Another Anti-Ball Group idea

idk · August 2019

The first point OP suggests is easily exploited so it is pointless. Just make the 20 man group two 12 man groups. Then you now have an even larger Zerg with no negative effect.

The second point will have unintended consequences, which OP understands but it seems to be something Zergs can use to their advantage which goes against the entire idea.

I am not knocking the OP for presenting their ideas but I just do not see either having a positive or even intended effect.

There currently is a means for a smaller group to take out a larger group. It starts with leadership preparing a group and leading them through the battle. It has been that way since day one. But the leader has to be able to lead, and know what they are doing and the rest of the group has to fall in line which includes running the skills they are told to and doing exactly what they are told when hitting the zerg. It is fabulous killing groups twice and three times your groups size.

Drdeath20 · August 2019

The entire point is teamwork and coordination. A prepared team should feel powerful but its overkill at this point. Zero need for flankers, or a back tank or many other playstyles. really after it has been coordinated about who is gonna be the designated rapid spammer, who is gonna be the timestop user, and how many EG helms and viscious death sets they need there is really little strategy left after that. 3...2...1...drop ult..spam AoE..stay hard stacked and walk towards opponents. Everything instantly dies. Yahoo were amazing.

Valencer · August 2019

Imagine complaining about ball groups in 2019

LoreToo · August 2019

This thread is useless cause any ball group have sige shield spamer with purge.
Realy guys, you are talking around without using skills that were made to stop groups:
1.negate
2.caltrops
3.time stop
4.buggy meteor
5.buggy mages guild rune that send your enemies into space
6.permafrost
7.shifting standart with major defile
8.bombard and any roots
9. Immobilising poisons
10. Necro ult
11. This absolutly stupid magsorc combination of overload HA and elegance
12. Aoe stuns like streak
13. Ice wall(zos fix this pls, still op)
In terms of defense you can use:
1. Shuffle
2. RaT
3. Running
Is it enough or..?

frozywozy · August 2019

We need more counter to ballgroups so solo players can happily zerg surf next to each other with their faction. This is what Cyrodiil should be about. 3 fights on the map (one between EP And DC, one between EP and AD and one between DC and AD around the emp keeps. Anything else doesn't have a place in Cyrodiil. Groups who do an effort to fight outside of the transit line should be punished for it and discouraged right back into their faction zerg.

NBrookus · August 2019

Drdeath20 wrote: »

The entire point is teamwork and coordination. A prepared team should feel powerful but its overkill at this point. Zero need for flankers, or a back tank or many other playstyles.

A lot of that is simply lack of collision in this game. You can't really have formations. Aside from the Guard skill, which isn't that strong compared to many sources of self-mitigation, tanks can't truly body block and protect squishies, or hold breaches, or any other normal tank things. Most PVP "tanks" just spam CCs, which you don't need because so many damage skills have CC on them anyway.

The PVP trinity is heals-support-damage. Which sucks for anyone who prefers a tank playstyle.

If coordinated groups were so all-powerful and easy, we'd see a lot more of them actually being successful. It's not like the random PUG groups don't have members with Earthgore, Vicious Death, and all the exact same skills unlocked.

InvictusApollo · August 2019

NBrookus wrote: »

If coordinated groups were so all-powerful and easy, we'd see a lot more of them actually being successful. It's not like the random PUG groups don't have members with Earthgore, Vicious Death, and all the exact same skills unlocked.

They lack one vital component that prevents them from effectively challenge a ballgroup. And that is voice communication.

Minyassa · August 2019

You know what would go even farther toward stopping ball groups? Taking alliance skills entirely out of the meta, making it so that PvE players don't need one single thing out of Cyrodiil except for enjoying PvP play. Ball groups are what's recommended to PvE players who need Caltrops or whatever other Alliance skill the current meta says they need. Like every thread on "how do I get this alliance skill when I don't pvp" recommends either BG (which is a mess) or joining a ball group. Fix the need to get alliance skills on PvE characters and you depopularize ball groups by a massive percentage.

Ajax_22 · August 2019

Minyassa wrote: »

You know what would go even farther toward stopping ball groups? Taking alliance skills entirely out of the meta, making it so that PvE players don't need one single thing out of Cyrodiil except for enjoying PvP play. Ball groups are what's recommended to PvE players who need Caltrops or whatever other Alliance skill the current meta says they need. Like every thread on "how do I get this alliance skill when I don't pvp" recommends either BG (which is a mess) or joining a ball group. Fix the need to get alliance skills on PvE characters and you depopularize ball groups by a massive percentage.

Those players are not joining ball groups nor are they told to do so. They are joining zergs, and faction stacks.

Alphaa · August 2019

LoreToo wrote: »

This thread is useless cause any ball group have sige shield spamer with purge.
Realy guys, you are talking around without using skills that were made to stop groups:
1.negate
2.caltrops
3.time stop
4.buggy meteor
5.buggy mages guild rune that send your enemies into space
6.permafrost
7.shifting standart with major defile
8.bombard and any roots
9. Immobilising poisons
10. Necro ult
11. This absolutly stupid magsorc combination of overload HA and elegance
12. Aoe stuns like streak
13. Ice wall(zos fix this pls, still op)
In terms of defense you can use:
1. Shuffle
2. RaT
3. Running
Is it enough or..?

You missed 'Forum Tears' from your list.

Ender1310 · August 2019

Ball groups are a visual eyesore on an otherwise beautiful combat oriented game. Loved the siege bug.

Rohamad_Ali · August 2019

Sandman929 wrote: »

So strange to see people actively brainstorming ways to stop groups of players from working together to win fights.

Not strange . We've been doing this since launch lol . The answer was Battlegrounds .

NBrookus · August 2019

InvictusApollo wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

If coordinated groups were so all-powerful and easy, we'd see a lot more of them actually being successful. It's not like the random PUG groups don't have members with Earthgore, Vicious Death, and all the exact same skills unlocked.

They lack one vital component that prevents them from effectively challenge a ballgroup. And that is voice communication.

PC NA, I can think of several guild ball groups that routinely die to uncoordinated pugs that don't outnumber them by much, and a couple of guilds in voice comms that run several raids deep that die to even the new guilds still learning.

The only guild that usually doesn't die no matter how many enemies there are until a coordinated group shows up to stack with the pugs is Drac. And while them running laps around Glade is painfully annoying and I hate wall farming, I can still acknowledge that it's a whole lot more than a couple of gear sets and voice comms.

Heimpai · August 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

The anti ball group was accidentally fixed months ago. It was when siege was bugged and caused tons of damage, but ZOS fixed that bug. The only bug they've actually fixed. That was a nice week when those heal spamming tower circle runners hid.

Good times..when that hit i was accused of hax..dropped 1 oil and killed 6 people 😂

I was confused but definitely not complaining, helped deal with pop imbalances

Ender1310 · August 2019

Alphaa wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

This thread is useless cause any ball group have sige shield spamer with purge.
Realy guys, you are talking around without using skills that were made to stop groups:
1.negate
2.caltrops
3.time stop
4.buggy meteor
5.buggy mages guild rune that send your enemies into space
6.permafrost
7.shifting standart with major defile
8.bombard and any roots
9. Immobilising poisons
10. Necro ult
11. This absolutly stupid magsorc combination of overload HA and elegance
12. Aoe stuns like streak
13. Ice wall(zos fix this pls, still op)
In terms of defense you can use:
1. Shuffle
2. RaT
3. Running
Is it enough or..?

You missed 'Forum Tears' from your list.

Haha he said Bombard and any roots. I have yet to see a ball group that can be rooted. Lolz lolz lolz. Not sure if he plays now. Are you Russian bot?

Rin_Senya · August 2019

Ender1310 wrote: »

Haha he said Bombard and any roots. I have yet to see a ball group that can be rooted. Lolz lolz lolz. Not sure if he plays now. Are you Russian bot?

But...but... I thought that destroying a "rapid monkey" role by nerfing rapids would finally annihilate all ball groups because they wouldn't be able to move and play wothout it! Oh wait...

So funny to read such kind of threads tbh. For five years people trying to figure out what makes "ball groups" so strong and nerf it. GL with your new attempts.
Especially this one:

Ender1310 wrote: »

#1 When in a group of over 12, your ultimate regen is reduced by 25% while in Cyrodiil.

can't wait to fight this 24 man LFG zerg that tryharding the map

zyk · August 2019

Rin_Senya wrote: »

But...but... I thought that destroying a "rapid monkey" role by nerfing rapids would finally annihilate all ball groups because they wouldn't be able to move and play wothout it! Oh wait...

I don't recall that at all. What prompted the most recent discussions about that was the across-the-board nerf to mobility with the exception of rapids. No reasonable person was saying that nerfing rapids would kill ball groups -- but rather making the point that nerfing other mobility functions without touching rapids had given ball groups an indirect buff that was felt on the battlefield. Which was true. The most marginal ball groups could escape from situations they could not before; and solo/small group players could not escape from situations they could previously. I think most players concerned about the topic understood the decent groups would adapt.

Ball groups are a thing because this game is designed to be controller friendly without the ability to damage teammates. It's full of proactive AE spam which usually results in poor PVP in any game, IMO.

Rin_Senya · August 2019

zyk wrote: »

I don't recall that at all. What prompted the most recent discussions about that was the across-the-board nerf to mobility with the exception of rapids. No reasonable person was saying that nerfing rapids would kill ball groups.

Orly? Well check this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5750390/#Comment_5750390
It's just the one that took me no time to find. There were like 5 more of such kind of discussions and I'm not even gonna mention how many random comments about "rapids and purge bots are unfair, it's what carries ballgroups, remove/nerf these skills so they die!" existed on forum even BEFORE any mobility nerf.

zyk · August 2019

Rin_Senya wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I don't recall that at all. What prompted the most recent discussions about that was the across-the-board nerf to mobility with the exception of rapids. No reasonable person was saying that nerfing rapids would kill ball groups.

Orly? Well check this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5750390/#Comment_5750390
It's just the one that took me no time to find. There were like 5 more of such kind of discussions and I'm not even gonna mention how many random comments about "rapids and purge bots are unfair, it's what carries ballgroups, remove/nerf these skills so they die!" existed on forum even BEFORE any mobility nerf.

I remember the threads, but like I said, no reasonable poster was predicting the end of ball groups. I'm not going to go through each thread to quantify the opinions expressed, but IMO the nerf to rapids had exactly the impact I and many others expected it to have. I was not disappointed.

Dreyloch · August 2019

InvictusApollo wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

If coordinated groups were so all-powerful and easy, we'd see a lot more of them actually being successful. It's not like the random PUG groups don't have members with Earthgore, Vicious Death, and all the exact same skills unlocked.

They lack one vital component that prevents them from effectively challenge a ballgroup. And that is voice communication.

^^This is why there's soo many loose pugs running around. Many of them don't want, or can't join voice comms for whatever reason. It used to be that all kinds of groups with some type of leader had this. At the very least players could listen to what's going on. You don't have to speak and have your precious little eggshell broken. Alas, these days no one wants to do this and really make a difference. They just wanna be out there getting slaughtered till it's time to have dinner or log for the night.

Personally, I have no issue with joining a group that requires voice comms. Wether or not the lead is good will determine if I stay. I would try it myself (leading) but it's really hard to talk and focus while trying to go thru rotations and keeping yourself alive ROFL. I truly applaud those that do. Wish there was more of them!!

frozywozy · August 2019

@zyk - What is wrong in your opinion is the fact that ZOS did a bad move to nerf mobility in general. Swift and Speedpots nerfs were needed but reducing because of the maximum speed you could reach but the Major Expedition nerf to 4seconds to every ability in the game was bad. People should have complained about this instead of asking ZOS to also nerf the mobility of ballgroups. Roots and snares are a plague, especially in a game without cooldowns or diminishing returns.

I can't believe caltrops is going back to 50% snares effect. ugh

MipMip · August 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

Stacking on crown and spamming heal, is the absolutely lowest form of skill.

Above a demonstration of the lowest possible level of knowledge about teamwork.

Playing as a coordinated group is actually complex and very interesting, and takes a lot of skill in teamwork, in timing, in understanding the movement and own & enemy tactics. While the crown does give orders, there are still many individual decisions each group member has to make all the time.

xylena_lazarow · August 2019

Rin_Senya wrote: »

I'm not even gonna mention how many random comments about "rapids and purge bots are unfair, it's what carries ballgroups, remove/nerf these skills so they die!"

Organized groups shouldn't be immune to DoTs or debuffs because they have one or more "purge monkeys" spamming one button for the duration of the fight. It dumbs down group play and makes even skilled groups look like brainless spammers from the outside, which is why we have threads like this.

Rework Efficient Purge as a lower cost personal purge, so even specs like Stam Sorc have a realistic option for countering the ranged DoT meta. Skilled 12-16 ball groups would adapt without much issue, while the garbage 24-man guild zergs being carried by purge spam would rightfully wipe to pugs.

Durham · August 2019

Get rid of the automated smart healing system. You will get rid of 75% of the lag. You will finally end ball groups.
Single target heals/ directional heals should be use the most..... large aoe heals should always be extreamily expensive and tactically used.

Qbiken · August 2019

Durham wrote: »

Get rid of the automated smart healing system. You will get rid of 75% of the lag. You will finally end ball groups.
Single target heals/ directional heals should be use the most..... large aoe heals should always be extreamily expensive and tactically used.

or you can just limit group size to 12..........

InvictusApollo · August 2019

Qbiken wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Get rid of the automated smart healing system. You will get rid of 75% of the lag. You will finally end ball groups.
Single target heals/ directional heals should be use the most..... large aoe heals should always be extreamily expensive and tactically used.

or you can just limit group size to 12..........

This would only work if aoe healing was targeting only group members. Otherwise ballgroups would sipmply form two or three groups.

Qbiken · August 2019

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Get rid of the automated smart healing system. You will get rid of 75% of the lag. You will finally end ball groups.
Single target heals/ directional heals should be use the most..... large aoe heals should always be extreamily expensive and tactically used.

or you can just limit group size to 12..........

This would only work if aoe healing was targeting only group members. Otherwise ballgroups would sipmply form two or three groups.

I would be all for that too tbh.

Somnilux · August 2019

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Get rid of the automated smart healing system. You will get rid of 75% of the lag. You will finally end ball groups.
Single target heals/ directional heals should be use the most..... large aoe heals should always be extreamily expensive and tactically used.

or you can just limit group size to 12..........

This would only work if aoe healing was targeting only group members. Otherwise ballgroups would sipmply form two or three groups.

Do you know how many healers an organized 24 man group has? 6-8, plus 2 support purgers.

We'd just split them evenly between the groups and be fine.

And this would just hurt my ability to help the faction pugs when I'm running and healing them through messes, and change absolutely nothing.

There is nothing wrong with organized guild group pvp. The good groups with higher skill, better organization and better leadership always outperform even with numbers differences. The only problem is when entire factions stack on keeps, or multiple factions fight as it causes severe performance issues all over the server, and that rarely has anything to do with ball groups. Heck, we're usually the groups that stay away from the faction zergs and spread combat out more, taking a lot of the mess off the server.

Some of the ball groups endlessly farm AP, but speaking from experience with multiple AD guilds, most of us focus on fighting other guilds groups or campaign objectives.