is Teso pay to win game?

Araneae6537

VaranisArano wrote: »

Not by the generally accepted definition of "pay-to-win." I think enough people have hammered that out before me.

If you have an alternate definition of 'winning", such as saying "#fashionscrolls is the true endgame, and I have to pay the Crown Store to get all the best looks," then yeah, you can say ESO is "pay-to-win." I know at least one person with a similar stance.

Or if you think that paying in-game currency to get carried in content is "pay to win", sure you can call it that. I know several posters who've asked that trial carries be banned.

But if you were asking about pay-to-win in the generally accepted meaning of the term, no, ESO isn't a pay-to-win game.

Yes, and in the Fashion Scrolls scene it’s really much worse than even that: It’s gamble to win.

RageKing

ESO is absolutely pay to win. You don't think all my costumes and skins I purchased doesnt have a mental effect on my enemy? Mainly in PVP whenever i wear my wedding dress, I instantly remind my enemy of their wedding night which throws them off their game enough that I can win a battle. And if they arent married, I also wear my Shrike's Nocturnal Frock costume which coupled with a mesmerizing skin, I again distract my enemy assuring my win.

S

Hallothiel

What exactly is ‘winning’ in this game anyway?!

As others have explained, there is nothing that is only accessible through purchasing it with rl cash.

I don’t include wardens or necros as you can still play end game with base game classes.

CaptainVenom

If you take into account dungeon sets are bound and you gotta buy a pass, then yes.

Other than that, not at all. People can always drop DLC overland sets and sell them, or craft them for you. The rest of Crown Store is 90% cosmetics items with no combat advantage.

Mythreindeer

MalEducado wrote: »

i ask because a lot of ppl pay for runs, pay for skins, pay for carrys to another players... its supouse if someone can paid for the archievements means, the game is a pay to win...

The answer is no.

All games have pay for convenience and many have pay to won. ESO is not pay to win.

relentless_turnip

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

Introduction of mythic items behind a pay-wall really pushes the envelope but I wouldn't go so far as saying ESO is pay-to-win.

Pay-to-win would be paying crowns to acquire Volendrung, for example.

Almost every game and especially MMO's charge for their expansion. I mean in WOW you literally cannot level to the new level cap without buying it. I don't think it can really be an argument without dragging the names of 100's of other titles through the mud.

Kiralyn2000

Raideen wrote: »

By the FPS definition of Pay To Win where you purchase items that make you more powerful, No eso is not pay to win.

By the MMORPG definition to Pay To Win where "winning" is more defined by how people perceive your character in game as far as mount, style, armor, weapon aesthetics, pets, houses etc, then yes ESO is straight up pay to win.

...since when has that ever been the MMO definition of "pay to win"? O_o

I first learned about P2W in MMOs. Ones where you could only get the fastest mounts from the cash shop. Ones where there was everywhere/open-world PvP and you could loot your enemy's body of his great gear. Where the best gear was also only available for cash. And you could buy consumable "protection" items (to keep people from looting that gear) and automatic healing pools.... only from the cash shop. Where to enchant your gear high enough to be competitive in PvP, you needed to buy enchanting crystals from the cash shop. Etc. You know, actual "pay to win", just like you say is in FPS's.

Since when have cosmetics been any part of P2W? For most people, the cash shop sticking to cosmetics (and avoiding anything with actual game function) is how you avoid being P2W.

And being able to get cash shop items with currency farmable in-game (whether by crown gifting, or a currency exchange like in Star Trek Online, or by letting all the cash shop items be tradable in the auction house like SWtOR), is the other major way of avoiding P2W.


re: "not everyone can get gold"
I bought Hundings Palatial Hall just by doing crafting writs.
With just the base character slots, you can earn 26k gold a day with writs (and that's just the base quest rewards, vendoring Ornates, and auctioning intricates & rare crafting mats, would get you more).
1 mil gold every ~38 days. And, of course, any additonal playing of the game you did would get you more. Writs is just the absolute basic low end.

It is 100% impossible for all players to earn the sheer amount of gold it takes to purchase crowns on the scale we are talking about, where "Winning" is a mass collection of the coolest stuff in game. There are gold sinks, which I am sure you are aware of, that ensure the gold is kept in check. Gold comes in and gold goes out, but the gold that passes between players hands is not created, its cycled.

There are gold sinks literally because "gold comes in" is infinite gold created from thin air. If there weren't gold sinks, the gold would pile up, there'd be rampant inflation, and the cost of those goods being traded between characters would skyrocket.

VaranisArano

Raideen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

How is it impossible for base game players to earn massive large amounts of gold?

Raideen said..."The flaw in your argument is that it assumes all players can earn the same amount of gold".

It is 100% impossible for all players to earn the sheer amount of gold it takes to purchase crowns on the scale we are talking about, where "Winning" is a mass collection of the coolest stuff in game. There are gold sinks, which I am sure you are aware of, that ensure the gold is kept in check. Gold comes in and gold goes out, but the gold that passes between players hands is not created, its cycled. This coupled with the amount of players and the limited time of many of the crown store items ensures to a GREAT degree that gold can not be easily exchanged for crowns to obtain these items during their short duration for sale.

VaranisArano wrote: »

All you need is a farming character, maxed crafting lines, and the time to farm Craglorn. (Yes, this and fishing is how I make my gold. It takes time, but I would rather not pay real money for something I can get by spending time in game.)

and an ESO+ required sub for the crafting bag.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Or, if you like, you can get into the trading game where you buy cheap and relist at higher prices - again, base game only players can do this.

Not to the degree it takes to purchase crowns, especially if you are on console.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sorry, its entirely possible for any player to earn large amounts of gold in game if they so desire. If they would rather spend real money, that's one option, but it is not the only option available to them as you seem to suggest.

No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.

VaranisArano wrote: »

As for paying crowns for gold...again, if we accept your definition that by "collecting them all" those folks are winning, then sure, they are paying crowns to get gold in order win...and winning something that's freely available if they were good enough at the game.

Good enough has nothing to do with it. Playing the game to make gold is the only way that would be possible. No one is going to run dungeons and get cool mounts like in wow or any other MMO. No one is going to run trials and get cool mounts like in wow or any other MMO. No one is going to do quests and get cool mounts like in wow or any other MMO. The only way to obtain the items in ESO is through the crown store. The crown/gold conversion and difficulty it takes for the average player to make gold ensures those folks will not be able to do a conversion, but will instead have to spend real life money in order to obtain a shiny mount. Its pay to win on the MMO scale.

VaranisArano wrote: »

I realize we disagree on definitions here, but usually, "pay to win" is when only the people who pay, win.

No, its not about disagreeing with definitions, you straight up disregard it. Secondly, using crowns to buy gold to pay for a trial run is very much pay to win.

VaranisArano wrote: »

One thing I am curious about though: what's your solution to making the "gotta collect them all" style of winning NOT pay to win under your definition?

Should ZOS offer less cosmetic stuff, so there's less stuff to collect so its more reasonable for more players to buy it with gold without spending a lot of time farming/trading?

Or should ZOS offer all the cosmetic stuff at a deep discount so its more reasonable for players to buy it with gold without spending a lot of time farming/trading?

Or something else entirely?

Simple. The most popular MMORPG's set the standard 2 decades ago, you simply earn these items by playing the game. In ESO, you do not earn items by playing the game. The vast majority of outfits, mounts, pets, etc are all obtained through the crown store, which the vast majority of the time requires real money to be spent.

First off, I think you are stretching the goal of winning by collecting all the things to ALL players. While probably true that ALL players cannot acquire ALL the things with gold (I mean, gold is infinitely generated as long as the servers are on, but at some point we have to be practical even when talking about ALL players), it remains true that any individual player who does want to can make that gold over time. Which, honestly, is fine with me. If you want to play "collect 'em all", cool! You can earn the gold to do so! Me, I only want certain things, so I have to earn much less gold to still "win" by buying only what I really want.

Second, I'm not an ESO+ subscriber. Never have been. So if the crafting bag is your excuse why a base game only player can't make lots of gold farming without paying real money, please try again.


But in any case, I think I see where we are ending up: ZOS should give all cosmetic items away for free (that is, free for in game gold/effort) so that all players can "win" all the things. Also remove all crown gifts for gold, so no one can pay and instead must play/grind the game.

Gotcha. Any sort of Crown Store sales, be it available for in game gold or not, is going to make a game pay to win for you because as soon as there's any ability to buy those items, players will pay to get items they could earn for free if they played the game.

Oh, and we must outlaw carries too, because heaven forbid that people pay gold for mounts/outfits that are freely available if they were good enough at the game to do the content without a carry.


So now that we've established that your end goal is "ZOS, give us stuff for free," I'm not really seeing any point to continuing the argument.

Danikat

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

re: "not everyone can get gold"
I bought Hundings Palatial Hall just by doing crafting writs.
With just the base character slots, you can earn 26k gold a day with writs (and that's just the base quest rewards, vendoring Ornates, and auctioning intricates & rare crafting mats, would get you more).
1 mil gold every ~38 days. And, of course, any additonal playing of the game you did would get you more. Writs is just the absolute basic low end.

And if for some reason you can't, or don't want to do crafting writs or deal with guild stores there's always stealing, which can be done by literally anyone. A level 2 character just out of the tutorial on a base-game only account, playing solo with no skills and no equipment can make a few thousand gold a day by stealing.

That's a big part of how I was able to get the 325,000g to buy Mournoth Keep. It took me a month or two because I only play about an hour or two at a time and not every day, and I didn't want to focus exclusively on stealing for gold, but taking some time looking around wherever I happened to be for items to steal made a big difference to my total gold.

If you don't want to steal you can collect crafting materials and sell them. Even selling them to NPC vendors will get you some gold, but selling to other players is better.

linuxlady

Hallothiel wrote: »

What exactly is ‘winning’ in this game anyway?!

As others have explained, there is nothing that is only accessible through purchasing it with rl cash.

I don’t include wardens or necros as you can still play end game with base game classes.

In this game, winning is having the courage to walk away slowly

linuxlady

Also, just because you feel envious of what someone else has, and you have the not the skill to earn it but there is an option to buy it with in game gold or real world cash, this does not make eso pay to win.

Fazuszek

Ofcourse it is, how can anybody ask such question?

Raideen

Eedat wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

By the FPS definition of Pay To Win where you purchase items that make you more powerful, No eso is not pay to win.

By the MMORPG definition to Pay To Win where "winning" is more defined by how people perceive your character in game as far as mount, style, armor, weapon aesthetics, pets, houses etc, then yes ESO is straight up pay to win.
....in before "you can exchange gold for crowns".
1. This has not always been the case.
2. There is no safe, guaranteed method of exchanging gold for crowns. Its a gamble every time someone does it and not worth the risk.

And yes, paying for a clear is pay to win. You are obtaining items like skins, polymorphs and in fact GEAR that does make you stronger (trial gear is often the BIS in game), all in an exchange for gold and if that gold is made by selling crowns, then its 100% pay to win. You are paying to be stronger.

I'm not trying to be mean, but what did I just read? You are just making up a definition of "MMO winning" out of thin air to suit your needs lol. Cosmetics are not pay2win at all. As far as buying trial runs, you can easily earn gold to buy them via in game means if making money is actually a goal. And thats where most people fail. They want to make money, but dont want to put an ounce of effort in to doing it lol. I make millions in pure profit a week by just buying and flipping items. I generally spend an hour or two a few times per week searching for deals then listing them and going to bed. I made like 4m flipping opal pages the first two days of the event alone. It's so ridiculously easy to make gold in this game.

I am not making up anything, its the natural conclusion of what it means to "win" based on how MMORPG's work. Just because you have not considered what it means, does not mean I have not.

Raideen

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.

There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.

Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.

Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.

When a player harvests and sells tempars/wax/rosin/platings, or sells armor, or gets paid for running someone through a dungeon, the gold is being exchanged, or transferring hands, it is NOT created.

There is not a single gold looting activity in this game that will allow a single to amass the millions necessary to purchase crown crates during the duration of their sale.

Raideen

VaranisArano wrote: »

First off, I think you are stretching the goal of winning by collecting all the things to ALL players. While probably true that ALL players cannot acquire ALL the things with gold (I mean, gold is infinitely generated as long as the servers are on, but at some point we have to be practical even when talking about ALL players), it remains true that any individual player who does want to can make that gold over time. Which, honestly, is fine with me. If you want to play "collect 'em all", cool! You can earn the gold to do so! Me, I only want certain things, so I have to earn much less gold to still "win" by buying only what I really want.

I am not stretching anything, as I posted to another poster who failed to consider what it means to win in an MMO, its a natural evolution of the games design. I should not have to spell this out as its very obvious. When a player "wins" in an MMO, they acquire mounts, pets, outfits, armor, rare drops in general that they can "show off" to the community. This is what it means to "win" in an mmo. In ESO, the VAST majority of that is done through crown purchases, not earning them through game content. Hence, PTW.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Second, I'm not an ESO+ subscriber. Never have been. So if the crafting bag is your excuse why a base game only player can't make lots of gold farming without paying real money, please try again.

Unless you can list, in detail how you make gold, how many hours a day you play to prove your assertion, I call BS. The average, NON ESO+ base game only player is not making gold hand over fist, ESPECIALLY newish players, and DEFINITELY not enough to purchase crown crates or crown store offerings in any form of consistency.

VaranisArano wrote: »

But in any case, I think I see where we are ending up: ZOS should give all cosmetic items away for free (that is, free for in game gold/effort) so that all players can "win" all the things. Also remove all crown gifts for gold, so no one can pay and instead must play/grind the game.

ZOS is not giving anything away for free, where do you come up with this? The fact we pay for a retail copy of the game is 100% proof that the content is not being given away freely. Hello Games and No Mans Sky has made more money than ESO and has only charged for a retail box copy. No monthly sub, no payment asked for DLC. If they can monetize honestly and up front, why can't Zenimax?

VaranisArano wrote: »

Gotcha. Any sort of Crown Store sales, be it available for in game gold or not, is going to make a game pay to win for you because as soon as there's any ability to buy those items, players will pay to get items they could earn for free if they played the game.

Every single item in the crown store should be available in game, acquired by playing the game, for the base price of the retail copy.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Oh, and we must outlaw carries too, because heaven forbid that people pay gold for mounts/outfits that are freely available if they were good enough at the game to do the content without a carry.

People are purchasing crowns for real money, selling those crowns for gold and using that gold for a carry. Yes, that should be banned, but it makes ZOS money so they will not do it.

VaranisArano wrote: »

So now that we've established that your end goal is "ZOS, give us stuff for free," I'm not really seeing any point to continuing the argument.

100% incorrect. I never asked for anything for free. Not ONE time did I assert that the game should be for free. ESO is sold through retail copies, that alone means nothing is free.

Do you know why player retention (which I am starting to think is done by design) is so low in ESO? It's because very little of what we have in game is "earned". Earned items psychologically mean more to people than things that are handed out. This has been proven through decades if not centuries of psychology. Perhaps if ESO allowed players to EARN their wares in the MMO (like World of Warcraft does), ESO would retain more of its player base. There would be fewer people complaining about the monetary choice by ZOS, because it would be more honest.

xaraan

Depends on what you think "winning" is in an MMO.

I think it is a little bit.

Is winning only being able to buy a super sword that is stronger than anything you can earn in game that gives you an advantage in pvp or pve? If so, then no, the game is not P2W. Although there is often gear, new classes and skill lines, etc. you can get only if you buy expansions or new zones. So I can see why some view that as P2W, but I view it as playing a B2P game in that regard. But, technically speaking, you are buying power (even if it's just a little more) that others cannot get if they don't fork over the cash.

Is winning being able to customize your character just how you want with what's created by the devs in a game about customization and immersion? Then yes, it is if you fall there.

Is winning being able to manage inventory and goods to be prepared for the variety of gameplay? Then yes, you can buy inventory space available only in the crown store, you can get bonus storage with ESO+, etc.

Personally, I think the game is pretty borderline, if not sticking a toe over it with the inventory pets. I view customization as equally important as anything else in the game (in Skyrim for example, I'd have as many or more mods customizing gear, homes, the world as I would gameplay), but selling cosmetics is pretty much accepted by the gamerworld now so I'll get over it. I'm actually fine with the selling of cosmetics outside of crown crates, they need to go. But they are making too much money taking advantage of people. The fact they exist is a clear indicator of zos' morals however.

Eedat

Raideen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

First off, I think you are stretching the goal of winning by collecting all the things to ALL players. While probably true that ALL players cannot acquire ALL the things with gold (I mean, gold is infinitely generated as long as the servers are on, but at some point we have to be practical even when talking about ALL players), it remains true that any individual player who does want to can make that gold over time. Which, honestly, is fine with me. If you want to play "collect 'em all", cool! You can earn the gold to do so! Me, I only want certain things, so I have to earn much less gold to still "win" by buying only what I really want.

I am not stretching anything, as I posted to another poster who failed to consider what it means to win in an MMO, its a natural evolution of the games design. I should not have to spell this out as its very obvious. When a player "wins" in an MMO, they acquire mounts, pets, outfits, armor, rare drops in general that they can "show off" to the community. This is what it means to "win" in an mmo. In ESO, the VAST majority of that is done through crown purchases, not earning them through game content. Hence, PTW.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Second, I'm not an ESO+ subscriber. Never have been. So if the crafting bag is your excuse why a base game only player can't make lots of gold farming without paying real money, please try again.

Unless you can list, in detail how you make gold, how many hours a day you play to prove your assertion, I call BS. The average, NON ESO+ base game only player is not making gold hand over fist, ESPECIALLY newish players, and DEFINITELY not enough to purchase crown crates or crown store offerings in any form of consistency.

VaranisArano wrote: »

But in any case, I think I see where we are ending up: ZOS should give all cosmetic items away for free (that is, free for in game gold/effort) so that all players can "win" all the things. Also remove all crown gifts for gold, so no one can pay and instead must play/grind the game.

ZOS is not giving anything away for free, where do you come up with this? The fact we pay for a retail copy of the game is 100% proof that the content is not being given away freely. Hello Games and No Mans Sky has made more money than ESO and has only charged for a retail box copy. No monthly sub, no payment asked for DLC. If they can monetize honestly and up front, why can't Zenimax?

VaranisArano wrote: »

Gotcha. Any sort of Crown Store sales, be it available for in game gold or not, is going to make a game pay to win for you because as soon as there's any ability to buy those items, players will pay to get items they could earn for free if they played the game.

Every single item in the crown store should be available in game, acquired by playing the game, for the base price of the retail copy.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Oh, and we must outlaw carries too, because heaven forbid that people pay gold for mounts/outfits that are freely available if they were good enough at the game to do the content without a carry.

People are purchasing crowns for real money, selling those crowns for gold and using that gold for a carry. Yes, that should be banned, but it makes ZOS money so they will not do it.

VaranisArano wrote: »

So now that we've established that your end goal is "ZOS, give us stuff for free," I'm not really seeing any point to continuing the argument.

100% incorrect. I never asked for anything for free. Not ONE time did I assert that the game should be for free. ESO is sold through retail copies, that alone means nothing is free.

Do you know why player retention (which I am starting to think is done by design) is so low in ESO? It's because very little of what we have in game is "earned". Earned items psychologically mean more to people than things that are handed out. This has been proven through decades if not centuries of psychology. Perhaps if ESO allowed players to EARN their wares in the MMO (like World of Warcraft does), ESO would retain more of its player base. There would be fewer people complaining about the monetary choice by ZOS, because it would be more honest.

.... incorrect? The population is still growing year over year at least according to what info we do have like steam statistics. Can we stop with these awful Wow comparisons yet? Cool, ESO isn't as successful as the most popular MMO in the history of the planet. By this logic, every single other MMO that isn't Wow is trash. Every single MMO should just be a copy/paste of Wow. Get rid of every system that differs from Wow. Being number 5 best or number 3 best on the entire planet still means you're *** because you're not number 1. All games must follow the standards of Wow. If you dare to be different than Wow, you are factually incorrect.

VaranisArano

Raideen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

First off, I think you are stretching the goal of winning by collecting all the things to ALL players. While probably true that ALL players cannot acquire ALL the things with gold (I mean, gold is infinitely generated as long as the servers are on, but at some point we have to be practical even when talking about ALL players), it remains true that any individual player who does want to can make that gold over time. Which, honestly, is fine with me. If you want to play "collect 'em all", cool! You can earn the gold to do so! Me, I only want certain things, so I have to earn much less gold to still "win" by buying only what I really want.

I am not stretching anything, as I posted to another poster who failed to consider what it means to win in an MMO, its a natural evolution of the games design. I should not have to spell this out as its very obvious. When a player "wins" in an MMO, they acquire mounts, pets, outfits, armor, rare drops in general that they can "show off" to the community. This is what it means to "win" in an mmo. In ESO, the VAST majority of that is done through crown purchases, not earning them through game content. Hence, PTW.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Second, I'm not an ESO+ subscriber. Never have been. So if the crafting bag is your excuse why a base game only player can't make lots of gold farming without paying real money, please try again.

Unless you can list, in detail how you make gold, how many hours a day you play to prove your assertion, I call BS. The average, NON ESO+ base game only player is not making gold hand over fist, ESPECIALLY newish players, and DEFINITELY not enough to purchase crown crates or crown store offerings in any form of consistency.

VaranisArano wrote: »

But in any case, I think I see where we are ending up: ZOS should give all cosmetic items away for free (that is, free for in game gold/effort) so that all players can "win" all the things. Also remove all crown gifts for gold, so no one can pay and instead must play/grind the game.

ZOS is not giving anything away for free, where do you come up with this? The fact we pay for a retail copy of the game is 100% proof that the content is not being given away freely. Hello Games and No Mans Sky has made more money than ESO and has only charged for a retail box copy. No monthly sub, no payment asked for DLC. If they can monetize honestly and up front, why can't Zenimax?

VaranisArano wrote: »

Gotcha. Any sort of Crown Store sales, be it available for in game gold or not, is going to make a game pay to win for you because as soon as there's any ability to buy those items, players will pay to get items they could earn for free if they played the game.

Every single item in the crown store should be available in game, acquired by playing the game, for the base price of the retail copy.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Oh, and we must outlaw carries too, because heaven forbid that people pay gold for mounts/outfits that are freely available if they were good enough at the game to do the content without a carry.

People are purchasing crowns for real money, selling those crowns for gold and using that gold for a carry. Yes, that should be banned, but it makes ZOS money so they will not do it.

VaranisArano wrote: »

So now that we've established that your end goal is "ZOS, give us stuff for free," I'm not really seeing any point to continuing the argument.

100% incorrect. I never asked for anything for free. Not ONE time did I assert that the game should be for free. ESO is sold through retail copies, that alone means nothing is free.

Do you know why player retention (which I am starting to think is done by design) is so low in ESO? It's because very little of what we have in game is "earned". Earned items psychologically mean more to people than things that are handed out. This has been proven through decades if not centuries of psychology. Perhaps if ESO allowed players to EARN their wares in the MMO (like World of Warcraft does), ESO would retain more of its player base. There would be fewer people complaining about the monetary choice by ZOS, because it would be more honest.

Raideen, I said I didn't think there was any point to continuing the argument, and frankly, I'm still not seeing the point. You're getting a little insulting and its just not worth fighting over.


There's only one point I'm still a little confused on. The "free" thing.

You said: "Every single item in the crown store should be available in game, acquired by playing the game, for the base price of the retail copy."

The retail copy of ESO, base game, is like $10, right?
So if I understand you correctly, you want everything that ZOS currently sells for extra money to be added into the retail copy of ESO, still for $10.
How is that NOT wanting the DLC, Chapter, and all other cosmetic items that you would otherwise pay money for to become free? Sure, you have to buy the game for $10, but all that extra stuff is now a freebie tacked on to the same cost of the base game.

Or were you expecting ZOS to jack up the price on the retail copy to account for all the things they are no longer charging extra money for, and just didn't say so? In that case, what do you expect the cost of the base game to go up to once ZOS adds in all the items they are adding to the game for sale? I mean, the 3 Quarterly DLC + Greymoor work out to just shy of $80 for this year alone if you buy them for real money.

So I guess I'm confused about how we get from "Every single item in the crown store should be available in game, acquired by playing the game, for the base price of the retail copy." To "I never asked for anything for free." Unless we are paying the price ZOS would otherwise be charging us for those items in the retail copy price, we're either talking freebies tacked onto the base game retail price or a very, very deep discount. Right?

Kiralyn2000

Raideen wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.

There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.

Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.

Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.

There are gold sinks because the gold supply is infinite. That's the entire point of gold sinks - to try to remove some of the Constantly Increasing Pile Of Gold™ back out of the economy, so there isn't runaway inflation. If the gold supply wasn't infinite, there would be no reason at all to have gold sinks.

SpiritofESO

zvavi

p2w is an aspect that has no exact line. I wouldn't call ESO the most p2w game in the industry, but I wouldn't call it the most f2p friendly either (I didn't even count in that we all payed for this game).

Some aspects of it are p2w. Craft bag, and over powered introduced items that get nerfed after 2 patches are the best examples for them.

josiahva

People who think ESO is PTW have never in their lives played a PTW game. Period.

JKorr

Faulgor wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Pay to win is when you pay the developers real money for the stuff that gives you an edge in a fight. When you pay for carry runs, you give gold to other players. It's not pay to win.

It is if you buy the gold with crowns which you bought with real money.

But that is none of my business ...

um....No. Doesn't matter how much gold you buy. You get the same gear as everyone else in the game. No advantage is gained. Until there is some kind of contest to win total power to command all of Nirn by totally blinging out your bought from the crown store shiny glowing sparkly mount with gold armor, diamond encrusted reins, ermine padded saddles, and Meridia's ray of supernal light shining down on you everywhere you go, you get no advantage to playing the game by paying for it.

JKorr

Miszou wrote: »

Craft Bag says hi.

Also, for the record, I don't believe it's pay to win.

If you can win Emperor, get on the leaderboards for pvp, get a record for fastest run through a trial because you have the craft bag, I need to do a ticket, because I've had it since it started, and *none* of my characters has been emperor yet, let alone any of the other things.

Nomadic_Atmoran

MalEducado wrote: »

i ask because a lot of ppl pay for runs, pay for skins, pay for carrys to another players... its supouse if someone can paid for the archievements means, the game is a pay to win...

This is not what pay to win means. There is literally nothing stopping any of these players from simply getting better at the game and running the content with friends and guildmates. The only thing they are accomplishing by paying for these titles and achievements is watering down the significance of the title/achievement making the fact they paid for it laughable.

zvavi

JKorr wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Craft Bag says hi.

Also, for the record, I don't believe it's pay to win.

If you can win Emperor, get on the leaderboards for pvp, get a record for fastest run through a trial because you have the craft bag, I need to do a ticket, because I've had it since it started, and *none* of my characters has been emperor yet, let alone any of the other things.

What about the ones that have crafting as their end game? They enjoy getting patterns etc, crafting furnishings etc, and that's what they play for? Craft bag is definitely p2w for crafters, because craftbag gives a significant advantage.

Same about stranglers before nerf, and now ring of the pale order. Significant advantage behind pay wall is p2w.

JKorr

Thechuckage wrote: »

The game is not so much P2W as P2 get advantages that are not insurmountable. Best example - craftbag.

Now the monetization model as a whole? Predatory as all get out. Payday loan type with ridiculous interest rate levels of predation.

But paying for a trial carry? not so much.

Raideen wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.

There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.

Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.

Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.

When a player harvests and sells tempars/wax/rosin/platings, or sells armor, or gets paid for running someone through a dungeon, the gold is being exchanged, or transferring hands, it is NOT created.

There is not a single gold looting activity in this game that will allow a single to amass the millions necessary to purchase crown crates during the duration of their sale.

Raideen, gold is created. There is no flashing banner showing up saying "Daily Gold Allotment has been reached. No further sales or purchase of any item is possible. Return tomorrow to buy any and all items from npc vendors or guild stores." With all the players doing trading, selling, and buying there can't be a finite amount of gold. There are gold sinks in the game to take excess gold out of the economy, but that is after it is created.

Sorry; I have to disagree with the "can't earn enough gold" part. With one account, doing writs on most of the characters, picking up mats while questing, and selling the tempers, flowers, mundane runes, etc, I've made over 650k at a time. Just think what I could do if I actually put effort into farming and sold the mats for the prices listed on TTC, instead of using MM, my guilds, and setting reasonable prices.

Linaleah

Danikat wrote: »

Pay to win means paying the developers for stuff which gives you an advantage over other players. For example games where you could earn the best equipment by grinding dungeons hoping for that 0.01% drop chance...or you could buy it right away for $10.

Paying other players for services in the game is not pay to win, even if those services help you complete achievements (or do it for you). I suppose since you can buy crowns, sell them for gold and use that gold to pay for carrys you can in a round-about way pay real money to complete achievements, but the entire system is something players have created and run, it's not actually part of the game.

In pay to win games systems like that are almost unavoidable because they're actually built into the game itself.

yep.

from personal experience - Allods comes to mind. that game was build to require cash shop items in order to progress. to the point when they created subscription only servers that did not have cash shop and cash shop items - but forgot to rebalance combat and enemies to account for there not being cash shop boosters anymore - players couldn't progress in the game, because it has become impossibly difficult. they had to scramble and fix it, but it was a very telling thing that confirmed what was an unsaid knowledge.

THAT. is pay to win. buying carries... is not.

Linaleah

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.

There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.

Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.

THIS.

its not real life. gold is made out of thin air in video games and the ONLY reason we do not have the obsene levels of inflation of other long running MMO's is guild trader fees that take huge amounts of gold OUT of the economy once a week.

how much gold you can make is only limited by your patience and dedication. and you don't even need to join a trading guild.

VoxAdActa

Raideen wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.

There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.

Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.

Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.

When a player harvests and sells tempars/wax/rosin/platings, or sells armor, or gets paid for running someone through a dungeon, the gold is being exchanged, or transferring hands, it is NOT created.

There is not a single gold looting activity in this game that will allow a single to amass the millions necessary to purchase crown crates during the duration of their sale.

You are 100% dead wrong. You think gold sinks are the exact opposite of what gold sinks actually are.

But hey, we'll roll with it. The gold in ESO is finite. So tell me, at what point to the vendors stop buying your items? Is there a daily limit of a couple million gold? At what point during the day/week/month do the NPCs stop giving money?