PTS Update 19 - Feedback Thread for Werewolf Skill Line

AmericanSpy

Thanks for giving WW the look over it desperately needed.

I think the largest remaining concern for WW is still ability costs. It appears as though these were not "aggressively" adjusted due to the WW heavy attack bonus for resource Regen, however I would prefer to see the numbers decreased even if at the cost of the heavy attack bonus. These costs truly destroy viable PVE end content roatations. Even a flat 250-500 Stam reduction across the board is helpful.

Additionally the beserker morph was untouched, the only glaring weakness I see is the loss of bleed when using HA. I believe in order to keep berserker on par with the new pack leader changes, they should gain the increase bleed damage AND apply it on HA.

For changes:

The howl syngery I feel is slightly under performing considering it locks the user into LA for 5 seconds(decent for WW, trash for any non WW group members activating it(which costs them DPS)). I wish there was an attack speed bonus attached for the duration(similar to the new blood moon set and the old WW bonus) Alternatively it could apply "5 stacks" of empower instead of duration allowing players to continue their rotations.

Roar: I did not like losing Maj Brutality from this skill. With the move to Hircines bounty we lost duration of the skill and changed it's resource pool. This should be reverted. With one roar morph applying Maj Brutality and the other Major Fracture.

Hircines Bounty: The loss of WW unique 10% wep dmg from this was pretty devastating to most of my builds costing me between 400-700 wep dmg, which is more than losing a 5 piece bonus. This I think should be reverted( OR replaced with and additional 2-7% being applied with the Savage passive (buffed from 18% to 20-25%) The change to scaling was good. I would prefer the return of the HOT rather than the additional 7% 12% of the fortitude morph.

I feel the changes that were made ultimately didn't make choosing morphs any harder. WW remains mostly a 1 morph build for most players. I feel the essence of WW is about great sacrifice for great power, but half the morphs are weak. Roar is by far the weakest at this point(the morphs not the base ability).

Thanks again,
Hircine

AmericanSpy

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

40K DPS parse on a Humanoid Skeleton. Optimized, but not completely.
https://youtu.be/-zZVQTBqC6c

I've seen and tested this as well, unfortunately if you remove either of those sets the DPS begins to fall off. Attempting any kind of rotation with this sets outside of LA spamming also kills the DPS. While that combination is pretty fun and quite viable, I think it only highlights the weakness of WW skills/morphs ATM. Having only 1 viable(competitive) DPS build is not an indication of a successful rework. ZOS still has some work to do.

Avran_Sylt

@AmericanSpy

Swapping Blood Moon for Automaton and I still get thereabouts of 42K DPS.

Average DPS parses for classes that use Relequen is roughly 40K DPS. There is an issue here.

I'm of the opinion that WW Abilities should not be of a standard weave Rotation. Instead of going cookie cutter like all the other classes, keep WW unique in that it's DPS 'rotation' mainly revolves around Light Attacks.

WW skills are there mainly to be buffs or basic mechanical necessities. (Heal, Charge, Major Brutality). Not really meant to be weaved after every light attack, but more to be "buff management".

However this makes the rotation drop-dead easy. So the min-maxed single-target DPS shouldn't be on par with other classes. (Taking into consideration that WW has virtually no cleave).

To keep WW viable in min-maxed scenarios, have it add more DPS via synergies, Ally Buffs. Which also plays along with the "Pack" mentality of WW.

In order to keep the damage roughly the same in PvP, make sure WW can also self-buff itself somewhat to reach solid numbers.

Which is why I'm still keeping the suggestion:

Lower the Overall LA and Bleed damage. (15% each)

Buff the Feeding Frenzy Synergy, either duration or number of people effected (WW offers a group more overall DPS)

Deafening Roar: Make this morph apply Off-balance instead of Ferocious Roar
Ferocious Roar: Make this morph Grant you and nearby allies Minor Berserk for a Duration

Piercing Howl: Make the base skill (and Morphs) Apply Major Fracture.
(Add in a Taunt somehow)

While the WW LA have been lowered by 15%, Minor Berserk and Major Fracture together net around a 16% damage increase. Keeping 1v1 scenarios roughly the same (but making it a slight bit more difficult).

In PvE, this reduces Overall damage, as Minor Berserk and Major Fracture are not Unique buffs, and can be provided elsewhere fairly easily.

In PvE, the Minor Berserk to allies would be a nice Group-buff in pugs where healers may not have combat prayer.

Chrlynsch

AmericanSpy wrote: »

Thanks for giving WW the look over it desperately needed.

I think the largest remaining concern for WW is still ability costs. It appears as though these were not adjusted due to the WW heavy attack bonus for resource Regen, however I would prefer to see the numbers decreased even if at the cost of the heavy attack bonus. These costs truly destroy viable PVE end content roatations. Even a flat 250-500 Stam reduction across the board is helpful.

Additionally the beserker morph was untouched, the only glaring weakness I see is the loss of bleed when using HA. I believe in order to keep berserker on par with the new pack leader changes, they should gain the increase bleed damage AND apply it on HA.

For changes:

The howl syngery I feel is slightly under performing considering it locks the user into LA for 5 seconds(decent for WW, trash for any non WW group members activating it(which costs them DPS)). I wish there was an attack speed bonus attached for the duration(similar to the new blood moon set and the old WW bonus) Alternatively it could apply "5 stacks" of empower instead of duration allowing players to continue their rotations.

Roar: I did not like losing Maj Brutality from this skill. With the move to Hircines bounty we lost duration of the skill and changed it's resource pool. This should be reverted. With one roar morph applying Maj Brutality and the other Major Fracture.

Hircines Bounty: The loss of WW unique 10% wep dmg from this was pretty devastating to most of my builds costing me between 400-700 wep dmg, which is more than losing a 5 piece bonus. This I think should be reverted( OR replaced with and additional 2-7% being applied with the Savage passive (buffed from 18% to 20-25%) The change to scaling was good. I would prefer the return of the HOT rather than the additional 7% of the fortitude morph.

I feel the changes that were made ultimately didn't make choosing morphs any harder. WW remains mostly a 1 morph build for most players. I feel the essence of WW is about great sacrifice for great power, but half the morphs are weak. Roar is by far the weakest at this point(the morphs not the base ability).

Thanks again,
Hircine

-They did reduce the cost of the howl. From 4050 to 3510
-Forititde heal is 15% more healing not 7%

ruikkarikun

Guys, what class and race are you in those videos? What is the best options for PVE WW?

Avran_Sylt

@ruikkarikun

Sorc is going to be the go-to class for PvE DPS. (5% increase in physical Damage, Implosion Execute Passive).

Orc is going to be the go-to race for DPS (4% melee damage increase, 6% Max-stam)
(Khajiit might also work, with the 8% Physical Crit increase, but it has no other DPS bonuses)

But that's only if you're a Min-Maxer focused on damage.

Addedknight

Is it anyway for werewolves to get expert hunter when they transformed due to their heightened hearing and smelling they should be able to sense invisible enemies around them

Qbiken

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@ruikkarikun

Sorc is going to be the go-to class for DPS. (5% increase in physical Damage, Implosion Execute Passive).

Orc is going to be the go-to class for DPS (4% melee damage increase, 6% Max-stam)
(Khajiit might also work, with the 8% Physical Crit increase, but it has no other DPS bonuses)

But that's only if you're a Min-Maxer focused on damage.

It might just be my experience but I never found implosion to be a good passive in PvP on werewolf. Sure it´s funny when it happens but way to inconsistent in my opinion. Would rather see a rework of implosion to be less rng.

rstas

Hello.
I play ww from beginning of the game, and in 90% only PVP. It was my main Ulti always in times when people only get smiled seeing ww in action (i always eat their faces with those smiles:)).
I like direction of ww change, I spent around 30h on PTS to check mostly everything which patch gave us.
How i feel:

+ more dynamic gameplay, new animations, new devour system, blood rage with dealing dmg=inc ww time, all of those give much more action to gameplay, u can keep ww form almost forever in pve, and mostly same in small scale pvp like IC/BG,
+ major fracture really works great with rousing roar and I got fight myself which morf to choose.
+ fixed heavy atack combo:)
+ blood moon set, and I got same feeling of Savage Werewolf didnt try it couse of bug (no set in boxes, double blood moon set instead)
+ roar instant cast, now animation canceling got sense with it:)
+ synergies and staying in pack buff


- 10% wd buff now it is gone, in most builds we are talking about 400-500wd so it is biiiiiiiiiiiiiig pain, it's like 5piece set bonus taken away, U should bring it back one way or another,
- light atack animation, I feel like they are now much more slower then before
- biggest minus for me now is no stun at all......I feel naked almost without it, it was great part of combo to stun enemy, and put as many dots/atacks as possible while he was on ground (great action vs healers), also this move killed some build/sets like Curse of Doylemish
- still no connection with cp inside Atronach and Physical weapon expert, they should aply also to LA and HA of ww
- still no new cp tree dedicated just to ww
- still no ww new skins/outfits, give us chance to make our wolfs look difrent and uniqe, new poor skin (Sable Man-Beast Skin) wont do it. Make it cost crowns, make it like outfit system or whatever, but there is so many possibilities!


- +change way of healing, I truly don't feel it's bad couse I don't run Pelinal, and my WW hp are always 25-28hp in pvp, so after I ve tested the numbers are simmilar PVE 10-11k, PVP 5-6k,

Avran_Sylt

@rstas

-Light attack seems to be the same speed as before (it might not be queuing properly though, meaning spamming is more necessary, I need to check that once the PTS is back up)
-Stun can be obtained via Off-Balance + HA from current Ferocious roar. (The WW HA might need to be looked at and tweaked though. IE making it undodgeable conal AoE)
-Physical Weapon expert I'm fairly certain effects WW LA. (unless something broke this patch for a niche weapon combination)
-No 'class' has a dedicated tree in CP. (there are general buffs that classes may take more use of than others though).

@Qbiken

I only mentioned implosion because they were asking about PvE WW. In which case it's only a net bonus.

rstas

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@rstas

-Light attack seems to be the same speed as before (it might not be queuing properly though, meaning spamming is more necessary, I need to check that once the PTS is back up)
-Stun can be obtained via Off-Balance + HA from current Ferocious roar. (The WW HA might need to be looked at and tweaked though. IE making it undodgeable conal AoE)
-Physical Weapon expert I'm fairly certain effects WW LA. (unless something broke this patch for a niche weapon combination)
-No 'class' has a dedicated tree in CP. (there are general buffs that classes may take more use of than others though).

@Qbiken

I only mentioned implosion because they were asking about PvE WW. In which case it's only a net bonus.

-yes about la it is more my feeling and what i see than real difrence (dps looks same)
-this stun yes, but i was talking about 1 hit button like we have before
-i tested 2 times, I took all, and later add all points is P.w.e, dmg of la atack was the same and should have 35% buff
-it is more my wish list:)

ruikkarikun

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@ruikkarikun

Sorc is going to be the go-to class for PvE DPS. (5% increase in physical Damage, Implosion Execute Passive).

Orc is going to be the go-to race for DPS (4% melee damage increase, 6% Max-stam)
(Khajiit might also work, with the 8% Physical Crit increase, but it has no other DPS bonuses)

But that's only if you're a Min-Maxer focused on damage.

What about redguard race?

Avran_Sylt

@ruikkarikun

That works too, the 10% max stam bonus. Redguards will have better Stam sustain as well, useful for roll-dodging.

Avran_Sylt

@rstas

Well, I checked on live and it works for it. I wonder what's up on the PTS.

TankHealz2015

Terra_Soul wrote: »

I am aware that this is my first (I think) forum post I have ever made but please at least give it a read. This is mostly PvE focused as I have little PvP experience, but I would like to share a wall of text that is my two cents regarding WW changes.

Likes:
I appreciate the new Devour overall. I find it easier to target corpses and the channel is a great QoL improvement!

Overall, the ability to resurrect others and use synergies is a much appreciated addition.

The changed animations look a ton better.

I appreciate the effort to fix bugs with the Dire Wolves. It is not perfect, but it is a great start!

6 Target fear? Sign me up!


Mixed:
The changes to the heal work better for me personally as I have managed to exist as a WW player without Pelinal's, however, I can understand arguments against it.

The changes to buff placement give me mixed feelings. We lost our minor brutality in the shift for major fracture on enemies that are feared, CC immune mobs or bosses make this pointless at times (see suggestions).

Blood Rage is an interesting change, It makes DPS WW's easier to play in dungeons, but as a solo/tank I kind of miss the time on taking damage aspect, with better usage of DOTs I can see it possibly being better the way it is on PTS but it will take some getting used to.


Dislikes:
I miss the stun on the Howl ability, why was this removed? I understand the snare/defile crackdown, but this is neither, can a dev or more experienced player give me a why?

In a similar thread, why did we lose Off Balance/Stun from Roar/Pounce?


What I would like to see:
Update to the WW skin, I personally even liked it better back in beta. It doesn't need to be the hulking WWs but an update would be nice.

I would love to see a taunt in some form. My recommendation would be a morph of the Howl ability since it lost its stun. This would allow an option for tanking while not having DPS WWs accidentally taunt via a heavy attack or something of the sort.

Major Fracture should be applied to targets on every cast, not just those that have suffered from a fear effect. Targets that got CC'd by other sources and are currently immune to CC or bosses who cant be CC'd at all should still be affected by Major Fracture in my opinion. It would give WWs a possible reason to use it in boss fights.

A change in the Warden Passives to get a little something extra in WW form would be wonderful.

Possibly a double-edged sword for being a Werewolf in the passives like a vampire. Make it so being a Werewolf means something if you don't happen to be in form/have the ability slotted. Something like moving the 15% stamina regen slot bonus and the vulnerability to poison outside of Werewolf form.

Pipe Dreams:
Toggleable Werewolf mode. I am sure people who are smarter than me can say why it is a Good/Bad/Indifferent idea.

Different Therianthropic(A term for all were-creatures) skins. Lore wise, different races turned into different were-beasts, and there were regional strains of what creature the afflicted would turn into. Bears, Boars, Crocodiles, and Lions to name a few.

A new werewolf skin that you earn by completing a new dungeon (?)

Earn multiple new werewolf skins? That would be cool... (RP rejoice)

What about a new "spiked collar" adornment that you could wear while in werewolf form --- earned by completing super-hard content in werewolf form! (!!!)

* similar to the kind of spiked collars that dogs wear when hunting wild boar...

Rmmichael95

All in all I like thew WW changes. The new animations feel great to play with.

I am worried about how taking the stun off of howl will affect PvP and it removes a lot of combos WWs use and it is very easy to counter WW burst. Also, I would have loved to see the skills damage hit when animation canceled instead of a second late like it does on live, it makes it impossible to hit a good player if they can reflect projectiles. With the increased pressure on stam to keep defile uf, it will make killing Dks or wardens very difficult although the empower on light attacks may affect this.

Would love to see ->
Blood Rage: This ability now increases the timer of your Werewolf Transformation when you deal damage or you take damage. It adds 2/4 seconds to your timer with a 4 second cooldown.
As is is difficult to stay the offensive in PvP, and this would still encourage WWs to stay in combat.

I am a fan of the healing change so far, being stuck with pelinals since it came out was limiting and I have already gotten similar healing to a medium pelinals build while opening myself to an entirely new 5 piece.

So far so good for a WW update and I am happy to see ZoS giving WW some love again.

Thraben

Aznox wrote: »

Edit: Werewolf will loose form between two keeps, but that not the end of the world.

Not the end of the world, sure, but it really gets on one´s nerves if you have to hunt NPCs and plan your route accordingly just because you want to stay a pack on the way between fights. You play a pack outside of BGs because of its RP value und fun, not because of its efficiency.

That being sad, I fear the PvE and BG werwolves are going to be overtuned - because they don´t have the troubles a real Open World PvP Werewolf has.

Cuthceol

anyone know if any fixes to thieves troves or persuade/intimidate passives not working while in WW form?

Avran_Sylt

-Remove Blood Rage

Add additional effects to the Werewolf Transformation ability morphs:
+Werewolf Berserker: Add (1/2/3/4s) to your Transformation timer when damaged (once every 5s).
+Pack Leader: Add (1/2/3/4s) to your Transformation timer when you damage an enemy (once every 5s).

(Adjust xp requirements for morph ranks if deemed necessary)

Avran_Sylt

(Pounce) Shift the AoE and Timer Increase to the Base Skill.
(Brutal Pounce) Increase AoE damage to equal Target Damage and add a 4s 30% AoE Snare
(Feral Pounce) Clear Snares and Grant Major Expedition for 4s

Aznox

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

(Pounce) Shift the AoE and Timer Increase to the Base Skill.
(Brutal Pounce) Increase AoE damage to equal Target Damage and add a 4s 30% AoE Snare
(Feral Pounce) Clear Snares and Grant Major Expedition for 4s

I like it but i'm not sure there's place for any more buff ...
At least this doesn't affect 1v1 power too much.

Avran_Sylt

@rstas

-Physical Weapon expert does appear to be working on the PTS (at least using DW while in WW)
-WW LA do not get queued when pressing light attack during Light Attack animation.
(They do not queue properly with one another)
This is likely causing it to feel slow and clunky (and should be looked at)

@Aznox

This is only a PvP/QoL buff. It does nothing to increase DPS and makes the two morphs better able to choose from.

(the absolute basic suggestion is just the Timer Increase being shifted to the base skill)

Avran_Sylt

Hugs and Kisses Animation Team!

Thanks for expanding the WW "All_Fours" animation to the Pack Leader Morph and the Base Transform!
(The toggle being sprint then release is an interesting choice, makes it feel more, intentional)

There are a few oddities with these animations though (From Foot Inverse Kinematics?) (I had it turned off in these videos)

Pack Leader

https://youtu.be/sqyFybAtGnQ

WW Berserker

https://youtu.be/6TqhROeYEZQ

AmericanSpy

Another QoL or ease of use change that I think should be made is for inactive passives when transformed:

Option 1: When Lycanthropy passive is active - Mousing over a passive that will NOT be applied in WW form, the tool tip will display an additional message *Not active during WW transformation*

Option 2: When Lycanthropy passive is active - Mousing over a passive that will NOT be applied in WW form, the tool tip will be displayed as grey'd out

I believe this will greatly increase the ease of use for new players trying werewolf builds. The only other way to determine if a passive is active while transformed is to do extensive dummy testing which greatly increases the difficulty of entry for most players.

This could also be applied to the champion system as certain champion points do not clearly state if they will continue to be applied while in form.

*What I think REALLY should happen? Don't lock out passives, it's confusing and quite frankly lazy. Balance werewolf WITH the passives.

Chrlynsch

AmericanSpy wrote: »

Another QoL or ease of use change that I think should be made is for inactive passives when transformed:

Option 1: When Lycanthropy passive is active - Mousing over a passive that will NOT be applied in WW form, the tool tip will display an additional message *Not active during WW transformation*

Option 2: When Lycanthropy passive is active - Mousing over a passive that will NOT be applied in WW form, the tool tip will be displayed as grey'd out

I believe this will greatly increase the ease of use for new players trying werewolf builds. The only other way to determine if a passive is active while transformed is to do extensive dummy testing which greatly increases the difficulty of entry for most players.

This could also be applied to the champion system as certain champion points do not clearly state if they will continue to be applied while in form.

*What I think REALLY should happen? Don't lock out passives, it's confusing and quite frankly lazy. Balance werewolf WITH the passives.

What passives are you being locked out of in particular?

Sharee

Chrlynsch wrote: »

AmericanSpy wrote: »

Another QoL or ease of use change that I think should be made is for inactive passives when transformed:

Option 1: When Lycanthropy passive is active - Mousing over a passive that will NOT be applied in WW form, the tool tip will display an additional message *Not active during WW transformation*

Option 2: When Lycanthropy passive is active - Mousing over a passive that will NOT be applied in WW form, the tool tip will be displayed as grey'd out

I believe this will greatly increase the ease of use for new players trying werewolf builds. The only other way to determine if a passive is active while transformed is to do extensive dummy testing which greatly increases the difficulty of entry for most players.

This could also be applied to the champion system as certain champion points do not clearly state if they will continue to be applied while in form.

*What I think REALLY should happen? Don't lock out passives, it's confusing and quite frankly lazy. Balance werewolf WITH the passives.

What passives are you being locked out of in particular?

For example twin blade and blunt.

AmericanSpy

@Chrlynsch

Weapon ability passives and some armor armor passives.

I understand for "lore friendly" reasons why some of these passives are blocked; from a basic player understanding though these are confusing. Players tend to either be; unaware that they are losing these passives, assuming the passives are bugged and not functioning while playing WW, or fully aware which passives are being applied and which are not.

Example (blocked):
Weapon bleeds from axes (2H or Dual Wield) no longer apply while transformed.

Example (confusing):
Champion Points: Physical Weapon Expert -Increases the damage of your Light and Heavy Attacks with two handed, one hand and shield, dual wield, and bow weapons by [x]% - This DOES affect WW transformation but is confusing as the weapon passives associated with this champion point ARE NOT in affect while transformed

Rmmichael95

Addedknight wrote: »

Is it anyway for werewolves to get expert hunter when they transformed due to their heightened hearing and smelling they should be able to sense invisible enemies around them

This reminds me of the old fear mechanic WWs had, cast time fear but if you catch a NB with it they can't stealth for a bit. NBs have been almost impossible to kill since this got removed.

I would be a fan of this change but it would have to unstealth them after a second or 2 as to not be op and require the WW to stay relatively close to the NB or they will slip into stealth again and have to be re-detected (so fast NBs and shadow image NBs have counterplay).

Chrlynsch

AmericanSpy wrote: »

@Chrlynsch

Weapon ability passives and some armor armor passives.

I understand for "lore friendly" reasons why some of these passives are blocked; from a basic player understanding though these are confusing. Players tend to either be; unaware that they are losing these passives, assuming the passives are bugged and not functioning while playing WW, or fully aware which passives are being applied and which are not.

Example (blocked):
Weapon bleeds from axes (2H or Dual Wield) no longer apply while transformed.

Example (confusing):
Champion Points: Physical Weapon Expert -Increases the damage of your Light and Heavy Attacks with two handed, one hand and shield, dual wield, and bow weapons by [x]% - This DOES affect WW transformation but is confusing as the weapon passives associated with this champion point ARE NOT in affect while transformed

Thank you for elaborating the more information ZOS has the better!

Chrlynsch

Distance for light, heavy, and claws of ______, feels way too short. In pve it isn't bad as NPCs just saunter around. In pvp it can be nearly impossible to get any of these abilies to land on other targets, if they are fast moving targets with lag between client and server. This is all compounded by the fact that werewolf has no snare of its own.

I would think upgrading range to 9m would probably help. As more and more pvprs gravitate toward swift you will feel the frustration of not being able to land an attack.