Just to address a few off base comparisons. Bolt escape has cost increase to be on par with dodge rolling. Shields and healing have no cost increase which is why cloak doesn't and rightfully so.

But shields and other class specific defenses don't have a potion that negates them entirely. There's the imbalance.

Shield breaker allows light attacks ~2k hits but only for the person wearing the set. Healing is still viable when heal reductions are applied. Just at a reduced effect. When cloak is negated/prevented all its protection is gone and everyone in the Zerg can attack freely.

Detect pots not only allow you to see cloaked NBs, but also undermines the AoE requirement to break it.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Just to address a few off base comparisons. Bolt escape has cost increase to be on par with dodge rolling. Shields and healing have no cost increase which is why cloak doesn't and rightfully so.

But shields and other class specific defenses don't have a potion that negates them entirely. There's the imbalance.

Shield breaker allows light attacks ~2k hits but only for the person wearing the set. Healing is still viable when heal reductions are applied. Just at a reduced effect. When cloak is negated/prevented all its protection is gone and everyone in the Zerg can attack freely.

Detect pots not only allow you to see cloaked NBs, but also undermines the AoE requirement to break it.

Shields are not in any way class-specific. Everyone can use shields. Light armor, Healing ward, Barrier, Brawler, Absorb Magic, Bone Shield... the list goes on. But the big thing about shields is that you still have a target. There is no comparison to invisibility where you lose your target entirely, and they get to reset the fight. Nine times out of ten, they will jump you again (with stealth bonuses no less) until they finally get lucky crits, or you lag, or are looking at your map or whatever. Shields don't let you do that. There is no comparison whatsoever.

The same situation holds for dodge roll, healing (which every single character has access to, not just templars), block, mitigation, and whatever else people use to survive. None of those things let you reset fights over and over again. None of those make you lose your target. You can't have fight with no target.

thankyourat wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Just to address a few off base comparisons. Bolt escape has cost increase to be on par with dodge rolling. Shields and healing have no cost increase which is why cloak doesn't and rightfully so.

But shields and other class specific defenses don't have a potion that negates them entirely. There's the imbalance.

Shield breaker allows light attacks ~2k hits but only for the person wearing the set. Healing is still viable when heal reductions are applied. Just at a reduced effect. When cloak is negated/prevented all its protection is gone and everyone in the Zerg can attack freely.

Detect pots not only allow you to see cloaked NBs, but also undermines the AoE requirement to break it.

Shields are not in any way class-specific. Everyone can use shields. Light armor, Healing ward, Barrier, Brawler, Absorb Magic, Bone Shield... the list goes on. But the big thing about shields is that you still have a target. There is no comparison to invisibility where you lose your target entirely, and they get to reset the fight. Nine times out of ten, they will jump you again (with stealth bonuses no less) until they finally get lucky crits, or you lag, or are looking at your map or whatever. Shields don't let you do that. There is no comparison whatsoever.

The same situation holds for dodge roll, healing (which every single character has access to, not just templars), block, mitigation, and whatever else people use to survive. None of those things let you reset fights over and over again. None of those make you lose your target. You can't have fight with no target.

Healing allows you to reset fights as do shields. If you are playing a sorc and you get low health and manage to get up all 3 damage shields the fight is reset. If you are a magplar and you go from near death to full HP in a second you just reset the fight. Cloak isn't the only thing that can reset a fight. If anything is easier for me to to stop cloak all I need to do is use an AOE ability and cloak will fail. Good luck stopping a magplar from resetting a fight. Also stealth is not class specific any class can access it. Like I said earlier I'm for detect pots, but stealth isn't as strong as you are making it seem. And the ability to lose aggro is needed on nightblades because out of all the classes they have the weakest heals and lowest defensive capabilities. Being able to make your opponent lose aggro on you makes up for it.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Just to address a few off base comparisons. Bolt escape has cost increase to be on par with dodge rolling. Shields and healing have no cost increase which is why cloak doesn't and rightfully so.

But shields and other class specific defenses don't have a potion that negates them entirely. There's the imbalance.

Shield breaker allows light attacks ~2k hits but only for the person wearing the set. Healing is still viable when heal reductions are applied. Just at a reduced effect. When cloak is negated/prevented all its protection is gone and everyone in the Zerg can attack freely.

Detect pots not only allow you to see cloaked NBs, but also undermines the AoE requirement to break it.

CloAK only loses stealth. You still get your other benefits. You still get Major armor buffs. You still get your extra health. And since we are talking about wanting to use cloak defensively, you still get the 8%damage reduction from attacks. As I have stated before in this thread, you still get the benefit of about 15% damage reduction even when not in stealth.

Having a potion to get rid of shields completely negates everything about the shield
It completely negates all defense of the ability. This does not happen with cloak.

But those are passives not the actual skill. Only the 8℅ damage reduction is part of the skill. I can get those same benefits from using fear. If the invisibility isn't granted cloak is useless. Might as well just stand your ground at that point. You are just wasting magicka pressing the button. Detect pots are really a hard counter to cloak, but how else would you fight multiple nightblades who are constantly cloaking

Healing and shields do not reset a fight. That's absurd. They never cause you to lose your target as happens with invisibility. If I heal or I shield, I do not get to jump you from invisibility at the moment I choose. You do not stop targeting me or pressuring me just because I have healed or shielded. With invis, unless you have some way to counter it, it makes the invis person effectively invincible because you cannot target them with any abilities. You could use AoE, but you'd have to know their location which you specifically don't because they're invisible! With heals and shields, you never become unable to be targeted.

The obvious counter to healing and shields is damage. You can counter healing or shielding with damage. Everyone has heals and/or shields. Every single class unless it's a totally awful build. Whether it's BoL or Rally+Vigor or Harness Magicka and Healing Ward and so on, everyone heals or shields, it's not a special feature. It's just raw damage. Every single fight comes down to a contest of damage output vs damage mitigation.

The only things I can think of that's similar to cloak is roots, which disables gap closers and can basically nullify melee abiliites, and negate. In both cases, it's obvious how to counter. With roots you can roll out, or wait, or purge them. With negate, you move out of it. But with cloak, it's just a guessing game what might counter it. You end up playing hide and go seek. Even with radiant magelight and its piddly 12m range. It's nearly impossible to fight nightblades since the homestead patch where they ostensibly "fixed" cloak.

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Just to address a few off base comparisons. Bolt escape has cost increase to be on par with dodge rolling. Shields and healing have no cost increase which is why cloak doesn't and rightfully so.

But shields and other class specific defenses don't have a potion that negates them entirely. There's the imbalance.

Shield breaker allows light attacks ~2k hits but only for the person wearing the set. Healing is still viable when heal reductions are applied. Just at a reduced effect. When cloak is negated/prevented all its protection is gone and everyone in the Zerg can attack freely.

Detect pots not only allow you to see cloaked NBs, but also undermines the AoE requirement to break it.

Shields are not in any way class-specific. Everyone can use shields. Light armor, Healing ward, Barrier, Brawler, Absorb Magic, Bone Shield... the list goes on. But the big thing about shields is that you still have a target. There is no comparison to invisibility where you lose your target entirely, and they get to reset the fight. Nine times out of ten, they will jump you again (with stealth bonuses no less) until they finally get lucky crits, or you lag, or are looking at your map or whatever. Shields don't let you do that. There is no comparison whatsoever.

The same situation holds for dodge roll, healing (which every single character has access to, not just templars), block, mitigation, and whatever else people use to survive. None of those things let you reset fights over and over again. None of those make you lose your target. You can't have fight with no target.

Healing allows you to reset fights as do shields. If you are playing a sorc and you get low health and manage to get up all 3 damage shields the fight is reset. If you are a magplar and you go from near death to full HP in a second you just reset the fight. Cloak isn't the only thing that can reset a fight. If anything is easier for me to to stop cloak all I need to do is use an AOE ability and cloak will fail. Good luck stopping a magplar from resetting a fight. Also stealth is not class specific any class can access it. Like I said earlier I'm for detect pots, but stealth isn't as strong as you are making it seem. And the ability to lose aggro is needed on nightblades because out of all the classes they have the weakest heals and lowest defensive capabilities. Being able to make your opponent lose aggro on you makes up for it.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Just to address a few off base comparisons. Bolt escape has cost increase to be on par with dodge rolling. Shields and healing have no cost increase which is why cloak doesn't and rightfully so.

But shields and other class specific defenses don't have a potion that negates them entirely. There's the imbalance.

Shield breaker allows light attacks ~2k hits but only for the person wearing the set. Healing is still viable when heal reductions are applied. Just at a reduced effect. When cloak is negated/prevented all its protection is gone and everyone in the Zerg can attack freely.

Detect pots not only allow you to see cloaked NBs, but also undermines the AoE requirement to break it.

CloAK only loses stealth. You still get your other benefits. You still get Major armor buffs. You still get your extra health. And since we are talking about wanting to use cloak defensively, you still get the 8%damage reduction from attacks. As I have stated before in this thread, you still get the benefit of about 15% damage reduction even when not in stealth.

Having a potion to get rid of shields completely negates everything about the shield
It completely negates all defense of the ability. This does not happen with cloak.

But those are passives not the actual skill. Only the 8℅ damage reduction is part of the skill. I can get those same benefits from using fear. If the invisibility isn't granted cloak is useless. Might as well just stand your ground at that point. You are just wasting magicka pressing the button. Detect pots are really a hard counter to cloak, but how else would you fight multiple nightblades who are constantly cloaking

Healing and shields does not reset a fight. That's absurd. They never cause you to lose your target as happens with invisibility. If I heal or I shield, I do not get to jump you from invisibility at the moment I choose. You do not stop targeting me or pressuring me just because I have healed or shielded. With invis, unless you have some way to counter it, it makes the invis person effectively invincible because you cannot target them with any abilities. You could use AoE, but you'd have to know their location which you specifically don't because they're invisible! With heals and shields, you never become unable to be targeted.

The obvious counter to healing and shields is damage. You can counter healing or shielding with damage. Everyone has heals and/or shields. Every single class unless it's a totally awful build. Whether it's BoL or Rally+Vigor or Harness Magicka and Healing Ward and so on, everyone heals or shields, it's not a special feature. It's just raw damage. Every single fight come down to a contest of damage output vs damage mitigation.

The only things I can think of that's similar to cloak is roots, which disables gap closers and can basically nullify melee abiliites, and negate. In both cases, it's obvious how to counter. With roots you can roll out, or wait, or purge them. With negate, you move out of it. But with cloak, it's just a guessing game what might counter it. You end up playing hide and go seek. Even with radiant magelight and it's piddly 12m range. It's nearly impossible to fight nightblades since the homestate patch where the ostensibly "fixed" cloak.

Resetting a fight means you go from being in a unfavorable position to a favorable one so you can go on the offensive. Both shields and heals accomplish this, as well as crowd control. Yes raw damage is a counter to shields and heals if you are fighting outnumbered, but if you are playing solo the only way to kill a good magsorc or magplar is to either run them out of stamina or pressure them so much that they run out of magicka. BoL and shield stack or very strong. Cloak has some benefits too. mainly that it scales very well when fighting outnumbered where shields and Templar heals do not. But cloak also has more negatives. where BoL is a guaranteed heal cloak is not always guaranteed to work and it's much easier to counter. You say it's nearly impossible to fight nightblades in the new update I have to disagree. I don't really ever have a problem with nightblades unless they are very skilled. Then it's just a really good fight at that point. But I also keep an AOE on my bar

thankyourat wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Just to address a few off base comparisons. Bolt escape has cost increase to be on par with dodge rolling. Shields and healing have no cost increase which is why cloak doesn't and rightfully so.

But shields and other class specific defenses don't have a potion that negates them entirely. There's the imbalance.

Shield breaker allows light attacks ~2k hits but only for the person wearing the set. Healing is still viable when heal reductions are applied. Just at a reduced effect. When cloak is negated/prevented all its protection is gone and everyone in the Zerg can attack freely.

Detect pots not only allow you to see cloaked NBs, but also undermines the AoE requirement to break it.

Shields are not in any way class-specific. Everyone can use shields. Light armor, Healing ward, Barrier, Brawler, Absorb Magic, Bone Shield... the list goes on. But the big thing about shields is that you still have a target. There is no comparison to invisibility where you lose your target entirely, and they get to reset the fight. Nine times out of ten, they will jump you again (with stealth bonuses no less) until they finally get lucky crits, or you lag, or are looking at your map or whatever. Shields don't let you do that. There is no comparison whatsoever.

The same situation holds for dodge roll, healing (which every single character has access to, not just templars), block, mitigation, and whatever else people use to survive. None of those things let you reset fights over and over again. None of those make you lose your target. You can't have fight with no target.

Healing allows you to reset fights as do shields. If you are playing a sorc and you get low health and manage to get up all 3 damage shields the fight is reset. If you are a magplar and you go from near death to full HP in a second you just reset the fight. Cloak isn't the only thing that can reset a fight. If anything is easier for me to to stop cloak all I need to do is use an AOE ability and cloak will fail. Good luck stopping a magplar from resetting a fight. Also stealth is not class specific any class can access it. Like I said earlier I'm for detect pots, but stealth isn't as strong as you are making it seem. And the ability to lose aggro is needed on nightblades because out of all the classes they have the weakest heals and lowest defensive capabilities. Being able to make your opponent lose aggro on you makes up for it.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Just to address a few off base comparisons. Bolt escape has cost increase to be on par with dodge rolling. Shields and healing have no cost increase which is why cloak doesn't and rightfully so.

But shields and other class specific defenses don't have a potion that negates them entirely. There's the imbalance.

Shield breaker allows light attacks ~2k hits but only for the person wearing the set. Healing is still viable when heal reductions are applied. Just at a reduced effect. When cloak is negated/prevented all its protection is gone and everyone in the Zerg can attack freely.

Detect pots not only allow you to see cloaked NBs, but also undermines the AoE requirement to break it.

CloAK only loses stealth. You still get your other benefits. You still get Major armor buffs. You still get your extra health. And since we are talking about wanting to use cloak defensively, you still get the 8%damage reduction from attacks. As I have stated before in this thread, you still get the benefit of about 15% damage reduction even when not in stealth.

Having a potion to get rid of shields completely negates everything about the shield
It completely negates all defense of the ability. This does not happen with cloak.

But those are passives not the actual skill. Only the 8℅ damage reduction is part of the skill. I can get those same benefits from using fear. If the invisibility isn't granted cloak is useless. Might as well just stand your ground at that point. You are just wasting magicka pressing the button. Detect pots are really a hard counter to cloak, but how else would you fight multiple nightblades who are constantly cloaking

You also act like it is only viable options for a nb to utilize defensivley. As you pointed out there is fear for 15% damage reduction. Plus we are only class in game with dodge chance. Plus have shades.

I don't think it's the only defensive skill I also have shadow image and double take. I just now put cloak on my bar I was either using dampen or mist form because cloak was so easily countered. But on average the nightblade class defenses aren't as strong as the other 3 classes. All of which can turtle up on defense while a nightblade can't. The nightblade class defenses are all passively tied to being offensive and debuffing your opponent. If you get forced on the defensive it's almost impossible to recover sometimes especially if you just used your shade and can't get distance away to use it again. But I like it that nightblade class defenses are tied to avoiding damage instead of tanking it. This is why nightblades are great for open world and only average for duels. But you use cloak for the invisibility. if detect pots counters that it's no point to use cloak if you know you are detected. This is why almost every magblade uses a damage shield over cloak. More times than not it's a superior defensive skill

I will take the 8% damage reduction no problem. Either I get my cloak or I get to utilize the 8% reduction. Plus knowing how to effectively use cloak goes a long way. Such as los, shade then cloak or fear then cloak etc. A fear cloak combo gives you about 30% reduction. Now your a vampire so add in vamp passives at low health.

Forgot to add:

If detect pots ONLY revealed crouching players I'd be fine with it. Because it's equal against all classes.

Countering a resource costing ability for a SINGlE class is why it's unbalance. Either make cloak immune or create new potions for all class defenses.

Minalan wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Buff Magelight and Revealing Flare! We should not have to use up our potion cooldown.

Radiant mage light is a op stealth counter though. You can't be stunned, you take 50℅ less damage and it has a 12 meter radius. The only problem is people always pick the inner light morph for more damage. Sometimes if you want to counter something you have to give up some damage.

Incap still stuns, DBoS leaves you on the ground flopping with a DOT, and RML doesn't prevent fear.

You just avoid some damage and a stun on the stealth opener. Most people survive that fine if they build for it now since proc sets can't crit.

People don't use the radiant morph because it doesn't help as much as the extra max magicka. A good NB will pop fear and incap as soon as they see their opponent survive the opener. You're stunned no matter what.

Radiant mage light is a nightblade forum warrior straw man. Nothing more.

A *** nb will use fear because it's a broken ass skill that will cc people perma even with stamina to break out, just like petrify. Incap is an ultimate get over it, dont here anyone crying about shield ulti being so cheap, giving you super defence while giving you 8s of free skill use. Magelight isnt used for just an opener. Also stops the cloak suprise attack stun combo and reduces ALL stealth damage ALL allys by 50%.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

You also forget that shields and healing are targeted in cp.

Again, you still don't lose all benefits of cloak with a detect pot. Having a potion to negate shields for instance makes the whole ability useless. You seem to keep glossing over this point.

And yes you have to look at the skill as a whole and the totality of what it offers. By using cloak you activate and additional defense buff. Obesity you get no matter what. Plus the 8% reduction. When you activate cloak you still get your other buffs and get damage reduction and therefore still operates as a defensive skill even with detect pots.

Sorts shields on the other hand being completely negated leaves it with no defensive capabilities when it is used. Completely negating all defense of a sorc. This is not true of cloak. You can't simply balance by looking at an ability in a vacuum but how that ability practically operates. Practically speaking you must look at the synergy with the passives.

I'm not sure if you're referring to me but there's nothing I've forgotten or glossed over.

The point that I've made is ***if you're cool with countering 1 class with a potion, the same should be so for all classes. ***
Nothing you've said changes that. In fact I'm not sure what point you're hoping to make repeating cloak has secondary passives.

All classes have passives. Cloak losing its primary value and retaining passives is a failing discussion. Because every other class has all their passive AND full use of their ability.

Or perhaps you don't understand shields prevent damage and crits? If 1 person had an "ignore shield" potion it would still offer protection from others. Yet using detect to break cloak allows everyone to attack.

***Refer to Main Point***

You missing my point. Not like it matters to you. Seems like you hear what you want to.