I get the RP value, but being able to permanently stay in WW form would defeat the purpose of being an ultimate.

I get the RP value, but being able to permanently stay in WW form would defeat the purpose of being an ultimate.

I thought the only purpose to WW being an ultimate at all was just to lock your Ultimate to WW Transform, as once transformed you have no other Ultimate you can exploit. It's also part of the reason Werewolves have been pretty much PvP only since.... forever, locked to a set 6 abilities total (one of which is the transform itself) half of which don't really function against PvE bosses.

Considering Vampire's positives outweigh the negatives so noticeably (Vampire is extra bonuses/weaknesses on top of your build for any role, any gear combination), Werewolf shouldn't be so drastically punished comparatively (Locked to one skill bar only, with no Ultimate. Unable to tank, unable to heal. Stamina focused only. All WW's have the same 6 skills with little morph choice. No ranged combat possible).

Outside the extreme case of set-boosted crazy DPS numbers (IE Bloodmoon/Relequen PTS), would having a WW build (Salvation set change or passive/skill morph combination) that allows an endless WW form uptime be a problem? For a long time the Call of the Pack passive allowed 3-4+ Werewolves to never lose timer duration when grouped together, and I never personally heard anything mentioned of it being used outside "for the lols" all-Werewolf Trials and PvP groups that weren't particularly effective.

I can't really understand the potential problem, given right now Werewolves are considered a joke outside certain PvP uses.

But opening up WW to the possibility of tanking can add many more builds and fun things to do with the skill line. Right now the way WW currently is almost nothing has changed other than the fact we can fast attack for 40k+ with the correct gear. It seems really like it was not thought out at all.

The problem, simply put, is that will require a massive rework of Werewolf that realistically isn't going to happen. Even as purely DPS, Werewolf isn't viable in both PvP and PvE right now... many of the morphs feel useless for one and are "okay" for the other. There isn't any room to try and shove a Taunt morph, as well as other tanking tools (self-buffs for resilience, that kind of thing) into the toolkit.

Right now the "PvE" Werewolf morphs are:
- +timer pounce
- self heal and buff
- group buff that does no damage (LOL)
- Feeding Frenzy synergy
- DOT with self-heal

All the fear, stun/s and to a lesser extent off-balance do nothing in PvE to bosses (immunity) which removes a ton of WW PvE power... so we can't really tell ZOS we want viable WW PvE AND we also want tanking morphs. Simply being "usable" in PvE as the DPS role should take priority, shouldn't it?

Vampire can be Tank/Healer/DPS PvE and PvP, Werewolf can be Stamina DPS PvP and... that's kinda it right now. PvE is hurt a LOT by being a WW that keeps transforming back to a weak base character over and over during boss fights while everyone else keeps on trucking along.

Transairion wrote: »

As already mentioned by others, the Salvation set (the only WW specific set in ESO) could use a rework/buff now:

Salvation Set
LEVEL 50 CHAMPION 160
(2 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(5 items) Salvation Reduces cost of Werewolf Transformation by 33%. While in werewolf form Weapon Damage is increased by 150.

How about adding something like "taking damage adds 3 seconds to your Werewolf duration, once every 3 seconds" (the old Blood Rage effect) to this set, giving Werewolves the option to build for permanent Werewolf form by dealing and taking damage instead of just one or the other.

Or perhaps even go so far as "Increases Werewolf Timer duration by 500%" as the lone 5-peice bonus, allowing minutes of Werewolf form before the extension passives/skills are taken into effect. Not quite a toggle, but close enough to allow for world RP and so on. I can't really see the damage of "permanent Werewolf" in this manner, not with Werewolves only having 5 specific abilities to work with compared to 12 varied abilities (two Ultimates) for all other classes, Vampires included.


@ Werewolf taunt though, I am perplexed... how exactly would a Werewolf tank, let alone healer work? Even with a taunt, you'll only have 5 abilities and all the buffs Werewolves provide are damage based (no self-buffing tankiness or healing allies, only self-healing), with a taunting Werewolf only having the option to block and use the self-heal.

A WW has no ally-healing skills, so how can it be a healer? How is a WW with a working taunt any different to any DPS role using a taunt? Still can't really debuff enemies, buff allies, or survive the big hits tanks are desired for any better than any DPS of the other classes, no?

WW need some set or skill tweak to maintain maximum time in WW form.

Feanor wrote: »

I get the RP value, but being able to permanently stay in WW form would defeat the purpose of being an ultimate.

Overload says, "Hi." lol

I have played this game since launch on Xbox on and off. I have always been and will always be an above average player regardless of meta sets, buffs, nerfs, etc. I have played many classes in many ways that are both meta or non-meta/theorycrafted. Please listen to me when I suggest these very simple, and easy to implement, suggestions for further changes to the werewolf "class". So @ZOS_GinaBruno, @EveryDevOutThere

I think the changes from 4.1.0 are solid changes to begin with. Werewolf needs a taunt to play a tank roll. Since werewolf used to have a heavy attack ultimate morph and because the Pack Leader ultimate morph is somewhat lackluster, why not add to it where the initial or closest target hit with a heavy attack while using this morph is taunted for 8-10 secs (lower than other taunts because sustain restoring nature of Heavies).

Also, this patch you have essentially nerfed our weapon dmg by 30% (loss of major brutality by reasonable means and also the specialized Hircine's damage buff) now this wouldn’t mean much except those were there to serve as placeholders for the lack of executes or weapon passives. A solid idea would be to add major brutality for 10 seconds to both claws morphs since you nerfed the duration of the effect of the Anguish by 60% and because it still costs 3k stam and the other morph has weak healing (especially in PvP) and still costs 3k stam. (this way people running special pots for PvE can have the extra heal from the other healing morph and still retain consistent healing, while those in PvP can use Tri-Resto-Pots for magic sustain and still have easy access to the most essential buff in pvp like every other class.

The new blood rage passive is okay but it should be taken down to 3 seconds with a 4 second cooldown (so solo WW isn’t permanent w/o using the time-adding jump from skill morphs or devour like now) but be applied on damage done OR damage taken.

The healing howl is awesome and should stay the same (or at least the one that gives 60 percent health). The other morph should be reverted to still scale off magic (Hircine's Rage) the way it does on live but grant minor brutality as a morph effect rather than an odd 10% wep damage buff that doesn’t exist elsewhere. This keeps Pelinials builds (these have existed for years) and builds with the desire to hit higher healing numbers alive which also pleases the community on both sides.

Other than that I love the fixes and only think that werewolf needs easy access to major brutality but other than that everything is great.

*Add an effect where the total damage done to
Non player targets is 25% less because of the ease of rotation OR change the Bloodmoon set especially in reference to combinations with other sets and we are good.

Please Drop A LIKE, REPLY, OR EVEN ADD SUGGESTIONS to keep the issue train rolling!

Feanor wrote: »

The difference is you only stay there if you don’t do something. Skills are very limited as you can’t use weapon skills at all, so it’s only useful as a buff bar and when you actually attack with Overload itself.

But well, idc.

True, which is why I find it feasible that if the werewolf isn't doing anything either that the countdown bar doesn't deplete. On that same token, werewolves don't have access to weapon skills as well and their ability pool is even more limited than Overload's options.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Well, it means you should go Hircine's Fortitude now with 27k health it'll be a 9k heal. You lose 10% dmg buff for Hircine's Rage in favor of being able to use a completely different 5pc main that is non-pelinal's. I don't know how to impress upon you how this is actually a giant buff.

Hircine's Rage doesn't give a 10% buff this patch, it gives Major Brutality, which is a 20% weapon damage buff.

By switching to Hircine's Fortitude, he'd lose 30% damage vs live to get a heal that is 10% weaker. By sticking with Hircine's Rage, he'd lose 10% damage and nearly 40% of his heal. That's not including the fact that the new heal doesn't benefit from spell damage buffs like kena procs or the berserk weapon enchant. Or weapon damage buffs, which it used to do with pelenial's.

No matter which morph you choose, it is a significant nerf--not a buff.

As for not 'needing' to use pelinial's: Currently werewolves have the option of running pelinial's or other hybrid sets like shacklebreaker, and improving both their damage and survivability. With the new heal, we'll be forced to choose between either a stam dps set that neglects our heal, or a set that stacks max health at the expense of damage. This is not an improvement.

Aeschere3 wrote: »

Maybe I'm alone here, but I kinda (really) wanted some way for WW to reliably taunt, so that it would be better for PvE that way. There are probably mostly only tanky WWs in WW guilds right now, but if we could taunt it would open up a lot of possibilities.

You're definitely not alone in this. The direwolves from the Pack Leader morph do draw aggro to some extent, but it's not as reliable as an actual taunt and since you can't control their movement there's no way to position a boss with them. The big problem with giving werewolves a taunt is that we only have one bar worth of skills, so if you add a taunt to one of them we can't slot something else in it's place when not running as a tank. And you don't want a werewolf dps accidentally stealing aggro from the tank or overtaunting.

Chrlynsch wrote: »

bdado24 wrote: »

@Chrlynsch. Is pack play more viable again with the change to COP?

@bdado24 no changes to cop, though bloodrage has changed. The ability to activate synergies and resurrect allies is huge though! IMO Pack nights are gonna be better than ever.

They aren´t. Packs could stroll around indefinetely from summer 2017 to late fall 2017 when having more than 4 werewolves. It wasn´t OP (in fact, mixed groups were stronger), everyone - even the victims - loved the view, and this is the mark that won´t be reached with this patch if things stay like this.

I think Werewolves should be able to use non-weapon skills, kinda like Overload and having a second bar. The first bar would have the transform to go back into human form, and the second bar would have a WW specific ulti tied to the morph (Pack Leader o Berserker).

That would solve people wanting to tank since they can slot inner fire. And give PvE damage more viability outside of Bloodmoon/Relequen LA spam. A WW throwing a bunch of caltrops or a beast trap would require some suspension of disbelief but oh well.

SenorCrouch wrote: »

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

I think Werewolves should be able to use non-weapon skills, kinda like Overload and having a second bar. The first bar would have the transform to go back into human form, and the second bar would have a WW specific ulti tied to the morph (Pack Leader o Berserker).

That would solve people wanting to tank since they can slot inner fire. And give PvE damage more viability outside of Bloodmoon/Relequen LA spam. A WW throwing a bunch of caltrops or a beast trap would require some suspension of disbelief but oh well.

I see where you are going with this, and yeah having my werewolf cast Liquid Lightning might be a bit strange, however I think a more werewolf oriented solution to what you are proposing would be to have a larger pool of werewolf abilities to slot. In conjunction to the 5 we currently have add even more including a taunting roar, an AoE blessing from Hircine that heals allies in a targeted radius, some magicka AoE star shower from a howl to the moon. I mean the level of creativity that could be had here could make the werewolf actually fun to use.

It is so stupid, I constantly have to think about when I should use the Werewolf ult cause the duration is so terribly short and the cost is so incredibly high that I generally wind up not using it. And on the flip side I have this super fun Shooting Star build where I can just go ham on mobs and bosses by casting the Shooting Star ult on average once every 15 seconds. Why can't the werewolf ult feel that fun to use?

Uuh..!
Now I want to see three new werewolf specific skill trees with five active skills each. One for claws with an claw-themed ultimate, one for howls with an howl-themed ultimate and one for movement with the transformation ultimate. That would be a dream come true!
With that we could also have mag-based werewolfs which are fighting with their howls. Howlers!

But they should probably for now just focus on the things we have and make them all viable and fun - maybe in the future, who knows? I would pay for it!

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

I mean, what I am asking for (having WW use non weapon skills) is almost a pipe dream, designing more skills that would be WW exclusive is even more hard to achieve

Sure, a WW casting Liquid Lightning can be a bit strange, but at least WW will have a thing it sorely misses now: class identity. Aside from passives, its impossible to distinguish the a Sorcerer from a Nightblade when both are in WW form. How cool it would be if you could use Hurricane, Crit Surge, or as a DK, Wings? Each WW would have a different way to play since their toolkits intersect with their classes in a different manner. NBs have major fracture while Sorcs dont, but Sorcs have good AOE, imo it would be nice without overtuning the transformation too much.

Now that would be a highly interesting idea. Werewolf classes based upon the class your character class you have selected. I like this idea. But then again I am a proponent of almost anything the helps give us more options to this game.

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Trust me when I say, in this patch, I can run my pack from one side of cyrodiil to the other, we won't have a single issue with our timer.

How?

You can't rely on on lingering DoTs from the last fight to pause your timer while you run to the next anymore. In fact, the new version of Bloodrage won't actually pause your timer at all, just slow it to 1/5th normal. Am I missing something? Because it looks like these changes will make the timer situation worse in Cyrodiil.

You are missing something. There is a way.

Chrlynsch wrote: »

You are missing something. There is a way.

[Citation Needed]

This a PTS discussion thread, not a "make unsupported claims and then act smug and mysterious about them" thread. If you have insights about the balance and performance of these changes you should share them.

> Base Werewolf Timer is 30 seconds

> Call of the Pack reduces timer consuption by 80% with four transformed werewolves.

> Feral Pounce adds 4 seconds when fully leveled.

> The new vesrion of Bloodrage adds 4 seconds upon dealing damage, with a 5 second cooldown.

So, best case scenario: You find some straggler hanging around after capturing a resource, and manage to get your timer completely full before heading off. You now have ~1 minute to find another fight before losing form.

I don't know what it's like on the PC and PTS servers, but on XBOX Cyrodiil is not populated enough to make that viable.

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

You are missing something. There is a way.

[Citation Needed]

This a PTS discussion thread, not a "make unsupported claims and then act smug and mysterious about them" thread. If you have insights about the balance and performance of these changes you should share them.

> Base Werewolf Timer is 30 seconds

> Call of the Pack reduces timer consuption by 80% with four transformed werewolves.

> Feral Pounce adds 4 seconds when fully leveled.

> The new vesrion of Bloodrage adds 4 seconds upon dealing damage, with a 5 second cooldown.

So, best case scenario: You find some straggler hanging around after capturing a resource, and manage to get your timer completely full before heading off. You now have ~1 minute to find another fight before losing form.

I don't know what it's like on the PC and PTS servers, but on XBOX Cyrodiil is not populated enough to make that viable.

Call of the pack gives 20% timer when alone.

Now recalc all your numbers.

New passive is 0.2sec timer loss / 5sec while dealing damage.

Edit: Werewolf will loose form between two keeps, but that not the end of the world.