Pair of build videos - magicka nightblade - PvP sap tank, and destro/resto

NightbladeMechanics · January 2017

My goal with these is to help newer players learn theorycrafting and combat philosophy and mechanics.

First, a discussion on what it means to build around mechanics, and how doing so can yield higher performance than stacking stats or FotM 5pc bonuses, using my sap tank build as an example. I promise I don't talk for 10 minutes about mechanics without showing any.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZES4RlNrfU

And second, a discussion on making destro/resto mageblade function optimally in the current meta, and my combat philosophy with destro/resto mageblade, which I have developed over a year+ of dedicated play. I talk about a lot of sets, adapting builds for your play style, as well as specific gameplay mechanics to help you find success with the class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRWX9iG-_Ms

Also check out the gameplay videos for both builds on my channel, as well as a little magicka sorc and group play!

I try to answer all questions in Youtube comments, and I'll watch this thread as well. Thanks everyone, and I hope it all helps.

Katinas · January 2017

Whenever I see Tava combined with Bloodspawn I just facepalm

. One set benefits from being hit to gain ultimate, another from avoiding being to gain ultimate. What you end up is compromize both set's potential and get to a noman's land where you actually have less ultimate than you would if you just dodged everything and used Tava only, or if you tried to get hit as often as you can and only use Bloodspawn.
People think "Oh, so I will get ultimate when I get hit and when I avoid being hit" and that is true, but you end up with less ultimate in the end. Go test out yourself. Way less.

Brrrofski · January 2017

It makes me smile to see someone else running a saptank.

On Xbox EU I honestly have never seen anybody else using one in PvP, or PvE for that matter.

I like how you put builds together. Theory crafting is my favourite thing to do in this game. I loved putting my saptank build together. Much like you, I'll look at problems I foresee then find gear and skills to overcome that issue. My PvE one is solid. Still need to work on my PvP build. Dropping sturdy for impen is the main issue. My stam goes a lot, lot quicker. Haven't been playing it much recently, need to go back to it.

Been playing my destro resto mageblade instead. Running transmutation, Julianos and skoria on it. Really tanky and still dishes out good damage. Hitting crit resist when path procs is super nice. I was running pirate skeleton for a bit, but when you transfer it locks your skills up ad gets you killed.

Mazio · January 2017

Katinas wrote: »

Whenever I see Tava combined with Bloodspawn I just facepalm . One set benefits from being hit to gain ultimate, another from avoiding being to gain ultimate. What you end up is compromize both set's potential and get to a noman's land where you actually have less ultimate than you would if you just dodged everything and used Tava only, or if you tried to get hit as often as you can and only use Bloodspawn.
People think "Oh, so I will get ultimate when I get hit and when I avoid being hit" and that is true, but you end up with less ultimate in the end. Go test out yourself. Way less.

Not really, even with 100% up time on mirage/double take or shuffle you will still get hit plenty. There is only so much damage you can dodge, so you may as well make the damage that does get through to you count as well.

Great videos too Kena, I've use my Magblade as a Tava's based sap tank in PvP before with a decent amount of success (for me at least) but this video has really shown me how to up my game.

NightbladeMechanics · January 2017

@Mazio Glad it helped you!

And yes, Tava's + Bloodspawn is plenty effective. Tava's buff doesn't stack with itself, but it refreshes with consecutive dodges, giving you a steady stream of 3 ult per second no matter how many attacks you dodge. Bloodspawn procs with nearly 100% uptime even with dodge chance up. Running one without the other sacrifices a lot of ulti gain.

But sometimes I do replace Tava's with other useful sets for different situations. Fasalla's is my favorite substitute.

Bazeric · January 2017

Interesting stuff. Would have liked to see a few more clips of it in action since I am wondering if mist is really necessary (or maybe even path) if you where to substitute it with sap essence. I know, I know, I hate doubling up skill too, but you did seem low on magicka for a good bit of the clip. With sap also on your 2nd bar, you get heals and more chances to siphon more magicka. It might let you stay on you resto bar a sec or two longer during your shield ult... An interesting trade to consider since you kinda have mist as a flex spot, no?

Either way, it cool to see a sap tank that is completely different from mine(actually of course the skills nearly same, minus rapid regen and mist. It's your sets that are aimed completely differently from mine). Of course if I had an awesome little small group of my own to run in, I might be able to play my sap tank differently. It is rough goings with out a burst heal, but I am not set up to be able to purge.

Also, can't wait for AOE cap increase, gonna buff our sap tanks!

NightbladeMechanics · January 2017

Bazeric wrote: »

Interesting stuff. Would have liked to see a few more clips of it in action since I am wondering if mist is really necessary (or maybe even path) if you where to substitute it with sap essence. I know, I know, I hate doubling up skill too, but you did seem low on magicka for a good bit of the clip. With sap also on your 2nd bar, you get heals and more chances to siphon more magicka. It might let you stay on you resto bar a sec or two longer during your shield ult... An interesting trade to consider since you kinda have mist as a flex spot, no?

Either way, it cool to see a sap tank that is completely different from mine(actually of course the skills nearly same, minus rapid regen and mist. It's your sets that are aimed completely differently from mine). Of course if I had an awesome little small group of my own to run in, I might be able to play my sap tank differently. It is rough goings with out a burst heal, but I am not set up to be able to purge.

Also, can't wait for AOE cap increase, gonna buff our sap tanks!

I posted two sap tank gameplay videos to my channel last night, which I mentioned in the OP. Go watch them!

And no, I don't use Mist much. I use Guard in that slot 90% of the time now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y2zqQhN3Ys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnboFiFR830

BaByDontHurtMe · January 2017

Thank you for the videos and your guild laying down the law for DC. Shared with guildies, much respect to anyone still keeping up the good fight with magblades.

Metemsycosis · January 2017

Op. can you effectively use heavy armor without spinners and what do you think about rattle cage + spinners ? I'm not a big fan of alchemist since I don't wanna sit around making potions or worse buy them

NightbladeMechanics · January 2017

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Op. can you effectively use heavy armor without spinners and what do you think about rattle cage + spinners ? I'm not a big fan of alchemist since I don't wanna sit around making potions or worse buy them

Absolutely. I discuss it in the alternative sets section further along in the build video. The best heavy armor setup that doesn't use Spinner, in my opinion, is Julianos + Transmutation. If you use blue max health + magicka food instead of Witchmother's, using the two lines of regen in Trans as your sustain source, then the damage is actually the same as a Spinner + Alch build not including the Alchemist proc.

That is actually my preferred build, and it's what I ran for almost a year since Thieves Guild patch. If you run Transmutation, place 0 CP in resistant and load up on hardy and ele defender. You'll be stupid tanky and still do pretty strong damage, just not the high burst of an Alchemist build.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · March 2017

Kena, little late to the party but had a quick question for you. I recently tried sap tank and am having a blast with the survivability, damage and support I can provide for small group play and 1vX. I'm currently running 5 heavy seducer, 5 fasallas, and troll king / skoria (situational) sword and board / destro. I'm having no problems with sustain at the moment but have been running atronach mundus for more sustain.

Have you looked in to minor magicka steal from elemental drain as a viable option for sap tanking? My thoughts are adding this, dropped atro to use maybe thief and adding elemental drain for more support / sustain while obviously still using siphoning as well. What're your thoughts on minor magicka steal? Obviously if I have a magplar in my group I'd hope they're running it rendering me using it not quite necessary but can't hurt I suppose.

NightbladeMechanics · March 2017

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Kena, little late to the party but had a quick question for you. I recently tried sap tank and am having a blast with the survivability, damage and support I can provide for small group play and 1vX. I'm currently running 5 heavy seducer, 5 fasallas, and troll king / skoria (situational) sword and board / destro. I'm having no problems with sustain at the moment but have been running atronach mundus for more sustain.

Have you looked in to minor magicka steal from elemental drain as a viable option for sap tanking? My thoughts are adding this, dropped atro to use maybe thief and adding elemental drain for more support / sustain while obviously still using siphoning as well. What're your thoughts on minor magicka steal? Obviously if I have a magplar in my group I'd hope they're running it rendering me using it not quite necessary but can't hurt I suppose.

Minor Magickasteal is op as hell. You could drop Seducer and run Ele Drain honestly.

I'm uploading a ganking video to my channel right now. The footage is old, but people have been asking for it. Plus I haven't uploaded in a long time.

After that's up, an update to my sap tank build, which now uses magickasteal, will be in the works. I'll likely work on a couple other videos before it, but it's coming.

Derra · March 2017

I think you´re playing your NB like i´m playing my sorc.

Problematic only against nightblades - because cloak isn´t counterable with ranged projectiles.

The CP setup is horrible for dmg though - so much wasted potential in erosion.

thankyourat · March 2017

Derra wrote: »

I think you´re playing your NB like i´m playing my sorc.

Problematic only against nightblades - because cloak isn´t counterable with ranged projectiles.

Nightblades have mark target though. Completely shut another nightblade down lol

Derra · March 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I think you´re playing your NB like i´m playing my sorc.

Problematic only against nightblades - because cloak isn´t counterable with ranged projectiles.

Nightblades have mark target though. Completely shut another nightblade down lol

Yeah - i´ve always felt the cloak counter mechanics should all work along the lines of mark target (just not as powerful - because if we´re being honest mark is bullcrap).

Mark works as a great cloak counter but is also universally useful bc of the resi debuff. Why can´t flare be universally useful.

NightbladeMechanics · March 2017

Derra wrote: »

I think you´re playing your NB like i´m playing my sorc.

Problematic only against nightblades - because cloak isn´t counterable with ranged projectiles.

The CP setup is horrible for dmg though - so much wasted potential in erosion.

Erosion may amplify your damage much less per point than Elfborn, but remember that it amplifies both crit and noncrit attacks. It's not a bad star to put a handful of points into if you have low crit chance or are not playing around high burst combos, but it does have steep diminishing returns if you allocate too many points. You play a sorc, so naturally you'd favor Elfborn.

That said, I stopped placing CP in Erosion, Staff Expert, and Thaumaturge in favor of crit damage a couple weeks after publishing this video. I'm working on an updated build video that explains the decision, but basically I've increased my crit chance and have been focused on high burst. I go without Blessed sometimes too, but I really feel the drop in survivability when I do that. I don't have the luxury of shields.

I only started digging into the math behind the game in these last couple of patches. That's not usually how I think, so I've favored playing the game and working with mechanics and theory until lately. What specific insight do you have to shed on the math behind CP?

Edit: Oh, I forgot to reply to the other bits. Yea, I've played mageblade many different ways, but ranged caster is my favorite. Sorc isn't the only ranged caster in the game...although caster mageblade does feel like a wardless, Streakless, mineless sorc most of the time. I created my sorc last year out of frustration with mageblade actually, and I feel spoiled when I play it. lol And you have strong anti-cloak mechanics in Curse, Streak, and Boundless Storm if you play aggressively, which you should always be doing against a nightblade.

Derra · March 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I think you´re playing your NB like i´m playing my sorc.

Problematic only against nightblades - because cloak isn´t counterable with ranged projectiles.

The CP setup is horrible for dmg though - so much wasted potential in erosion.

Erosion may amplify your damage much less per point than Elfborn, but remember that it amplifies both crit and noncrit attacks. It's not a bad star to put a handful of points into if you have low crit chance or are not playing around high burst combos, but it does have steep diminishing returns if you allocate too many points. You play a sorc, so naturally you'd favor Elfborn.

That said, I stopped placing CP in Erosion, Staff Expert, and Thaumaturge in favor of crit damage a couple weeks after publishing this video. I'm working on an updated build video that explains the decision, but basically I've increased my crit chance and have been focused on high burst. I go without Blessed sometimes too, but I really feel the drop in survivability when I do that. I don't have the luxury of shields.

I only started digging into the math behind the game in these last couple of patches. That's not usually how I think, so I've favored playing the game and working with mechanics and theory until lately. What specific insight do you have to shed on the math behind CP?

Edit: Oh, I forgot to reply to the other bits. Yea, I've played mageblade many different ways, but ranged caster is my favorite. Sorc isn't the only ranged caster in the game...although caster mageblade does feel like a wardless, Streakless, mineless sorc most of the time. I created my sorc last year out of frustration with mageblade actually, and I feel spoiled when I play it. lol And you have strong anti-cloak mechanics in Curse, Streak, and Boundless Storm if you play aggressively, which you should always be doing against a nightblade.

Elfborn vs erosion is a little complicated and can´t be broken down easily sadly. Especially for nightblades as their heal from funnel can no longer crit - but their other sources of heal can.
Most people don´t figure in the defensive potential in healing criticals when looking at elfborn and thus undervalue the CP star.

I don´t think you should be playing agressively against a nightblade at all (atleast not going for melee range). Why? Well you´re showcasing the reason perfectly fine yourself. Cripple makes it futile to try in the first place while you expose yourself to Fear and tether. You don´t want to eat that at all preferably (or atleast not without warning).
Luckily there´s not many good ranged NBs running around - because if they do something well it´s countering sorcs.

I´m playing my sorc without mines most of the time. The only exception being towers in group fights.

I´m waiting to level my ep NB until they finally decide to give 2h/bow/staves two set slots. Imo any class but sorc is severely held back in terms of light armor builds because they can´t utilize sets well enough and for some reason i´m adamant on playing light.

NightbladeMechanics · March 2017

@Derra I want to see more math behind healing contributions of crit damage versus blessed or crit chance contributions. They should offer more, but I guess ZOS math isn't always clear. Regardless yea, erosion isn't good for builds with substantial crit chance and base damage.

We were talking about anti-cloak mechanics. If the nightblade relies on cloak for defense, get in its face, break it and negate his defense, obviously. Don't let him reset the fight. Playing passively against a cloaking nightblade paces the fight on their terms.

I don't know how I feel about 2h weapons granting two item slots. I've been faring fine with separate 5pc sets on my front and back bars or using vMA/Master weapons, and I kind of like that build dynamic. What if ZOS gave magicka better sets to split between their bars? That's one inequality between magicka and stamina which has always bugged me.

Edit: Also keep in mind that Swallow Soul heals based on damage done, so it does draw healing from crit damage multipliers, albeit indirectly. I fondly remember the days of Funnel giving two allies hots and double dipping in crit.. lol tTe heals were massive.