ZOS, any chance for a global Action House?

idk · May 2020

Eifleber wrote: »

idk wrote: »

there is a performance issue. Having a central AH, or even have it split into 3 as you seem to suggest, the query of searches is immensely larger creating a significantly greater load on the servers. It is a database and this fact about database queries.

Considering that we already have a performance issue that Zos has been struggling I doubt Zos would even begin to consider creating central auction houses as it would be a complete mess. ESO does not use tiny servers like WoW and FF14 so the queries here would be significantly larger anything either of those games has ever seen.

Not sure how many you know about databases and servers but stuff like stuff for sale can easily be hosted on a seperate server. So big searches don' t have any impact on the game server (just like a huge Google seach doesn' t lock your computer as it is performed somewhere else). The calculations and searches are performed on the other server and only the results are transfered to the game server interface.

So it's actually not a very valid argument.

Next to that, as I mentioned in my previous post, I actually don't really care what system the game uses as long as I can find and buy whatever I want within 5 minutes.

@Eifleber

What we call a server in an MMORPG but one server does not handle everything. There are numerous physical and virtual servers that make up what we refer to as the server we play on. Heck, there is at least one server for grouping and a different server for character selection. Each zone instance is on at least a virtual server if not it's own physical server.

So yes, the guild traders are likely already on their own servers as it is so your suggestion that the significantly larger queries that a central trading system would bring would be alleviated by putting the system on its own server seems rather uninformed. It is the same reason Zos limited our bank and bag storage and that again is likely managed by specific servers.

BTW, I have spent the last 20 years working with large corporate databases, virtual networks they operate on, and of course the servers these systems utilize.

So yes, my point is extremely valid and accurate.

Edit: also, you are wrong that having something controlled by its own server does not cause load on the rest of the system. Zos has even specifically stated that many systems use other systems in the game which is why one area can have an effect on another area. This was apparent when Zos made some changes to the group finder late last year that impacted severely and negatively impacted completely unrelated aspects of the game.

Again, just dealing with actual facts here.

Eifleber · May 2020

idk wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

stuff like stuff for sale can easily be hosted on a seperate server. So big searches don' t have any impact on the game server (just like a huge Google seach doesn' t lock your computer as it is performed somewhere else). The calculations and searches are performed on the other server and only the results are transfered to the game server interface.

I have spent the last 20 years working with large corporate databases, virtual networks they operate on, and of course the servers these systems utilize.

Then please explain why for instance Guild Wars 2 - with a lot more players and no seperate console servers - has a global auction house where people can even put in buy options? If GW2 can do it, then ESO should DEFINITELY be able to do it.

Remarkable thing: sometimes the AH on GW2 doesn' t work for a short time while the rest of the game continues to work perfectly fine. Would be another indication that GW2 does things differently, more efficiently than ESO what this is concerned.

Just a thought.

idk · May 2020

Eifleber wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

stuff like stuff for sale can easily be hosted on a seperate server. So big searches don' t have any impact on the game server (just like a huge Google seach doesn' t lock your computer as it is performed somewhere else). The calculations and searches are performed on the other server and only the results are transfered to the game server interface.

I have spent the last 20 years working with large corporate databases, virtual networks they operate on, and of course the servers these systems utilize.

Then please explain why for instance Guild Wars 2 - with a lot more players and no seperate console servers - has a global auction house where people can even put in buy options? If GW2 can do it, then ESO should DEFINITELY be able to do it.

Remarkable thing: sometimes the AH on GW2 doesn' t work for a short time while the rest of the game continues to work perfectly fine. Would be another indication that GW2 does things differently, more efficiently than ESO what this is concerned.

Just a thought.

I have no idea how GW2 is designed as I have not played it. Saying they do things more efficiently without explaining how is fairly empty of actual information.

I do know Zos has spoken to query size and the impact it has on server performance. Just this past year one of the Zos devs answered why Zos will not be a much asked for furnishings bag similar to the crafting bag. Financially it would make sense for Zos to offer this type of storage so players would not be held back by their inventory space when considering purchasing crown furnishings packs.

The specific reason was that there are significantly more unique items for furnishings than there are for crafting. That would mean the server would have to do more work when we looked into our furnishings bag because it would be dealing with a larger query. It is no different than the trading system. If it is made into one system there would be more trades posted meaning the server would be dealing with a larger query and related load.

In the end, I am speaking from a real database experienced and bringing in related comments Zos has made. Actual facts. More than a thought.

thedavidventer · May 2020

Emma_Overload wrote: »

We wouldn't need an auction house if they would make the trade guilds SEARCHABLE from a central location. They should also let you put down a deposit to hold the item until you can travel to the actual trader.

This would be convenient, I wouldn’t mind this being a thing. That said, I’m new to ESO. I’ve only been playing for a month but I used to play WoW non-stop since WoTLK so the desire for a central place to search everything is out of habit not really necessity.

I joined a trading guild in ESO and it’s been great. The current trading system also feels more realistic to me. For example; if you’re shopping in the real world, you have to physically go to different places to buy different things. The current system enhanced immersion and role play in that regard. I like it. However, a convenient place to search all listings would be awesome. TTC already achieves that, sort-of. It certainly wouldn’t hurt to put that in the game as a default in-game mechanic.

I don’t mind traveling around the map to find stuff but it would be cool to be able to know where exactly I need to travel to in order to find what I’m looking for. An in-game global search would achieve this; Kind of like in the real world where you can do a web search to find out which stores sell what you’re looking for and then you can check their website or call a branch to find out if they actually have what you want before you travel to buy it.

On the contrary; ESO is set in an era where global databases, telephones, and web search is not a thing - so such a feature, while convenient, might remove some aspects of immersion. I’m really on the fence about this and I can see why ZOS hasn’t changed the system since launch. It’s unique and immersive, but yes, I do think it would be awesome to have a global search feature in the game, for convenience sake.

RedSwallow · May 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

People want a particular feature of the global auction house so badly they created virtually created one and it's popular.

People also created an addon which shows locations of all known skyshards which has more then 7 million downloads listed. According to your logic this should have become an in-game option years ago.

That's actually the thing about almost any MMO game: it's a game first of all, so it should provide a player content to play. Yet, sometimes players need to have huge progress here and now, mostly because in MMOs it often happens that they depend on other people or other people depend on them. In such cases they start using third-party services or invest real-life money to gain what they need from other players - just because for them in their current situation it's the only way to stay on equal terms with others. This in no way means that the whole process of playing should be eliminated from the game just so everyone could get their progress here and now - there will be nothing left to play in the end.

Anticipating further comments, yes, those third party services should be completely forbidden in the perfect world hence they provide a possibility for those too resourceful to vastly overplay others - but in reality developers have to always evaluate which damage is bigger: from some players overplaying others, or from many players abandoning the game altogether. AND NO, when disabling addons causes a lot of players to stop playing IT DOESN'T MEAN those addons features should have been implemented into the game because the impact of having them in game officially for everyone IS VASTLY different from the impact they have as they are.

Eifleber wrote: »

I just hate to waste hours of my life traveling around to find something that may not even be available on the whole server at all, like rare furniture. I mean, it's not like there are only stores in each capital. Or 10 stores, or 20.

I don't actually get it, if something is rare, it's rarity shouldn't be determined by the simple fact that it's ten times more expensive then the other most expensive thing listed. It makes the item expensive, not rare (say hello to nirncrux). Just like you can't google "where to buy a dinosaur skull" and get an immediate answer IRL.

Though in my opinion there indeed should be some place for rare items where players could get (and give) information about them. Like, for those same dinosaur skulls (btw, it's illegal to buy them, but please, don't mind me using it as an example) there would be some societies which could be contacted to provide you with needed information. I actually believe that having some sort of overall chat or advertising board would be enough to eliminate the majority of complaints for current system. Probably, it will have to be want-to-buy only, so bots and flippers still won't be able to abuse it (I think I've even seen something like this, in Black Desert maybe?) - but it will already be enough to at least replace zone chat wtb interactions which is a lot. Or maybe there should be no prices on that board so players would have to submit their own offers instead of simply pressing buy/sell buttons.

Btw, there was an auction suggestion in the beginning of this thread wich, from my point of view, has it's potential not in the state where there is a GAH for everyone and auction event for trade guilds but INSTEAD trade guilds remain as they are and there is also an auction event for everyone which doesn't depend on guilds. Like, everyone knows when and where it happens, so people interested in selling and buying hard-to-sell and hard-to-buy stuff are coming their to participate anyway.

To summarize, I'd say eliminating current system and totally replacing it with something else is not an option, because our current system provides great potential for improvement if you just try and look for something beyond commonplace MMORPG trading practices - then, since both, GAH and any sort of improvements requires resources from the developers' side, why don't go for the latter?..

Eifleber · May 2020

thedavidventer wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

We wouldn't need an auction house if they would make the trade guilds SEARCHABLE from a central location. They should also let you put down a deposit to hold the item until you can travel to the actual trader.

This would be convenient, I wouldn’t mind this being a thing.

I joined a trading guild in ESO and it’s been great. The current trading system also feels more realistic to me. For example; if you’re shopping in the real world, you have to physically go to different places to buy different things. The current system enhanced immersion and role play in that regard. I like it.

However, a convenient place to search all listings would be awesome. TTC already achieves that, sort-of. It certainly wouldn’t hurt to put that in the game as a default in-game mechanic.

Exactly.

If ESO would be a real world, if for example I want to buy some Redoran Dark Elf furniture, I go to Vvardenfell or Wayrest and visit the local the carpenter and buy or order it. There's fixed places for everything you need. Things like 500 mini walmarts spread across the whole world that all sell everything is totally unrealistic and doesn't make any sense, RP wise.

I don't mind traveling to get stuff. But a real-time search function would be mandatory to make it convenient for buyers.
*

redlink1979 · May 2020

Again, no!

Kwoung · May 2020

Eifleber wrote: »

If TTC worked real-time and was flawless and integrated into the game (I even advocated this option) I d' say you are absolutely right.

But it isnt.
lots of stuff for sale isnt listed on TTC

a lot of stuff on TTC isn't for sale anymore (or at all)

1. After months of playing I get the feeling that or example a player want to sell stuff for say 5000 gold. What they do is list the same thing on TTC for 2500 gold as well so people come to their shop, not finding the cheap version but only the expensive one. The seller hopes the player doesn't bother visiting other shops (long loading times - why waste another half an hour tp' ing between zones while you could actually be playing the game) so may decide to buy the expensive one.

2. You can also count on it that the cheapest 10% listed on TTC is already sold - or not available for other reasons (see above under 1.). The chance that the cheapest entries are still there (or were there at all, there is no check) is about 2%. Very tiresome, annoying and time consuming.

3. Sometimes it even happens that the shop mentioned on TTC has already moved away from the registred location.
Is there any check that it ever existed at all?

If abovementioned problems would be solved i would agree with you.

I get the funny idea that some people can only think/argue from a sellers perspective, not from a buyer/consumer point of view.
Where it comes down to is that I JUST DO NOT WANT TO SPEND MORE THAN 5 MINUTES FINDING AND BUYING WHAT I WANT. Everything preventing this is annoying and taking away from the game.

You apparently do not know how TTC/things work, so let me help out...

1. Yes, some nefarious folks do that on rare occasion. But chances actually are... if it was a good deal, someone else got there first and bought it. With the way prices are on crafted items selling for less than their combined ingredients sell for, a serious crafter/trader needs to be on their game and snatch up those deals when they occur. Item flippers do the same.

2. See #1. Don't waste your time looking for the cheapest item as a casual purchaser, just find a reasonably priced one that was recently posted and go buy it. BTW, it is more like a 98% chance the item was there, you simply missed it because you were to slow. As I had mentioned, I get the items I need enough of the time, about 80-90% if camping TTC and shopping is all I am doing at that moment. During which times I unload almost all my addons and lower my graphic settings so I can zone faster, because it is a whomever gets there first wins situation. You will have the same exact issue on a global auction house, the lowest price stuff will be gone faster than you can click to buy it or your screen can refresh, and you will experience the same frustration, probably even more since you will see it right there and constantly get an "Already Sold" message when trying to buy.

3. Seriously? That happens once a week and TTC gets updated almost immediately due to players looking for deals on the new vendors that just popped up. This isn't an issue.

If you do not want to spend more than 5 minutes shopping, then you simply need to have more gold and be willing to spend it. Simply do a search on TTC and buy the average priced item that just popped up for sale and you will never have an issue. You don't get to be cheap and impatient, they are mutually exclusive in any trade system.

As for TTC not ever having an item listed, well yup, it can happen and used to be way more common before the addon really took off. TTC isn't hooked into the games back end, it collects data from players scanning vendors. If the person selling the item doesn't use TTC or just didn't follow the steps have the their own listings automatically listed, then TTC will not know about it until someone else searches that vendor for that item. In which case they probably bought it, which is why you do not see it anymore. Also, because of how the game works, TTC doesn't get updated with info someone saw until they zone. If someone lists some stuff for sale then hangs out crafting or whatever in the same zone for a long time, TTC will not get the data right away, although when it finally does get uploaded, it will have the timestamp of when it was actually listed. That is why you will see things pop up in the middle of the page on a refresh of the TTC site, that was not there previously. I used to miss a ton of good deals until I understood how that worked.

Hope that helps explain things!

JanTanhide · May 2020

Auction?

Kwoung · May 2020

Eifleber wrote: »

idk wrote: »

there is a performance issue. Having a central AH, or even have it split into 3 as you seem to suggest, the query of searches is immensely larger creating a significantly greater load on the servers. It is a database and this fact about database queries.

Considering that we already have a performance issue that Zos has been struggling I doubt Zos would even begin to consider creating central auction houses as it would be a complete mess. ESO does not use tiny servers like WoW and FF14 so the queries here would be significantly larger anything either of those games has ever seen.

Not sure how many you know about databases and servers but stuff like stuff for sale can easily be hosted on a seperate server. So big searches don' t have any impact on the game server (just like a huge Google seach doesn' t lock your computer as it is performed somewhere else). The calculations and searches are performed on the other server and only the results are transfered to the game server interface.

Next to that I bet all the stuff is already hosted in one big database (most probably one per server, like NA/PC, EU/Xbox etc) because if every shop had its own table, seaches within a guild shop would be performed within a blink of an eye. Which clearly isn't the case.

So it's actually not a very valid argument.

Next to that, as I mentioned in my previous post #88, I actually don't really care what system the game uses as long as I can find and buy whatever I want within 5 minutes.
-

Actually you are mistaken, it isn't simply a function of the database at all, I am sure they have a fine one and it has the capability to perform millions of transactions a second. What you have not taken into consideration, is the transfer of that data to a players client, that is actually where the performance issues come in, not in the database itself most likely. That said, if you know something about databases as you claim, you should understand the performance difference between a simple query of 15,000 items max on a vendor, versus a query of millions, every time a player hit search.