DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

I like the discussion in this thread - I read almost everything, but I still don't really know why you want to remove Battle Spirit. Is it to remove some of the lag? Are you thinking it causes too many calculations in the back ground?

Checkmath and STALKER gave good examples on why it is not that easy to remove BS. Cloak, stealth (overload sorcs, sniper builds - any class, etc.), one-click heals like breath of life and a lot more skills will become a problem. There would be too much to change, hence I think ZOS will not ever remove Battle Spirit.

Also I do not believe that removing BS will contribute towards build diversity - just take a look at the no cp campaign - people are already forced to play with sustain sets. Without BS they will have to play plague doctor + 1 sustain set so that they stay alive long enough to react to the high damage. At least that's how I imagine things would change.

I really like the idea of a rez debuff, but I am not 100% sure how you want it to work. Let's say player A dies, does it mean he gets this "Rezz-Sickness" after he got resurrected? Or does player B (who was resurrecting player A) get the debuff? I'm confused because of this:

"Rezzing of this player is not possible, till the Rezz-Sickness is gone (like cooldown of Camps)"

Does it mean player A can be resurrected once and after that he gets the sickness and will not be able to be resurrected for 2 mins?
Anyway, I like this idea. If I had a free wish I would like this change to the rezzing system to become true.

Lastly, I do see why you want heals to only affect group members, but that would probably make too many of them zerg surfers leave cyrodiil - that would be bad for the population count.

I haven't read this thread Imperial City into Base Game – „Liberation of IC“ yet, so I cannot judge about the part with the Emperor changes, but I do agree that the EMP system needs changes.

No idea if anyone at ZOS is reading your threads, but maybe you @Checkmath and @Tasear (I've seen you active in other threads related to PvP) could bring some of Taonnors ideas closer to the Devs. So they get some new ideas they can think about :-)

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

It's a pretty simple concept. If you remove battlespirit, you will have to put more points into health, which means less damage output and a higher time to kill. I like it.

That's not what the OP is arguing. He is advocating a lower TTK. It changes the ratios to allow for higher damage glass cannons that can exist today when you break it down to a health:power ratio. Raising the Battle Spirit health bonus, as Stalker has advocated, would do the opposite.

I think the TTK is too high in general because of strong defensive sets, but there are OP specs with high damage that necessitate them -- like Master DW bleed builds. There needs to be adjustments, no the elimination of Battle Spirit.

We already build to survive the OP specs which results in too many long open world fights both in terms of tanky small group encounters and 1v1s.

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

It's a pretty simple concept. If you remove battlespirit, you will have to put more points into health, which means less damage output and a higher time to kill. I like it.

That's not what the OP is arguing. He is advocating a lower TTK. It changes the ratios to allow for higher damage glass cannons that can exist today when you break it down to a health:power ratio. Raising the Battle Spirit health bonus, as Stalker has advocated, would do the opposite.

I think the TTK is too high in general because of strong defensive sets, but there are OP specs with high damage that necessitate them -- like Master DW bleed builds. There needs to be adjustments, no the elimination of Battle Spirit.

We already build to survive the OP specs which results in too many long open world fights both in terms of tanky small group encounters and 1v1s.

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

It's far too simple for you to underst

Taking away the 5k hp buff will see people die very quickly in the short term until the learn that health is now a vital stat. Pouring more points into surviving reduces the amount of output damage (generally speaking). Players who build tanky are already in the right direction as would find it easier to survive.
Pointless all the same cos ZOS won't change it.

No, it's you who doesn't get it. From the OP himself:

Taonnor wrote: »

From the removing of Battle Spirit i does not expect some reducing of lag. Only in a passive way through adjusting the TTK. If the player is dead, he cannot do actions to stressing the server. More about TTK you can see here -> Myth AoE Cap

It's obvious the eventual outcome would be experienced players running more HP as they do today. However, pure glass cannon builds would have a higher potential power:hp ratio than they do today, making them more disruptive. Increasing Battle Spirit HP as Stalker suggested would force glass cannons to run more HP, therefore lowering their potential power:hp ratio.

To be clear, I am not in favor of either suggestion. I think a more nuanced solution is required to both limit the top end of burst damage and healing while decreasing the TTK of more evenly matched combatants.

Taonnor wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

My opinion is different from the OP, I disagree with him, a faster TTK would be miserable for me. If taking the free 5k health away isn't your solution, then perhaps nerf damage and heals by 65% instead of 50%.

Ok, looking inside. Which scenario we will have then? With a 65% reduction the full glass cannon builds will be much more viable as currently. This will lead in an evenly play style after all for all builds. In the end i think only the glass cannon builds with moderate/high reg will viable, because all defensive stats you will get from Battle Spirit.

My idea is to allow both extreme edges in the first step, so the players must decide what they want. Do they want high damage? Then they die fast, but kill fast. Do they want high defense? Then they does not die fast and not kill fast. If you have these extreme edges you can further adjust. For example to allowing the tank side mitigate more damage. For a strong tank side you can adjust a third edge the extreme penetration builds, which have no damage but medium life and high penetration. The tank killers and so you have in the end 3 extreme edges and at least a Rock, Paper, Scissors situation. The players itself can decide which playstyle they want. One of the extreme edges or a balanced build.

The current way of balance is more and more to equally the extreme edges so you have only a small path for damage/tank/penetration builds. Sooner or later you will only have one viable play style with this. This is boring in my eyes.

Taonnor wrote: »

@DivineFirstYOLO Additionally i excpect a massive performance boost by changing the AoE Heals to "Group Only".You can simulate that case through the Lag Simulator with playing around the "Zone Splitting" flag. -> Myth AoE Cap

Taonnor wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

@DivineFirstYOLO Additionally i excpect a massive performance boost by changing the AoE Heals to "Group Only".You can simulate that case through the Lag Simulator with playing around the "Zone Splitting" flag. -> Myth AoE Cap

I do not expect real performance improvements by cutting heals of off not group allies. The skill will go through the same checks if somebody is in the area, in the right angle and so on, will just add a new check, if the target is in the group. Even if this check is the first in line, the other check points still need to be calculated. Also the animations will still be there visible for everyone.

That is totally wrong. Currently an AoE Heal LOS checks all friendly targets in hole Cyrodiil. Guards, friendly NPC and all players. They work same as an AoE Damage skill, where the LOS checks looks for all enemy targets in hole Cyrodiil. This is the reason why they ripped the deers.

With changing AoE Heals to Group Only the LOS checks only needs to iterate through the grouped player instances. This is a massive change in backend calculations.

PS: @Checkmath just ask @ZOS_Wrobel next time in the meeting how heals in backend works.

Taonnor wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

@DivineFirstYOLO Additionally i excpect a massive performance boost by changing the AoE Heals to "Group Only".You can simulate that case through the Lag Simulator with playing around the "Zone Splitting" flag. -> Myth AoE Cap

I do not expect real performance improvements by cutting heals of off not group allies. The skill will go through the same checks if somebody is in the area, in the right angle and so on, will just add a new check, if the target is in the group. Even if this check is the first in line, the other check points still need to be calculated. Also the animations will still be there visible for everyone.

That is totally wrong. Currently an AoE Heal LOS checks all friendly targets in hole Cyrodiil. Guards, friendly NPC and all players. They work same as an AoE Damage skill, where the LOS checks looks for all enemy targets in hole Cyrodiil. This is the reason why they ripped the deers.

With changing AoE Heals to Group Only the LOS checks only needs to iterate through the grouped player instances. This is a massive change in backend calculations.

PS: @Checkmath just ask @ZOS_Wrobel next time in the meeting how heals in backend works.

What you said, is nothing different what I said, so why do you say my statement is wrong?
Well when the group is spread, you still have to LOS check several instances. As said, it just implements one more check point before the others, where the others will only be checked for your group members instead of everything (if implemented right). Also even tough the calculations is run in the end only for your group, you still have the animation breaking more the performance than the simple calculation.
Also cutting off heals to other allies is very unfriendly for a big amount of players. I do not think such a change will be taken gladly by the playerbase.

Following your statement, aoe heals first check if a friendly target is in range. Meaning it checks everything in cyro for the distance to your aoe heal. If yes, it may get healed, if no that ally will be left out in the next check point.

Your code would add a line before that, which will just check for every ally in cyro, if its in the group or not. If yes, then it will get checked, if the ally is also in range. If not, that subject will not be checked for the distance.
Since group size can change and group members are not always in the same place, those checks will probably be coded the same way like the check if something is in range. You just added a yes-no-question before the whole line of check points, which will have to check the same amount of "individuals" as the current LOS-check.

The improvement to performance will not come from "healing can not affect allies outside your groups", but from dividing cyrodiil into smaller instances, where only the instances involved will be checked.

A LOS Check is not a simple "if" statement. There is much more effort todo. And it is a huge different if you need to do a LOS check for hundrets instances in Cyrodiil or doing only LOS checks for indexed players in a list. This is literally 2-23 LOS checks against 500++ LOS checks. And the 2-23 targeted instances are indexed, so they does not need to iterate the hole list and look if they are your group mates.

With performance im mean the performance from servers, not the client performance, which are affected by the particle effects.

Elong wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

You can't just remove battlespirit, do you know how fun it has to be when you are hitting 20k hp players with 25k DBoS crits?
It might be fun for the more experienced players but completely removing it will just scare away new players from PvP after they get 1 shot few times.

Opinion towards the rest: fine ideas, idk about removing emp, but zergs need to go, rezz timer has to be introduced, its ridiculous that you can just run in, die, get rezzed, respawn as often as you want.

But those changes are not gonna bring back all the veteran-people who left, its a bit too late now they gotta do more than just "change" Cyrodiil to bring back people who abandoned the game like a year or more ago.

That's the point, you won't have 20k health, you will be forced to make the 5k health up from other stats and build accordingly. This will have the added benefit of lowering damage as there are less damage orientated stats. The mentality of the player ignoring health as a stat will change.