is Teso pay to win game?

MalEducado · December 2020

i ask because a lot of ppl pay for runs, pay for skins, pay for carrys to another players... its supouse if someone can paid for the archievements means, the game is a pay to win...

nukk3r · December 2020

Pay to win is when you pay the developers real money for the stuff that gives you an edge in a fight. When you pay for carry runs, you give gold to other players. It's not pay to win.

relentless_turnip · December 2020

It's fairly heavily monetised, but no more pay to win. Not more than WOW or FF... arguably less so.

Michae · December 2020

Do other people's achievements really affect you in any way? There are no leaderboards in PvE, you do the content you hopefully have fun you get the cosmetic. The end. Some people just want the cosmetics, like for example the two personalities locked behind the super content they are really not interested in because they are for example in rp community. They most likely won't boast about clearing the content by themselves and also you probably won't even clash with them in your playthrough. Why care? Be proud that you got/cleared something, not that others didn't.

JKorr · December 2020

MalEducado wrote: »

i ask because a lot of ppl pay for runs, pay for skins, pay for carrys to another players... its supouse if someone can paid for the archievements means, the game is a pay to win...

What exactly are you "winning"?

People pay for carries, for bragging/epeen measurements. They then never attempt to run the content on their own, because they can't clear it. No one is impressed, really, because everyone knows people pay for carries/clears.

People pay for carries for skins, because they want the bragging rights and teh shinies, which really count for nothing because everyone knows people pay for carries and clears for skins.

People have bribed emperors to allow themselves to be killed so someone can take the title and the shinies for bragging and epeen measurements. No one is really really impressed, because everyone knows people have paid to get the title.

The only people it matters to are the ones who believe that everyone is impressed with "Grand Catastrophic Leveller of Empires" or whatever title is involved. If someone needs a title desperately enough to pay someone else to get it, instead of it really being a personal achievement, then gold star for them. Pat them on the head and let them brag away. Makes absolutely no difference in my game.

Danikat · December 2020

Pay to win means paying the developers for stuff which gives you an advantage over other players. For example games where you could earn the best equipment by grinding dungeons hoping for that 0.01% drop chance...or you could buy it right away for $10.

Paying other players for services in the game is not pay to win, even if those services help you complete achievements (or do it for you). I suppose since you can buy crowns, sell them for gold and use that gold to pay for carrys you can in a round-about way pay real money to complete achievements, but the entire system is something players have created and run, it's not actually part of the game.

In pay to win games systems like that are almost unavoidable because they're actually built into the game itself.

Faulgor · December 2020

nukk3r wrote: »

Pay to win is when you pay the developers real money for the stuff that gives you an edge in a fight. When you pay for carry runs, you give gold to other players. It's not pay to win.

It is if you buy the gold with crowns which you bought with real money.

But that is none of my business ...

Daemons_Bane · December 2020

Nope, it is not

Vevvev · December 2020

ESO is not pay to win in that you can buy the best gear, consumables, and gain power non-paying people would be unable to acquire. Instead ESO is paying to access content, which some claim is pay to win, but the devs have been keeping the old content still competitive. Even the skyshard and skill line purchases on the crown store require you to have collected and leveled them up on a character before being able to buy them.

The closest ESO gets to pay to win in my mind is the new classes, but even then thanks to the crown exchange you can get them for free. In fact everything that's giftable on the crown store can be acquired for free via an exchange.

Tommy_The_Gun · December 2020

nukk3r wrote: »

Pay to win is when you pay the developers real money for the stuff that gives you an edge in a fight.

Agreed.

So basically if we have something like dungeon DLC with a very OP gear (not tradable) in it, so the only way to get that gear is to pay rl cash, so yeah, then it is P2W. Similar with some mythics.

I would say this:

Is ESO p2w ?

Yes, but no... It is on the red line.

JamieAubrey · December 2020

If you pay 15m gold for a skin you are nuts

VaranisArano · December 2020

Not by the generally accepted definition of "pay-to-win." I think enough people have hammered that out before me.

If you have an alternate definition of 'winning", such as saying "#fashionscrolls is the true endgame, and I have to pay the Crown Store to get all the best looks," then yeah, you can say ESO is "pay-to-win." I know at least one person with a similar stance.

Or if you think that paying in-game currency to get carried in content is "pay to win", sure you can call it that. I know several posters who've asked that trial carries be banned.

But if you were asking about pay-to-win in the generally accepted meaning of the term, no, ESO isn't a pay-to-win game.

Jierdanit · December 2020

MalEducado wrote: »

i ask because a lot of ppl pay for runs, pay for skins, pay for carrys to another players... its supouse if someone can paid for the archievements means, the game is a pay to win...

No.

furiouslog · December 2020

It's not pay to win provided that gear sets are balanced and accessible. This thing going on with Syvarra's Scales comes to mind since the crown equivalent of purchasing all of the available items in that set for gold at current prices/rates is about 15000 crowns on PC/NA, with most of that going to the heavy pieces. It has no functional equivalent in heavy, which is why it commands that price.

ssewallb14_ESO · December 2020

You could argue that crown exchanges make it grind-wall p2w, but I would disagree.

The only gear you would even want to buy is perfected, and the difference between that and easily obtainable non-perfected isn't enough to make a difference in any situation where you wouldn't be easily obtaining perfected gear anyway. Also this game generally maintains horizontal gear progression, so you'll never get hard carried by any gear in the same way you might with a p2w game.

The idea of grind walling is to make the opportunity cost of obtaining something in game so ridiculously high that the only realistic way of obtaining good gear is to purchase it, and that's no where near the case in this game.

They do engage in the "slightly overtune a new thing and nerf it later" strategy, especially with stuff that's good in PvP as content is a harder sell there, but it is tied to content. Make of that what you will.

Belegnole · December 2020

A friend considers the content pay wall a form of pay to win. His argument is that if gear that is needed because it is meta or BIS is hidden behind a pay wall then it is by definition pay to win. He adds that there are also meta classes behind the pay wall.

Khajiitihaswares · December 2020

MalEducado wrote: »

i ask because a lot of ppl pay for runs, pay for skins, pay for carrys to another players... its supouse if someone can paid for the archievements means, the game is a pay to win...

Read the definition for that again... Ingame currency to buy runs isn't P2W... A lot mmos people sell runs this isn't something new at all.

SirAndy · December 2020

MalEducado wrote: »

is Teso pay to win game?

No

Husan · December 2020

To quote wikipedia: "In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers"

Wardens, a class locked behind a paywall have some serious gameplay advantages over other classes, including the best skill in the game: arctic blast.

So the game is technically pay to win.

iksde · December 2020

MalEducado wrote: »

i ask because a lot of ppl pay for runs, pay for skins, pay for carrys to another players... its supouse if someone can paid for the archievements means, the game is a pay to win...

people pay for this for in game gold, it is not pay to win, players neede to earn this gold before by playing game

pay to win would be if player would pay for this for real money which is against rules here and people giving services of carry runs for titles, skins dont do it for real money here as this would lead for fast ban for them

so no, services you wrote are not pay to win but rather grind for gold to buy carry run for which you are to lazy to lear or unable to run at all

ArchMikem · December 2020

As has been stated in past threads about this, at worst the game is Pay 4 Convenience. Being able to use Crowns to unlock the skyshards for entire zones or unlocking skill lines to max rank doesn't necessarily give you an edge in gameplay, only saves you the time. Even then in order to buy those unlocks you must have already unlocked them on one of your characters the intended way first. You had to earn it.

No this game is not Pay 2 Win.

VoxAdActa · December 2020

Husan wrote: »

To quote wikipedia: "In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers"

Wardens, a class locked behind a paywall have some serious gameplay advantages over other classes, including the best skill in the game: arctic blast.

So the game is technically pay to win.

You can get wardens for in-game gold with crown store gifting.

And saying any individual active ability is the "best skill in the game" shows a deep level of inexperience. Nobody has ever said "Need 11 more magwardens for vMoL, must have Arctic Blast morph!"

Silaf · December 2020

No, store sell some random items you can use in game but is all trash.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2020

On the grand scheme of things, I would say No, if Yes/No were my only options. However, I dont believe P2W is binary, but rather, a spectrum. TESO is certainly on the spectrum, and really has been ever since they allowed crown gifting because it is a direct avenue to turn cash into gold.

Everyone is going to have their own definition of P2W that they think is correct, but ultimately, it comes down to how you define winning. There are not what I would call Blatant P2W Items. You cant buy powerful weapons/armor that give you a clear advantage over other players that wont spend the cash. For some, short of that, nothing is P2W, but I think that is a pretty narrow definition.

Is winning for you having the best house for your crafting guild to win a contest? Well, this game is pretty darn pay 2 win.

Is winning being the best in a dueling tournament? Well, now we are much lower on the scale, maybe not even on it.

Is winning being the first to no-death of the new trial after a new OP class is released? Well, we are back up the spectrum. Being able to not only buy the class, but use gold/crowns to power level your class and skill lines on patch day is certainly a pretty massive advantage.

Because cash can buy gold, and gold can buy anything in game that is not account bound, it is at least somewhere on the spectrum. Where on the spectrum depends on your definition of "Winning", which is simply not the same for everyone in an MMO.

End of the day, time has value, and buying gold saves time, which can give you a competitive advantage depending on how you define winning.

VaranisArano · December 2020

Belegnole wrote: »

A friend considers the content pay wall a form of pay to win. His argument is that if gear that is needed because it is meta or BIS is hidden behind a pay wall then it is by definition pay to win. He adds that there are also meta classes behind the pay wall.

If he we're right, you wouldn't be able to complete content without paying. That's the "needed" part.

Which is just not true. Base game classes can complete all the base game content with base game gear or bought overland/Golden gear. Including in PVP - all the DKs, Templars, Sorcs, and Nightblades would like a word if he's saying you need a Warden or Necro to be competitive there. You shouldn't need BOP DLC/Chapter gear to complete the content you have access to.

"But I can't follow the meta without buying a DLC or Chapter!"

You don't need to follow the meta or have BIS gear to complete content. ESO is surprisingly forgiving in that regard. That's especially true in PVP. Player skill counts for a lot more than slapping on the latest meta gear or rolling the latest meta class. Also, if you are willing to be patient for an ESO+ free trial, you can grind out all the BOP gear you need from any DLC.

"But my guild says I need the meta gear/class/skill from a DLC or Chapter!"

If your current guild isn't willing to work around your unwillingness to pay for content and classes like warden or necro, or accept a build that's fairly comparable to the meta given your skill as a player, it might be time to look for another guild.

Unless this is just a veiled "Nothing should be behind a paywalls/everything should be free" request from your friend, of course.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2020

Belegnole wrote: »

A friend considers the content pay wall a form of pay to win. His argument is that if gear that is needed because it is meta or BIS is hidden behind a pay wall then it is by definition pay to win. He adds that there are also meta classes behind the pay wall.

I tend to reject that argument, but I won't say it's without some merit. As stated earlier, I do think that ESO is on the P2W spectrum (fairly low on it for the most part), but that is really more of a pay 2 play, then pay 2 win. I think its okay for MMOs to release new content without worrying about people crying P2W, and new content is going to have new shinys that make you more powerful. If you dont own all content, you really can't reasonably be expected to have access to all the game. By that notion, every game is pay to win because you have to buy it in the first place.

Kiralyn2000 · December 2020

Faulgor wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Pay to win is when you pay the developers real money for the stuff that gives you an edge in a fight. When you pay for carry runs, you give gold to other players. It's not pay to win.

It is if you buy the gold with crowns which you bought with real money.

But that is none of my business ...

Except the fact that you can get cash-shop items with gold earned in-game, is anti-"Pay to win".

In Pay To Win, the things you buy have to only be available for real $, and give you power or advantage that can't be earned in-game.

Sarannah · December 2020

ESO is not pay-to-win!

furiouslog · December 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Belegnole wrote: »

A friend considers the content pay wall a form of pay to win. His argument is that if gear that is needed because it is meta or BIS is hidden behind a pay wall then it is by definition pay to win. He adds that there are also meta classes behind the pay wall.

You don't need to follow the meta or have BIS gear to complete content. ESO is surprisingly forgiving in that regard. That's especially true in PVP. Player skill counts for a lot more than slapping on the latest meta gear or rolling the latest meta class. Also, if you are willing to be patient for an ESO+ free trial, you can grind out all the BOP gear you need from any DLC.

Yes, but given two players of equal skill, if one has access to purchasable gear or a class with a paywall that will provide an edge over the other, then that fits the definition.

I think that the drastic differences in pricing for tradeable gear is also evidence that needs to be considered - some things are vastly more expensive than others because the advantage the gear provides relative to its rarity in game creates a large enough demand that it can sustain those prices. If what you said was true, then the pricing distribution for tradeable gear would be much flatter. If there were cheap alternatives that were close to what was available at high prices, the prices would come down.

Some of the market is influenced by what is pushed out as meta, which is essentially a marketing campaign for gear, but plenty of examples exist of other gear sets that don't have that kind of support yet still command crazy prices. It could be a bubble, but it could also be an actual problem of imbalance or accessibility, at which point it's technically P2W since gold can indirectly be acquired for money.

For the record, I don't think that any P2W is ESO's deliberate intention, I think it just ends up functionally being that way because these issues exist.

Starlock · December 2020

Yes, but not for the reasons you stated. This game has abundant, egregious, unethical monetization that covers the spectrum of pay-to-win (aka, pay-to-progress, pay-to-skip, pay-for-convenience, pay-for-exclusives, whatever you want to call it) and then some. The only games that manage to do it worse are things like sports titles, which earn the prize mostly because the publishers market a game with unregulated gambling in it to children. Children!

But no - not because players sell "carries" for in-game gold. You're not paying any actual money for that. Or at least I hope you aren't.

idk · December 2020

Paying for a clear is not P2W. The players they normally run with probably realize their friend paid for the skin and is not that good of a player. At least on PC we can see if they are good or bought the skin even without ESO logging. We have an addon that shows us our % of DPS on a boss or group which means if we have a pug with us we know how good, or bad they really are.