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is Teso pay to win game?
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭furiouslog wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »A friend considers the content pay wall a form of pay to win. His argument is that if gear that is needed because it is meta or BIS is hidden behind a pay wall then it is by definition pay to win. He adds that there are also meta classes behind the pay wall.
You don't need to follow the meta or have BIS gear to complete content. ESO is surprisingly forgiving in that regard. That's especially true in PVP. Player skill counts for a lot more than slapping on the latest meta gear or rolling the latest meta class. Also, if you are willing to be patient for an ESO+ free trial, you can grind out all the BOP gear you need from any DLC.
Yes, but given two players of equal skill, if one has access to purchasable gear or a class with a paywall that will provide an edge over the other, then that fits the definition.
I think that the drastic differences in pricing for tradeable gear is also evidence that needs to be considered - some things are vastly more expensive than others because the advantage the gear provides relative to its rarity in game creates a large enough demand that it can sustain those prices. If what you said was true, then the pricing distribution for tradeable gear would be much flatter. If there were cheap alternatives that were close to what was available at high prices, the prices would come down.
Some of the market is influenced by what is pushed out as meta, which is essentially a marketing campaign for gear, but plenty of examples exist of other gear sets that don't have that kind of support yet still command crazy prices. It could be a bubble, but it could also be an actual problem of imbalance or accessibility, at which point it's technically P2W since gold can indirectly be acquired for money.
For the record, I don't think that any P2W is ESO's deliberate intention, I think it just ends up functionally being that way because these issues exist.
Fair warning, this turned out a bit more meandering than I'd hoped.
Most of the expensive tradeable gear (excluding stickerbook stuff) is typically the BOE sets that are competitive with BOP trial gear or at least reasonable alternatives to the meta. Obviously, you probably want the meta/BIS for, say, scorepushing the latest vet trial, but that's not typically something you would do if you have a great abhorrence for buying paywalled content. Hence the "you can complete the content you own" with non-exclusive meta/BIS items/classes.
So I really don't understand how you think tradeable gear is technically pay-to-win in any way. If all you own is the base game, you can buy all tradeable and craftable gear for in game gold, which can be easily obtained by all manner of in-game content with absolutely no need for "indirectly acquiring gold with real money."
If anything, ESO is the opposite, allowing players to indirectly acquire crown store items with in-game gold obtained purely from base game activities. That's not a paywall. The only (temporary) paywall is the yearly Chapter.
And I do tend to think that granting "any gameplay advantage" is a gross overstatement of Pay-to-win, no matter what Wikipedia says.
Because if I thought that, then yes, Wardens, Necromancers, Jewelry Crafting, Psijic Order, and Antiquities were or are all pay-to-win. Any Chapter exclusive is pay-to-win as long as its exclusive! Congrats, ESO is a pay-to-win game!
If that's your opinion, I can understand that conclusion. I just don't agree. My thought are more like: What are you "winning" that a skilled player can't win without that item?
My answer is "nothing, skilled players can complete all the content they own/compete in PVP without the item. Obviously you didn't need the new chapter exclusive to complete previous content (though what a meta-following guild tells you might be another story.) And yes, players without the Chapter exclusive stuff can still be competitive in PVP (though what the forums tell you, again, may be another story.)
If I really dig into something I'd consider pay-to-win:
ESO is at its most pay-to-win when we consider legitimately unbalanced Chapter exclusives. Even there, ESO gives players who bought the Chapter for its exclusive gear, class or feature at best a fleeting advantage until the thing gets nerfed (example: Thrassians, Wardens, 8 Necros in a trial) or the Chapter becomes available for in-game gold a year later. Now, unless we assume that's a deliberate marketing tactic, that's not intentional Pay-to-win game design. (Someone who does assume this is intentional may well disagree with me on that point, and I can see their side of it.)
With all that in mind, I'd be a lot happier if Chapters weren't cash-only, as I've argued since Morrowind launched. I think that would really take ESO out of any pay-to-win territory completely, even for the "but any paywall is pay-to-win" crowd.1 -
Wolf81✭✭✭Nah not really at all..though I would argue if you want to be a top tier home decorator it might be.1 -
JimmyJuJu✭✭✭✭Introduction of mythic items behind a pay-wall really pushes the envelope but I wouldn't go so far as saying ESO is pay-to-win.
Pay-to-win would be paying crowns to acquire Volendrung, for example.1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭By the FPS definition of Pay To Win where you purchase items that make you more powerful, No eso is not pay to win.
By the MMORPG definition to Pay To Win where "winning" is more defined by how people perceive your character in game as far as mount, style, armor, weapon aesthetics, pets, houses etc, then yes ESO is straight up pay to win.
....in before "you can exchange gold for crowns".
1. This has not always been the case.
2. There is no safe, guaranteed method of exchanging gold for crowns. Its a gamble every time someone does it and not worth the risk.
And yes, paying for a clear is pay to win. You are obtaining items like skins, polymorphs and in fact GEAR that does make you stronger (trial gear is often the BIS in game), all in an exchange for gold and if that gold is made by selling crowns, then its 100% pay to win. You are paying to be stronger.
Edited by Raideen on 10 December 2020 21:342 -
furiouslog✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Most of the expensive tradeable gear (excluding stickerbook stuff) is typically the BOE sets that are competitive with BOP trial gear or at least reasonable alternatives to the meta. Obviously, you probably want the meta/BIS for, say, scorepushing the latest vet trial, but that's not typically something you would do if you have a great abhorrence for buying paywalled content. Hence the "you can complete the content you own" with non-exclusive meta/BIS items/classes.
So I really don't understand how you think tradeable gear is technically pay-to-win in any way. If all you own is the base game, you can buy all tradeable and craftable gear for in game gold, which can be easily obtained by all manner of in-game content with absolutely no need for "indirectly acquiring gold with real money."
Most P2W games have the possibility of getting the gear in game. These tend to be characterized by the presence of in-game barriers (e.g. extremely low probability of acquisition) that are technically too onerous, so paying becomes the preferred alternative given the time investment.
Earlier, I provided the example of the heavy weight Syvarra's Scales set. This can be acquired by playing the game. First, you need to buy the TG DLC. Then you need to level the skill tree up. Then you need to do heists where the probability of getting the heavies to drop is extremely low (if it's a straight drop, it's about a 1.5% chance, if structured within aggregates as has been done in other loot tables, it could be as low as 0.3%). So, the expected number of times I'd need to run those heists to have a decent probability of getting the 5 pieces I'd need is in the hundreds, at about 10 minutes per heist. It could conceivably be a year before I get the pieces I need, plus the time to get the skill line, plus the crowns to buy the DLC, plus the time to do the heists. So I choose to buy with in game gold.
Estimates of the farming benefit available from youtube videos and reported on this forum is that rates of about 50-100K per hour are achievable for a typical player. For 5 pieces of the heavy Syvarra's, current pricing is at about 2-2.5M for the set. Assuming you get a bargain on your pricing, for which you will have to wait, and assuming that you do the average for farming, that's about 27 hours of farming. Or, you could trade about 8000 crowns for gold (roughly $50) and buy the set today. If you were to work a minimum wage job for 10 hours, you'd have the $50 after taxes. Therefore, buying the set becomes the obvious economic choice, unless you derive personal enjoyment in farming mats such that 17 additional hours of it is fun for you.
Is the set necessary to play the game? No, but it might be the difference between winning a BG or coming in second if you are playing against players of equal skill without access to the benefits of that set, which has no equivalent alternative.
I don't know if all of that meets the mathematical threshold for P2W or not, given the definition on the table. All I'm saying is that if it is possible to buy something, and it's a lot easier to buy something than to put time into getting it, then it approaches a P2W model. I don't think this is ESO's design, I think that the advantage that the heavy SS set offers makes it attractive enough for people to pay super high prices when combining the value of that advantage with its rarity.
If all of the tradeable gear in the game was truly balanced, and the probability of its acquisition equal across sets, the entire market for saleable gear would be more flat and balanced, and the gear market would not create a P2W situation.1 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ESO is pretty well designed in that you can be carried to get gear, but gear does not carry you. If you need to be carried, then a good player on a base game class in crafted gear will be better than you are in perfected Trial gear. Gear matters, but player skill and practice and experience matter more. And if you have skill and practice and experience, there is nothing you can buy that will make you better. You can get whatever you need in game.
I don't particularly care if someone pays for a carry that buffs their DPS from bad to mediocre. What I care about is that good players do not hit a ceiling that can only be overcome with cash.
Unless you consider all spending beyond the base game unacceptable. But if access to anything beyond a 6 year old base game is "Pay 2 Win", then "Pay 2 Win" kind of loses all meaning. Heck, you can reach max level with just base game ESO. Lots of games that no one would call P2W do not even let you reach max level if you have not purchased latest DLC/Expansion.1 -
Prof_Bawbag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MalEducado wrote: »i ask because a lot of ppl pay for runs, pay for skins, pay for carrys to another players... its supouse if someone can paid for the archievements means, the game is a pay to win...
What exactly are you "winning"?
People pay for carries, for bragging/epeen measurements. They then never attempt to run the content on their own, because they can't clear it. No one is impressed, really, because everyone knows people pay for carries/clears.
People pay for carries for skins, because they want the bragging rights and teh shinies, which really count for nothing because everyone knows people pay for carries and clears for skins.
People have bribed emperors to allow themselves to be killed so someone can take the title and the shinies for bragging and epeen measurements. No one is really really impressed, because everyone knows people have paid to get the title.
The only people it matters to are the ones who believe that everyone is impressed with "Grand Catastrophic Leveller of Empires" or whatever title is involved. If someone needs a title desperately enough to pay someone else to get it, instead of it really being a personal achievement, then gold star for them. Pat them on the head and let them brag away. Makes absolutely no difference in my game.
For someone that doesn't give a single jot, your post couldn't be more passive aggressive. Lol1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭By the FPS definition of Pay To Win where you purchase items that make you more powerful, No eso is not pay to win.
By the MMORPG definition to Pay To Win where "winning" is more defined by how people perceive your character in game as far as mount, style, armor, weapon aesthetics, pets, houses etc, then yes ESO is straight up pay to win.
....in before "you can exchange gold for crowns".
1. This has not always been the case.
2. There is no safe, guaranteed method of exchanging gold for crowns. Its a gamble every time someone does it and not worth the risk.
And yes, paying for a clear is pay to win. You are obtaining items like skins, polymorphs and in fact GEAR that does make you stronger (trial gear is often the BIS in game), all in an exchange for gold and if that gold is made by selling crowns, then its 100% pay to win. You are paying to be stronger.
Anything available for gold is not pay-to-win. Gold is an in-game currency available to grind for everyone who owns the base game. That you can trade crowns for gold via gifting does not make that statement any less true.
In the same light, while you regard crown gifts for gold as an unsatisfactory method of buying crown store items for in-game gold, it does not change the fact that it exists as a method of buying all those items you deem necessary for winning through purely in-game means. (I fully agree I'd like a safer method of trading gold for crown items, but the lack of an official trade interface doesn't mean the current methods should be discounted entirely, as they are allowed by ZOS.)
A player who only owns the base game can purchase everything except the latest Chapter for in-game gold, no crowns needed. That we could not do that at one point is irrelevant and has been since Update 18 in 2018.
The only thing that can be remotely considered Pay-to-win in ESO is the latest Chapter exclusive features, and then only for the year that those are cash-only to purchase. Even that is very dependent on what we consider "winning", but I will grant that under your "gotta collect em all to win" definition, Chapter exclusive features would count as pay-to-win as long as they are cash-only.1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »By the FPS definition of Pay To Win where you purchase items that make you more powerful, No eso is not pay to win.
By the MMORPG definition to Pay To Win where "winning" is more defined by how people perceive your character in game as far as mount, style, armor, weapon aesthetics, pets, houses etc, then yes ESO is straight up pay to win.
....in before "you can exchange gold for crowns".
1. This has not always been the case.
2. There is no safe, guaranteed method of exchanging gold for crowns. Its a gamble every time someone does it and not worth the risk.
And yes, paying for a clear is pay to win. You are obtaining items like skins, polymorphs and in fact GEAR that does make you stronger (trial gear is often the BIS in game), all in an exchange for gold and if that gold is made by selling crowns, then its 100% pay to win. You are paying to be stronger.
Anything available for gold is not pay-to-win. Gold is an in-game currency available to grind for everyone who owns the base game. That you can trade crowns for gold via gifting does not make that statement any less true.
In the same light, while you regard crown gifts for gold as an unsatisfactory method of buying crown store items for in-game gold, it does not change the fact that it exists as a method of buying all those items you deem necessary for winning through purely in-game means. (I fully agree I'd like a safer method of trading gold for crown items, but the lack of an official trade interface doesn't mean the current methods should be discounted entirely, as they are allowed by ZOS.)
A player who only owns the base game can purchase everything except the latest Chapter for in-game gold, no crowns needed. That we could not do that at one point is irrelevant and has been since Update 18 in 2018.
The only thing that can be remotely considered Pay-to-win in ESO is the latest Chapter exclusive features, and then only for the year that those are cash-only to purchase. Even that is very dependent on what we consider "winning", but I will grant that under your "gotta collect em all to win" definition, Chapter exclusive features would count as pay-to-win as long as they are cash-only.
The flaw in your argument is that it assumes all players can earn the same amount of gold (MASSIVELY large amounts at that to purchase crowns). This is not even remotely possible.
Secondly, the people using REAL money to purchase crowns, that then exchange them for gold are in fact paying to win if they use that gold to buy carries in game.
3 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think some people are forgetting the under 50 campaign exists? You can buy skill lines and skyshards and use that to have a big advantage over others who are in that campaign which translates into pay to win. Also are people forgetting mythics? You have to pay for the greymoor expansion to have access to antiquities which give you powerful gear which is essentially paid for with real money. I know some people will still argue that this isn’t pay to win but there’s no denying that there is a lot of things in the game that gives you advantage for paying.3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭furiouslog wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Most of the expensive tradeable gear (excluding stickerbook stuff) is typically the BOE sets that are competitive with BOP trial gear or at least reasonable alternatives to the meta. Obviously, you probably want the meta/BIS for, say, scorepushing the latest vet trial, but that's not typically something you would do if you have a great abhorrence for buying paywalled content. Hence the "you can complete the content you own" with non-exclusive meta/BIS items/classes.
So I really don't understand how you think tradeable gear is technically pay-to-win in any way. If all you own is the base game, you can buy all tradeable and craftable gear for in game gold, which can be easily obtained by all manner of in-game content with absolutely no need for "indirectly acquiring gold with real money."
Most P2W games have the possibility of getting the gear in game. These tend to be characterized by the presence of in-game barriers (e.g. extremely low probability of acquisition) that are technically too onerous, so paying becomes the preferred alternative given the time investment.
Earlier, I provided the example of the heavy weight Syvarra's Scales set. This can be acquired by playing the game. First, you need to buy the TG DLC. Then you need to level the skill tree up. Then you need to do heists where the probability of getting the heavies to drop is extremely low (if it's a straight drop, it's about a 1.5% chance, if structured within aggregates as has been done in other loot tables, it could be as low as 0.3%). So, the expected number of times I'd need to run those heists to have a decent probability of getting the 5 pieces I'd need is in the hundreds, at about 10 minutes per heist. It could conceivably be a year before I get the pieces I need, plus the time to get the skill line, plus the crowns to buy the DLC, plus the time to do the heists. So I choose to buy with in game gold.
Estimates of the farming benefit available from youtube videos and reported on this forum is that rates of about 50-100K per hour are achievable for a typical player. For 5 pieces of the heavy Syvarra's, current pricing is at about 2-2.5M for the set. Assuming you get a bargain on your pricing, for which you will have to wait, and assuming that you do the average for farming, that's about 27 hours of farming. Or, you could trade about 8000 crowns for gold (roughly $50) and buy the set today. If you were to work a minimum wage job for 10 hours, you'd have the $50 after taxes. Therefore, buying the set becomes the obvious economic choice, unless you derive personal enjoyment in farming mats such that 17 additional hours of it is fun for you.
Is the set necessary to play the game? No, but it might be the difference between winning a BG or coming in second if you are playing against players of equal skill without access to the benefits of that set, which has no equivalent alternative.
I don't know if all of that meets the mathematical threshold for P2W or not, given the definition on the table. All I'm saying is that if it is possible to buy something, and it's a lot easier to buy something than to put time into getting it, then it approaches a P2W model. I don't think this is ESO's design, I think that the advantage that the heavy SS set offers makes it attractive enough for people to pay super high prices when combining the value of that advantage with its rarity.
If all of the tradeable gear in the game was truly balanced, and the probability of its acquisition equal across sets, the entire market for saleable gear would be more flat and balanced, and the gear market would not create a P2W situation.
See, whereas my view is simply that if you can acquire tradeable gear without having to buy the content it comes in, it's not pay-to-win. It might be "winning" in the meta sense, but the method of payment is totally available to a base-game only player who's willing to put the time in.
Example: Briarheart, an Orsinium set, jumped back into the meta a few updates ago when ZOS buffed the proc. Prices spiked, especially on weapons and stam jewelry, but its farmable from chests, bosses, and delves. Players who didn't own the DLC had to pay for it in gold instead of picking up, say, the quest reward dagger, but we're talking more like 100k or so for a gold quality weapon (prices may vary by server, but that's about what I recall at the time.)
So the vast majority of tradable gear is easily obtainable with persistence, enough that it keeps prices for DLC gear accessible for non-DLC owners. Off-weight Hews Bane gear is very much the exception that proves the rule right now, due to the stickerbook and its, uh, disgustingly grindy method of acquiring it. If we're relying on that one DLC's rarest sets with an acquisition method that ZOS didn't repeat to prove that tradable gear is generally pay-to-win, I'm not seeing it.
Now, I will grant that since I can make 1 million gold in a week when I spend time farming, my view of how much gold grinding is really onerous is probably a little skewed compared to the average player.
Even with that in mind, "Time is money" doesn't actually mean that something is pay to win because it takes time to acquire, though I've known some players who will argue that "pay for convenience" or "pay to get something faster" is pay to win, such as skyshards and skill lines. ESO is generally pretty reasonable in regards to grinding, and I thinks telling that a lot of their big grinds have been lessened over time (transmutation and now stickerbook) or not been repeated (hews bane off weight gear through dailies, Welkynar motif pieces).
And similarly, its my experience in PVP that hypothetical situations between players of theoretical equal skill where the victory is decided purely by their gear really only happens in the forums. But even if I go along with it, we're relying on a very rare circumstance to point the finger at something that might make the few pieces of super expensive DLC gear "winning." Plus, once the meta changes and the offweight Hews Bane gear goes back to being solely of interest to stickerbook collectors, we're back to "paying" a lot of gold, but no "winning."0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Now compare this to WOW, in WOW the entire PvE endgame moves to the new expansion who you can not touch without it.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Agreed.Pay to win is when you pay the developers real money for the stuff that gives you an edge in a fight.
So basically if we have something like dungeon DLC with a very OP gear (not tradable) in it, so the only way to get that gear is to pay rl cash, so yeah, then it is P2W. Similar with some mythics.
I would say this:
Is ESO p2w ?
Yes, but no... It is on the red line.
You can also not do PvP as you will be lower level than the others.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.4 -
Eedat✭✭✭✭✭On a scale of 1 to 10 (excluding the mobile game market which is packed to the brim with the most hardcore pay2win) I would give ESO a 2 or 3. The thing about bound gear being locked behind DLC is if you really need a set or two you can just get ESO+ for a month and power farm the sets you need then let it go. There isnt really any blatant pay2win in the cash shop and the arguably most pay2win aspect of crown crates are the riding lessons which are a bottom tier prize. The skyshards and skill lines in the cash shop dip heavily into the pay for convenience though.
Compared to something like BDO which is more like a 7 or 8 out of 10.
EDIT: I forgot that they do free ESO+ events which gives you access to all but the latest major chapter. You can just powerfarm the sets you need then. I would go with a solid 2 out of tenEdited by Eedat on 11 December 2020 00:181 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »By the FPS definition of Pay To Win where you purchase items that make you more powerful, No eso is not pay to win.
By the MMORPG definition to Pay To Win where "winning" is more defined by how people perceive your character in game as far as mount, style, armor, weapon aesthetics, pets, houses etc, then yes ESO is straight up pay to win.
....in before "you can exchange gold for crowns".
1. This has not always been the case.
2. There is no safe, guaranteed method of exchanging gold for crowns. Its a gamble every time someone does it and not worth the risk.
And yes, paying for a clear is pay to win. You are obtaining items like skins, polymorphs and in fact GEAR that does make you stronger (trial gear is often the BIS in game), all in an exchange for gold and if that gold is made by selling crowns, then its 100% pay to win. You are paying to be stronger.
Anything available for gold is not pay-to-win. Gold is an in-game currency available to grind for everyone who owns the base game. That you can trade crowns for gold via gifting does not make that statement any less true.
In the same light, while you regard crown gifts for gold as an unsatisfactory method of buying crown store items for in-game gold, it does not change the fact that it exists as a method of buying all those items you deem necessary for winning through purely in-game means. (I fully agree I'd like a safer method of trading gold for crown items, but the lack of an official trade interface doesn't mean the current methods should be discounted entirely, as they are allowed by ZOS.)
A player who only owns the base game can purchase everything except the latest Chapter for in-game gold, no crowns needed. That we could not do that at one point is irrelevant and has been since Update 18 in 2018.
The only thing that can be remotely considered Pay-to-win in ESO is the latest Chapter exclusive features, and then only for the year that those are cash-only to purchase. Even that is very dependent on what we consider "winning", but I will grant that under your "gotta collect em all to win" definition, Chapter exclusive features would count as pay-to-win as long as they are cash-only.
The flaw in your argument is that it assumes all players can earn the same amount of gold (MASSIVELY large amounts at that to purchase crowns). This is not even remotely possible.
Secondly, the people using REAL money to purchase crowns, that then exchange them for gold are in fact paying to win if they use that gold to buy carries in game.
How is it impossible for base game players to earn massive large amounts of gold?
All you need is a farming character, maxed crafting lines, and the time to farm Craglorn. (Yes, this and fishing is how I make my gold. It takes time, but I would rather not pay real money for something I can get by spending time in game.)
Or, if you like, you can get into the trading game where you buy cheap and relist at higher prices - again, base game only players can do this.
Sorry, its entirely possible for any player to earn large amounts of gold in game if they so desire. If they would rather spend real money, that's one option, but it is not the only option available to them as you seem to suggest.
As for paying crowns for gold...again, if we accept your definition that by "collecting them all" those folks are winning, then sure, they are paying crowns to get gold in order win...and winning something that's freely available if they were good enough at the game.
I realize we disagree on definitions here, but usually, "pay to win" is when only the people who pay, win.
One thing I am curious about though: what's your solution to making the "gotta collect them all" style of winning NOT pay to win under your definition?
Should ZOS offer less cosmetic stuff, so there's less stuff to collect so its more reasonable for more players to buy it with gold without spending a lot of time farming/trading?
Or should ZOS offer all the cosmetic stuff at a deep discount so its more reasonable for players to buy it with gold without spending a lot of time farming/trading?
Or something else entirely?0 -
SeaUnicorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭It is more of a pay to loose game. You pay money and can't play cuz the game it broken. It's great, highly recommend.5 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »furiouslog wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »A friend considers the content pay wall a form of pay to win. His argument is that if gear that is needed because it is meta or BIS is hidden behind a pay wall then it is by definition pay to win. He adds that there are also meta classes behind the pay wall.
You don't need to follow the meta or have BIS gear to complete content. ESO is surprisingly forgiving in that regard. That's especially true in PVP. Player skill counts for a lot more than slapping on the latest meta gear or rolling the latest meta class. Also, if you are willing to be patient for an ESO+ free trial, you can grind out all the BOP gear you need from any DLC.
Yes, but given two players of equal skill, if one has access to purchasable gear or a class with a paywall that will provide an edge over the other, then that fits the definition.
I think that the drastic differences in pricing for tradeable gear is also evidence that needs to be considered - some things are vastly more expensive than others because the advantage the gear provides relative to its rarity in game creates a large enough demand that it can sustain those prices. If what you said was true, then the pricing distribution for tradeable gear would be much flatter. If there were cheap alternatives that were close to what was available at high prices, the prices would come down.
Some of the market is influenced by what is pushed out as meta, which is essentially a marketing campaign for gear, but plenty of examples exist of other gear sets that don't have that kind of support yet still command crazy prices. It could be a bubble, but it could also be an actual problem of imbalance or accessibility, at which point it's technically P2W since gold can indirectly be acquired for money.
For the record, I don't think that any P2W is ESO's deliberate intention, I think it just ends up functionally being that way because these issues exist.
Fair warning, this turned out a bit more meandering than I'd hoped.
Most of the expensive tradeable gear (excluding stickerbook stuff) is typically the BOE sets that are competitive with BOP trial gear or at least reasonable alternatives to the meta. Obviously, you probably want the meta/BIS for, say, scorepushing the latest vet trial, but that's not typically something you would do if you have a great abhorrence for buying paywalled content. Hence the "you can complete the content you own" with non-exclusive meta/BIS items/classes.
So I really don't understand how you think tradeable gear is technically pay-to-win in any way. If all you own is the base game, you can buy all tradeable and craftable gear for in game gold, which can be easily obtained by all manner of in-game content with absolutely no need for "indirectly acquiring gold with real money."
If anything, ESO is the opposite, allowing players to indirectly acquire crown store items with in-game gold obtained purely from base game activities. That's not a paywall. The only (temporary) paywall is the yearly Chapter.And I do tend to think that granting "any gameplay advantage" is a gross overstatement of Pay-to-win, no matter what Wikipedia says.
Because if I thought that, then yes, Wardens, Necromancers, Jewelry Crafting, Psijic Order, and Antiquities were or are all pay-to-win. Any Chapter exclusive is pay-to-win as long as its exclusive! Congrats, ESO is a pay-to-win game!
If that's your opinion, I can understand that conclusion. I just don't agree. My thought are more like: What are you "winning" that a skilled player can't win without that item?
My answer is "nothing, skilled players can complete all the content they own/compete in PVP without the item. Obviously you didn't need the new chapter exclusive to complete previous content (though what a meta-following guild tells you might be another story.) And yes, players without the Chapter exclusive stuff can still be competitive in PVP (though what the forums tell you, again, may be another story.)
If I really dig into something I'd consider pay-to-win:
ESO is at its most pay-to-win when we consider legitimately unbalanced Chapter exclusives. Even there, ESO gives players who bought the Chapter for its exclusive gear, class or feature at best a fleeting advantage until the thing gets nerfed (example: Thrassians, Wardens, 8 Necros in a trial) or the Chapter becomes available for in-game gold a year later. Now, unless we assume that's a deliberate marketing tactic, that's not intentional Pay-to-win game design. (Someone who does assume this is intentional may well disagree with me on that point, and I can see their side of it.)
With all that in mind, I'd be a lot happier if Chapters weren't cash-only, as I've argued since Morrowind launched. I think that would really take ESO out of any pay-to-win territory completely, even for the "but any paywall is pay-to-win" crowd.
Let us not forget that Zos gives everyone access to all DLCs every year. I think that is a couple of times a year where they can do all the dungeons and all the zones except the most recent chapter.
At that, a player's skill is the most deciding factor in how well their character performs. If a player is skilled enough to get the top DPS in this game while dealing with the mechanic of fights they can easily make any raid team in this game with non-DLC gear.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think some people are forgetting the under 50 campaign exists? You can buy skill lines and skyshards and use that to have a big advantage over others who are in that campaign which translates into pay to win. Also are people forgetting mythics? You have to pay for the greymoor expansion to have access to antiquities which give you powerful gear which is essentially paid for with real money. I know some people will still argue that this isn’t pay to win but there’s no denying that there is a lot of things in the game that gives you advantage for paying.
The first point about the under 50 campaigns/BGs is entirely fair. I'd completely forgotten about that, which is bad because, yeah, I really dislike that ZOS did that and I was pretty outspoken about it at the time.
I can accept the skyshards. I mean, sure, maybe somebody did a LOT of exploration before level 10, right?
But the skill lines bothers me. My main complaint about having access to Vigor early isn't that bad anymore, since it unlocks right away now, but its easy to see a practical advantage to buying skill lines and really winning in low level PVP with skills you weren't supposed to gain access to yet at that low level and that your low level opponents have no other way of obtaining until they've first leveled those skill lines the "normal" way.0 -
linuxlady✭✭✭✭Some people call pay to win when you pay the game developers real world cash in order to get an advantage over other players and if this game were that then maybe you could say it's pay to win but real pay to win truly means that you can play the content but not clear the content unless you pay real world cash for an item that can not be gotten in game through achievement that is necessary to clear the prospective content... ie, requiring you buy x armor and y weapon that is necessary to finish a trial or a dungeon because said armor and weapon are not available through any other means than the cash purchase... that's true pay to win. everything else is just a watered down version of that and not a true pay to win. THat bsw flame staff can be gotten in game if you know how to how to build a sneak build and get a friend to go with you into vet coa and hit the chests while avoiding the baddies then exit and reset then go again ...for several hours a day for several days... on one account i had we both got 2 bsw flame staffs in less than a weeks time trying for several hours a day.... you can't buy them in the crown store... and even if you could they can be gotten in game if you know how.1
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erio✭✭✭✭✭Yes you pay 40$ for one zone 1 raid and some jank op class. Such bs Wow gives you 6+ zones 5 like 5 raids its insane4
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linuxlady✭✭✭✭By the FPS definition of Pay To Win where you purchase items that make you more powerful, No eso is not pay to win.
By the MMORPG definition to Pay To Win where "winning" is more defined by how people perceive your character in game as far as mount, style, armor, weapon aesthetics, pets, houses etc, then yes ESO is straight up pay to win.
....in before "you can exchange gold for crowns".
1. This has not always been the case.
2. There is no safe, guaranteed method of exchanging gold for crowns. Its a gamble every time someone does it and not worth the risk.
And yes, paying for a clear is pay to win. You are obtaining items like skins, polymorphs and in fact GEAR that does make you stronger (trial gear is often the BIS in game), all in an exchange for gold and if that gold is made by selling crowns, then its 100% pay to win. You are paying to be stronger.
Clearly you never tried to solo play with trial gear. trial gear is not the bis for solo play. for 12 man trials yah im sure its the bees knees but the whole game is not trials.0 -
linuxlady✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I think some people are forgetting the under 50 campaign exists? You can buy skill lines and skyshards and use that to have a big advantage over others who are in that campaign which translates into pay to win. Also are people forgetting mythics? You have to pay for the greymoor expansion to have access to antiquities which give you powerful gear which is essentially paid for with real money. I know some people will still argue that this isn’t pay to win but there’s no denying that there is a lot of things in the game that gives you advantage for paying.
The first point about the under 50 campaigns/BGs is entirely fair. I'd completely forgotten about that, which is bad because, yeah, I really dislike that ZOS did that and I was pretty outspoken about it at the time.
I can accept the skyshards. I mean, sure, maybe somebody did a LOT of exploration before level 10, right?
But the skill lines bothers me. My main complaint about having access to Vigor early isn't that bad anymore, since it unlocks right away now, but its easy to see a practical advantage to buying skill lines and really winning in low level PVP with skills you weren't supposed to gain access to yet at that low level and that your low level opponents have no other way of obtaining until they've first leveled those skill lines the "normal" way.
Very likely when the year is up and the new chapter is out, all those things will get nerfed...0 -
precambria✭✭✭✭✭ESO is not a pay to win game, people joke about necro and warden or mythics being P2W but they don't understand what it means. Expansion content does not equal pay to win, you can pay to save time but only on things you have actually done, inventory space is probably the biggest scam in ESO but you can for sure win without it.0 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Raideen said..."The flaw in your argument is that it assumes all players can earn the same amount of gold".VaranisArano wrote: »How is it impossible for base game players to earn massive large amounts of gold?
It is 100% impossible for all players to earn the sheer amount of gold it takes to purchase crowns on the scale we are talking about, where "Winning" is a mass collection of the coolest stuff in game. There are gold sinks, which I am sure you are aware of, that ensure the gold is kept in check. Gold comes in and gold goes out, but the gold that passes between players hands is not created, its cycled. This coupled with the amount of players and the limited time of many of the crown store items ensures to a GREAT degree that gold can not be easily exchanged for crowns to obtain these items during their short duration for sale.
and an ESO+ required sub for the crafting bag.VaranisArano wrote: »All you need is a farming character, maxed crafting lines, and the time to farm Craglorn. (Yes, this and fishing is how I make my gold. It takes time, but I would rather not pay real money for something I can get by spending time in game.)
Not to the degree it takes to purchase crowns, especially if you are on console.VaranisArano wrote: »Or, if you like, you can get into the trading game where you buy cheap and relist at higher prices - again, base game only players can do this.
No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.VaranisArano wrote: »Sorry, its entirely possible for any player to earn large amounts of gold in game if they so desire. If they would rather spend real money, that's one option, but it is not the only option available to them as you seem to suggest.
Good enough has nothing to do with it. Playing the game to make gold is the only way that would be possible. No one is going to run dungeons and get cool mounts like in wow or any other MMO. No one is going to run trials and get cool mounts like in wow or any other MMO. No one is going to do quests and get cool mounts like in wow or any other MMO. The only way to obtain the items in ESO is through the crown store. The crown/gold conversion and difficulty it takes for the average player to make gold ensures those folks will not be able to do a conversion, but will instead have to spend real life money in order to obtain a shiny mount. Its pay to win on the MMO scale.VaranisArano wrote: »As for paying crowns for gold...again, if we accept your definition that by "collecting them all" those folks are winning, then sure, they are paying crowns to get gold in order win...and winning something that's freely available if they were good enough at the game.
No, its not about disagreeing with definitions, you straight up disregard it. Secondly, using crowns to buy gold to pay for a trial run is very much pay to win.VaranisArano wrote: »I realize we disagree on definitions here, but usually, "pay to win" is when only the people who pay, win.VaranisArano wrote: »One thing I am curious about though: what's your solution to making the "gotta collect them all" style of winning NOT pay to win under your definition?
Should ZOS offer less cosmetic stuff, so there's less stuff to collect so its more reasonable for more players to buy it with gold without spending a lot of time farming/trading?
Or should ZOS offer all the cosmetic stuff at a deep discount so its more reasonable for players to buy it with gold without spending a lot of time farming/trading?
Or something else entirely?
Simple. The most popular MMORPG's set the standard 2 decades ago, you simply earn these items by playing the game. In ESO, you do not earn items by playing the game. The vast majority of outfits, mounts, pets, etc are all obtained through the crown store, which the vast majority of the time requires real money to be spent.
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rpa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, it's a buy to play game with nickel-and-dime elements. If you want the shiny bop things from newest content you have to buy access to it. If you want to craft you can either insert bamboo slivers under your fingernails or sub for craft bag. If you want to get your nth alt playable now instead of months from now you can pay to quick fatten the horse and skip some of the grind you have already done with your previous char. If you want a wedding dress for your fat male orc you have to buy it. Also gamble crates with the juiciest mounts for addicts.
Edited by rpa on 11 December 2020 04:540 -
Eedat✭✭✭✭✭By the FPS definition of Pay To Win where you purchase items that make you more powerful, No eso is not pay to win.
By the MMORPG definition to Pay To Win where "winning" is more defined by how people perceive your character in game as far as mount, style, armor, weapon aesthetics, pets, houses etc, then yes ESO is straight up pay to win.
....in before "you can exchange gold for crowns".
1. This has not always been the case.
2. There is no safe, guaranteed method of exchanging gold for crowns. Its a gamble every time someone does it and not worth the risk.
And yes, paying for a clear is pay to win. You are obtaining items like skins, polymorphs and in fact GEAR that does make you stronger (trial gear is often the BIS in game), all in an exchange for gold and if that gold is made by selling crowns, then its 100% pay to win. You are paying to be stronger.
I'm not trying to be mean, but what did I just read? You are just making up a definition of "MMO winning" out of thin air to suit your needs lol. Cosmetics are not pay2win at all. As far as buying trial runs, you can easily earn gold to buy them via in game means if making money is actually a goal. And thats where most people fail. They want to make money, but dont want to put an ounce of effort in to doing it lol. I make millions in pure profit a week by just buying and flipping items. I generally spend an hour or two a few times per week searching for deals then listing them and going to bed. I made like 4m flipping opal pages the first two days of the event alone. It's so ridiculously easy to make gold in this game.3 -
Thechuckage✭✭✭✭✭The game is not so much P2W as P2 get advantages that are not insurmountable. Best example - craftbag.
Now the monetization model as a whole? Predatory as all get out. Payday loan type with ridiculous interest rate levels of predation.
But paying for a trial carry? not so much.4 -
Eedat✭✭✭✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »The game is not so much P2W as P2 get advantages that are not insurmountable. Best example - craftbag.
Now the monetization model as a whole? Predatory as all get out. Payday loan type with ridiculous interest rate levels of predation.
.......what? This whole thread is so bizarre0 -
rpa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well, it's not pay to win. You can buy the game from sale, not pay a cent more and complete content you bought (as far as a mmo can be completed) without being crippled. Inventory blues being the biggest woe.
Monetization still sucks because fun rewards one would get from playing a sub game are instead in crown store and gamble boxes.
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VoxAdActa✭✭✭✭✭No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.
There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.
Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.
Edited by VoxAdActa on 11 December 2020 07:202
