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is Teso pay to win game?
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Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.
There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.
Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.
Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.
When a player harvests and sells tempars/wax/rosin/platings, or sells armor, or gets paid for running someone through a dungeon, the gold is being exchanged, or transferring hands, it is NOT created.
There is not a single gold looting activity in this game that will allow a single to amass the millions necessary to purchase crown crates during the duration of their sale.
way to misunderstand gold sinks.
the reason they exist is BECAUSE gold generation from gameplay IS infinite. if you don't have something to take it back out - we will drown in gold and inflation.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Craft Bag says hi.
Also, for the record, I don't believe it's pay to win.
If you can win Emperor, get on the leaderboards for pvp, get a record for fastest run through a trial because you have the craft bag, I need to do a ticket, because I've had it since it started, and *none* of my characters has been emperor yet, let alone any of the other things.
What about the ones that have crafting as their end game? They enjoy getting patterns etc, crafting furnishings etc, and that's what they play for? Craft bag is definitely p2w for crafters, because craftbag gives a significant advantage.
Same about stranglers before nerf, and now ring of the pale order. Significant advantage behind pay wall is p2w.
Still no. Before the craft bag started, before the extra bank space from ESO+, there were crafters. It involved making alts for space and doing a lot of inventory shuffle games, but it was doable. Again, besides making things easier, what "significant advantage" does the crafting bag give? What about the console players who can make free alt accounts, and get a private guild bank? What kind of "significant advantage" would that give? You can and many people have played crafters without the crafting bag. ZOS even helps with that; people wait for a free weekend and cram everything they can into the free for the weekend craft bag and load the extra bank space, then wait for the next free weekend to do it again.1 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Craft Bag says hi.
Also, for the record, I don't believe it's pay to win.
If you can win Emperor, get on the leaderboards for pvp, get a record for fastest run through a trial because you have the craft bag, I need to do a ticket, because I've had it since it started, and *none* of my characters has been emperor yet, let alone any of the other things.
What about the ones that have crafting as their end game? They enjoy getting patterns etc, crafting furnishings etc, and that's what they play for? Craft bag is definitely p2w for crafters, because craftbag gives a significant advantage.
Same about stranglers before nerf, and now ring of the pale order. Significant advantage behind pay wall is p2w.
Still no. Before the craft bag started, before the extra bank space from ESO+, there were crafters. It involved making alts for space and doing a lot of inventory shuffle games, but it was doable. Again, besides making things easier, what "significant advantage" does the crafting bag give? What about the console players who can make free alt accounts, and get a private guild bank? What kind of "significant advantage" would that give? You can and many people have played crafters without the crafting bag. ZOS even helps with that; people wait for a free weekend and cram everything they can into the free for the weekend craft bag and load the extra bank space, then wait for the next free weekend to do it again.
1. Creating a guild bank from 10 alt accounts you don't play is borderline exploit (btw if u have a personal guild bank most of the advantages provided by craft bag are indeed nullified)
2. So? People running content now, if zos introduce op item in store, it means that since people run content previously it is not p2w?
3. Making things much easier is a significant advantage.
I also played p2w games and managed to fair well (even be in the top guild) as f2p player, saying "crafters without craftbag exist so craftbag is not p2w" is like saying p2w Korean games are not p2w cause u can fair relatively well even as f2p.0 -
hafgood✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is one of those arguments that comes around every now and then.
Those that think its p2w will always argue its p2w.
Those that don't will always argue it isn't.
Thise that think its p2w are wrong and have no idea as to what a p2w game is. There is nothing that cannot be purchased in this game for gold apart from the latest chapter. Everything else is available using ingame currency.
Yes you may have to find a crown seller to purchase it from but you can buy it.
So warden and necro, all dlc's, can be bought with gold. Yes there is a risk but so be it.
No you can't get the craft bag or skyshards / skill lines in that manner but they are not p2w either. To be able to purchase the skyshards / skill lines you have to already have done them on a character. They and the craft bag are pay for convenience, as are riding lessons.
The true p2w games are those where the only way to compete or win is by buying items from the crown store equivalent that make you stronger.
If you could spend 3000 crowns on a set of perfected false gods, or a perfected maelstrom bow, then yes I'd accept the p2w argument. But you can't.
There is nothing in the crown store that will give you an edge,.not even the warden or necro - and those saying they are behind a pay wall need to understand that everyone has had to purchase them, there isn't a player in the game that is using a warden they haven't paid for, may be a few with necro's due to the Zos mistake when elsweyr launched but they are few and far between. I got them when I bought the expansions, same as I got extra skill lines when buying other expansions.
Some games charge for expansions, others don't.
The other MMO I've played is definitely p2w. That was Runescape. In order to access all skills and all zones you had to pay a monthly membership fee. F2p players were limited in the skills they could use and the areas they could visit, they were unable to use or obtain the best gear. The only way to get it was to pay. That's p2w.
Eso does not fit that definition. You can access all dlc's by purchasing them with gold from other players, same as you can the new classes. Zos run multiple eso+ events during the year allowing those without it to access all dlc's for a limited period. At that point a player who wants monster sets, for instance, can spend the whole weekend doing vet dlc dungeons to get as many as they can, and with the stickerbook they no longer need to get 8 zaans helmets in the weekend, they can get one and then reconstruct the rest that they need.
So no. Its not p2w, but I don't expect a single person who thinks it is to change their mind.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Craft Bag says hi.
Also, for the record, I don't believe it's pay to win.
If you can win Emperor, get on the leaderboards for pvp, get a record for fastest run through a trial because you have the craft bag, I need to do a ticket, because I've had it since it started, and *none* of my characters has been emperor yet, let alone any of the other things.
What about the ones that have crafting as their end game? They enjoy getting patterns etc, crafting furnishings etc, and that's what they play for? Craft bag is definitely p2w for crafters, because craftbag gives a significant advantage.
Same about stranglers before nerf, and now ring of the pale order. Significant advantage behind pay wall is p2w.
Still no. Before the craft bag started, before the extra bank space from ESO+, there were crafters. It involved making alts for space and doing a lot of inventory shuffle games, but it was doable. Again, besides making things easier, what "significant advantage" does the crafting bag give? What about the console players who can make free alt accounts, and get a private guild bank? What kind of "significant advantage" would that give? You can and many people have played crafters without the crafting bag. ZOS even helps with that; people wait for a free weekend and cram everything they can into the free for the weekend craft bag and load the extra bank space, then wait for the next free weekend to do it again.
Minus the private guild bank, this is what I do since I don't subscribe, but I do farm and craft a lot. The Crafting Bag is a significant convenience as a time saver from inventory management, but that's the main benefit.
I realize some people will say that paying for convenience is indeed pay to win, but I'm not one of them.2 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
"I'm still not seeing the point" is exactly why I keep responding, well that and you keep responding. Secondly, I have said nothing that is insult worthy, so not sure why you are getting upset. Perhaps you are reading the incorrect emption into my words.VaranisArano wrote: »Raideen, I said I didn't think there was any point to continuing the argument, and frankly, I'm still not seeing the point. You're getting a little insulting and its just not worth fighting over.
Base game and chapters should be charged for (like other games do it, well except Hello Games and No Mans Sky). If someone is opting into ESO+ (a subscription) everything available in the crown store should be able to be obtained in game by doing content. It is absolutely ridiculous, and extremely greedy for a company to charge a retail copy, a sub (sub IS required for crafting contrary to what you say, and everyone knows this), and the insane prices in the crown store, on TOP of gamble crates. Blizzard Entertainment charges and has charged $14.99 USD since 2004 to access their game. Everything in game is available to the player for the price of the retail copy (base or expansions) and the sub. If a player chooses NOT to sub, they can purchase a game token for 30 days for in game gold. This is an ethical business model. Its upfront, and the player knows what they are getting. When I started ESO I did not know I would not get cool mounts in game, or cool pets. I did not know that I would have to pay for DLC throughout the year on top of a yearly chapter on top of 15 a month to craft because bag space is paltry and their are 400+ crafting items in game alone. None of this is up front, and some of it is very misleading.VaranisArano wrote: »There's only one point I'm still a little confused on. The "free" thing.
You said: "Every single item in the crown store should be available in game, acquired by playing the game, for the base price of the retail copy."
The retail copy of ESO, base game, is like $10, right?
So if I understand you correctly, you want everything that ZOS currently sells for extra money to be added into the retail copy of ESO, still for $10.
How is that NOT wanting the DLC, Chapter, and all other cosmetic items that you would otherwise pay money for to become free? Sure, you have to buy the game for $10, but all that extra stuff is now a freebie tacked on to the same cost of the base game.
I expect ZOS to treat their customers ethically. Blizzard can make money hand over fist for 15 bucks a month, Hello Games is making money hand over fist for retail box copies alone with No Many Sky, how come ZOS has to charge a retail copy, AND 15 a month, AND gamble crates to get cool mounts because they are not offered in game, AND DLC? Its pure greed.VaranisArano wrote: »Or were you expecting ZOS to jack up the price on the retail copy to account for all the things they are no longer charging extra money for, and just didn't say so? In that case, what do you expect the cost of the base game to go up to once ZOS adds in all the items they are adding to the game for sale? I mean, the 3 Quarterly DLC + Greymoor work out to just shy of $80 for this year alone if you buy them for real money.
If you read through my posts and take the lesson as a whole, and not cherry pick sentences, it makes lot more sense.VaranisArano wrote: »So I guess I'm confused about how we get from "Every single item in the crown store should be available in game, acquired by playing the game, for the base price of the retail copy." To "I never asked for anything for free." Unless we are paying the price ZOS would otherwise be charging us for those items in the retail copy price, we're either talking freebies tacked onto the base game retail price or a very, very deep discount. Right?
There is nothing to be confused about.
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Megatto✭✭✭✭✭I'd say it's more pay to collect as most collectibles such as mounts and pets can only be obtained in the crown store and from loot boxes.Remove loot boxes or riot2 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.
There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.
Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.
Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.
There are gold sinks because the gold supply is infinite. That's the entire point of gold sinks - to try to remove some of the Constantly Increasing Pile Of Gold™ back out of the economy, so there isn't runaway inflation. If the gold supply wasn't infinite, there would be no reason at all to have gold sinks.
The gold supply is infinite, the gold available in game is not. Gold comes in when someone loots a mob, gold goes out in repairs, houses, skill changes, guild traders (that eat literally billions) amongst other things.
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Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.
There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.
Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.
Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.
When a player harvests and sells tempars/wax/rosin/platings, or sells armor, or gets paid for running someone through a dungeon, the gold is being exchanged, or transferring hands, it is NOT created.
There is not a single gold looting activity in this game that will allow a single to amass the millions necessary to purchase crown crates during the duration of their sale.
way to misunderstand gold sinks.
the reason they exist is BECAUSE gold generation from gameplay IS infinite. if you don't have something to take it back out - we will drown in gold and inflation.
I understand it just fine. What you and others are missing out is that the amount of gold available IN game at any point in time IS finite, it is not infinite.1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.
There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.
Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.
Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.
When a player harvests and sells tempars/wax/rosin/platings, or sells armor, or gets paid for running someone through a dungeon, the gold is being exchanged, or transferring hands, it is NOT created.
There is not a single gold looting activity in this game that will allow a single to amass the millions necessary to purchase crown crates during the duration of their sale.
You are 100% dead wrong. You think gold sinks are the exact opposite of what gold sinks actually are.
But hey, we'll roll with it. The gold in ESO is finite. So tell me, at what point to the vendors stop buying your items? Is there a daily limit of a couple million gold? At what point during the day/week/month do the NPCs stop giving money?
No I am not wrong. I am 100% correct. The gold supply of ESO is infinite meaning that gold comes in at no cost. But gold sinks also take that gold out of the game.
However, the amount of gold that can be EXCHANGED from one player to another at any point in time IS FINITE. Players can not create gold out of thin air. Gold exchange is what is necessary for players to purchase crowns. When a player hands you gold for crowns, that gold is not made out of thin air for the crown seller, its exchanged. The gold is MOVED, not created. This is the point. Not all players in game can simultaneously purchase the large amounts of crowns necessary to give legitimacy to the idea that "you dont have to pay for crowns with IRL money". That statement can only be true if its the same for all players, but the amount of gold available in game does not allow for that, because the exchange supply of gold is finite.4 -
VoxAdActa✭✭✭✭✭No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.
There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.
Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.
Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.
When a player harvests and sells tempars/wax/rosin/platings, or sells armor, or gets paid for running someone through a dungeon, the gold is being exchanged, or transferring hands, it is NOT created.
There is not a single gold looting activity in this game that will allow a single to amass the millions necessary to purchase crown crates during the duration of their sale.
You are 100% dead wrong. You think gold sinks are the exact opposite of what gold sinks actually are.
But hey, we'll roll with it. The gold in ESO is finite. So tell me, at what point to the vendors stop buying your items? Is there a daily limit of a couple million gold? At what point during the day/week/month do the NPCs stop giving money?
No I am not wrong. I am 100% correct. The gold supply of ESO is infinite meaning that gold comes in at no cost. But gold sinks also take that gold out of the game.
However, the amount of gold that can be EXCHANGED from one player to another at any point in time IS FINITE. Players can not create gold out of thin air. Gold exchange is what is necessary for players to purchase crowns. When a player hands you gold for crowns, that gold is not made out of thin air for the crown seller, its exchanged. The gold is MOVED, not created. This is the point. Not all players in game can simultaneously purchase the large amounts of crowns necessary to give legitimacy to the idea that "you dont have to pay for crowns with IRL money". That statement can only be true if its the same for all players, but the amount of gold available in game does not allow for that, because the exchange supply of gold is finite.
Killing a mob is literally the players creating gold out of thin air.1 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.
There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.
Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.
Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.
When a player harvests and sells tempars/wax/rosin/platings, or sells armor, or gets paid for running someone through a dungeon, the gold is being exchanged, or transferring hands, it is NOT created.
There is not a single gold looting activity in this game that will allow a single to amass the millions necessary to purchase crown crates during the duration of their sale.
way to misunderstand gold sinks.
the reason they exist is BECAUSE gold generation from gameplay IS infinite. if you don't have something to take it back out - we will drown in gold and inflation.
I understand it just fine. What you and others are missing out is that the amount of gold available IN game at any point in time IS finite, it is not infinite.
and what YOU are not understanding is that nothing, absolutely NOTHING other then available time that is stopping you from adding to this amount. you can keep looting items and selling them to vendors you can farm 24/7 if you are so inclined and the vendors will not tell you to stop vendoring. stealing has individual character limits per day, but stealing is not the only source of gold. I mean... there are infinite thieves guild missions that you can just keep doing... and doing... and doing for laundered vendor trash so its not even subject to fence limits. what gold currently exists in game has NO bearing on any individuals ability to generate more gold through gameplay. so you can literally just generate enough gold to exchange with other players - out of thin air. you are NOT limited by existing in game gold. you. can make. MORE.Edited by Linaleah on 12 December 2020 03:19dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
Minyassa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭In no way is it pay to win. Why do I say that? Because I am a man of little to zero patience, and I get very frustrated very easily and on a bad day if there was a way I could throw PayPal at something to get an achievement over with or unlock a dye, I 100% would. But I have yet to discover one single thing in the crown store that has ever saved me a headache or been the solution to something that made me have to step away from the keyboard and cool down. I am an emotional weirdo who stresses out fast and there is nothing to buy in this game that would help me to win because if there was I would've already bought it. True facts.2 -
Inaya1✭✭✭As an old and experienced player, I'll be honest.
There is no pay to win. There is no such thing as - you go into the crownstore, buy the sword of "Armageddon" and would kill everyone.
However, there is paywall here. You will not be able to master the new content efficiently if you go through it at all with the old equipment that can be obtained as standard in the game. Any effective equipment you can get in DLC trials as well as DLC dungeons where you have to buy add-ons to get it.
In pvp, this gap is even stronger, without DLC sets from dungeons you are powerless. They are so strong that you can destroy crowds of players with them and take damage from a crowd of players.
At the same time, of course, the skill of the game greatly influences here. But I will tell you this, no matter what skill player you are, whether in PvE or PvP, in most cases, without DLC sets, you will in most cases lose any battle against a strong player or v.DLC trial Bosses.
Simply put, there is an "average skill ceiling" that you can reach, but you will not go further until you spend your money on dlc to improve these moments.
And about the payruns here is a little different. The general skill of the community has seriously dropped after all the recent changes. Most of the old players have left, and many completely incomprehensible newcomers have come who do not even understand what to do, and even more so do not want to know it. Therefore, all they can do is just buy a payruns and forget about all the trials and dungeons.. And the people who make these payruns, they consider just a "super-duper skill player" to whose skill your gap is from the point where you stand, to the place where the same super-player the size of the ocean. Of course, here many people get depressed from this, because these are years of spent game and simply unattainable things. And I agree with this, although I myself am one of those people who have closed all the content. But here the fault is not ours, but the ZOS with their politicsEdited by Inaya1 on 12 December 2020 04:330 -
jircris11✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pay to win is when you pay the developers real money for the stuff that gives you an edge in a fight. When you pay for carry runs, you give gold to other players. It's not pay to win.
Nice to see someone who understands p2w. Moble games are the best example of it tbh.IGN: Ki'rah
Khajiit/Vampire
DC/AD faction/NA server.
RPer1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.
There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.
Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.
Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.
When a player harvests and sells tempars/wax/rosin/platings, or sells armor, or gets paid for running someone through a dungeon, the gold is being exchanged, or transferring hands, it is NOT created.
There is not a single gold looting activity in this game that will allow a single to amass the millions necessary to purchase crown crates during the duration of their sale.
You are 100% dead wrong. You think gold sinks are the exact opposite of what gold sinks actually are.
But hey, we'll roll with it. The gold in ESO is finite. So tell me, at what point to the vendors stop buying your items? Is there a daily limit of a couple million gold? At what point during the day/week/month do the NPCs stop giving money?
No I am not wrong. I am 100% correct. The gold supply of ESO is infinite meaning that gold comes in at no cost. But gold sinks also take that gold out of the game.
However, the amount of gold that can be EXCHANGED from one player to another at any point in time IS FINITE. Players can not create gold out of thin air. Gold exchange is what is necessary for players to purchase crowns. When a player hands you gold for crowns, that gold is not made out of thin air for the crown seller, its exchanged. The gold is MOVED, not created. This is the point. Not all players in game can simultaneously purchase the large amounts of crowns necessary to give legitimacy to the idea that "you dont have to pay for crowns with IRL money". That statement can only be true if its the same for all players, but the amount of gold available in game does not allow for that, because the exchange supply of gold is finite.
Killing a mob is literally the players creating gold out of thin air.
And paying for repairs is literally taking gold out of the game.2 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
and what YOU are not understanding is that there is LITTERALLY NOT ENOUGH TIME in the day for a player to kill/collect enough gold to sustain all of the necessary purchases in the crown store to put this game on par with the monetization model of other MMORPGS.and what YOU are not understanding is that nothing, absolutely NOTHING other then available time that is stopping you from adding to this amount.
No you can not farm 24/7 to get enough told this way. You can literally die if you try doing so.you can keep looting items and selling them to vendors you can farm 24/7 if you are so inclined and the vendors will not tell you to stop vendoring.
and none of this will allow the player to make the LITERAL millions of gold needed to sustain the player through the crown store.stealing has individual character limits per day, but stealing is not the only source of gold. I mean... there are infinite thieves guild missions that you can just keep doing... and doing... and doing for laundered vendor trash so its not even subject to fence limits.
Your entire argument is moot because you never ONCE addressed the context of the argument.what gold currently exists in game has NO bearing on any individuals ability to generate more gold through gameplay. so you can literally just generate enough gold to exchange with other players - out of thin air. you are NOT limited by existing in game gold. you. can make. MORE.
Edited by Raideen on 12 December 2020 22:042 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
and what YOU are not understanding is that there is LITTERALLY NOT ENOUGH TIME in the day for a player to kill/collect enough gold to sustain all of the necessary purchases in the crown store to put this game on par with the monetization model of other MMORPGS.and what YOU are not understanding is that nothing, absolutely NOTHING other then available time that is stopping you from adding to this amount.
No you can not farm 24/7 to get enough told this way. You can literally die if you try doing so.you can keep looting items and selling them to vendors you can farm 24/7 if you are so inclined and the vendors will not tell you to stop vendoring.
and none of this will allow the player to make the LITERAL millions of gold needed to sustain the player through the crown store.stealing has individual character limits per day, but stealing is not the only source of gold. I mean... there are infinite thieves guild missions that you can just keep doing... and doing... and doing for laundered vendor trash so its not even subject to fence limits.
Your entire argument is moot because you never ONCE addressed the context of the argument.what gold currently exists in game has NO bearing on any individuals ability to generate more gold through gameplay. so you can literally just generate enough gold to exchange with other players - out of thin air. you are NOT limited by existing in game gold. you. can make. MORE.
context of the argument is that yes you CAN make the gold. yes you CAN generate it. yes you CAN make enough to make a good number of crown purchases via gold. i mean.. i did. and I don't even farm extensively at all. I farm occasionally for specific things, get bored after less then an hour and move on to something else, and i STILl end up with enough stuff to get me more then enough gold. does it happen fast? now. can you afford EVERYTHING in crown store? absolutely not, and neither can you do so in other games, unless you are a gold making savant. does it make it pay to win? ABSOLUTELY NOT. cosmetics are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. no matter how much you try to insist otherwise, they are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. they are cosmetics. they have no bearing on player power
why? because even when you look at things that are convenience based that do have bearing on player power? you can still just earn them in game. for less total time investment than it would take to make enough gold to buy them via crown store.
the context of your argument is apparently just becasue you cannot buy 100% of all things, its pay to win? that is not even in the same city, let alone ballpark of pay to win. in a game where through gameplay ALONE, WITHOUT having to farm 24/7 or even having max level characters, let alone high CP characters - you can make enough gold to purchase a DLC within a week of farming few hours a day each day? what is your context about limited gold again?dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***3 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.
There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.
Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.
Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.
When a player harvests and sells tempars/wax/rosin/platings, or sells armor, or gets paid for running someone through a dungeon, the gold is being exchanged, or transferring hands, it is NOT created.
There is not a single gold looting activity in this game that will allow a single to amass the millions necessary to purchase crown crates during the duration of their sale.
You are 100% dead wrong. You think gold sinks are the exact opposite of what gold sinks actually are.
But hey, we'll roll with it. The gold in ESO is finite. So tell me, at what point to the vendors stop buying your items? Is there a daily limit of a couple million gold? At what point during the day/week/month do the NPCs stop giving money?
No I am not wrong. I am 100% correct. The gold supply of ESO is infinite meaning that gold comes in at no cost. But gold sinks also take that gold out of the game.
However, the amount of gold that can be EXCHANGED from one player to another at any point in time IS FINITE. Players can not create gold out of thin air. Gold exchange is what is necessary for players to purchase crowns. When a player hands you gold for crowns, that gold is not made out of thin air for the crown seller, its exchanged. The gold is MOVED, not created. This is the point. Not all players in game can simultaneously purchase the large amounts of crowns necessary to give legitimacy to the idea that "you dont have to pay for crowns with IRL money". That statement can only be true if its the same for all players, but the amount of gold available in game does not allow for that, because the exchange supply of gold is finite.
Killing a mob is literally the players creating gold out of thin air.
And paying for repairs is literally taking gold out of the game.
yes, it does. unless you do crafting dailies and repair with kits instead. which is what you SHOULD be doing anyways, if making gold is such an issue.
and that taking gold out of the game? is the reason WHY its STILL POSSIBLE to farm enough gold to buy things you want. why you ask? becasue the more gold there is in circulation - the less WORTH it has. to the point where it does become impossible to just farm up enough gold. gold sinks we have? are the reason why your argument and your context is MOOT. those gold sinks keep the exchange prices DOWN.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
and what YOU are not understanding is that there is LITTERALLY NOT ENOUGH TIME in the day for a player to kill/collect enough gold to sustain all of the necessary purchases in the crown store to put this game on par with the monetization model of other MMORPGS.and what YOU are not understanding is that nothing, absolutely NOTHING other then available time that is stopping you from adding to this amount.
No you can not farm 24/7 to get enough told this way. You can literally die if you try doing so.you can keep looting items and selling them to vendors you can farm 24/7 if you are so inclined and the vendors will not tell you to stop vendoring.
and none of this will allow the player to make the LITERAL millions of gold needed to sustain the player through the crown store.stealing has individual character limits per day, but stealing is not the only source of gold. I mean... there are infinite thieves guild missions that you can just keep doing... and doing... and doing for laundered vendor trash so its not even subject to fence limits.
Your entire argument is moot because you never ONCE addressed the context of the argument.what gold currently exists in game has NO bearing on any individuals ability to generate more gold through gameplay. so you can literally just generate enough gold to exchange with other players - out of thin air. you are NOT limited by existing in game gold. you. can make. MORE.
context of the argument is that yes you CAN make the gold. yes you CAN generate it. yes you CAN make enough to make a good number of crown purchases via gold. i mean.. i did. and I don't even farm extensively at all. I farm occasionally for specific things, get bored after less then an hour and move on to something else, and i STILl end up with enough stuff to get me more then enough gold. does it happen fast? now. can you afford EVERYTHING in crown store? absolutely not, and neither can you do so in other games, unless you are a gold making savant. does it make it pay to win? ABSOLUTELY NOT. cosmetics are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. no matter how much you try to insist otherwise, they are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. they are cosmetics. they have no bearing on player power
why? because even when you look at things that are convenience based that do have bearing on player power? you can still just earn them in game. for less total time investment than it would take to make enough gold to buy them via crown store.
the context of your argument is apparently just becasue you cannot buy 100% of all things, its pay to win? that is not even in the same city, let alone ballpark of pay to win. in a game where through gameplay ALONE, WITHOUT having to farm 24/7 or even having max level characters, let alone high CP characters - you can make enough gold to purchase a DLC within a week of farming few hours a day each day? what is your context about limited gold again?
cosmetics r pay to win in mmorpgs
no one can just make gold from mobs to make millions. u r wong"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No, its not. There is not an infinite amount of gold, as I already stated. Just like real life, not everyone in game can be a multi millionaire. There literally is not enough gold to go around.
There is, LITERALLY, an infinite amount of gold in ESO. As in, not "a whole lot of gold that may as well be infinite", but very literally an infinite amount of gold. Crafting writs don't stop paying out, monsters don't stop handing over their lunch money, vendors don't have a lockbox with a set amount of cash in it, and chests don't stop spawning.
Your entire position rests on the idea that there is a finite amount of gold in ESO, and that could not possibly be less true.
Incorrect. This is why game devs in every game that has an economy implement "gold sinks", I am sure you have heard of the term. These are designed to take gold out of the economy.
When a player harvests and sells tempars/wax/rosin/platings, or sells armor, or gets paid for running someone through a dungeon, the gold is being exchanged, or transferring hands, it is NOT created.
There is not a single gold looting activity in this game that will allow a single to amass the millions necessary to purchase crown crates during the duration of their sale.
You are 100% dead wrong. You think gold sinks are the exact opposite of what gold sinks actually are.
But hey, we'll roll with it. The gold in ESO is finite. So tell me, at what point to the vendors stop buying your items? Is there a daily limit of a couple million gold? At what point during the day/week/month do the NPCs stop giving money?
No I am not wrong. I am 100% correct. The gold supply of ESO is infinite meaning that gold comes in at no cost. But gold sinks also take that gold out of the game.
However, the amount of gold that can be EXCHANGED from one player to another at any point in time IS FINITE. Players can not create gold out of thin air. Gold exchange is what is necessary for players to purchase crowns. When a player hands you gold for crowns, that gold is not made out of thin air for the crown seller, its exchanged. The gold is MOVED, not created. This is the point. Not all players in game can simultaneously purchase the large amounts of crowns necessary to give legitimacy to the idea that "you dont have to pay for crowns with IRL money". That statement can only be true if its the same for all players, but the amount of gold available in game does not allow for that, because the exchange supply of gold is finite.
Killing a mob is literally the players creating gold out of thin air.
And paying for repairs is literally taking gold out of the game.
yes, it does. unless you do crafting dailies and repair with kits instead. which is what you SHOULD be doing anyways, if making gold is such an issue.
and that taking gold out of the game? is the reason WHY its STILL POSSIBLE to farm enough gold to buy things you want. why you ask? becasue the more gold there is in circulation - the less WORTH it has. to the point where it does become impossible to just farm up enough gold. gold sinks we have? are the reason why your argument and your context is MOOT. those gold sinks keep the exchange prices DOWN.
actually he is right, u r not
"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
and what YOU are not understanding is that there is LITTERALLY NOT ENOUGH TIME in the day for a player to kill/collect enough gold to sustain all of the necessary purchases in the crown store to put this game on par with the monetization model of other MMORPGS.and what YOU are not understanding is that nothing, absolutely NOTHING other then available time that is stopping you from adding to this amount.
No you can not farm 24/7 to get enough told this way. You can literally die if you try doing so.you can keep looting items and selling them to vendors you can farm 24/7 if you are so inclined and the vendors will not tell you to stop vendoring.
and none of this will allow the player to make the LITERAL millions of gold needed to sustain the player through the crown store.stealing has individual character limits per day, but stealing is not the only source of gold. I mean... there are infinite thieves guild missions that you can just keep doing... and doing... and doing for laundered vendor trash so its not even subject to fence limits.
Your entire argument is moot because you never ONCE addressed the context of the argument.what gold currently exists in game has NO bearing on any individuals ability to generate more gold through gameplay. so you can literally just generate enough gold to exchange with other players - out of thin air. you are NOT limited by existing in game gold. you. can make. MORE.
context of the argument is that yes you CAN make the gold. yes you CAN generate it. yes you CAN make enough to make a good number of crown purchases via gold. i mean.. i did. and I don't even farm extensively at all. I farm occasionally for specific things, get bored after less then an hour and move on to something else, and i STILl end up with enough stuff to get me more then enough gold. does it happen fast? now. can you afford EVERYTHING in crown store? absolutely not, and neither can you do so in other games, unless you are a gold making savant. does it make it pay to win? ABSOLUTELY NOT. cosmetics are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. no matter how much you try to insist otherwise, they are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. they are cosmetics. they have no bearing on player power
why? because even when you look at things that are convenience based that do have bearing on player power? you can still just earn them in game. for less total time investment than it would take to make enough gold to buy them via crown store.
the context of your argument is apparently just becasue you cannot buy 100% of all things, its pay to win? that is not even in the same city, let alone ballpark of pay to win. in a game where through gameplay ALONE, WITHOUT having to farm 24/7 or even having max level characters, let alone high CP characters - you can make enough gold to purchase a DLC within a week of farming few hours a day each day? what is your context about limited gold again?
cosmetics r pay to win in mmorpgs
no one can just make gold from mobs to make millions. u r wong
Lol, they can make millions of gold by farming mats and doing daily writs, no need for mob farming.0 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
and what YOU are not understanding is that there is LITTERALLY NOT ENOUGH TIME in the day for a player to kill/collect enough gold to sustain all of the necessary purchases in the crown store to put this game on par with the monetization model of other MMORPGS.and what YOU are not understanding is that nothing, absolutely NOTHING other then available time that is stopping you from adding to this amount.
No you can not farm 24/7 to get enough told this way. You can literally die if you try doing so.you can keep looting items and selling them to vendors you can farm 24/7 if you are so inclined and the vendors will not tell you to stop vendoring.
and none of this will allow the player to make the LITERAL millions of gold needed to sustain the player through the crown store.stealing has individual character limits per day, but stealing is not the only source of gold. I mean... there are infinite thieves guild missions that you can just keep doing... and doing... and doing for laundered vendor trash so its not even subject to fence limits.
Your entire argument is moot because you never ONCE addressed the context of the argument.what gold currently exists in game has NO bearing on any individuals ability to generate more gold through gameplay. so you can literally just generate enough gold to exchange with other players - out of thin air. you are NOT limited by existing in game gold. you. can make. MORE.
context of the argument is that yes you CAN make the gold. yes you CAN generate it. yes you CAN make enough to make a good number of crown purchases via gold. i mean.. i did. and I don't even farm extensively at all. I farm occasionally for specific things, get bored after less then an hour and move on to something else, and i STILl end up with enough stuff to get me more then enough gold. does it happen fast? now. can you afford EVERYTHING in crown store? absolutely not, and neither can you do so in other games, unless you are a gold making savant. does it make it pay to win? ABSOLUTELY NOT. cosmetics are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. no matter how much you try to insist otherwise, they are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. they are cosmetics. they have no bearing on player power
why? because even when you look at things that are convenience based that do have bearing on player power? you can still just earn them in game. for less total time investment than it would take to make enough gold to buy them via crown store.
the context of your argument is apparently just becasue you cannot buy 100% of all things, its pay to win? that is not even in the same city, let alone ballpark of pay to win. in a game where through gameplay ALONE, WITHOUT having to farm 24/7 or even having max level characters, let alone high CP characters - you can make enough gold to purchase a DLC within a week of farming few hours a day each day? what is your context about limited gold again?
cosmetics r pay to win in mmorpgs
no one can just make gold from mobs to make millions. u r wong
Lol, they can make millions of gold by farming mats and doing daily writs, no need for mob farming.
You are not addressing your argument per the context.1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
and what YOU are not understanding is that there is LITTERALLY NOT ENOUGH TIME in the day for a player to kill/collect enough gold to sustain all of the necessary purchases in the crown store to put this game on par with the monetization model of other MMORPGS.and what YOU are not understanding is that nothing, absolutely NOTHING other then available time that is stopping you from adding to this amount.
No you can not farm 24/7 to get enough told this way. You can literally die if you try doing so.you can keep looting items and selling them to vendors you can farm 24/7 if you are so inclined and the vendors will not tell you to stop vendoring.
and none of this will allow the player to make the LITERAL millions of gold needed to sustain the player through the crown store.stealing has individual character limits per day, but stealing is not the only source of gold. I mean... there are infinite thieves guild missions that you can just keep doing... and doing... and doing for laundered vendor trash so its not even subject to fence limits.
Your entire argument is moot because you never ONCE addressed the context of the argument.what gold currently exists in game has NO bearing on any individuals ability to generate more gold through gameplay. so you can literally just generate enough gold to exchange with other players - out of thin air. you are NOT limited by existing in game gold. you. can make. MORE.
context of the argument is that yes you CAN make the gold. yes you CAN generate it. yes you CAN make enough to make a good number of crown purchases via gold. i mean.. i did. and I don't even farm extensively at all. I farm occasionally for specific things, get bored after less then an hour and move on to something else, and i STILl end up with enough stuff to get me more then enough gold. does it happen fast? now. can you afford EVERYTHING in crown store? absolutely not, and neither can you do so in other games, unless you are a gold making savant. does it make it pay to win? ABSOLUTELY NOT. cosmetics are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. no matter how much you try to insist otherwise, they are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. they are cosmetics. they have no bearing on player power
why? because even when you look at things that are convenience based that do have bearing on player power? you can still just earn them in game. for less total time investment than it would take to make enough gold to buy them via crown store.
the context of your argument is apparently just becasue you cannot buy 100% of all things, its pay to win? that is not even in the same city, let alone ballpark of pay to win. in a game where through gameplay ALONE, WITHOUT having to farm 24/7 or even having max level characters, let alone high CP characters - you can make enough gold to purchase a DLC within a week of farming few hours a day each day? what is your context about limited gold again?
No, you still miss the context. In order to suggest (as others have) that the game does not require anyone to purchase crowns, that the ENTIRE game can be had with gold alone, is a fallacy. It is 100% impossible for the entire player base to purchase the entirety of ESO with gold alone. This is the argument.2 -
VoxAdActa✭✭✭✭✭
and what YOU are not understanding is that there is LITTERALLY NOT ENOUGH TIME in the day for a player to kill/collect enough gold to sustain all of the necessary purchases in the crown store to put this game on par with the monetization model of other MMORPGS.and what YOU are not understanding is that nothing, absolutely NOTHING other then available time that is stopping you from adding to this amount.
No you can not farm 24/7 to get enough told this way. You can literally die if you try doing so.you can keep looting items and selling them to vendors you can farm 24/7 if you are so inclined and the vendors will not tell you to stop vendoring.
and none of this will allow the player to make the LITERAL millions of gold needed to sustain the player through the crown store.stealing has individual character limits per day, but stealing is not the only source of gold. I mean... there are infinite thieves guild missions that you can just keep doing... and doing... and doing for laundered vendor trash so its not even subject to fence limits.
Your entire argument is moot because you never ONCE addressed the context of the argument.what gold currently exists in game has NO bearing on any individuals ability to generate more gold through gameplay. so you can literally just generate enough gold to exchange with other players - out of thin air. you are NOT limited by existing in game gold. you. can make. MORE.
context of the argument is that yes you CAN make the gold. yes you CAN generate it. yes you CAN make enough to make a good number of crown purchases via gold. i mean.. i did. and I don't even farm extensively at all. I farm occasionally for specific things, get bored after less then an hour and move on to something else, and i STILl end up with enough stuff to get me more then enough gold. does it happen fast? now. can you afford EVERYTHING in crown store? absolutely not, and neither can you do so in other games, unless you are a gold making savant. does it make it pay to win? ABSOLUTELY NOT. cosmetics are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. no matter how much you try to insist otherwise, they are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. they are cosmetics. they have no bearing on player power
why? because even when you look at things that are convenience based that do have bearing on player power? you can still just earn them in game. for less total time investment than it would take to make enough gold to buy them via crown store.
the context of your argument is apparently just becasue you cannot buy 100% of all things, its pay to win? that is not even in the same city, let alone ballpark of pay to win. in a game where through gameplay ALONE, WITHOUT having to farm 24/7 or even having max level characters, let alone high CP characters - you can make enough gold to purchase a DLC within a week of farming few hours a day each day? what is your context about limited gold again?
No, you still miss the context. In order to suggest (as others have) that the game does not require anyone to purchase crowns, that the ENTIRE game can be had with gold alone, is a fallacy. It is 100% impossible for the entire player base to purchase the entirety of ESO with gold alone. This is the argument.
You have yet to explain what specific mechanism prevents some people from making enough gold to buy things, while still allowing other people to do just that, even though everyone starts out at exactly the same place with exactly the same opportunities. How do you think the first guy who made a million gold did it? Do you believe the devs said "Hey, we like you, here's a million gold that we took from everyone else who's playing rn"?
You can't make gold because you have to repair your gear? Seriously? You can't make more money than it takes to repair your stuff? Are you level 6? I make 3x my repair costs just doing zone quests for a couple hours. How are you even playing this game, that you can't make 500g in a full day of playtime? And more importantly, how is it our fault you can't make more than 500g in a full day of playtime? Nobody else has that problem. That is 100% a "you"-specific problem.
The gold is literally created out of thin air, and (except for your specific, unique, baffling circumstance, I guess) we all can create gold faster than we're forced to spend it. That's how we get a couple million gold in the bank before we're 810CP. That's how it happens. That's the ONLY WAY it happens. The gold is literally infinite. There is no reason you can't do your daily crafting writs every day and eventually buy a 13k crown house with it. Literally no reason except you CHOOSE not to spend the time to do it. That, again, is not a system problem, it's a you problem.
You think ESO is p2w? Tell you what. Go play Neverwinter for a couple hours so you can see what actual p2w games look like, then come back here. To start with, ESO lets you buy all the extra classes with in-game gold. Neverwinter charges you $50 each.3 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭..repairs is one of the least effective gold sinks in the game. It's almost meaningless. You make gold much faster, doing just about anything, than you spend in repairs.
(well, I suppose if all you do is spend your time dying repeatedly... /shrug)
edit: ESO is only pay to win, if you have no idea what pay to win actually means.Edited by Kiralyn2000 on 13 December 2020 00:003 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
and what YOU are not understanding is that there is LITTERALLY NOT ENOUGH TIME in the day for a player to kill/collect enough gold to sustain all of the necessary purchases in the crown store to put this game on par with the monetization model of other MMORPGS.and what YOU are not understanding is that nothing, absolutely NOTHING other then available time that is stopping you from adding to this amount.
No you can not farm 24/7 to get enough told this way. You can literally die if you try doing so.you can keep looting items and selling them to vendors you can farm 24/7 if you are so inclined and the vendors will not tell you to stop vendoring.
and none of this will allow the player to make the LITERAL millions of gold needed to sustain the player through the crown store.stealing has individual character limits per day, but stealing is not the only source of gold. I mean... there are infinite thieves guild missions that you can just keep doing... and doing... and doing for laundered vendor trash so its not even subject to fence limits.
Your entire argument is moot because you never ONCE addressed the context of the argument.what gold currently exists in game has NO bearing on any individuals ability to generate more gold through gameplay. so you can literally just generate enough gold to exchange with other players - out of thin air. you are NOT limited by existing in game gold. you. can make. MORE.
context of the argument is that yes you CAN make the gold. yes you CAN generate it. yes you CAN make enough to make a good number of crown purchases via gold. i mean.. i did. and I don't even farm extensively at all. I farm occasionally for specific things, get bored after less then an hour and move on to something else, and i STILl end up with enough stuff to get me more then enough gold. does it happen fast? now. can you afford EVERYTHING in crown store? absolutely not, and neither can you do so in other games, unless you are a gold making savant. does it make it pay to win? ABSOLUTELY NOT. cosmetics are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. no matter how much you try to insist otherwise, they are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. they are cosmetics. they have no bearing on player power
why? because even when you look at things that are convenience based that do have bearing on player power? you can still just earn them in game. for less total time investment than it would take to make enough gold to buy them via crown store.
the context of your argument is apparently just becasue you cannot buy 100% of all things, its pay to win? that is not even in the same city, let alone ballpark of pay to win. in a game where through gameplay ALONE, WITHOUT having to farm 24/7 or even having max level characters, let alone high CP characters - you can make enough gold to purchase a DLC within a week of farming few hours a day each day? what is your context about limited gold again?
cosmetics r pay to win in mmorpgs
no one can just make gold from mobs to make millions. u r wong
I must have hallucinated personaly making millions of mobs then.
and no, honey, cosmetics are NOT pay to win. the closest ESO comes to pay to win is buying skill lines with crowns and even then, it requires that first you unlock them by leveling at least one character to max in those skill lines. and even then - you could just level them in game like normal people and unlike something like neverwinter its very VERY doable in a decent amount of time.
don't even get me started on boons in neverwinter, or upgrading gear. I still remember when coalescent wards that make your upgrades 100% successful - could only be bought from cash shop, and without them, you had 2% chance for an upgrade per try. and you think horse leveling in ESO is bad? Neverwinter is far FAR worse in many ways. and then there are companions. BIS companions last I checked - exclusively cash shop, and many of them are exclusively from gambling boxes (Neverwinter gambling boxes make ESO's crate look positively benign in comparison) and you are literally barred from content if you don't jump through all those hoops, because it won't let you queue up unless you gear is at a certain score and every single one of these things - your gear, your runes, your companion and THEIR runes, the level of your horse and THEIR gear and last but not least - your boons, contribute to your gearscore.
you all have no idea what pay to win actualy means.Edited by Linaleah on 13 December 2020 00:14dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***3 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
and what YOU are not understanding is that there is LITTERALLY NOT ENOUGH TIME in the day for a player to kill/collect enough gold to sustain all of the necessary purchases in the crown store to put this game on par with the monetization model of other MMORPGS.and what YOU are not understanding is that nothing, absolutely NOTHING other then available time that is stopping you from adding to this amount.
No you can not farm 24/7 to get enough told this way. You can literally die if you try doing so.you can keep looting items and selling them to vendors you can farm 24/7 if you are so inclined and the vendors will not tell you to stop vendoring.
and none of this will allow the player to make the LITERAL millions of gold needed to sustain the player through the crown store.stealing has individual character limits per day, but stealing is not the only source of gold. I mean... there are infinite thieves guild missions that you can just keep doing... and doing... and doing for laundered vendor trash so its not even subject to fence limits.
Your entire argument is moot because you never ONCE addressed the context of the argument.what gold currently exists in game has NO bearing on any individuals ability to generate more gold through gameplay. so you can literally just generate enough gold to exchange with other players - out of thin air. you are NOT limited by existing in game gold. you. can make. MORE.
context of the argument is that yes you CAN make the gold. yes you CAN generate it. yes you CAN make enough to make a good number of crown purchases via gold. i mean.. i did. and I don't even farm extensively at all. I farm occasionally for specific things, get bored after less then an hour and move on to something else, and i STILl end up with enough stuff to get me more then enough gold. does it happen fast? now. can you afford EVERYTHING in crown store? absolutely not, and neither can you do so in other games, unless you are a gold making savant. does it make it pay to win? ABSOLUTELY NOT. cosmetics are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. no matter how much you try to insist otherwise, they are NOT. PAY. TO WIN. they are cosmetics. they have no bearing on player power
why? because even when you look at things that are convenience based that do have bearing on player power? you can still just earn them in game. for less total time investment than it would take to make enough gold to buy them via crown store.
the context of your argument is apparently just becasue you cannot buy 100% of all things, its pay to win? that is not even in the same city, let alone ballpark of pay to win. in a game where through gameplay ALONE, WITHOUT having to farm 24/7 or even having max level characters, let alone high CP characters - you can make enough gold to purchase a DLC within a week of farming few hours a day each day? what is your context about limited gold again?
No, you still miss the context. In order to suggest (as others have) that the game does not require anyone to purchase crowns, that the ENTIRE game can be had with gold alone, is a fallacy. It is 100% impossible for the entire player base to purchase the entirety of ESO with gold alone. This is the argument.
its impossible, not becasue gold is not infinite, but becasue crowns. are NOT infinite. moreover. what are you considering entirety of ESO. all the DLC's? or ALL of the cosmetics? and are we accounting for the fact that as a subscriber, you GET crowns for each month you subscribe along with acess to entire ESO minus most recent expansion? (which is pretty standard for pay to PLAY games - which is what ESO is. its PAY TO PLAY, NOT PAY TO WIN). and therein lays a rub. subscription crowns constitute a good chunk of crown selling. and subscription crowns are more then enough to acess entirety of ESO eventually, especially if you wait for DLC sales.
dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2