is Teso pay to win game?

VaranisArano

Raideen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Raideen, I said I didn't think there was any point to continuing the argument, and frankly, I'm still not seeing the point. You're getting a little insulting and its just not worth fighting over.

"I'm still not seeing the point" is exactly why I keep responding, well that and you keep responding. Secondly, I have said nothing that is insult worthy, so not sure why you are getting upset. Perhaps you are reading the incorrect emption into my words.

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's only one point I'm still a little confused on. The "free" thing.

You said: "Every single item in the crown store should be available in game, acquired by playing the game, for the base price of the retail copy."

The retail copy of ESO, base game, is like $10, right?
So if I understand you correctly, you want everything that ZOS currently sells for extra money to be added into the retail copy of ESO, still for $10.
How is that NOT wanting the DLC, Chapter, and all other cosmetic items that you would otherwise pay money for to become free? Sure, you have to buy the game for $10, but all that extra stuff is now a freebie tacked on to the same cost of the base game.

Base game and chapters should be charged for (like other games do it, well except Hello Games and No Mans Sky). If someone is opting into ESO+ (a subscription) everything available in the crown store should be able to be obtained in game by doing content. It is absolutely ridiculous, and extremely greedy for a company to charge a retail copy, a sub (sub IS required for crafting contrary to what you say, and everyone knows this), and the insane prices in the crown store, on TOP of gamble crates. Blizzard Entertainment charges and has charged $14.99 USD since 2004 to access their game. Everything in game is available to the player for the price of the retail copy (base or expansions) and the sub. If a player chooses NOT to sub, they can purchase a game token for 30 days for in game gold. This is an ethical business model. Its upfront, and the player knows what they are getting. When I started ESO I did not know I would not get cool mounts in game, or cool pets. I did not know that I would have to pay for DLC throughout the year on top of a yearly chapter on top of 15 a month to craft because bag space is paltry and their are 400+ crafting items in game alone. None of this is up front, and some of it is very misleading.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Or were you expecting ZOS to jack up the price on the retail copy to account for all the things they are no longer charging extra money for, and just didn't say so? In that case, what do you expect the cost of the base game to go up to once ZOS adds in all the items they are adding to the game for sale? I mean, the 3 Quarterly DLC + Greymoor work out to just shy of $80 for this year alone if you buy them for real money.

I expect ZOS to treat their customers ethically. Blizzard can make money hand over fist for 15 bucks a month, Hello Games is making money hand over fist for retail box copies alone with No Many Sky, how come ZOS has to charge a retail copy, AND 15 a month, AND gamble crates to get cool mounts because they are not offered in game, AND DLC? Its pure greed.

VaranisArano wrote: »

So I guess I'm confused about how we get from "Every single item in the crown store should be available in game, acquired by playing the game, for the base price of the retail copy." To "I never asked for anything for free." Unless we are paying the price ZOS would otherwise be charging us for those items in the retail copy price, we're either talking freebies tacked onto the base game retail price or a very, very deep discount. Right?

If you read through my posts and take the lesson as a whole, and not cherry pick sentences, it makes lot more sense.
There is nothing to be confused about.

Raideen, I'm glad to hear you werent trying to insult me when you said: "Unless you can list, in detail how you make gold, how many hours a day you play to prove your assertion, I call BS." That's a relief, since I'm not lying about the time I spend farming nor the money I make, nor that any base-game-only, non-subscribing player could have the same success. It requires time and effort, but putting in time and effort to succeed is a hallmark of the MMORPG genre.

If you would like more details, well, I'd like to be asked more politely.

But I do want to thank you for clarifying how you see us paying ZOS for all those cosmetics. Your idea makes a lot more sense now that you've spelled it out for me in detail. It was not clear from the first that you intended ZOS to return to a subscription model and still charge for expansions when they removed the crown store and added those cosmetic items to the game. Thank you for explaining that. I think that sounds reasonable.

Raideen

VoxAdActa wrote: »

You have yet to explain what specific mechanism prevents some people from making enough gold to buy things, while still allowing other people to do just that, even though everyone starts out at exactly the same place with exactly the same opportunities. How do you think the first guy who made a million gold did it? Do you believe the devs said "Hey, we like you, here's a million gold that we took from everyone else who's playing rn"?

[snip] You need to consider all my posts in context because you are arguing points I did not make, taking things I said WAAY out of context and ignoring the original point.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

You can't make gold because you have to repair your gear? Seriously? You can't make more money than it takes to repair your stuff? Are you level 6? I make 3x my repair costs just doing zone quests for a couple hours. How are you even playing this game, that you can't make 500g in a full day of playtime? And more importantly, how is it our fault you can't make more than 500g in a full day of playtime? Nobody else has that problem. That is 100% a "you"-specific problem.

I used gold repair AS AN EXAMPLE of gold sinks that exist in game. It's just one example of the many that exist. But thank you for taking what I said and spinning it to fit YOUR narrative, not the truth.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

The gold is literally created out of thin air, and (except for your specific, unique, baffling circumstance, I guess) we all can create gold faster than we're forced to spend it. That's how we get a couple million gold in the bank before we're 810CP. That's how it happens. That's the ONLY WAY it happens. The gold is literally infinite. There is no reason you can't do your daily crafting writs every day and eventually buy a 13k crown house with it. Literally no reason except you CHOOSE not to spend the time to do it. That, again, is not a system problem, it's a you problem.

This discussion is not about me making gold. You once again fail to address the point.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

You think ESO is p2w? Tell you what. Go play Neverwinter for a couple hours so you can see what actual p2w games look like, then come back here. To start with, ESO lets you buy all the extra classes with in-game gold. Neverwinter charges you $50 each.

Ya, I have and ESO is 100x worse.
How about you go play World of Warcraft. Spend 15 bucks a month, or none if you choose to purchase an in game token for the month. Blizzard makes money hand over fist, more than ESO. They have a MUCH more expensive infrastructure, more employees, more overhead overall, have a MUCH more stable game, more content and charge less by MAGNITUDES than ZOS...and still make more money.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Raideen

Linaleah wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

and what YOU are not understanding is that nothing, absolutely NOTHING other then available time that is stopping you from adding to this amount.

and what YOU are not understanding is that there is LITTERALLY NOT ENOUGH TIME in the day for a player to kill/collect enough gold to sustain all of the necessary purchases in the crown store to put this game on par with the monetization model of other MMORPGS.

Linaleah wrote: »

you can keep looting items and selling them to vendors you can farm 24/7 if you are so inclined and the vendors will not tell you to stop vendoring.

No you can not farm 24/7 to get enough told this way. You can literally die if you try doing so.

Linaleah wrote: »

stealing has individual character limits per day, but stealing is not the only source of gold. I mean... there are infinite thieves guild missions that you can just keep doing... and doing... and doing for laundered vendor trash so its not even subject to fence limits.

and none of this will allow the player to make the LITERAL millions of gold needed to sustain the player through the crown store.

Linaleah wrote: »

what gold currently exists in game has NO bearing on any individuals ability to generate more gold through gameplay. so you can literally just generate enough gold to exchange with other players - out of thin air. you are NOT limited by existing in game gold. you. can make. MORE.

Your entire argument is moot because you never ONCE addressed the context of the argument.

context of the argument is that yes you CAN make the gold. yes you CAN generate it. yes you CAN make enough to make a good number of crown purchases via gold. i mean.. i did. and I don't even farm extensively at all. I farm occasionally for specific things, get bored after less then an hour and move on to something else, and i STILl end up with enough stuff to get me more then enough gold. does it happen fast? now. can you afford EVERYTHING in crown store? absolutely not, and neither can you do so in other games, unless you are a gold making savant. does it make it pay to win? ABSOLUTELY NOT. cosmetics are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. no matter how much you try to insist otherwise, they are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. they are cosmetics. they have no bearing on player power

why? because even when you look at things that are convenience based that do have bearing on player power? you can still just earn them in game. for less total time investment than it would take to make enough gold to buy them via crown store.

the context of your argument is apparently just becasue you cannot buy 100% of all things, its pay to win? that is not even in the same city, let alone ballpark of pay to win. in a game where through gameplay ALONE, WITHOUT having to farm 24/7 or even having max level characters, let alone high CP characters - you can make enough gold to purchase a DLC within a week of farming few hours a day each day? what is your context about limited gold again?

No, you still miss the context. In order to suggest (as others have) that the game does not require anyone to purchase crowns, that the ENTIRE game can be had with gold alone, is a fallacy. It is 100% impossible for the entire player base to purchase the entirety of ESO with gold alone. This is the argument.

its impossible, not becasue gold is not infinite, but becasue crowns. are NOT infinite. moreover. what are you considering entirety of ESO. all the DLC's? or ALL of the cosmetics? and are we accounting for the fact that as a subscriber, you GET crowns for each month you subscribe along with acess to entire ESO minus most recent expansion? (which is pretty standard for pay to PLAY games - which is what ESO is. its PAY TO PLAY, NOT PAY TO WIN). and therein lays a rub. subscription crowns constitute a good chunk of crown selling. and subscription crowns are more then enough to acess entirety of ESO eventually, especially if you wait for DLC sales.

You ARE STILL not addressing the point that Is spelled out clearly above. Go read what your friend said about the game.

Kiralyn2000

Raideen wrote: »

Ya, I have and ESO is 100x worse.
How about you go play World of Warcraft. Spend 15 bucks a month, or none if you choose to purchase an in game token for the month. Blizzard makes money hand over fist, more than ESO. They have a MUCH more expensive infrastructure, more employees, more overhead overall, have a MUCH more stable game, more content and charge less by MAGNITUDES than ZOS...and still make more money.

But how can everyone just buy their WoW subscription with gold?!?! <insert your argument about the infinite gold supply actually being limited>


Seriously, how is that any different? Especially since it's worse, since doesn't the gold-sellable $15 subscription actually cost the real money purchaser $20? Meanwhile, huge amount of extra Crowns are introduced into the ESO economy by all the people subbing for craft bag & DLC access. So all those subscribers with vast piles of crowns and nothing they want to spend them on, are available to do crown-selling.

Raideen

VaranisArano wrote: »

Raideen, I'm glad to hear you werent trying to insult me when you said: "Unless you can list, in detail how you make gold, how many hours a day you play to prove your assertion, I call BS." That's a relief, since I'm not lying about the time I spend farming nor the money I make, nor that any base-game-only, non-subscribing player could have the same success. It requires time and effort, but putting in time and effort to succeed is a hallmark of the MMORPG genre.

It is 100% impossible for a new player, who does not understand the mechanics of the game, who does not understand how anything works, who still has paltry bag space to make enough gold through base game alone to purchase crown store items at the same rate those items can be had in other MMORPGS for simply playing the game. That is what you assert, and that is what I say is BS.

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you would like more details, well, I'd like to be asked more politely.

I dont need details because I know for a new player, what you do is 100% impossible.

VaranisArano wrote: »

But I do want to thank you for clarifying how you see us paying ZOS for all those cosmetics. Your idea makes a lot more sense now that you've spelled it out for me in detail. It was not clear from the first that you intended ZOS to return to a subscription model and still charge for expansions when they removed the crown store and added those cosmetic items to the game. Thank you for explaining that. I think that sounds reasonable.

I did not suggest that ZOS return to a sub model. Hello Games and No Mans Sky makes more money than ESO by a large magnitude and in the 4 years the game has been out they have charged for a base retail copy only. Not ONE penny for updates/DLC, not ONE penny for server costs.

I don't know why you are so antagonistic towards me and my posts. I am simply trying to help ZOS make money hand over fist, in a completely ethical way (IMO their current business model is not ethical at all).

VaranisArano

Raideen wrote: »

I don't know why you are so antagonistic towards me and my posts.

Well, if disagreeing with you is antagonistic, then this isn't worth fighting over.

I've got no further questions. I think your positions are pretty clear. Thanks for the conversation!

Raideen

VaranisArano wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

I don't know why you are so antagonistic towards me and my posts.

Well, if disagreeing with you is antagonistic, then this isn't worth fighting over.

I've got no further questions. I think your positions are pretty clear. Thanks for the conversation!

I have no problem with disagreements, it helps me understand what your position is on unethical business practices. My issue is when things are said that are not completely true, hidden through a veil of convolution.

VaranisArano

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm not lying about the time I spend farming nor the money I make, nor that any base-game-only, non-subscribing player could have the same success. It requires time and effort, but putting in time and effort to succeed is a hallmark of the MMORPG genre.

This is tangential to the argument going on over pay to win, but I figured if I'm going to say any player can have the same success I did, I might as well lay out how I did it, from low level player joining my first trading guild to making 1 million a week farming.

ESO is an MMORPG. You get out what put in. Making gold via farming requires time and effort, but its surprisingly accessible for new, low level players who only own the base game.

I like farming. I find it relaxing.

I started off joining a trading guild with a low weekly requirement for membership. Then, because I was low level, the valuable things I could sell were level independent: alchemy reagents, kuta runes, and perfect roe. This paid for my bag and bank upgrades, since I was leveling before the Crafting Bag was added to the game. I've never subscribed, so I simply invested in the in-game methods of managing my inventory.

I started playing before One Tamriel, so there's a few items to add to that list now. Nirncrux can be farmed in Craglorn at a low level now and housing mats have a steady demand. Back then, I farmed the safe roads of Vet 11 Craglorn as a lowly Vet 4.

As I leveled up crafting while I quested, I started selling the gold improvement mats from refining and the higher level materials.

I did most of my early farming on my main character, a MagDK, but found it was much more efficient to do so on my second character, a Breton Stam Sorc. Once she finished the DC storyline, she became my farmer.


Eventually, I have my current setup for an efficient Craglorn farmer, which is still very accessible to any player who's playing ESO and willing to put in the time to flesh out a character:
A trading guild
A stamina build
Base game speed gear (I use darkstride and cowards gear)
Maxed bag and carry capacity
Maxed Crafting Passives and Keen Eye
Harvesting CP Passives
Familiarity with where the resource nodes spawn

The exact profit varies from update to update, mainly depending on the cost of nirncrux. I'm sure it varies by platform/server - I'm on PC/NA. Back in 2017, I tracked that I was making 55 to 65k gold an hour with my farming. Some players say they get up to 100k an hour, but I've never done that.

Back in February 2020, the last time I sat down and tracked my farming time/profit, nirncrux was on the expensive side. I farmed for 12 hours and sold the results for 1,023,651 gold. Or about 85k an hour.


So that's my "secret". I've put in the time and effort to build an efficient farmer, and then I put in the time and effort to farm, and sell the results.

Plenty of players have other methods of making gold! I know others who really enjoy crafting writs or playing the market. This is what worked for me. The same opportunity is available for new players.

My definition of winning in an MMORPGs does not involve owning all the cosmetics, but I do think that players should be able to buy all gameplay-impacting content for in-game gold. Obviously the latest Chapter is cash-only for a year, so ESO doesn't allow that fully. Its a pity, but they didn't listen to me when Morrowind came out and I don't expect them to change their mind. So I will limit myself to the DLC, classes, and race that we can buy.

So how feasible is it to buy all the DLC and additional classes and the Imperial Race? This is the stuff that tangibly impacts gameplay, not merely in a "pay-for-convenience" way like some of the other upgrades.

DLC = 34,500 crowns
Classes = 3000 crowns
Races = 2100 crowns

Total Gameplay Upgrades: 39,600 crowns or somewhat less than $300 worth of crowns

I'm not 100% sure what the current exchange rate on PC/NA is, but 200:1 seems to be a common ratio for gold to crown gifting. So, how long would I have to farm to make 8 million gold in sales?

Hmm. About 8 weeks at my usual rate, give or take. Not too bad for me, but YMMV.

pod88kk

No

Sinolai

To my understanding, Pay to Win means having to use real money to gain access on equipments, skills and upgrades that are better than anything offered by just playing the game.

By that definition: No, unless you count gear and skills from DLCs.

But since all MMOs require you to buy the newest expansion to gain access into new stuff, I wouldnt count it. ESO still offers very good gear and skill pool even with just monthly subscription or even with base f2p game.

Selling achievements/gear/skins for in-game currency is not pay to win as you are not required to spend real money. You can still farm the in-game currency by playing and then use that in-game currency to buy whatever you want.

jircris11

Linaleah wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

and what YOU are not understanding is that nothing, absolutely NOTHING other then available time that is stopping you from adding to this amount.

and what YOU are not understanding is that there is LITTERALLY NOT ENOUGH TIME in the day for a player to kill/collect enough gold to sustain all of the necessary purchases in the crown store to put this game on par with the monetization model of other MMORPGS.

Linaleah wrote: »

you can keep looting items and selling them to vendors you can farm 24/7 if you are so inclined and the vendors will not tell you to stop vendoring.

No you can not farm 24/7 to get enough told this way. You can literally die if you try doing so.

Linaleah wrote: »

stealing has individual character limits per day, but stealing is not the only source of gold. I mean... there are infinite thieves guild missions that you can just keep doing... and doing... and doing for laundered vendor trash so its not even subject to fence limits.

and none of this will allow the player to make the LITERAL millions of gold needed to sustain the player through the crown store.

Linaleah wrote: »

what gold currently exists in game has NO bearing on any individuals ability to generate more gold through gameplay. so you can literally just generate enough gold to exchange with other players - out of thin air. you are NOT limited by existing in game gold. you. can make. MORE.

Your entire argument is moot because you never ONCE addressed the context of the argument.

context of the argument is that yes you CAN make the gold. yes you CAN generate it. yes you CAN make enough to make a good number of crown purchases via gold. i mean.. i did. and I don't even farm extensively at all. I farm occasionally for specific things, get bored after less then an hour and move on to something else, and i STILl end up with enough stuff to get me more then enough gold. does it happen fast? now. can you afford EVERYTHING in crown store? absolutely not, and neither can you do so in other games, unless you are a gold making savant. does it make it pay to win? ABSOLUTELY NOT. cosmetics are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. no matter how much you try to insist otherwise, they are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. they are cosmetics. they have no bearing on player power

why? because even when you look at things that are convenience based that do have bearing on player power? you can still just earn them in game. for less total time investment than it would take to make enough gold to buy them via crown store.

the context of your argument is apparently just becasue you cannot buy 100% of all things, its pay to win? that is not even in the same city, let alone ballpark of pay to win. in a game where through gameplay ALONE, WITHOUT having to farm 24/7 or even having max level characters, let alone high CP characters - you can make enough gold to purchase a DLC within a week of farming few hours a day each day? what is your context about limited gold again?

Sadly your words will fall on deaf ears. Most people in most games just want something to complain about.

DebaZapelo

This game is not P2W in no way!

There is nothing in the Ingame store to give you an edge over another player

Starlock

DebaZapelo wrote: »

This game is not P2W in no way!

There is nothing in the Ingame store to give you an edge over another player

There isn't?

So paying for riding lessons to max doesn't give one an edge?
Paying for skill points doesn't give one an edge?
Paying for skill lines to max doesn't give one an edge?
Paying to shortcut research doesn't give one an edge?
Having cool looking stuff doesn't give one an edge?
Paying for experience boosters doesn't give one an edge?
Paying to win event rewards with tickets doesn't give one an edge?
Having a big, cool, fully furnished house doesn't give one an edge?
Pet-exclusive inventory space doesn't give one an edge?

Really? I mean, really? None of that stuff gives one an edge? Really?

Vandellia

It's kind of silly really. First you need to define what "Pay to win" means before the entire discussion starts. Lets say this first, Meta builds are number cruncher yield based builds that do not suit everyones' style of play. And to all the meta player "its gotta bes'" I really dont give a flying fig what kind of dps you are putting out against a training dummy, if you can not play your "meta" build well enough to stay alive. dummy numbers in no way reflect real life non static battles. I have seen many non meta build players that out perform the "gotta have x build" in dungeons and end game content its more about ability then anything else. Yes this game does have a bit of pay wall for content access but its 1 shot per account. you buy the zone 1 time and never ever have to pay again . If you dont want to pay for content development and content expansion and bug fixes then buy a solo based non on-line game and have at it. But its hard in the end to convince anyone who wants to find some dead horse to beat that that they are misinformed or off base ..

Kiralyn2000

Starlock wrote: »

DebaZapelo wrote: »

This game is not P2W in no way!

There is nothing in the Ingame store to give you an edge over another player

There isn't?

So paying for riding lessons to max doesn't give one an edge?
Paying for skill points doesn't give one an edge?
Paying for skill lines to max doesn't give one an edge?
Paying to shortcut research doesn't give one an edge?
Having cool looking stuff doesn't give one an edge?
Paying for experience boosters doesn't give one an edge?
Paying to win event rewards with tickets doesn't give one an edge?
Having a big, cool, fully furnished house doesn't give one an edge?
Pet-exclusive inventory space doesn't give one an edge?

Really? I mean, really? None of that stuff gives one an edge? Really?

The person earning all that stuff in game, has the exact same stuff as the person who paid Crowns for it. It just took them longer.

And if "took them longer" is enough to yell Unfair! about, then the guy who started playing the game a year before me has an unfair edge over me as well.


(and how does anything cosmetic - like styles, outfits, or a fully-furnished house - give one any kind of "edge" over another player? How are their combat stats or pvp performance any higher due to those things?)


"Pay to Win" has to be stuff you can only get for cash, that are better than what people not paying that cash can get. Which means (even ignoring the fact that ESO doesn't have that in it's crown store) that the fact you can get cash shop things with Gold via Gifting, insulates the game further from any "p2w" accusations. Because the things in the cash shop are not "only available with cash".

Vandellia

Got to laugh, really people, If you want to be a Veruca Salt ie" I want it all I want it right now" then the game is pay for advantage (not win) if you have a normal amount of patience then nope... besides what is win? in this game anyway ? being the best bully ? etc...

Eedat

No I am not wrong. I am 100% correct. The gold supply of ESO is infinite meaning that gold comes in at no cost. But gold sinks also take that gold out of the game.

However, the amount of gold that can be EXCHANGED from one player to another at any point in time IS FINITE. Players can not create gold out of thin air. Gold exchange is what is necessary for players to purchase crowns. When a player hands you gold for crowns, that gold is not made out of thin air for the crown seller, its exchanged. The gold is MOVED, not created. This is the point. Not all players in game can simultaneously purchase the large amounts of crowns necessary to give legitimacy to the idea that "you dont have to pay for crowns with IRL money". That statement can only be true if its the same for all players, but the amount of gold available in game does not allow for that, because the exchange supply of gold is finite.

This has gone well into the realm of ridiculousness and mental gymnastics. There is no limit to the amount of gold the game will print you. By definition this makes it not finite. There is no definite limit. You are so focused on one meaning of the word infinite and are refusing to acknowledge the others. Infinite can mean an unlimited or unspecified amount.

There is exactly nothing that forces you in this game to dump you gold into a gold sink. You can sell in zone chat. Do crafting writs for repair kits. Buy from players directly. The only gold sinks in the game are opt in. Therefore, the amount of gold you print for yourself is infinite.

Not that any of this matters because crown selling isn't a gold sik anyway. Exactly zero gold is lost. It can be sustained indefinetly.

Raideen wrote: »

Megatto wrote: »

I'd say it's more pay to collect as most collectibles such as mounts and pets can only be obtained in the crown store and from loot boxes.

I agree, but often in the MMORPG setting the folks with the most stuff are often looked at under the impression of "winning".

This is an absolutely ridiculous definition of winning. Presenting having people groveling at your sick looking gear as a valid goal of "winning" is the most shallow, narcissistic goal you can could have picked and is intentionally disingenuous. It's also the complete and utter opposite of how it actually works. People who flaut their wealth and stand in the middle of town spamming space bar on their apex mount are actually looked DOWN on as being obnoxious and egotistical.

If status is your actual definition of "winning", may I suggest the plethora of superior free2play options? Such options include kindness, humor, helpfulness, generosity, knowledgeable, dedication, caring, patience, and a whole slew of others. Pick a few of those that match your personality and you will gain more respect from other players than any apex mount could ever possibly earn.

Starlock

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

"Pay to Win" has to be stuff you can only get for cash, that are better than what people not paying that cash can get. Which means (even ignoring the fact that ESO doesn't have that in it's crown store) that the fact you can get cash shop things with Gold via Gifting, insulates the game further from any "p2w" accusations. Because the things in the cash shop are not "only available with cash".

Hmm... could you point me in the direction of the in-game vendor that sells the cash shop mounts then? How about those inventory pets? Where's the fighter's guild trainer that will max out my skill lines for in-game gold after I've already done it on one character? Does the Prophet come back in a special location to sell me skill points (skyshards) for in-game gold? Did I miss these somewhere?

Kwoung

Raideen wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.

There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.

Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.

Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.

When a player harvests and sells tempars/wax/rosin/platings, or sells armor, or gets paid for running someone through a dungeon, the gold is being exchanged, or transferring hands, it is NOT created.

There is not a single gold looting activity in this game that will allow a single to amass the millions necessary to purchase crown crates during the duration of their sale.

If you can't make the 80-100,000k to buy a crown crate for gold during the time they will be on sale, you are doing something terribly wrong. Twisting someone point of making gold vs looting gold is silly. You can either make enough gold via your efforts, or you can't. With your crown crate example, you can easily. I made over 125k just today on one level 39 character just doing the daily crafting writs... between the gold rewarded (out of thin air) and the value of the other rewards for completing it

freespirit

No it is not!

Kwoung

Starlock wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

"Pay to Win" has to be stuff you can only get for cash, that are better than what people not paying that cash can get. Which means (even ignoring the fact that ESO doesn't have that in it's crown store) that the fact you can get cash shop things with Gold via Gifting, insulates the game further from any "p2w" accusations. Because the things in the cash shop are not "only available with cash".

Hmm... could you point me in the direction of the in-game vendor that sells the cash shop mounts then? How about those inventory pets? Where's the fighter's guild trainer that will max out my skill lines for in-game gold after I've already done it on one character? Does the Prophet come back in a special location to sell me skill points (skyshards) for in-game gold? Did I miss these somewhere?

Yes, you missed them, they not NPC's, but they are right over there <points to nearest Crown Seller>

Kwoung

Opps