rates, or if they were scaled based on perceived market value.

In my opinion, prices are like this because:

1) this Senche is really glowy and bright, summoning effect is very large and shiny as well. It reminds me of Solar Horse from Dragonscale crates. The glow and effect of that horse was legendary

2) the Courser is in medium price range... Maybe only because of it's rearing up effect (on promo pictures we can see glass shattering around the horse as it rears up). Summoning animation and overall look of the horse are the least impressive in current season, for my taste.

3) the Wolf has awesome summoning effect, but not impressive howl and trail. It's the most generously priced mount, it really got me surprised. With such price, people can afford at least something rare from this season. No wonder that it's the first Radiant to get showcase video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kABKzusDXuA

Vlad9425 · March 2021

There’s nothing “fair” about it. These prices are absolutely absurd and predatory. Not only are these still locked behind RNG loot gambling crates but now they are actually trying to incentivise people to buy multiple bundles of crown crates to build up a ridiculous amount of gems to get these mounts.

Also to the 0.01% of the community that can spend 20 million gold gifting crates my question is why on earth would you even do that for some reskinned mount in the 1st place?

INe_Saninus · March 2021

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Fair would be in the crown store, not hidden behind carnival loot crates....

There is not a guaranteed set gem quantity to each crate. Gambling is gambling, if they wanted fair it would be in the crown store at a set price.

Again, I'm arguing that within the system of crown crates, in which you knowingly pay for crowns, exchange them for crates or whatever, that this is fair.

Issues with concepts of gambling versus straight purchases aren't being argued here. Gatcha concepts are their own huge problem.

But if you willing choose to engage in this system, then the exchange rate of gems to mounts seems fair given their rarity.

It changes the perception though.

And while I realize that perception is subjective, if it's changed it for me I have to assume it's changed for others as well.

You're correct. The gem price is probably fair in a "chance vs money spent on crates ratio".

...but knowing how rare radiant apex drops are, I'm never going to see one of these in-game and think "man, that guy got lucky".
I'm going to think "yikes, that's a lot of money spent to make me think "yikes".

I've spent more money in this game than I care to admit.
I do it within my means. I have rules that I follow in order not to get too sucked in.
I realize the crates are predatory in nature.
...but this just puts a magnifying glass on that issue.

It just feels different now.

...and now I'm asking myself if I want to contribute to that system?

It had the opposite effect on me that I think was intended.
Now I'll just feel silly riding around on a ridiculously overpriced mount instead of feeling cool.
I'll be embarrassed at my poor decisions.

Who knows though... that's all an opinion.
I might buy it tomorrow. Lmao

Do what's best for you.

DarcyMardin · March 2021

Fair?? LMAO. You spend money to get crowns, then spend crowns to gamble on crates, get a lot of useless stuff, which you turn into yet another form of currency, gems (by now most people have lost track of how much real money is involved, which is of course exactly what ZOS wants). Then you collect these gems to save up (by gambling on more crates) to get the one “my precious” digital item that you weren’t lucky enough to get out of one of those many useless crates you bought.

Why anybody indulges in the silly and wasteful practice of playing the Game of Crates is beyond me. Unless you’re rich, winter is coming for your bank account.

heaven13 · March 2021

If they're going to sell them for gems, pick a standard price like with other categories. After all, a horse apex costs 400 gems, as does a senche. Absolutely no reason that they should have different prices.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2021

Has there ever been a Bear Radiant? If not, dont really care.

Oh yeah, crates are a scam, gems are just gambling disguised as a currency, and these prices are absolutely ridiculous. I havent bought a crate or spent a gem in years.

Scardan · March 2021

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

So with the new crown crate season we see the developers actually allowing for Radiant Apex Mounts to be acquired via Crown Gem exchange. We now know those amounts to start at 1200 Gems and max at 2500 Gems depending on the mount. Some may find such numbers outlandish, especially considering other premium Crown Gem only mounts were offered for 600 Crown Gems. However I'm of the mind that this currency exchange valuation is more than fair.

Fair compared to what?

If you mean that the item is not overpriced compared to something else in a world, well, I have opposite opinion. Let me do the math. Senche costs 2500. I got 150 gems from 15 crates. 10 gems from a crate. I need 250 crates to get Senche. 15 crates cost 5k crowns, 5k crowns cost ca 30 euros. I need ca 17 purchases, so its 510 euros.

For 500 euros I can buy myself beautiful golden ring in real life, which will probably increase in price over time, because its gold. And what is Senche? 3D model with nice special effect which will be not my real property. I think it is overpriced for being just a 3D model with nice effect in game I do not own.

Seraphayel · March 2021

Trevore wrote: »

Why do the gem prices even vary in the first place? Don't all of the radiant apex mounts have the same odds? I just don't get why one is fair but the other is extremely high.

I guess the reason is quite obvious: Senches are the favorite mount type of most players. They’re the type of mount that is bought the most for gems. So the most popular mount type is the one with the highest price tag.

Araneae6537 · March 2021

INe_Saninus wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Fair would be in the crown store, not hidden behind carnival loot crates....

There is not a guaranteed set gem quantity to each crate. Gambling is gambling, if they wanted fair it would be in the crown store at a set price.

Again, I'm arguing that within the system of crown crates, in which you knowingly pay for crowns, exchange them for crates or whatever, that this is fair.

Issues with concepts of gambling versus straight purchases aren't being argued here. Gatcha concepts are their own huge problem.

But if you willing choose to engage in this system, then the exchange rate of gems to mounts seems fair given their rarity.

It changes the perception though.

And while I realize that perception is subjective, if it's changed it for me I have to assume it's changed for others as well.

You're correct. The gem price is probably fair in a "chance vs money spent on crates ratio".

...but knowing how rare radiant apex drops are, I'm never going to see one of these in-game and think "man, that guy got lucky".
I'm going to think "yikes, that's a lot of money spent to make me think "yikes".

I've spent more money in this game than I care to admit.
I do it within my means. I have rules that I follow in order not to get too sucked in.
I realize the crates are predatory in nature.
...but this just puts a magnifying glass on that issue.

It just feels different now.

...and now I'm asking myself if I want to contribute to that system?

It had the opposite effect on me that I think was intended.
Now I'll just feel silly riding around on a ridiculously overpriced mount instead of feeling cool.
I'll be embarrassed at my poor decisions.

Who knows though... that's all an opinion.
I might buy it tomorrow. Lmao

Do what's best for you.

That really doesn’t make any sense. You might have gotten lucky or your might have spent a fortune — that was true before and is true now, the only difference is that you are assured of getting the mount you want if you spend enough, whereas before, you spend endless money and never get it.

All those calling it unfair and predatory truly baffle me. Yes, of course I wish that everything were available for direct purchase or even in game or more of both, but at least there is a way now for people to get what they want, if they wish to spend that much, and the return of Gems per 15 crates is fairly consistent especially after the first batch. Of course it varies, but no one’s getting tricked into anything.

It is more than I can or will spend, but I prioritize what I want within what I can afford. Usually that has meant bypassing Crown crates entirely but this season I finally bought several — got some things I like and Gems for future things I may love from a season I may not. Again, I’m not a fan of things only being available through Crown crates, but no reason to hyperbolize about it but just make the decision best for you.

Lady_Galadhiel · March 2021

Seraphayel wrote: »

1200 gems for the Wolf is a fair price in my opinion, although that’s already quite overpriced.

2500 gems for the Senche is not fair, it’s ridiculous.

[edited for baiting/bashing]

Exactly this.

Starlock · March 2021

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Fair?? LMAO. You spend money to get crowns, then spend crowns to gamble on crates, get a lot of useless stuff, and turn into yet another form of currency, gems (by now most people have lost track of how much real money is involved, which is of course exactly what ZOS wants). Then you collect these gems to save up (by gambling on more crates) to get the one “my precious” digital item that you weren’t lucky enough to get out of one of those many useless crates you bought.

Why anybody indulges in the silly and wasteful practice of playing the Game of Crates is beyond me. Unless you’re rich, winter is coming for your bank account.

Because addiction, right? It's real thing and it hurts those who suffer from it. I don't have a problem with gambling addiction myself, but I know people who do. For them, it's not a matter of them "indulging" it; they want to quit, but it's not that simple. Addiction never is, regardless of the form it takes. It used to be that gambling addicts could use a hobby like video games as an escape from the casino to help manage their addiction. But certain groups in the video games industry decided to bring the casino to living rooms over the past decade. This has done a lot of harm to customers and these groups have profited immensely. Worse, this gambling is largely unregulated and the groups doing this by and large actively resist much needed regulation.

Charing obscene amounts of money (gems) for radiant apex mounts is not a solution to the problem of unregulated gambling in video games. It's a marginal improvement for some, a dangerous hook for others. Just a few more spins and you'll have enough gems for that mount. Or maybe just a few more spins and you'll be the lucky one. Just a few more spins...

I can point victims of gambling addiction towards some places for help. I wish I could do the same for the video game industry so they knock it off with this crap.